Page 1 of 40 1234511 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 100 of 4000
  1. #1
    Loser
    Reputation: Jisch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,532

    Chinese Carbon fatty

    There's a huge thread over in the 29er forum about carbon Chinese 29er frames. Based on the thread it seems like they've been pretty successful, I can't say I've read all 255(!) pages, but generally people seem pretty happy with the bikes. Basically it looks like a direct sale model where the manufacturer in China sells direct to the public.

    I emailed Peter, who is quite active in the 29er forum, asking if they were considering a fat bike, he responded very quickly saying that they were in the process of making the molds for a fat bike. The 29er frames are going for about $450, if the fat bike is in that range, that's a pretty cheap carbon fat bike frame!

    I sent a follow up email asking for more details about the frames (hub width, geometry, axles). I'll post up when I get a response.

    I'm loving my FB4, every ride is so much fun, but I keep thinking about making it lighter, the weird thing is that I never even think about making my RIP9 lighter. I guess I know I have my RIP where it needs to be from a strength perspective, but the Fatty doesn't see much/any air time, I figure it can be lighter.

  2. #2
    Loser
    Reputation: Jisch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,532
    deleted
    Last edited by Jisch; 12-05-2013 at 05:31 AM.

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    163
    Salted Bikes in Aus Salted Bikes| FATbikes| Australia are selling a carbon fat bike that looks 100% the same as the Borealis Yampa, so at least one company is making and supplying carbon fat frames.

    Please press on with your enquiries, lightweight affordable carbon fat bikes cannot be that far away.

    Brian

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Jaredbe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    258
    Looks good. That bb shell looks small?

    Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
    laotzucycles.blogspot.com

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation: smithcreek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    496
    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    Salted Bikes in Aus Salted Bikes| FATbikes| Australia are selling a carbon fat bike that looks 100% the same as the Borealis Yampa,
    I took a look at pics of both and they appear to be similar (like many carbon frames) but definitely not the same. On the other hand, Salted Bikes does sell the "fork with many names" with their own name thrown on it.

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    84
    Looks like a 190mm rear spacing

  7. #7
    Loser
    Reputation: Jisch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,532
    deleted
    Last edited by Jisch; 12-05-2013 at 05:31 AM.

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Tincup69's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    492
    Very interesting.
    2016 Trek Farley 7
    2015 Specialized Fatboy Comp
    2014 Trek Fuel EX8
    2015 GT Grade 105

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    389
    Do you have any contact info for him? I'd definitely be up for one.

  10. #10
    Loser
    Reputation: Jisch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,532
    However, it sounds like the molds they are making will be based on these designs. I asked him to let me know when they are making their own to sell.

    His name is PeterQ520 on mtbr and he has his email address in all his posts (peter@xmiplay.cn).
    Last edited by Jisch; 12-05-2013 at 05:36 AM.

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    84
    The frame looks a lot like the 907 Whiteout Carbon McGrath, they both have the 12mm thru axle rear

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    9
    Has there been any mention of carbon rims from this supplier?

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    480
    many of the existing high priced carbon name brands are already "chinese carbons"

  14. #14
    Loser
    Reputation: Jisch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,532
    @speedyj: They make 29er carbon rims, it doesn't look like they do fatty rims (yet)

    @boogman: indeed, I think most carbon bikes are made in China, I was distinguishing these as being sold from China - from a Chinese company.

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation: OnThaCouch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    662

    Nice...

    Super intrigued. Subscribed.

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    39
    + Subscribed.

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    754
    About the only way I could ever afford a carbon bike of any sort is if it's one of these. I'm interested in this, and I don't even like Carbon. But these chinese carbon frames are cheap!

  18. #18
    Ride good on the internet
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    214
    Ick.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation: puchcobra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    108
    Quote Originally Posted by GoPlayOutside View Post
    The frame looks a lot like the 907 Whiteout Carbon McGrath, they both have the 12mm thru axle rear
    Yep you're right they cost $2300 pre order just for the frameChinese Carbon fatty-907-carbon-frameset-large.jpg

  20. #20
    Off the back...
    Reputation: pinkrobe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,070
    Oh yes. Yes yes yes. Rims yes, fork yes.
    @pinkrobeyyc
    #pinkrobeyyc

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation: bikefat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    313
    Quote Originally Posted by puchcobra View Post
    Yep you're right they cost $2300 pre order just for the frameClick image for larger version. 

Name:	907-carbon-frameset-large.jpg 
Views:	5944 
Size:	37.2 KB 
ID:	851607
    I think we'd have a nice conversation if you'd allow PMs, no reason for you to have negative rep except there seem to be some real *******s here. Welcome to MTBR...
    Denver Broncos: 101-3 since 1975 when scoring 30+ at home.

