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  1. #1
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    Chinese Carbon Fatty Full Suspension Frames??

    Any good options on this or still too early in the evolution?
    Never argue with an idiot. They'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience every time.

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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomFL View Post
    Any good options on this or still too early in the evolution?
    Dude, at least read a bit before making a new thread for every question you have. Chances are it's been asked before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swerny View Post
    Dude, at least read a bit before making a new thread for every question you have. Chances are it's been asked before.
    What's the best tire?
    You change your own flats? Support your LBS and pay them to instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swerny View Post
    Dude, at least read a bit before making a new thread for every question you have. Chances are it's been asked before.
    Isn't that how forums work?

    EDIT: Interesting, This comment is different from the one I tried to comment on......maybe that's how the internet works.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swerny View Post
    Dude, at least read a bit before making a new thread for every question you have. Chances are it's been asked before.
    There is exactly ONE thread on this forum that I could find and it appears too many knuckleheads scared the poster away with their non-constructive comments, ruining it for the rest of us.

    Are you getting that funny feeling someone's talking about you?
    Never argue with an idiot. They'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience every time.

  7. #7
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    Chinese carbon full suspension fat bike

    221 posts. You're welcome

    EDIT: that link was already posted, didn't see it on my phone

    regardless, the only available info is already in that thread, should have just bumped it.
    Last edited by Swerny; 01-25-2016 at 10:24 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swerny View Post
    Chinese carbon full suspension fat bike

    221 posts. You're welcome
    Yes, thanks. I was searching for more input that just that thread but it seems that's about it. I've reached out to Peter and we've been in touch. Very interesting frame, but I'd like to speak to some people who've actually gotten them out in the woods prior to shelling out some coin.

    Sometimes the only thing you get for being a pioneer is an a** full of arrows, and sometimes everything works out better than expected. Only time will tell. I can tell you Peter seems a professional person and I believe he will ensure his customers get a good product with this frame.
    Never argue with an idiot. They'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience every time.

  9. #9
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    Several very good FS offerings from "known quantities" out there.

    If you're uncomfortable being a test dummy for some company that doesn't speak your language, on the other side of the world, it's not like there's no options.

    Heck, some even a dealer network and demo days.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Several very good FS offerings from "known quantities" out there.

    If you're uncomfortable being a test dummy for some company that doesn't speak your language, on the other side of the world, it's not like there's no options.

    Heck, some even a dealer network and demo days.
    The problem with your theory is that I've just broken a second carbon frame, total of 70 miles between the two - from a "known entity" (who is actually importing the frames from....you guessed it.... CHINA) while my two riding buddies have 10x as many miles on their "unknown entity" frames from sellers from China.

    At less than 1/4 the price, I might add.

    I have absolutely no reservations buying direct from a proven, reputable source in China and already have done so many, many times. Almost all my bikes are on China carbon wheels, and between my riding buddies there are easily 20 sets of China carbon wheels from 700c road wheels to 26, 27.5", 29" and fatty wheels, all without a single issue. And some of these guys have destroyed BIG name brand stuff in a season.

    If a brand/product is from China and has been proven, I have no reservations. I do not, however, want to toss my hat into the ring on an unproven bike FROM ANY SOURCE USA OR ABROAD without the chance to do some sort of vetting on the product, be it from other owner's reviews and/or product write-up.

    However, if the company has a strong and proven warranty policy, it would make that choice a lot easier.
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  11. #11
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    Check out a Foes Mutz or a Lenz Fatillac.

    FS is a whole different ballgame assuming you actually give a crap about ride quality/performance and not just price.

    Light, strong, cheap, pick two.

    No such thing as a free lunch.

    If cheap is the sole driver for you, best of luck, and that from someone who has no issues with Chinese hoops.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Check out a Foes Mutz or a Lenz Fatillac.

    FS is a whole different ballgame assuming you actually give a crap about ride quality/performance and not just price.

    Light, strong, cheap, pick two.

    No such thing as a free lunch.

    If cheap is the sole driver for you, best of luck, and that from someone who has no issues with Chinese hoops.
    Please go back and re-read my initial question: "Chinese Carbon FS Fatty....Any good options on this or still too early in the evolution?"

