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  1. #201
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    Clint: rep sent. Definitely don't agree with beer comment, but you're right on the money with the rest!
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  2. #202
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    Yep, we are ordering some carbon frames. They told me Feb. as well. Now the next thing we need is a simple parts group to go with it.

  3. #203
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    Just a question.....how many of you drive a Honda, Kia, Hyundai, Toyota or a Suzuki? Not saying anything is right or wrong about it, but just trying to understand the logic of some of the responses. Please don't take it the wrong way. By the Way I have a Jeep, a Ford, and a Subaru. And I'm pretty ok with my logic on these companies.

    As for Bikes I have the following:
    Lynskey - Made in USA
    Surly Moonlander- Made in Taiwan
    Cannondale SuperSix- Made in China

    But this is what I understand about some of these companies.

    Some might be the same factory that manufacturers say Specialized stuff, or Cannondale, or whatever, however like say a steel fab plant here in the US. Specialized and Cannondale are basically customers of their Carbon Fab plant. So in essence they have their own RD people who may work on the US company stuff, but also develop their own stuff, and manufacture it when the orders are slow or fulfilled for their customers. They then kill the overhead by eliminating the middle man, and basically sell direct. Kinda like going to an Amish farm and buying their products be it a shed, or some shoe fly pie.

    So, would I substitute a China Frame for a Pivot, Trek, Intense, or other frame? Probably not, solely due the the CS that you get from these companies. You break a China Bike, then you're shipping it across the ocean, you break on of the normal US bought bikes, you take it to the LBS and normally you'll get to speak to someone about the issue.

    Adversly IMO, the price of the China Direct frame is a fraction of the cost of say a Trek Carbon Frame, so I guess if you're willing to possibly eat the cost or have limited CS for your China Frame, then so be it.

    For example, my first 29er was a Sette....Awesome Awesome Awesome bike, but ya know I wasn't quite sure I was going to like a 29er, and I wasn't willing to fork out twice the money for half the spec on a big name bike, that I may not even like. So I used Sette to light my desire to ride big wheels, and now as stated above I ride a Lynskey.

    I think that explains my view on it, basically these companies only open the door to the normal companies or smaller companies. We all want that super top end bike, but we need to build up to it.
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  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raidthefridgeguy View Post
    Yep, we are ordering some carbon frames. They told me Feb. as well. Now the next thing we need is a simple parts group to go with it.
    Are there prices and specs available?
    "There are two kinds of mountain bikers in the world: those who are faster than me, and me."

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by vack View Post
    So, would I substitute a China Frame for a Pivot, Trek, Intense, or other frame? Probably not, solely due the the CS that you get from these companies. You break a China Bike, then you're shipping it across the ocean, you break on of the normal US bought bikes, you take it to the LBS and normally you'll get to speak to someone about the issue.

    Adversly IMO, the price of the China Direct frame is a fraction of the cost of say a Trek Carbon Frame, so I guess if you're willing to possibly eat the cost or have limited CS for your China Frame, then so be it.
    Here's the solution to the "warranty quandry"...

    Buy two of them at once. Then you have an instant replacement should something go wrong and you don't have to worry about shipping/dealing with the plant, etc. The cost of the second frame will be well below what you're paying all the middlemen if you order the premium-branded frame.

    The irony in a lot of bicycle discussions is that the only riders who truly need the bleeding edge of technology/weight savings/expensive features to be competitive never buy a bike themselves. For the rest of us mere mortals, the frame's major purpose is to keep all the parts on a bike in good spatial alignment. It's a rigid truss with a certain transfer function to incoming vibration and loads. Basic, basic basic engineered structure. The joke's on us that we pay so much money for such a simple item, most of the time.

  6. #206
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    Chinese Carbon fatty

    I took a chance on a set of Light Bicycle rims for my Pivot-the customer service was great, shipping was fast and the product was good. I was a little worried at first, but if do business with them again. Im in for a frame.