    C.J. Anderson career YPC = 5.67

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation: alshead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    1,580
    Subscribed and interested.
    "There are two kinds of mountain bikers in the world: those who are faster than me, and me."

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation: puchcobra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    108
    A couple guys make carbon rims NEW! Borealis CARBONdale Rims! | FAT-BIKE.COM

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    329
    Subscribed

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation: puchcobra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    108
    Hmm never noticed but he's a troll I only use links with info not spam, check out his history with the reputation thread?!?

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation: bikefat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    313
    Quote Originally Posted by puchcobra View Post
    Hmm never noticed but he's a troll I only use links with info not spam, check out his history with the reputation thread?!?
    Rep is anonymous, so I can't see what you see; i.e. I don't know what you're talking about, but clearly some here are enamored of their ability to hand out negative rep. I gave you +rep, but it doesn't count for anything as I have no "rep power" and some would apparently like to keep it that way. Personally, I only hand out +rep.
    Denver Broncos: 101-3 since 1975 when scoring 30+ at home.

    C.J. Anderson career YPC = 5.67

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation: puchcobra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    108
    Thanks on with the show more fat bike links please

  28. #28
    Team Captain
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,326
    Does the 907 mold fit Bud and Lou on clownshoes?

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation: maddslacker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    481
    I chatted with the factory rep just now. He said the frames are currently produced and being tested. Once they are fully tested they will appear on the website for sale.

    He anticipates that will be in 2-3 months.

    He declined to answer my 170mm/190mm question, and also said they cannot quote prices yet.

  30. #30
    mtbr member
    Reputation: bikefat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    313
    Quote Originally Posted by maddslacker View Post
    He declined to answer my 170mm/190mm question...
    Just curious, what question was that?
    Denver Broncos: 101-3 since 1975 when scoring 30+ at home.

    C.J. Anderson career YPC = 5.67

  31. #31
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Tincup69's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    492
    I'm going to bed dreaming about a carbon fatty with custom paint....
    2016 Trek Farley 7
    2015 Specialized Fatboy Comp
    2014 Trek Fuel EX8
    2015 GT Grade 105

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation: maddslacker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    481
    Quote Originally Posted by bikefat View Post
    Just curious, what question was that?
    You know Very well 'what question'
    Ground pressure? Any scientist out there?

    Stop being a troll.

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation: maddslacker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    481
    Quote Originally Posted by Tincup69 View Post
    I'm going to bed dreaming about a carbon fatty with custom paint....
    Paraphrased quote from The Princess Bride:
    Sleep well, and dream of large tires!

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation: bikefat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    313
    Quote Originally Posted by maddslacker View Post
    You know Very well 'what question'
    Ground pressure? Any scientist out there?

    Stop being a troll.
    Hope you were kidding, as that was a sincere question on my part, not trolling. My biggest "unknown" regarding fatbikes, is the tradeoff between 170/190 -- I'm new to fatbiking and genuinely trying to learn, hence my questions, even if they seem stupid.
    Denver Broncos: 101-3 since 1975 when scoring 30+ at home.

    C.J. Anderson career YPC = 5.67

  35. #35
    mtbr member
    Reputation: maddslacker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    481
    I simply asked him if they are offering the frame in 170mm or 190mm. He was unable to answer until their prototyping is done.

  36. #36
    mtbr member
    Reputation: bikefat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    313
    Thank you.
    Denver Broncos: 101-3 since 1975 when scoring 30+ at home.

    C.J. Anderson career YPC = 5.67

  37. #37
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Weinerts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    300
    I am just happy there will be another nice used steel or aluminum frame available to me soon as people flock to the carbon!!

    I can hear a Moonie in my Future!
    My bike is heavier than yours - it does not have Carbon or Titanium parts - I love it!

  38. #38
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    293
    Looks very good and would be awesome to see more specs/details

  39. #39
    Loser
    Reputation: Jisch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,532
    It seems strange that they can't answer the 170/190 question? I mean its one or the other, you can't easily swap between the two with a carbon mold. To me those frames in the pictures look to be 190.

    Anyway, I'm looking forward to the launch date and seeing what pricing looks like.

  40. #40
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    184
    Quote Originally Posted by willapajames View Post
    About the only way I could ever afford a carbon bike of any sort is if it's one of these. I'm interested in this, and I don't even like Carbon. But these chinese carbon frames are cheap!

    That's how I justified spending the extra to go Ti. My Grandma Estelle always told me she was "too cheap to buy twice."

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    84
    The 907 was designed around 100mm rims and 26x5" tires

  42. #42
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    163
    Hopefully this frame can take 29er+. It would be a really nice added feature and would make an terrific lightweight 29er+.