    Foes Mutz, while a cool looking bike, is Aluminum (so too is the Lenz). And it's suspension design would lead one to believe - while it is a cool bike - is simply a notch in the evolution process. Reference your above comment on ride quality/performance, etc.

    I'm looking for a carbon frame. Why?

    1) Because it's lighter. (Reference your "light/strong/cheap pick two")

    2) Because it's as strong or stonger than AL. (Reference your "light/strong/cheap pick two")

    3) And this is a big one....It's 1/3 the cost! Simply because it costs less doesn't mean it's cheap as you are alluding to. Certainly not in today's carbon bicycle market. (Reference your "light/strong/cheap pick two")

    Look, I get what message you're pushing, and I understand it as you are a bike shop. Unfortunately, the products bike shops sell are made in China. Face it, it's a fact. Bike shops are basically a re-seller of China produced product. From tires and tubes to seats to helmets to chains and brakes and hubs and frames, all China.

    As a business owner myself, I understand what bike shops are facing as they are losing market share not only to direct China sales, but also to "complete bike/direct from name brand" sales that are selling completely built top quality bikes directly to consumers and cut the LBS completely out of the deal.

    It will continue to force bike shops to evolve and progress or go out of business. A bike shop that exists mostly as just a widget re-seller will be out of business the fastest.

    For us as consumers to go direct to a reputable, longstanding China seller for our widget purchases we are simply cutting out the middle men - one of which are the bike shops - and putting the (considerable) extra $$ in our pockets for the basically same product.

    Case in point on a product we both share history with is the carbon hoops. You can buy a set of China carbon wheels on Ebay for $500 shipped that are identical to hoops that are being sold here in the USA under name brand badging for 4-6x that.

    After researching this frame issue further as well as judging by some of the PM's I've gotten here and talking directly with some of the manufacturers, to answer my own original question yes it does appear it's a just tad bit early in the evolutionary process - at least for me - to throw my hat in the rink on a Chinese Carbon FS fatbike frame. I prefer to wait until we have more feedback from boots on the pedals so to speak.

    However, it doesn't appear we're all that early to the party as some are already hitting the streets and there are more designs in the works about to hit the market as well, each perhaps a further notch up the evolutionary scale.

    Personally, I think the frames on offer now will be a success and that the sellers offering them have proven themselves as quality establishments with a strong customer service commitment.
    Never argue with an idiot. They'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience every time.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomFL View Post
    For us as consumers to go direct to a reputable, longstanding China seller for our widget purchases we are simply cutting out the middle men - one of which are the bike shops - and putting the (considerable) extra $$ in our pockets for the basically same product.
    Considering all the carbon failures out there compared to a high quality aluminum frame, I'm walking away from as strong or stronger.

    I fully get the China thing, and certainly, some stuff coming from there is good. The fact that we have the Khardashians alone, explains that not everything from the USA is great....

    With the volume of inferior, cost is the only consideration (and believe me, if you think the average QVC shopper has that mindset, wait till you deal with the Chinese manufacturers) products emerging, lack of safety standards, outright counterfeit stuff, I really doubt that many fat FS designs are really all that well thought out. I can slap a loaner wheel on a bike if I have a rim failure. If my frame, bars, seatpost, stem etc fail though, I may be a whole lot sadder.

    Yep, own a bike shop. Make $ on service. Selling goods for the most part, is a losing proposition as sadly, many consumers prefer the direct model, to putting their money back into their own communities.

    I'm by no means rich, but never quibble with paying a bit more if I can get what I need without spending hours perusing the web looking for the best price. It's only money, and coffins don't come with pockets.

    Hope your business is either in China, making stuff, or not one that sells stuff made in China, or your comment I quoted just may come back to bite you yet....
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  14. #14
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    Like everything competition is good the bike industry is no different. Considering most of the frames are build in China or Taiwan to start with there is room for a "discounted" version of these bikes.

    The bike industry FOREVER has been pushing the $2500+ price point that just does not fit for everyone. Those people will take the chance on a different route and sometimes it pays off. For me personally if the only option was the "name brand" frames I would never entertain the idea of a FS fatbike the price point is just too high for me.