  7. #207
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    Subscribed Just because my birthday is in February

  8. #208
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    On a serious note would carbon become substantially more brittle in the sub zero temperatures these bikes are primarily designed to be used in (mud and sand excepted)

    I have had some seriously large rocks (circa house brick sized 3-5lb) bounce off my carbon On-One 456 in the summer and the frame just flexed and shrugged them off .

    Would this be the case with a frozen carbon frame ?

  9. #209
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    Fat Biker - as aeroplanes, skis and ice hockey sticks can all use CF - I doubt a few degrees C will cause any harm.

    On the upside my DIY CF frame lets me lick it's top tube without my tongue sticking ;-)

  10. #210
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    Fat Biker - I talked with Aaron of Blonde Fabrications about this concern. The frames he made were constructed with an epoxy he specifically searched for that had tested within desired parameters to (I believe) -60 F.

    So: a proper epoxy exists.

    I'd hope that any given carbon manufacturer is employing carbon prepreg with a proper epoxy. Whether they actually are - something worth asking.
    Disclaimer: I run Regular Cycles (as of 2016). As a profiteer of the bicycle industry, I am not to be taken very seriously.

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clydesdale Clint View Post
    Here's the solution to the "warranty quandry"...

    Buy two of them at once...
    Solution!

    In many ways modern bike production is very like it was in the UK from the 1900s to 1950s. There were a few big actual manufacturers who made almost all their own components (eg Raleigh compared to Giant now) and everyone else bought in all the parts and basically assembled their bikes and stuck their brand on it. Even handbuilt frames were built from the same components as the next brand, ie lugs bought in, tubes bought in.

    The general public bought from the big manufacturers. The sporting public usually bought from the individual brands where they could specify exactly what they wanted, but really their bikes were different in only very small details from those of another small brand. This is why there was such an obsession with hand carved lugs, or curly stays.

    Men like Jack Lauterwasser could build an all steel bike with common off the shelf parts that weighed 17 1/2lbs in 1930 - it was his removal of excess metal that made the difference. The difference these days is that small brands are mainly just assemblers of completely bought in bike parts with no actual engineering input. PR seems to be the main input now.

    It seems to me that what the Chinese C/F manufacturers bring to the table is the ability to engineer and manufacture the frames and what is contributed by the brand are really small details of design much like the 1900s to 1950s, ie most of the intellectual property of the frames is Chinese, and surely if there is any IP belonging to the importer it should be protected by being registered?
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
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  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey View Post
    Fat Biker - as aeroplanes, skis and ice hockey sticks can all use CF - I doubt a few degrees C will cause any harm.
    D'oH ! Never thought of that side of things

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey View Post
    On the upside my DIY CF frame lets me lick it's top tube without my tongue sticking ;-)
    Don't keep us in suspense Stuey what does it taste of ? Please tell us it's licorice ??????

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Diller View Post
    Fat Biker - I talked with Aaron of Blonde Fabrications about this concern. The frames he made were constructed with an epoxy he specifically searched for that had tested within desired parameters to (I believe) -60 F.

    So: a proper epoxy exists.

    I'd hope that any given carbon manufacturer is employing carbon prepreg with a proper epoxy. Whether they actually are - something worth asking.
    Thanks Drew now I don't feel quite soooo dumb LOL