    Here's a picture of the Borealis Yampa with two bikes shown, one fat and one 29er+.



    Brian

  43. #43
    mtbr member
    Reputation: OFFcourse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    919
    Carbona!

  44. #44
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,107
    Quote Originally Posted by OFFcourse View Post
    Carbona!
    Not glue?

  45. #45
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    246
    Subscribed

  46. #46
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    86
    Subscribed

  47. #47
    mtbr member
    Reputation: trevorrr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    91

    Chinese Carbon fatty

    Hmmmm....

  48. #48
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    293
    From what I can tell, this is a link to the company web site Xiamen Iplay Sporting Goods Co.,Ltd.
    They make some very nice products, just had a quick look now

  49. #49
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Saul Lumikko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    1,801
    Quote Originally Posted by bikefat View Post
    My biggest "unknown" regarding fatbikes, is the tradeoff between 170/190.
    170 = narrower Q-factor, but 5" tires on 100 mm rims are difficult to fit without skewing chainline. (170 mm rear hubs are the symmetric version of 17.5 mm offset rear.)
    190 = wider Q-factor, but will readily accept 5" tires on 100 mm rims. (These are the symmetric version of 28 mm offset.)

    Offset (or a wider hub) means the cassette is moved to the right so the chain gets straight to the chainring without rubbing on the tire.

  50. #50
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    52
    Quote Originally Posted by Saul Lumikko View Post
    170 = narrower Q-factor, but 5" tires on 100 mm rims are difficult to fit without skewing chainline. (170 mm rear hubs are the symmetric version of 17.5 mm offset rear.)
    190 = wider Q-factor, but will readily accept 5" tires on 100 mm rims. (These are the symmetric version of 28 mm offset.)

    Offset (or a wider hub) means the cassette is moved to the right so the chain gets straight to the chainring without rubbing on the tire.
    As per the 3 other threads on this topic.... Race Face Turbine 170 and other 1x integrated ring cranks can be used and keep the same q factor and a reasonable chainline while running clownshoes 100 mm rims and bud and lou.

  51. #51
    Loser
    Reputation: Jisch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,532
    I got another email last night saying the frames would start to be available in the Jan/Feb timeframe.

  52. #52
    Oslo, Norway
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    579
    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    I took a look at pics of both and they appear to be similar (like many carbon frames) but definitely not the same. On the other hand, Salted Bikes does sell the "fork with many names" with their own name thrown on it.
    Compare the geometry charts of these frames...
    Espen Wethe
    www.kindernay.com
    (Kindernay XIV 14 speed internal gear hub with hydraulic sequential shifters)

  53. #53
    aka bOb
    Reputation: bdundee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    7,905
    Quote Originally Posted by Espen W View Post
    Compare the geometry charts of these frames...
    Looks the same geo wise!!

    From their site:
    A lot of hard work and riding has gone into the development of the Sandfly. Needless to say, we're kinda' proud of the end result.

    If it's the same frame as the Borealis, geo wise it is what a bunch of crap!!

  54. #54
    mtbr member
    Reputation: smithcreek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    496
    Quote Originally Posted by Espen W View Post
    Compare the geometry charts of these frames...
    With regards to my previous quote, in the immortal words of Willy Wonka, "Strike that, reverse it."


  55. #55
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Welnic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    874
    Quote Originally Posted by bdundee View Post
    Looks the same geo wise!!

    From their site:
    A lot of hard work and riding has gone into the development of the Sandfly. Needless to say, we're kinda' proud of the end result.

    If it's the same frame as the Borealis, geo wise it is what a bunch of crap!!
    "Someone" put in a lot of hard work and riding into the development of that frame, they just don't say who.

  56. #56
    mtbr member
    Reputation: bikefat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    313
    Hmmm... where can I get some just-like-Borealis rims for cheap?
    Denver Broncos: 101-3 since 1975 when scoring 30+ at home.

    C.J. Anderson career YPC = 5.67

  57. #57
    mtbr member
    Reputation: buckfiddious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    893
    Just gonna throw this out here, back when Trek and specialized announced that they were gonna be making fatbikes, there was a whole lot of hue and cry about how they were just aping the little guys and shoving them out of the way and were just gonna destroy fatbikes/flood the market with cheap crap and destroy fatback, 907, etc.

    But apparently, buying a chinese knock-off isn't going to destroy anything, because they're cheap and we all really want carbon fatbikes and 2k is just crazy money for a frame and and and and...

    Just sayin, them cheap frames come at a cost. And the cost is, Trek and Specialized don't give a sh!t. They can hold their own against that stuff. But Fatback and 907? Nope. They can't.