    Will everyone jump to direct from China frames never but options are good.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Considering all the carbon failures out there compared to a high quality aluminum frame, I'm walking away from as strong or stronger.

    I fully get the China thing, and certainly, some stuff coming from there is good. The fact that we have the Khardashians alone, explains that not everything from the USA is great....

    With the volume of inferior, cost is the only consideration (and believe me, if you think the average QVC shopper has that mindset, wait till you deal with the Chinese manufacturers) products emerging, lack of safety standards, outright counterfeit stuff, I really doubt that many fat FS designs are really all that well thought out. I can slap a loaner wheel on a bike if I have a rim failure. If my frame, bars, seatpost, stem etc fail though, I may be a whole lot sadder.

    Yep, own a bike shop. Make $ on service. Selling goods for the most part, is a losing proposition as sadly, many consumers prefer the direct model, to putting their money back into their own communities.

    I'm by no means rich, but never quibble with paying a bit more if I can get what I need without spending hours perusing the web looking for the best price. It's only money, and coffins don't come with pockets.

    Hope your business is either in China, making stuff, or not one that sells stuff made in China, or your comment I quoted just may come back to bite you yet....
    Mendon, to lump all China cycling products or sellers in one lump sum and paint them black is akin to saying all LBS are equal and we know that's not the case. There are quality sellers, selling the same quality parts for far, far less than a LBS can sell them. Take for instance a complete 1x11 XT M8000 drivetrain (or any Shimano product for that matter). I can buy that complete drivetrain shipped to my door for ~ $375 (I know because I've done it 4x in the last 5 months). Unfortunately, an LBS can't even buy it for that and their agreement with Shimano restrict them from advertising - or selling - it at less than retail.

    Same product, same quality, 1/2 the cost (or less). No LBS.

    The trouble with being a local bike shop is that you are no longer competing local. You're competing globally. For what pans out to be pretty much the same product for the most part. Unless you really believe all the marketing hype in the magazines.

    If I walk into an LBS, how do I know what their financial stability is? Or how they truly will handle a warranty issue? You can't tell who's swimming naked until the tide goes out.

    However, anyone can go to Ebay and look at a China frame seller's length of history as a seller as well as their feedback rating and make an educated decision on a safe purchase of a hardtail frame or fork or set of wheels, etc.. Agreed a FS frame is a more complex purchase hence my posted decision to get a few more out on the trails and see the feedback. But the day is coming. Fast.

    FWIW, in 34 years as a small business owner, I've seen change. Some good, some bad. And I'm not gonna lie, some scared the sh*t outta me, I'm not gonna lie. One thing remains constant: Change.

    The internet caused incredible change in my business, at first we thought the world was going to end but as it turns out it's completely simplified my business, reduced my stress level, reduced costs and increased profit margins considerably. Additionally, it allows me to handle a good bit of my business remotely (like from a MTB trail or at a pit stop on a road ride) and at hours that I largely choose. I'm happier, healthier, and I spend more time doing what I enjoy although - like you - I'm not rich by today's standards.

    In the end, the only thing I truly sell is customer service, and some of my customers have been with me since the start. If I defined my business by the products we make/sell I'd have been out of business a decade ago, perhaps earlier.

    Look, I get the whole "support LBS" stuff probably better than most. Back in the day when I was a racer boy, I passed on factory support that I had a letter of acceptance for from a large bike manufacturer because I felt at my paltry level my exposure could make a more positive impact for my LBS so I chose that route. I pushed their shop and their image better than anyone -even the owners - and in one case I physically walked a new customer I met on a ride into their shop who wound up walking out with not one but 7 decked-out, top of the line carbon road and TT bikes for their family. That's no joke. If that wasn't a direct help to my LBS, I don't know what else would have been. However, as my education on all things bike has increased, my interest in the LBS model has waned.

    Additionally, I've bought more bikes direct/online than I ever did through my LBS, I've had what many would consider to be major warranty issues, and all have been dealt with BETTER than I ever was through my LBS. Which only further weans me off the LBS model.