  13. #213
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    Sorry, I don't feel bad one bit buying a chinese carbon frame or bike. I have multiple buddies running light-bicycle rims, an nancy over there has been nothing but responsive to EVERY question or request. Also i know a few guys running the cheap chinese 29er hardtails as their main bike and have put well over a 1000 miles of hard rocky rooty singletrack. Then I look at a brand like "niner" an know someone that has broken 3 frames!
    I personally own, an Ibis ripley, an intense carbine, and just sold a mojo HD, and I also had a felt nine carbon hardtail earlier this year. So I've been on a carbon bike for 3+ years and have paid premium for the frames but a fat bike for me will never be anything more than a quiver bike that gets used half a dozen times when conditions allow in the winter so therefore the chinese carbon really appeals to me. I wouldn't buy a 6" suspension chinese carbon knockoff an have confidence to hit freeride lines, but a fatbike in snow? Please....
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  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by manchvegas View Post
    Sorry, I don't feel bad one bit buying a chinese carbon frame or bike. I have multiple buddies running light-bicycle rims, an nancy over there has been nothing but responsive to EVERY question or request. Also i know a few guys running the cheap chinese 29er hardtails as their main bike and have put well over a 1000 miles of hard rocky rooty singletrack. Then I look at a brand like "niner" an know someone that has broken 3 frames!
    I personally own, an Ibis ripley, an intense carbine, and just sold a mojo HD, and I also had a felt nine carbon hardtail earlier this year. So I've been on a carbon bike for 3+ years and have paid premium for the frames but a fat bike for me will never be anything more than a quiver bike that gets used half a dozen times when conditions allow in the winter so therefore the chinese carbon really appeals to me. I wouldn't buy a 6" suspension chinese carbon knockoff an have confidence to hit freeride lines, but a fatbike in snow? Please....
    +1….same boat here

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by manchvegas View Post
    A fat bike for me will never be anything more than a quiver bike that gets used half a dozen times when conditions allow in the winter
    I call BS!

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfdog93 View Post
    +1….same boat here
    +2 Bust out the fatty when there's not enough snow for pow but too much to ride dirt...
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  17. #217
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    yeah, maybe I'll ride it more than I think.. but with the bikes I already have, I highly doubt it seeing the light of day other than in the snow...
    Full time rider part time racer...

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  18. #218
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    +3
    totaly agree

  19. #219
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    also, emailed peter from xmiplay and he did confirm again they are working on a fatty frame..

    Thanks for your inquiry!



    Yes, we are doing fatbike frame mould now, I think the sample will be available at the end of Jan 2014 or Feb 2014



    Best Regards,

    Peter

    I've also emailed him back if he has any info on geo, axle spacing an possible ball park pricing.. I also reached out to Nancy at Light-bicycle an she didn't seem to know. And just a side note as well.. as far as everyone saying you get what you pay for, customer service etc... I have to say these Chinese carbon people answer my emails faster than any US company I've bought a bike from, except for maybe ibis and intense. So the argument that you get no customer service is bull..
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  20. #220
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    i asked him same about 2 weeks ago. he would not give any details. but i agree, only bike company that answers your emails quicker is ibis. i also asked light bicycle and nextie on fat bike frame development, both responded that they will evaluate their plans for future products after new year.

  21. #221
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    Seen a Carbon BG yesterday. As stated before, here is that seam that I had questions about. The same seam is on the downtube as well. Those of you more carbon savy than me should chime in.

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  22. #222
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    vack it is possible that is a co-molded seam, and the front triangle can be thought of as two halves joined down the middle along the bike's length from a bird's eye view.

    Keep in mind that while I don't like the idea, I'm not an expert, and I have seen only one failure involving a frame that was constructed the same, a Trek Superfly. And it didn't break, the owner saw some slight delamination and stopped riding it, a repairable condition.
    Disclaimer: I run Regular Cycles (as of 2016). As a profiteer of the bicycle industry, I am not to be taken very seriously.

  23. #223
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    Drew, I have no idea, but that makes sense.
    I have one Carbon Bike, a Cannondale SuperSix, and I was just out in the garage trying to find a seam....I could not. I'm not sure if that's because these BG's are raw and my Supersix is painted, I don't know.

    But I too seen a Superfly fail on the top tube, not mine but a friend, the tube near the seat tube turned to mush and it failed at that seam.
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  24. #224
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    Lamere fat frame and fork on sale at $1400 for the next week: Lamere Cycles Introduces Factory Direct Carbon Fatbike Frame and Fork
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  25. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkrobe View Post
    Lamere fat frame and fork on sale at $1400 for the next week: Lamere Cycles Introduces Factory Direct Carbon Fatbike Frame and Fork
    So buying from the middleman is considered factory direct now? I guess that makes Fatback, 907 and Borealis factory direct too.