    So if y'all want a world where trek and specialized are the kings of the fatbike world, just buy all the cheap carbon fatties you can. No faster way to kill off the little guys who did all the work developing them. And when this does kill off Fatback and 907, you can just blame Trek and specialized, instead of blaming your cheap knock-off.

    my 2 cents. take it for what it's worth.

  58. #58
    aka bOb
    Reputation: bdundee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    7,905
    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    Just gonna throw this out here, back when Trek and specialized announced that they were gonna be making fatbikes, there was a whole lot of hue and cry about how they were just aping the little guys and shoving them out of the way and were just gonna destroy fatbikes/flood the market with cheap crap and destroy fatback, 907, etc.

    But apparently, buying a chinese knock-off isn't going to destroy anything, because they're cheap and we all really want carbon fatbikes and 2k is just crazy money for a frame and and and and...

    Just sayin, them cheap frames come at a cost. And the cost is, Trek and Specialized don't give a sh!t. They can hold their own against that stuff. But Fatback and 907? Nope. They can't.

    So if y'all want a world where trek and specialized are the kings of the fatbike world, just buy all the cheap carbon fatties you can. No faster way to kill off the little guys who did all the work developing them. And when this does kill off Fatback and 907, you can just blame Trek and specialized, instead of blaming your cheap knock-off.

    my 2 cents. take it for what it's worth.
    True story, well put sir!!

  59. #59
    Loser
    Reputation: Jisch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,532
    Good point bf, and I appreciate that position.

    I've got two kids in college, so funds are tight, there's no way I can afford a $2,300 frame. After riding my FB4 for a few months I find I really enjoy the fat bike experience, but would really like a lighter bike.

    I can't speak for everyone out there, but from my position if I did buy one of these bikes, I am not taking a bike purchase away from Fatback or 907. If it came down to it, if this cheap carbon fiber bike doesn't pan out, I simply will ride the FB4 and won't buy another bike right now.

    I do have pangs of guilt in thinking about these frames (and the FB4), but I don't really understand the legal ramifications of mold ownership etc. I hate to support thievery, I guess I assume that whatever they are doing is legal or it would be challenged, maybe that's naive. Like it or not, 907 and other high end bike manufacturers will have to combat the low end retailers, its a fact of life for them. Frankly I doubt anyone who is looking at a CF Beargrease would be tempted by a no-name Chinese frame, I could be wrong there, but if I had the cash, there would be a Beargrease in my shed right now.

    Regardless of those pangs, me buying one of those frames is not hurting 907 or Fatback; me having two kids in college is definitely hurting them, but that's not going to change. I dream about buying a high zoot bike at some time in my life, a no-holds-barred-full-on-blinged-out bike, but that's many years away at this point.

  60. #60
    mtbr member
    Reputation: buckfiddious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    893
    Quote Originally Posted by Jisch View Post
    Good point bf, and I appreciate that position.

    I've got two kids in college, so funds are tight, there's no way I can afford a $2,300 frame. After riding my FB4 for a few months I find I really enjoy the fat bike experience, but would really like a lighter bike.

    I can't speak for everyone out there, but from my position if I did buy one of these bikes, I am not taking a bike purchase away from Fatback or 907. If it came down to it, if this cheap carbon fiber bike doesn't pan out, I simply will ride the FB4 and won't buy another bike right now.

    I do have pangs of guilt in thinking about these frames (and the FB4), but I don't really understand the legal ramifications of mold ownership etc. I hate to support thievery, I guess I assume that whatever they are doing is legal or it would be challenged, maybe that's naive. Like it or not, 907 and other high end bike manufacturers will have to combat the low end retailers, its a fact of life for them. Frankly I doubt anyone who is looking at a CF Beargrease would be tempted by a no-name Chinese frame, I could be wrong there, but if I had the cash, there would be a Beargrease in my shed right now.

    Regardless of those pangs, me buying one of those frames is not hurting 907 or Fatback; me having two kids in college is definitely hurting them, but that's not going to change. I dream about buying a high zoot bike at some time in my life, a no-holds-barred-full-on-blinged-out bike, but that's many years away at this point.
    You can justify it any way you like. Don't make it right.

  61. #61
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Streetdoctor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,029
    preach on! I thought about chinese carbon but decided on 907. A bike that is a few lbs heavier will make my 22lb hardtail feel that much lighter in spring!
    Front Range, Colorado

  62. #62
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    163
    Of all the people in the world, you US guys should understand and support free markets.

    There are expensive 29ers, custom 29ers and cheap copy 29ers. All being produced and all being bought at the price point each customer can afford.

    Fat bikes will be just the same, best of all more and more riders will enjoy their Fat Bikes, and have to confidence to spend greater amounts on custom and specialist frames and components.