    If all one sells is widgets, prepare for a long, steady decline out of your hard-won brick and mortar establishment. China or no China. You're seeing the first of the US major manufacturers (trek) going direct and if you think that will continue to be a boon for the LBS long-term, I'd wager it's not. Santa Cruz, Intense, etc., etc., all will sell you a killer, complete bike right from them and is undoubtedly why Trek is going that route and other will follow. To compete, to stay alive, or just to increase profit margins they will continue to cut costs (i.e., middlemen, like the LBS). Remember, this is a Capitalist society we're in here.

    Focusing on service might be a good option. Further, trashing good product/deals online for fear of some unknown Thor's hammer thumping us all over the head is probably not going to be a boon for any shop.

    Improvise, adapt and overcome.
    Never argue with an idiot. They'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience every time.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomFL View Post
    Mendon, to lump all China cycling products or sellers in one lump sum and paint them black is akin to saying all LBS are equal and we know that's not the case. There are quality sellers, selling the same quality parts for far, far less than a LBS can sell them. Take for instance a complete 1x11 XT M8000 drivetrain (or any Shimano product for that matter). I can buy that complete drivetrain shipped to my door for ~ $375 (I know because I've done it 4x in the last 5 months). Unfortunately, an LBS can't even buy it for that and their agreement with Shimano restrict them from advertising - or selling - it at less than retail.

    Same product, same quality, 1/2 the cost (or less). No LBS.

    The trouble with being a local bike shop is that you are no longer competing local. You're competing globally. For what pans out to be pretty much the same product for the most part. Unless you really believe all the marketing hype in the magazines.

    If I walk into an LBS, how do I know what their financial stability is? Or how they truly will handle a warranty issue? You can't tell who's swimming naked until the tide goes out.

    However, anyone can go to Ebay and look at a China frame seller's length of history as a seller as well as their feedback rating and make an educated decision on a safe purchase of a hardtail frame or fork or set of wheels, etc.. Agreed a FS frame is a more complex purchase hence my posted decision to get a few more out on the trails and see the feedback. But the day is coming. Fast.

    FWIW, in 34 years as a small business owner, I've seen change. Some good, some bad. And I'm not gonna lie, some scared the sh*t outta me, I'm not gonna lie. One thing remains constant: Change.

    The internet caused incredible change in my business, at first we thought the world was going to end but as it turns out it's completely simplified my business, reduced my stress level, reduced costs and increased profit margins considerably. Additionally, it allows me to handle a good bit of my business remotely (like from a MTB trail or at a pit stop on a road ride) and at hours that I largely choose. I'm happier, healthier, and I spend more time doing what I enjoy although - like you - I'm not rich by today's standards.

    In the end, the only thing I truly sell is customer service, and some of my customers have been with me since the start. If I defined my business by the products we make/sell I'd have been out of business a decade ago, perhaps earlier.

    Look, I get the whole "support LBS" stuff probably better than most. Back in the day when I was a racer boy, I passed on factory support that I had a letter of acceptance for from a large bike manufacturer because I felt at my paltry level my exposure could make a more positive impact for my LBS so I chose that route. I pushed their shop and their image better than anyone -even the owners - and in one case I physically walked a new customer I met on a ride into their shop who wound up walking out with not one but 7 decked-out, top of the line carbon road and TT bikes for their family. That's no joke. If that wasn't a direct help to my LBS, I don't know what else would have been. However, as my education on all things bike has increased, my interest in the LBS model has waned.

    Additionally, I've bought more bikes direct/online than I ever did through my LBS, I've had what many would consider to be major warranty issues, and all have been dealt with BETTER than I ever was through my LBS. Which only further weans me off the LBS model.

    If all one sells is widgets, prepare for a long, steady decline out of your hard-won brick and mortar establishment. China or no China. You're seeing the first of the US major manufacturers (trek) going direct and if you think that will continue to be a boon for the LBS long-term, I'd wager it's not. Santa Cruz, Intense, etc., etc., all will sell you a killer, complete bike right from them and is undoubtedly why Trek is going that route and other will follow. To compete, to stay alive, or just to increase profit margins they will continue to cut costs (i.e., middlemen, like the LBS). Remember, this is a Capitalist society we're in here.

    Focusing on service might be a good option. Further, trashing good product/deals online for fear of some unknown Thor's hammer thumping us all over the head is probably not going to be a boon for any shop.