  26. #226
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    If the Chinese frames are exactly the same as those imported by domestic companies, what then is a "knockoff" other than TM infringement regarding decals? I'm assuming the bike pictured came out of the same mold as the "legit" frames:

    Mike Sinyard?s Open Letter to the Industry

    Obviously, to me at least, there's some difference in process/materials/QA/QC depending on whom one sources a frame from. Also, to me, customer service isn't measured by how fast someone in sales responds to a purchase inquiry.
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  27. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by juxtaposition View Post
    So buying from the middleman is considered factory direct now? I guess that makes Fatback, 907 and Borealis factory direct too.
    I am assuming these ship straight from China and Lamere never touches them. That's what "factory direct" means to me.

    If they ship to Lamere and Lamere then ships them, then they are no different than Bikes Direct, etc. type of companies where they eliminate the middle man or bicycle dealer.

  28. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by juxtaposition View Post
    So buying from the middleman is considered factory direct now? I guess that makes Fatback, 907 and Borealis factory direct too.
    Fatback frames are made in the US .. not sure that fits the point you're trying to make.

  29. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSJ1973 View Post
    I am assuming these ship straight from China and Lamere never touches them. That's what "factory direct" means to me.

    If they ship to Lamere and Lamere then ships them, then they are no different than Bikes Direct, etc. type of companies where they eliminate the middle man or bicycle dealer.
    Factory direct typically means you (the consumer) are buying directly from the factory or manufacturer. e.g. carbon rims from light-bicycles.com.

    Lamere is buying from the manufacturer, adding on his profit and reselling to the consumer. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not factory direct and the <del>$1800</del> $1400 price tag reflects that.

  30. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdundee View Post
    Oh so many fond memories, my first BMX bike.
    Mine too! I had the red white and blur pro thunder 3.
    My bike is heavier than yours - it does not have Carbon or Titanium parts - I love it!

  31. #231
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    On the subject of carbon rims... I've heard light bicycle have some coming out at the end of Jan...

  32. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    Of all the people in the world, you US guys should understand and support free markets.

    There are expensive 29ers, custom 29ers and cheap copy 29ers. All being produced and all being bought at the price point each customer can afford.

    Fat bikes will be just the same, best of all more and more riders will enjoy their Fat Bikes, and have to confidence to spend greater amounts on custom and specialist frames and components.

    Get real.

    Brian
    And with more Fat bikes being sold, more & more components will follow (like suspension forks!)

  33. #233

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  35. #235
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    According to the description, these are black anodized alloy wheels.

    Edit: Looks to me like the same frame and fork Lamere Cycles is trying to sell for $1800.

  36. #236
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    Re: Chinese Carbon fatty

    Looking forward to early adopter doing some testing. If it will fit 80mm rims with Lou in back I'll probably get a frame.

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

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  38. #238
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    Very interesting...
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  39. #239
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    Finally...but,

    they ship out in 60 days... so I don't think that are already available.

    Chris.

  40. #240
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    yeah, would wait until end of february. there should be more chinese fatbike frame options by then. even wheels.

  41. #241
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    This is awesome. I will probably build one up.

    As an aside, I really can't believe that people would pay $2,200 or so for a Borealis. That's just ridiculous. At least the Fatback carbon and Salsa Beargrease look cool. They look different, chiseled, well thought out and have some nice graphics etc. on them to separate them. Borealis looks like a sign shop cooked up some decals with some free fonts and slapped them on a carbon frame.

    These are what I knew would trickle in at a price that is spot on. Might build up a 1x10 or 11 to compliment my singlespeed Fatback.
    Rudy Projects look ridiculous

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  42. #242
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    Chinese Carbon fatty

    Read the entire thread and kept hoping for some pics and links. Finally, after all the BS we have pay dirt. Can't wait to place my order.

    The one piece missing from the argument is that anyone can get on a plane, go to China, and start a CF manufacturing business. Go for it! But wait, why hasn't Trek or Cannondale or Spesh done so? Or have they? Is Giant "XM I Play"? Is Bontrager "Light Bicycle"...

    Economies of scale?

  43. #243
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    Some more info they just sent me. They look to have dirt cheap 65mm and 80mm complete carbon rims and also extremely cheap alloy 100mm complete rims. Oh my.


    Remark: We have offset rear triangle(OLD 190mm=90mm+100mm) to avoid the chain touch tyre.That means if you build the wheelset,you have to adjust the rear wheel left +5mm to make the wheel in center of frame.




    1.)front fork 15mm thru axle QR, model QR325 15*142mm.
    2.)rear normal QR M10,model: AF711 M5*200mm.
    3.)rear 12mm thru axle QR
    4.)Rear 12mm dropout ,model fm-m010-end
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  44. #244
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    2016 Trek Farley 7
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  45. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tincup69 View Post
    Remark: We have offset rear triangle(OLD 190mm=90mm+100mm) to avoid the chain touch tyre.That means if you build the wheelset,you have to adjust the rear wheel left +5mm to make the wheel in center of frame.
    5mm offset on a 190mm frame??? As excited as I am about cheaper carbon, that just seems like a major fail.

  46. #246
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    If I a reading this correctly, frame and rims will be about 2kg.? Does that include the fork? What are we looking at for total bike weight.

    I really don't need another bike with my mukluk2 serving me quite well, but for a fun project this is starting to be interesting.

  47. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by appleSSeed View Post
    This is awesome. I will probably build one up.

    As an aside, I really can't believe that people would pay $2,200 or so for a Borealis. That's just ridiculous. At least the Fatback carbon and Salsa Beargrease look cool. They look different, chiseled, well thought out and have some nice graphics etc. on them to separate them. Borealis looks like a sign shop cooked up some decals with some free fonts and slapped them on a carbon frame.

    These are what I knew would trickle in at a price that is spot on. Might build up a 1x10 or 11 to compliment my singlespeed Fatback.
    I don't think it's the graphics that make my Yampa handle better than my Fatback did, or maybe it is? It also fit's me better hmmmm, Why go hatin on other peoples rides?

    P.S. I had a 190 aluminum Fatback with carbon fork on order but with my local club discount and with no shipping fees my Yampa came to about $500 more than the Fatback. Don't get me wrong I am still a Fatback fanboy though but this was just a no brainier, oh and did I mention it was actually available.

  48. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by juxtaposition View Post
    5mm offset on a 190mm frame??? As excited as I am about cheaper carbon, that just seems like a major fail.
    I don't know anything about frame geometry but is 5mm a lot for offset? Are any other 190mm frames offset of are they all symmetrical? I posted the numbers hoping someone could decipher them. I think my Muk is symmetrical but don't know how much that matters to me.
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    Everyone has their own opinion. I think the borealis is the best looking fatbike out there…. I also think the fatbacks are hideous.

    Quote Originally Posted by appleSSeed View Post
    This is awesome. I will probably build one up.

    As an aside, I really can't believe that people would pay $2,200 or so for a Borealis. That's just ridiculous. At least the Fatback carbon and Salsa Beargrease look cool. They look different, chiseled, well thought out and have some nice graphics etc. on them to separate them. Borealis looks like a sign shop cooked up some decals with some free fonts and slapped them on a carbon frame.

    These are what I knew would trickle in at a price that is spot on. Might build up a 1x10 or 11 to compliment my singlespeed Fatback.
    Front Range, Colorado

  50. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tincup69 View Post
    I don't know anything about frame geometry but is 5mm a lot for offset? Are any other 190mm frames offset of are they all symmetrical? I posted the numbers hoping someone could decipher them. I think my Muk is symmetrical but don't know how much that matters to me.
    pretty sure all 190s currently out are symmetrical. My 907 is. Looking to build a bike for my wife and the offset is definitely a deal breaker for me.
    Front Range, Colorado

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