    Get real.

    Brian

  63. #63
    mtbr member
    Reputation: buckfiddious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    893
    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    Of all the people in the world, you US guys should understand and support free markets.

    There are expensive 29ers, custom 29ers and cheap copy 29ers. All being produced and all being bought at the price point each customer can afford.

    Fat bikes will be just the same, best of all more and more riders will enjoy their Fat Bikes, and have to confidence to spend greater amounts on custom and specialist frames and components.

    Get real.

    Brian
    You can justify it any way you like. Don't make it right.

  64. #64
    Loser
    Reputation: Jisch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,532
    I suppose there is justification in what I wrote, but I can guarantee I won't be buying a $2,300 frame this year.

    These frames, like the Bikesdirect bikes, are a disruptive force in the marketplace, just look at that 250 page thread over in the 29er forum.

    Sorry to have brought it up and p!ssed people off, but I thought it was an interesting option. If the group doesn't like this thread, I have no problem deleting it.

  65. #65
    mtbr member
    Reputation: maddslacker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    481
    I'm pretty happy with my sub-30 lb Fatback alloy bike. A carbon frame only sheds about 1.5 lbs, so maybe Mr 2 kids in college should cut calories for like 3 days and there's the weight savings.

    I'm kidding jisch, so don't hate me.

  66. #66
    mtbr member
    Reputation: buckfiddious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    893
    Walmart was apparently selling knockoffs of Banksy art, with Banksy's name on it.

    I guess it's OK because Banksy originals are really expensive and besides, it doesn't hurt anyone and it gets more people to appreciate art and stuff and really, who's getting harmed.

    Banksy's "Destroy Capitalism" print for sale at Walmart.

    And it's totally OK that GoldieBlox ripped off the beastie boys despite their ban on using their songs for any commercial product, ever because the song was really cute and it's for the kids and the original song was mean and really, who gets hurt, right?

    Never Mind the Lawyers, GoldieBlox Won Big in Beastie Boys Fight

    When you work on a project because you really love it (and want to get paid), pour serious money into it with the hope of getting your money back AND seeing a profit AND seeing the thing you love succeed, and then you get ripped off, let me know how you feel about it.

  67. #67
    mtbr member
    Reputation: 69tr6r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    647
    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    Of all the people in the world, you US guys should understand and support free markets.

    There are expensive 29ers, custom 29ers and cheap copy 29ers. All being produced and all being bought at the price point each customer can afford.

    Fat bikes will be just the same, best of all more and more riders will enjoy their Fat Bikes, and have to confidence to spend greater amounts on custom and specialist frames and components.

    Get real.

    Brian
    Bingo!

  68. #68
    mtbr member
    Reputation: brankulo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,421
    na, just keep the thread rolling. i have this suspicion that some people purchased fat bike recently and now begin to regret it.

  69. #69
    mtbr member
    Reputation: maddslacker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    481
    Quote Originally Posted by brankulo View Post
    na, just keep the thread rolling. i have this suspicion that some people purchased fat bike recently and now begin to regret it.
    Nope, I *just* bought the alloy Fatback and I LOVE it. Gonna ride it in the snow immediately after work today.

    Zero regrets.

  70. #70
    aka bOb
    Reputation: bdundee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    7,905
    Quote Originally Posted by brankulo View Post
    na, just keep the thread rolling. i have this suspicion that some people purchased fat bike recently and now begin to regret it.
    No buyers regret here. I don't mind people selling cheap carbon frames what I do have a problem with is companies that rip other companies designs off. I support local as much as I can and its up to each individual to make their own choices, I won't judge.

  71. #71
    Loser
    Reputation: Jisch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,532
    Quote Originally Posted by maddslacker View Post
    I'm kidding jisch, so don't hate me.
    LOL, no hate here! (BTW at my lightest in 10 years right now, so I've done my part).

  72. #72
    Loser
    Reputation: Jisch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,532
    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    Walmart was apparently selling knockoffs of Banksy art, with Banksy's name on it.
    Good points, something to ponder. Thanks!

  73. #73
    Loser
    Reputation: Jisch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,532
    If I had a nice fat bike in the shed, this thread would not be threatening nor would I be suffering buyer's remorse. I think that's important to realize with one of these bikes (much like the FB4), you're not buying a high end product, and you'll get what you pay for in some regards.

    There are definitely advantages to owning something high end, it can be as intangible as what the marketing guys tell you or as concrete as high resale value or knowing you can call someone to get help if you have issues. I totally get that and I wish I was in a position to participate in it.