    Improvise, adapt and overcome.
    ...Be careful what you're looking at because it might be looking back...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by duggus View Post
    Holy crap lol.

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    In addition, I wanted to add that I'M SO HAPPY THIS THREAD IS HAPPENING AGAIN.
    the only thing that makes me sad is knowing that everyone will lose interest tomorrow and I'll have to wait an entire 9 days for the next one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tfinator View Post
    In addition, I wanted to add that I'M SO HAPPY THIS THREAD IS HAPPENING AGAIN.
    the only thing that makes me sad is knowing that everyone will lose interest tomorrow and I'll have to wait an entire 9 days for the next one.
    I don't think I can wait 9 whole days.....
    Thanks Obama!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfinator View Post
    Holy crap lol.
    Tell me you don't have that song stuck in your head now
    ...Be careful what you're looking at because it might be looking back...

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    Quote Originally Posted by duggus View Post
    Tell me you don't have that song stuck in your head now
    The entire package of what that video has to offer was just... Perfect.

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    Fill that turquoise jumpsuit with foam insulation and it would be the ultimate winter riding setup!
    Latitude 61

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    Tom, you seem like a good guy, so I'll chime in and try to save this thread from flaming out.

    Mendon is also good guy, he has gone the distance making a product (Lefty) do things that no one else has been willing or able to do. Mendon has his finger on the pulse of fat biking, as do some other folks who have put their best comments forward.

    I totally get what you are looking for in a Chinese frame, but I'd warn you to think about the implications of a failed frame with zero domestic support. I don't know about you, but I only have one bike (Mutz), it's my daily driver, so if it goes down big (broken frame) I am not riding.

    A broken Mutz frame would be replaced and I'd be riding in a week, maybe two weeks. If you break a Chinese CF frame, it is anyone's guess how long it would take to get a warranty replacement, esp if they want it returned prior to warranty authorization.

    Is having domestic support worth $1000? Is it worth $1000 to know what you are getting, ie test riding, hands on?

    I guess it depends on what you want to ride.

    Good luck in this endeavor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    If you break a Chinese CF frame, it is anyone's guess how long it would take to get a warranty replacement, esp if they want it returned prior to warranty authorization.

    Is having domestic support worth $1000? Is it worth $1000 to know what you are getting, ie test riding, hands on?

    I guess it depends on what you want to ride.

    Good luck in this endeavor.
    I had this happen to me. My new carbon fat frame developed a crack at the seat stay after one ride. They wanted me to send it back without even a guarantee that they would warranty it. In fact, they told me to cut the cracked part and only mail that portion back, which inevitability required me to destroy the frame. Luckily they did warranty the frame, but It took about 1.5 months before I got the new frame from the time I first contacted them about the crack. That followed the 1.5 months it took to get the original frame after I first placed the order.

    While this new frame has held up and I enjoy riding it, I probably won't be going the Chinese frame route again.

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    Styx was like my favorite band in middle school, wow, what a bunch of long haired sissy lookin freaks "we" were

    Quote Originally Posted by tfinator View Post
    Holy crap lol.

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    I'm not sure that 375 group set delivered to your door is truly what you purchased

    If it does not pass through shimano, it never is really shimano and will no carry a warranty

    I love a deal, but bought one set of brakes off of eBay through China and the levers were reversed and the rear hose too short. Don't think shimano makes those mistakes

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    Quote Originally Posted by blidner View Post
    I'm not sure that 375 group set delivered to your door is truly what you purchased

    If it does not pass through shimano, it never is really shimano and will no carry a warranty

    I love a deal, but bought one set of brakes off of eBay through China and the levers were reversed and the rear hose too short. Don't think shimano makes those mistakes

    Actually it's likely you bought a set intended for the European market where shimano sets them up moto style which is reversed from what we are use to here in the US. That explains the reversed levers and the short hose because the right is intended for the front.

    I agree about the warranty though.