  74. #74
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    163
    Ask yourself the questions

    Who paid for and trained in the use of the computer design software tools to draw and analyse the frames structure.
    Who paid for and trained to use the stress analysis software and hardware machines to test the prototypes.
    Who paid for the factory.
    Who produced the mould tools, who had the skill, who trained the staff.

    Who provided all these facilities and took risks to produce small volumes for the custom US fatbike house that marks the frames up three, four, five times.

    Why do the US small volume custom houses allow these guys to make another frame mould and sell direct. The factory could not supply just the low volume high price quantities and survive. It's called dual price marketing and is used all over the world.

    Ford Cars sell at high price to the retail sector and miles lower prices to the lease companies. It's standard marketing textbook stuff.

    As I say! just choose your price point and enjoy your Fat bike.

    Brian

  75. #75
    mtbr member
    Reputation: buckfiddious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    893
    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    Ask yourself the questions

    Who paid for and trained in the use of the computer design software tools to draw and analyse the frames structure.
    Who paid for and trained to use the stress analysis software and hardware machines to test the prototypes.
    Who paid for the factory.
    Who produced the mould tools, who had the skill, who trained the staff.

    Who provided all these facilities and took risks to produce small volumes for the custom US fatbike house that marks the frames up three, four, five times.

    Why do the US small volume custom houses allow these guys to make another frame mould and sell direct. The factory could not supply just the low volume high price quantities and survive. It's called dual price marketing and is used all over the world.

    Ford Cars sell at high price to the retail sector and miles lower prices to the lease companies. It's standard marketing textbook stuff.

    As I say! just choose your price point and enjoy your Fat bike.

    Brian
    So, by this logic I assume you own every song, movie and TV show in your inventory? Because the people who get hurt most by pirating are, by your logic, the industry that fronts bands the money for studio time, pays the promotion and distributes the music, and the artists themselves don't really matter.

    So I'm going to guess that you'd never pirate a song, movie or TV show because you'd be ripping off the system. And whether that song is performed by Nirvana or kidz bop doesn't matter at all because it's all about the pricepoint and the process of manufacture, not the creativity behind it.


    You can justify it however you like. It still doesn't make it right.

  76. #76
    mtbr member
    Reputation: buckfiddious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    893
    BTW, I'm having a really crappy day, so I'm in a really fighty mood.

  77. #77
    Loser
    Reputation: Jisch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,532
    I, for one, am enjoying reading through the responses, as long as the ideas keep flowing and there's no personal attacks, I think its a good healthy discussion.

    I am sure the bike industry will adjust in the same way the music industry has adjusted (and for the record, I am a musician (hobbyist at best) and any music/media I have in my house I paid for).

  78. #78
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    163
    I think you may have misunderstood my point, not sure but think so.

    It's actually the Chinese factory that makes all the investment, has all the technical skills to design, test and manufacture the high tec carbon frame. They make both the expensive frame for the boutique fat bike house and the medium price frame and the low cost direct frame. They make frames for all the markets so they can achieve the volume they need and the average price they need to survive.

    Piracy has nothing to do with this business model. Nothing what so ever.

    Some years back I was a windsurfer. There was only one factory in the whole world that made windsurfing sails. Every brand went there, had them design and make what they wanted and sold the sail at the price they could achieve. That one factory had all the skills to achieve what was needed.

    Brian

  79. #79
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    293
    Lets see what people think when a US company start selling a frame designed by a US company already selling that frame, fork hubs, completes etc and market it under another name when it clearly is EXACTLY the same as said company except for finish. This happens when said companies do not pay for moulds and then it is open slather. It happens worldwide and although it may not be right, it will continue to happen.
    I can buy the above mentioned frame here in Oz from a distributor if I want as well.
    I say, buy whatever suits you or meets your needs, makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside and then ride it and appreciate that you are a rider, out riding

  80. #80
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    293
    to keyhavenpotterer, I understood your point perfectly

  81. #81
    Loser
    Reputation: Jisch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,532
    Its the same with bass strings, there are only 2 or 3 string manufacturers globally, making every price variation from generic strings through the high zoot ones. You can pay $12 for a set of bass strings or $60.

  82. #82
    NMBP
    Reputation: crashtestdummy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    2,183
    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    BTW, I'm having a really crappy day, so I'm in a really fighty mood.


    You can justify it however you like. It still doesn't make it right. Had to be said.
    Riding Fat and still just as fast as I never was.

  83. #83
    Loser
    Reputation: Jisch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,532
    ^^^^ hahahaha!!!!

  84. #84
    Loser
    Reputation: Jisch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,532
    keyhavenpotterer, I did misunderstand your previous post, but now it makes sense. If I understand the emails I have received, they have private molds which they won't use to produce their direct sale frames. They are creating a new set of molds, which won't be private, and they will make their bikes from these new molds.

  85. #85
    mtbr member
    Reputation: buckfiddious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    893
    Quote Originally Posted by crashtestdummy View Post
    You can justify it however you like. It still doesn't make it right. Had to be said.
    You win the internet today, sir. Also, thanks- feeling better.

  86. #86
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Saul Lumikko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    1,801
    They are making new molds to produce their own frames. It's way different than stealing someone's art or other intellectual property.

    Here's what Surly have to say about new fatbikes being introduced: There Sure Are a Lot of Fatbikes This Year | Blog | Surly Bikes

    I think they have a really healthy attitude about competition and that's why I think they will continue to soar.

    "The other thing that I think is cool, is that each and every person out there who rides a bike (or who should be riding a bike)(which is all of you) has a type/style/brand of bike they like to ride. With more bikes to choose from, ultimately more people will have a bike they love. That’s what it’s really all about. Surly was never here to “own” the fatbike market. The very idea is kind of silly to me."

  87. #87
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    163
    It's good to talk!

  88. #88
    mtbr member
    Reputation: buckfiddious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    893
    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    I think you may have misunderstood my point, not sure but think so.

    It's actually the Chinese factory that makes all the investment, has all the technical skills to design, test and manufacture the high tec carbon frame. They make both the expensive frame for the boutique fat bike house and the medium price frame and the low cost direct frame. They make frames for all the markets so they can achieve the volume they need and the average price they need to survive.

    Piracy has nothing to do with this business model. Nothing what so ever.

    Some years back I was a windsurfer. There was only one factory in the whole world that made windsurfing sails. Every brand went there, had them design and make what they wanted and sold the sail at the price they could achieve. That one factory had all the skills to achieve what was needed.

    Brian
    I get what you're saying. I get that the chinese factory is the one doing a whole lot of the heavy lifting on this. BUT, and this is a big but, if they are just lifting the design they developed for someone else and then selling it back to the same market for 1/4 the price, that's a pretty crappy thing to do.

    I understand that they make frames for multiple price points, but undercutting your clients is something no one wants to see.

    I keep going back to music, but again, this smacks of the kind of stuff that management used to do to artists back in the bad old days- "Hey, we'll help you out, no problem, just sign here" only to discover that you no longer own your songs. THat's kind of where I was rambling earlier- who's more important in the equation- the artist or the distributor? and the answer is, they both need each other.

    Like I said, crappy day. I do see your point and if this is a mutual thing, if Borealis/fatback/907 don't care, than neither do I. Cheers.

  89. #89
    Ride good on the internet
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    214
    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    It's actually the Chinese factory that makes all the investment, has all the technical skills to design, test and manufacture the high tec carbon frame.
    Uh, the reality is that bike companies pay for all of the tooling, testing, and design on unique products like fatbikes and fat rims.

    Cheapasses buying cheap shit on the internet affects everyone, no matter how you justify it.



    FYI.

  90. #90
    oot & aboot in Colorado
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    366
    It looks like the frame pictured will not have any type of luggage mounts?

    Do any of the carbon fat bikes have the ability to mount racks?

  91. #91
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    2,509
    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    BTW, I'm having a really crappy day, so I'm in a really fighty mood.
    Someone needs a hug. Get over here, ya big lug.

  92. #92
    Living the thug life.
    Reputation: Logantri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    793
    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    I get what you're saying. I get that the chinese factory is the one doing a whole lot of the heavy lifting on this. BUT, and this is a big but, if they are just lifting the design they developed for someone else and then selling it back to the same market for 1/4 the price, that's a pretty crappy thing to do.

    I understand that they make frames for multiple price points, but undercutting your clients is something no one wants to see.

    I keep going back to music, but again, this smacks of the kind of stuff that management used to do to artists back in the bad old days- "Hey, we'll help you out, no problem, just sign here" only to discover that you no longer own your songs. THat's kind of where I was rambling earlier- who's more important in the equation- the artist or the distributor? and the answer is, they both need each other.

    Like I said, crappy day. I do see your point and if this is a mutual thing, if Borealis/fatback/907 don't care, than neither do I. Cheers.
    You're saying everything I wanted to say. Nice job.

    My other somewhat similar pet peeve is the "need" of riders to do there shopping online, but are then quickly head into the LBS when it is time to ask for schwag for a race, sponsorship, race support, etc (or see the product up close so they know what to order). Seen it first hand many times.

    It is amazing how many people will justify compromising their principles to save some money.
    I proudly ride for these guys.

    My blog.

  93. #93
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    770
    Quote Originally Posted by Pancake Adventure View Post
    Uh, the reality is that bike companies pay for all of the tooling, testing, and design on unique products like fatbikes and fat rims.