  28. #28
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    It's pretty easy to swap levers. The last two pairs of Shimano brakes I bought had the levers reversed. On the first pair I had to shorten the rear brake hose so a bleed was needed (and would have been needed even if they weren't reversed). The second pair I swapped the levers without having to bleed the brakes after. You just have to be careful in how you hold things so you don't lose oil. Even if you have to bleed them, it's pretty simple to do, and something you'll probably have to do eventually anyway.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    Styx was like my favorite band in middle school, wow, what a bunch of long haired sissy lookin freaks "we" were
    This song came out seven years before I was born, so really the entire video was... Incredible.

    I seriously don't know what you all were thinking

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfinator View Post
    I seriously don't know what you all were thinking
    I'd say good drugs, but these guys were all pretty hard core bible thumpers IIRC....

    Sadly, yes, I too, loved that band in middle and high school.

    Pieces of eight got me all into Easter Island. Interesting side note. That cover art was done by Hipgnosis, same studio that did a ton of Pink Floyds more out there cover art.

    Man do I miss cover art....
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  31. #31
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    I was never a fan of Styx, even back in the day. I recently saw a concert of theirs on Palladia and it was sad. People should know when to hang it up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    Tom, you seem like a good guy, so I'll chime in and try to save this thread from flaming out.

    Mendon is also good guy, he has gone the distance making a product (Lefty) do things that no one else has been willing or able to do. Mendon has his finger on the pulse of fat biking, as do some other folks who have put their best comments forward.

    I totally get what you are looking for in a Chinese frame, but I'd warn you to think about the implications of a failed frame with zero domestic support. I don't know about you, but I only have one bike (Mutz), it's my daily driver, so if it goes down big (broken frame) I am not riding.

    A broken Mutz frame would be replaced and I'd be riding in a week, maybe two weeks. If you break a Chinese CF frame, it is anyone's guess how long it would take to get a warranty replacement, esp if they want it returned prior to warranty authorization.

    Is having domestic support worth $1000? Is it worth $1000 to know what you are getting, ie test riding, hands on?

    I guess it depends on what you want to ride.

    Good luck in this endeavor.
    Ben, agreed. It irks me when bike shop owners publicly bash every product to come out of China in an effort to save their shop when they're doing nothing but sell China product.

    If someone wants a name brand product and is willing to pay, so be it. I have.

    In a thread titled "Chinese Carbon...." it doesn't make sense to come and bash. Move on to another thread if that's your gig.

    My $.02
    Never argue with an idiot. They'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience every time.

  33. #33
    mtbr member
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    Quote Originally Posted by blidner View Post
    I'm not sure that 375 group set delivered to your door is truly what you purchased

    If it does not pass through shimano, it never is really shimano and will no carry a warranty

    I love a deal, but bought one set of brakes off of eBay through China and the levers were reversed and the rear hose too short. Don't think shimano makes those mistakes
    You didn't buy a USA set.

    I've purchased multiple sets of these, and installed multiple others on friend's bikes. It's the real deal for a fraction of the cost. All have been perfect in every way.

    Ebay has always been a place where anyone can purchase very real Shimano product for less than bike shops can buy it for.

    Tough to argue with the warranty part of your post, but if one buys it for 1/2 to 1/3 what a LBS sells it for, what would you rather have?
    Never argue with an idiot. They'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience every time.

  34. #34
    Formerly of Kent
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    Quote Originally Posted by blidner View Post
    I'm not sure that 375 group set delivered to your door is truly what you purchased

    If it does not pass through shimano, it never is really shimano and will no carry a warranty

    I love a deal, but bought one set of brakes off of eBay through China and the levers were reversed and the rear hose too short. Don't think shimano makes those mistakes
    Uh, methinks you've never heard of the UK. Or motorsports.

    Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
    Death from Below.

  35. #35
    All Lefty's, all the time Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomFL View Post
    It irks me when bike shop owners publicly bash every product to come out of China in an effort to save their shop when they're doing nothing but sell China product.
    Oh, if you only listened to what I was saying.

    Alas, the bargain hunter who crows loudest, rarely does.

    I was answering your question, which is what I think you were after.

    Yes, it's way too soon.

    I'm speaking up in defense of your time, money, ride quality/experience, and physical well being.

    My shop will be just fine, thank you very much.....
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

    - FrostyStruthers



    www.mendoncyclesmith.com

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