    Cheapasses buying cheap shit on the internet affects everyone, no matter how you justify it.
    FYI.
    Actually, you don't know exactly what they do unless you have spoken with someone about the exact example.

    Sometimes, the sourcing company (907, etc.) pays for the design and tooling. Usually, if this is the case, the sourcing company has full rights to the tooling and any parts that come out of it. (but not always)

    Sometimes, the manufacturer (Chinese company) pays for the design and tooling. Usually, if this is the case, the manufacturer can make and sell the parts to anyone they want. (but not always)

    Sometimes, they split the costs of the design and the tooling. This is more wide open for possibilities.

    The point is, that many possible scenarios exist and you shouldn't assume anything unless you know who spent the time and money to design and build the tooling. Not to mention the legal documents that follow and support the previous information.

    Any company outsourcing components has to deal with these issues. If they don't, then they leave themselves open to having their stuff "stolen" without a legal leg to stand on if they want to do something about it.

  94. #94
    mtbr member
    Reputation: OFFcourse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    919
    More buy from your local/small bike shop ranting, it clogs my arteries, I'm only here for the carporn ;-)

  95. #95
    mtbr member
    Reputation: jhmeathead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    178
    With carbon fat/ regular bikes being big $$$ some guys may not have the funds to ever afford something like that. Weither it be because they are taking care of their family or not much disposable income or whatever the case may be.
    Here might be a chance for that dude to buy a moto , strip it and transfer the parts for a fraction of the price. And have a nice ride he can be proud of. Who am i to judge that guy or blast him because his bike doesnt have a certain name on the downtube.
    Just because some people bring home bigger paychecks doesnt make them better or more "moral" than the other person. Yes i can see the argument it may not be right for companies to do this, but to bust the
    guy buying it, i dont necessarily agree with.

    (for the detectives yes ive posted questions on chinese frames and yes i ride a old 04 hardrock to work everyday.. Blast away)

  96. #96
    aka bOb
    Reputation: bdundee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    7,905
    We kinda have two conversations going, one is the manufacturing and buying of cheap Chinese frames and the other is Chinese companies ripping off frame designs and producing them. The later happens a lot more than people realize and wrongly labeled as a big name bike.

  97. #97
    Paper or plastic?
    Reputation: zorg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    9,061
    Maybe we can ask them to put a Huffy sticker on the frame to make it really cool.
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  98. #98
    aka bOb
    Reputation: bdundee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    7,905
    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    Maybe we can ask them to put a Huffy sticker on the frame to make it really cool.
    Oh so many fond memories, my first BMX bike.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Chinese Carbon fatty-6371836323_8ff1bb3e82_b.jpg  


  99. #99
    Living the thug life.
    Reputation: Logantri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    793
    Quote Originally Posted by jhmeathead View Post
    With carbon fat/ regular bikes being big $$$ some guys may not have the funds to ever afford something like that. Weither it be because they are taking care of their family or not much disposable income or whatever the case may be.
    Here might be a chance for that dude to buy a moto , strip it and transfer the parts for a fraction of the price. And have a nice ride he can be proud of. Who am i to judge that guy or blast him because his bike doesnt have a certain name on the downtube.
    Just because some people bring home bigger paychecks doesnt make them better or more "moral" than the other person. Yes i can see the argument it may not be right for companies to do this, but to bust the
    guy buying it, i dont necessarily agree with.

    (for the detectives yes ive posted questions on chinese frames and yes i ride a old 04 hardrock to work everyday.. Blast away)
    I don't know if the "Chinese Frames" are illegally copied and what not, but if they are, then anyone buying it is supporting the activity. It can be justified away, but it is still supporting the activity.
    I proudly ride for these guys.

    My blog.

  100. #100
    Loser
    Reputation: Jisch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,532
    I don't think anyone knows the true nature of the relationship between any particular manufacturer in China and the North American sellers. I suppose we can just as easily assume there is some kind of stealing going on as we can assume that everything is working the way the two companies want them to work. I'm going to make the latter assumption.

    I'll wait and see what the pricing looks like.

Page 1 of 40 1234511 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Sette Razzo Carbon vs Chinese Direct Carbon
    By bank5 in forum 29er Bikes
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 05-28-2015, 12:07 PM
  2. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 01-31-2013, 05:17 PM
  3. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 12-11-2012, 10:10 PM
  4. Chinese Carbon FS vs GT Zaskar 100 9er Carbon
    By Perfect Gentleman in forum 29er Bikes
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 03-08-2012, 06:45 AM
  5. not just a chinese carbon frame, but 90% chinese!
    By menusk in forum Bike and Frame discussion
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 06-22-2011, 01:53 PM

Members who have read this thread: 304

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •