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  1. #401
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    Looks like 4.8" will fit..
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Chinese Carbon fatty-image.jpg  


  2. #402
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    $899 in case anyone was wondering, seems reasonable, though $250 more than the $650 on the early frame price I saw.

  3. #403
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    Chinese Carbon fatty

    Quote Originally Posted by tehdually View Post
    Too expensive. Not ordering. I'd pay $700 shipped for frame and fork. Max.

  4. #404
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    There's a used Beargrease CF frame up on Facebook for $1799 which includes axles, headset and BB. I guess you're getting a known entity with the Beargrease, but I assume no warranty.

    I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just adding a comparison point. If I didn't have the Fatboy already I'd be tempted.

  5. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adroit Rider View Post
    Too expensive. Not ordering. I'd pay $700 shipped for frame and fork. Max.
    Quite a few a peering on Carbon Fat Bike Frame, Carbon Fat Bike Frame Products, Carbon Fat Bike Frame Suppliers and Manufacturers at Alibaba.com

    Prices will come down :-)

  6. #406
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    " Thanks for your attention to our products . I'm Alisa from LT Bike,very nice to know you . We're a factory and we can give you the products at good price .
    For this carbon fat bike MTB model LTK008 , it's for disc brakes with inner cables . The rear and front fork can be both thru-axle and grooved ( 197x12mm--135x15mm / 190x10mm--135x9mm ).The head tube is tapered. The available sizes are 16"/18"/20". The surface can be 3K/12K/UD, and the bottom bracket shell is 120mm (BSA), the matched seatpost size is 31.6mm .
    The price of it is $425/pcs in carbon raw finish / clear coating / matte finish . If your order is more , we can give you a discount .The matched rigid fork FK008 is $110/pcs . We can also provide you with the matched seatpost with clamp $38/pcs , headset $18/set and rear hanger for spare $10/set .
    The shipping cost is $100 for one set (Frame+Fork) by air .
    Any question , please contact me freely .
    Hope to have a chance to cooperate with you .
    Best Regards!
    Alisa
    Website: http://www.ltbikes.en.alibaba.com"

  7. #407
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    So incredible about $450 full carbon fiber fat bike frame!

    There's a huge thread over in the 29er forum about carbon Chinese 29er frames. Based on the thread it seems like they've been pretty successful, I can't say I've read all 255(!) pages, but generally people seem pretty happy with the bikes. Basically it looks like a direct sale model where the manufacturer in China sells direct to the public.

    Yes. There is the direct sale model called M2C(Manufacturer to Consumer)

    I emailed Peter, who is quite active in the 29er forum, asking if they were considering a fat bike, he responded very quickly saying that they were in the process of making the molds for a fat bike. The 29er frames are going for about $450, if the fat bike is in that range, that's a pretty cheap carbon fat bike frame!

    That is so incredible. Are you sure it is full carbon fiber fat bike frame? And who is Peter? Is he the owner of some kind of factory? And what about the testing? How can he make the cheap carbon fat bike frame?!

    I sent a follow up email asking for more details about the frames (hub width, geometry, axles). I'll post up when I get a response.

    I'm loving my FB4, every ride is so much fun, but I keep thinking about making it lighter, the weird thing is that I never even think about making my RIP9 lighter. I guess I know I have my RIP where it needs to be from a strength perspective, but the Fatty doesn't see much/any air time, I figure it can be lighter

  8. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tincup69 View Post
    I'm going to bed dreaming about a carbon fatty with custom paint....
    LOL. So you really want a carbon fatty with custom paint....YOU can come to me. And we are the manufacturer for the fat bike frame that you guys are talking about....But custom paint can cost some money. ^_^

  9. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdually View Post
    Looks like 4.8" will fit..
    Yes. A 4.8" tire can be fit for the fatty frame. ^_^

  10. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jisch View Post
    $899 in case anyone was wondering, seems reasonable, though $250 more than the $650 on the early frame price I saw.
    Thanks. So where did you see the $650 frame? I bet for $650 is not for the consumer price... Maybe for wholesale price...

  11. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adroit Rider View Post
    Too expensive. Not ordering. I'd pay $700 shipped for frame and fork. Max.
    ....$700 including shipping cost for the frame and fork, is $700 for consumer price? That is so hard to believe..

  12. #412
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    Does the thru-axle frame come with axles? The photos don't show axles included. Normally thru-axle forks and frames come with the axles.

  13. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdually View Post
    Looks like 4.8" will fit..
    Chinese Carbon fatty-881089d1396194488-chinese-carbon-fatty-image.jpg
    The rear spacing on that appears to be 183mm/190mm. That suggests a thru-axle hub alignment groove of 3.5mm per side, which accounts for the 7mm difference. But normally isn't that 190mm/197mm?

    It's the 183mm dimension that is confusing me. Is that strange or am I confused?

  14. #414
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    agree, $899 is way too much (fork included?) when other frames go for $450.

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  16. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey View Post
    " Thanks for your attention to our products . I'm Alisa from LT Bike,very nice to know you . We're a factory and we can give you the products at good price .
    For this carbon fat bike MTB model LTK008 , it's for disc brakes with inner cables . The rear and front fork can be both thru-axle and grooved ( 197x12mm--135x15mm / 190x10mm--135x9mm ).The head tube is tapered. The available sizes are 16"/18"/20". The surface can be 3K/12K/UD, and the bottom bracket shell is 120mm (BSA), the matched seatpost size is 31.6mm .
    The price of it is $425/pcs in carbon raw finish / clear coating / matte finish . If your order is more , we can give you a discount .The matched rigid fork FK008 is $110/pcs . We can also provide you with the matched seatpost with clamp $38/pcs , headset $18/set and rear hanger for spare $10/set .
    The shipping cost is $100 for one set (Frame+Fork) by air .
    Any question , please contact me freely .
    Hope to have a chance to cooperate with you .
    Best Regards!
    Alisa
    Website: http://www.ltbikes.en.alibaba.com"



    This seems more like the price I am willing to pay .

    I would be interested to see what the actual delivered price is going to be to the UK .

    We've all seen the price jump when an actual order is placed all too often (Paypal charges , different finish up charges).

    Looking at the geo diagram I can't work out if the frame is the offset one that seemed to be getting talked about initially in this thread .

    Anyone with a better understanding of technical drawings shed any more light on this please ?




    Fat Biker

  17. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Biker View Post
    This seems more like the price I am willing to pay .

    I would be interested to see what the actual delivered price is going to be to the UK .

    We've all seen the price jump when an actual order is placed all too often (Paypal charges , different finish up charges).

    Looking at the geo diagram I can't work out if the frame is the offset one that seemed to be getting talked about initially in this thread .

    Anyone with a better understanding of technical drawings shed any more light on this please ?




    Fat Biker
    The dimensioned drawing does not show an offset. Although, technically it also doesn't explicitly show that there isn't an offset.

    What worries me about that drawing is that it shows a rear spacing of 183mm plus 7mm for 12mm axles for a total of 190mm. For 12mm axle setups, that should be 190mm and 197mm instead. It's like they knew that 3.5mm slots are used on each drop out to help align thru axle wheels during installation, but rather than adding 7mm to the 190mm standard, they started with too narrow of a spacing (183mm), then added 7mm to get 190mm.

    Am I crazy or is that 183mm dimension wrong?

  18. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfiler View Post
    The dimensioned drawing does not show an offset. Although, technically it also doesn't explicitly show that there isn't an offset.

    What worries me about that drawing is that it shows a rear spacing of 183mm plus 7mm for 12mm axles for a total of 190mm. For 12mm axle setups, that should be 190mm and 197mm instead. It's like they knew that 3.5mm slots are used on each drop out to help align thru axle wheels during installation, but rather than adding 7mm to the 190mm standard, they started with too narrow of a spacing (183mm), then added 7mm to get 190mm.

    Am I crazy or is that 183mm dimension wrong?

    I see what you're saying but the 190mm axle standard is too new for me to comment . I would like some expert opinion on this issue too or at least a list of compatible hubs/axles from the frame manufacturer .

    I suppose using traditional O.L.D. measurement techniques it all depends on the diameter of the 3.5mm guide "groove" they have cut in the dropouts .
    I.E. Some axles are fatter than others and are machined down to 9/10mm for the part that actually goes into the frame in a QR type axle , whilst the full axle diameter butts up to the inside of the frame .

    Any help here guys ?


    Fat Biker

  19. #419
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    Hmmm, i'm not following what you're getting at. Could you explain more?

    As far as I know, the 190mm and 197mm standards are clear and consistent between all manufacturers. Or at least they are in terms of hub and dropout dimensions. The only non-standardized part of this are the axles. 12mm rear axles are typically supplied with the frame because the threading and exact outer lengths are different between manufacturers. However, the diameter, spacing for the hub and 3.5mm slots are all standard.

    That's why the 183mm number is so baffling. If true, no hubs would fit it.

    Yet the q2cycling website also lists "Front Fork Spacing: 150mm". Assuming that the fork actually uses a 135mm hub, the 150 "spacing" probably refers to the tire clearance between the legs. Perhaps the person putting out this info is confused about which dimensions should be included and what the term "spacing" refers to.

  20. #420
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    Yeah, lot's of posts from me this morning. Hopefully that's a good thing rather than bad. ;-)

    I emailed q2cycling questions about the rear spacing and will report back with the answer.


    The q2cycling FM-B157+FK (Lightweight Upgraded 907 Version Carbon Fat Bike Frame B157 With Special & Better Fork + Head Tube) is the one with the drawing currently being discussed.

    Interesting to note that this frame is described as "upgraded 907 version" on the q2cycling website. Indeed, the frame is similar to the 9:zero:7 whiteout. Previously in this thread I had argued that the similarity was trivial. But with the frame now being described as a 907 version, it lends credence to this being largely a copy or at least intentionally styled after the 907. The sizing is similar except that the larger two of the three 907 sizes match the smaller two of the three q2cycling sizes. If I'm looking at that right, the q2 frame is available in what might be described as Medium, Large and Extra-Large.

    Within the past day, the webpage for this frame has been updated slightly. The dimensioned drawing was added and a few specs. I like the new overlay on the headtube picture that says "Aero & Wild Head Tube".


    Linked from the q2cycling website is a blog. Interesting...

    Fat Bike & Popularity It Becomes
    Fat Bike Frame | I Am 4 Journey

    <p>Then we also find there are the fat bikes as well. People from the cold &amp; snowy places can also have the cycling fun. <a title="Q2 Cycling Online Bike Store" href="http://www.shop-q2cycling.com/" target="_blank"><strong>Q2 Cycling</strong></a> firstly noticed the fat bike market when one of our customers let us develop the fat bikes frames together with them. So I looked into the Wikipedia:</p>
    <blockquote><p>A <b>fatbike</b> is a bicycle with over-sized tires, typically 3.7″ or larger and rims wider than 44mm, that are designed for riding on soft unstable terrain such as snow and sand. These bikes are built around frames with large forks and stays to accommodate the wide rims required to fit these tires. Fatbikes were invented for winter trail riding and racing in sub-arctic Alaska and simultaneously, for touring the deserts of New Mexico. Their utility has expanded to include all forms of cycling; they thrive in snow, sand, desert, bogs and mud as well as riding what is considered normal mountain biking.</p></blockquote>
    <p>Then we also took the <strong>carbon fat bike frame</strong> together with us to show in the Taipei Cycle Show 2014. It turned out to be a quite popular items.</p>
    <div id="attachment_968" class="wp-caption aligncenter" style="width: 697px"><a href="http://www.im4journey.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Taipei-Cycle-Show-2014-Fat-Bike.jpg"><img class="size-full wp-image-968" alt="Fat Bike Taipei Cycle Show 2014" src="http://www.im4journey.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Taipei-Cycle-Show-2014-Fat-Bike.jpg" width="687" height="942" /></a><p class="wp-caption-text">Fat Bike Taipei Cycle Show 2014</p></div>
    <p>When hanging around from booth to booth, we can also see some companies were showing their fat bikes whose frames are manufactured in our factory.</p>
    <p>The carbon fat bike frame front spacing is 150mm, while rear spacing is 190mm. Please <a title="carbon fat bike frame" href="http://www.shop-q2cycling.com/Fat-Bike-Frame/pro-p8482.html" target="_blank">click here</a> to see more information on the frame on our online bike store. It is sold at $899 for the consumer price.</p>
    <div id="attachment_926" class="wp-caption aligncenter" style="width: 790px"><a href="http://www.im4journey.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/157.jpg"><img class="size-full wp-image-926" alt="Head Tube-Carbon Fat Bike Frame With Special Fork" src="http://www.im4journey.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/157.jpg" width="780" height="582" /></a><p class="wp-caption-text">Head Tube-Carbon Fat Bike Frame With Special Fork</p></div>
    </div>
    [edited to remove a photo of questionable origin]
    Last edited by dfiler; 04-02-2014 at 08:38 AM.

  21. #421
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    q2cycling replied with the following:
    "Sorry but the frame can't fit a 197mm hub unless we need to make a bit change about the molding tools, which will cost $1000 for that happen."

    Strange, it looks like a thru-axle but only allows 190mm and not 197mm. I've written back for clarification. Is there such thing as a 12x190mm hub? Or are all 12mm hubs 197mm. (or 177mm for 170mm hub bodies)

    I've also inquired about the "150mm spacing" fork, and if axles are included.

    This could be an excellent product but they've got a bit of work to do in adequately describing the specifications.

  22. #422
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    You have to assume they took measurements off an existing frame, and I would think all would be ok. Someone has to take the chance and order one :-D

    You're right though, if they want to sell these things they need better engineer to customer interface.

    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/mGS2tKQhdhY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

  23. #423
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    They're working on it. Here's the most recent email reply. I had asked a whole bunch of stuff, including about the 150mm fork spacing, if the fork is front or rear disc spaced, and if axles are included.

    Here is the response:
    "Regarding the following question, I will have a discussion with our engineer tomorrow.

    I will come back to you as soon as possible. Thanks for your suggestion. We do need to add all the possible information to our website."

    That seems like a reasonable response to me. This is new so they're still getting it sorted out. I'll be the guinea pig and order as soon as it is confirmed not to have bizarre hub spacings.

  24. #424
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    I wonder if this woman knows that her picture is being used for this company's PR. She was (or a friend of her's was) a member here that originally posted a set of those pictures.


    Isn't she friends with the guy in the classic bikejoring picture, with the dog out in front pulling the guy in the animal skin hat and snow blustering around them as they speed past the camera?

  25. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jisch View Post
    However, it sounds like the molds they are making will be based on these designs. I asked him to let me know when they are making their own to sell.

    His name is PeterQ520 on mtbr and he has his email address in all his posts (peter@xmiplay.cn).
    Can you send the picture for the fat bike frame that this Peter can offer, Please?
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  26. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Urkel View Post
    That's how I justified spending the extra to go Ti. My Grandma Estelle always told me she was "too cheap to buy twice."
    True. Too cheap. We have to think twice. I don't know why they can sell such a cheap price for consumer. I mean, for our fat bike frame, we can't even sell $500 if you order like 100 sets. There are the cost, the material, the labor cost, the testing cost.... You can't even cover the cost.
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  27. #427
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    That's so true....

    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    Just gonna throw this out here, back when Trek and specialized announced that they were gonna be making fatbikes, there was a whole lot of hue and cry about how they were just aping the little guys and shoving them out of the way and were just gonna destroy fatbikes/flood the market with cheap crap and destroy fatback, 907, etc.

    But apparently, buying a chinese knock-off isn't going to destroy anything, because they're cheap and we all really want carbon fatbikes and 2k is just crazy money for a frame and and and and...

    Just sayin, them cheap frames come at a cost. And the cost is, Trek and Specialized don't give a sh!t. They can hold their own against that stuff. But Fatback and 907? Nope. They can't.

    So if y'all want a world where trek and specialized are the kings of the fatbike world, just buy all the cheap carbon fatties you can. No faster way to kill off the little guys who did all the work developing them. And when this does kill off Fatback and 907, you can just blame Trek and specialized, instead of blaming your cheap knock-off.

    my 2 cents. take it for what it's worth.
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  28. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancake Adventure View Post
    Uh, the reality is that bike companies pay for all of the tooling, testing, and design on unique products like fatbikes and fat rims.
    True. Yes. Bike factories like us,actually we pay the tooling, moulding, testing and a lot of cost. We won't be just satisfied with the OE orders. So we want to sell directly to consumers, to the owners of the bike shops, to the wholesalers... But sometimes, the OE order quantity can be large, so they aren't happy about it.
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  29. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chader09 View Post
    Actually, you don't know exactly what they do unless you have spoken with someone about the exact example.

    Sometimes, the sourcing company (907, etc.) pays for the design and tooling. Usually, if this is the case, the sourcing company has full rights to the tooling and any parts that come out of it. (but not always)

    Sometimes, the manufacturer (Chinese company) pays for the design and tooling. Usually, if this is the case, the manufacturer can make and sell the parts to anyone they want. (but not always)

    Sometimes, they split the costs of the design and the tooling. This is more wide open for possibilities.

    The point is, that many possible scenarios exist and you shouldn't assume anything unless you know who spent the time and money to design and build the tooling. Not to mention the legal documents that follow and support the previous information.

    Any company outsourcing components has to deal with these issues. If they don't, then they leave themselves open to having their stuff "stolen" without a legal leg to stand on if they want to do something about it.
    Yes. If the sourcing company paid for the tools, we won't sell to anyone else... That's the principle here.
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  30. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by bme107 View Post
    I wonder if this woman knows that her picture is being used for this company's PR. She was (or a friend of her's was) a member here that originally posted a set of those pictures.


    Isn't she friends with the guy in the classic bikejoring picture, with the dog out in front pulling the guy in the animal skin hat and snow blustering around them as they speed past the camera?
    Sorry, but I got this picture from Wikipedia. The picture is used there. If it is not OK for us to use the public pictures fro image, we will delete the pictures.
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  31. #431
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    Chinese Carbon fatty

    Quote Originally Posted by bme107 View Post
    I wonder if this woman knows that her picture is being used for this company's PR. She was (or a friend of her's was) a member here that originally posted a set of those pictures.


    Isn't she friends with the guy in the classic bikejoring picture, with the dog out in front pulling the guy in the animal skin hat and snow blustering around them as they speed past the camera?
    Good eye. I know both the rider and shooter. Just sent the photog a note to see if he was aware of this use.

  32. #432
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    Quote Originally Posted by q2cyling View Post
    Can you send the picture for the fat bike frame that this Peter can offer, Please?
    I believe that they pulled their offer back due to someone buying the molds they were expecting to use.

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    ...Be careful what you're looking at because it might be looking back...

  34. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jisch View Post
    I believe that they pulled their offer back due to someone buying the molds they were expecting to use.
    That was definitely true of the 80mm rims I ordered from synergy sports / xmiplay. However I haven't seen anything new regarding the fatbike that they may eventually offer.

  35. #435
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfiler View Post
    That was definitely true of the 80mm rims I ordered from synergy sports / xmiplay. However I haven't seen anything new regarding the fatbike that they may eventually offer.
    Maybe I got those confused.

  36. #436
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    I received email from q2cycling answering questions about their fat frame. The answers have me more confused than before.

    The fork comes with a 15mm axle with a hub spacing of 150mm. 135x15mm front hubs won't work.

    I'm still not sure if the rear spacing is indeed 190x12mm or 197x12mm. My interpretation is that it is 190x12mm.

    Recommended hubs are:
    "Chosen A4786B(150mm), A8777B(190mm)
    Yu Hub"

    Googling hasn't turned anything up. Anyone know about these hubs?

    If all these specs are accurate, this will end up being quite a bit different than the 907 that it resembles. It also means that I can't use this frame or fork with my hope hubs.

  37. #437
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    That's weird, never heard of 150 spacing unless you use a rear hub in front.

    I found this: YU HUB INDUSTRIAL CO., LTD - Products

    ...but I don't see anything 150mm, its hard to navigate their site though.

  38. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by q2cyling View Post
    Sorry, but I got this picture from Wikipedia. The picture is used there. If it is not OK for us to use the public pictures fro image, we will delete the pictures.
    That is my photo, just because it is posted to Wikipedia doesn't mean that it is in the public domain.

    The terms of the Creative Commons License require that you provide appropriate credit. In this case, the minimum was that you should have credited Wikipedia and the photographer, Anthony DeLorenzo. You should also provide a link directly back to the source wherever possible.

    I also find it amusing that you are selling mass-produced carbon bikes by using a picture of a hand built titanium bike.

  39. #439
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jisch View Post
    That's weird, never heard of 150 spacing unless you use a rear hub in front.

    I found this: YU HUB INDUSTRIAL CO., LTD - Products

    ...but I don't see anything 150mm, its hard to navigate their site though.
    Notice the bit at the end of this article about forks seen at the Tai Bike Show:

    Taipei Show Round Up: Fat Bikes are Big

  40. #440
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    If 150mm is going to become a standard (or someone is going to make hubs!) it seems like the impetus would come from one of the major manufacturers first. I suppose you can buy a fork elsewhere for this bike, but it seems kind of short sighted to try to force a new standard with a brand new frame on the low end of the price spectrum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anthony.delorenzo View Post
    That is my photo, just because it is posted to Wikipedia doesn't mean that it is in the public domain.

    The terms of the Creative Commons License require that you provide appropriate credit. In this case, the minimum was that you should have credited Wikipedia and the photographer, Anthony DeLorenzo. You should also provide a link directly back to the source wherever possible.

    I also find it amusing that you are selling mass-produced carbon bikes by using a picture of a hand built titanium bike.
    Hey Anthony,

    I did state that it is from Wikipedia, like a definition. Sorry. If you feel violated, I will delete your photo right away.

    Anyway, if your picture was taken by Wikipedia, I bet you are quite a person in the fat bike riding.

    About hand built titanium bike, I bet it was shown in our news. For all the products, it is our carbon bike pictures. Thanks for your mention.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jisch View Post
    If 150mm is going to become a standard (or someone is going to make hubs!) it seems like the impetus would come from one of the major manufacturers first. I suppose you can buy a fork elsewhere for this bike, but it seems kind of short sighted to try to force a new standard with a brand new frame on the low end of the price spectrum.
    I think 150mm will become the new standard. There are quite a few hubs companies
    that can provide this kind of hubs. I can also send you guys the hubs geometry...

    So the major customers notice that we are selling online. Although it is our mold, they aren't happy about it, obviously. Because we are selling much lower price than them. Of course, we cherish them very much. So I think we will not show on our online store for now. But I want to hear about you guys' opinion about this thing. How do you think of a typical Chinese manufacturer should do? When there is no violation of agreements, should they try to have their direct way of selling? Or should they just be the way they are, just produce stuff?
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  43. #443
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    Q2 Cycling Fat Bike Frame Questions

    To the folks who love the Q2 Cycling Carbon fat bike frame,

    Thanks for you guys' discussion about the frame. It seems everybody is quite confused about the hubs.

    Here we can provide some information to you guys, that some companies have already made the hubs with the requirements.

    For more information, please kindly click here to see the hub brands, and their drawings about it.

    If you guys have any other question, let me know.

    You guys' professional discussion is really helping us. Thanks a lot.
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  44. #444
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    Personally I have no problem with you selling frames directly to consumers. I believe in an open market. However if I were you I would change the name of the frame. If you read through this thread you can see there is a lot of suspicion about piracy regarding direct sale products like this - using a competitor's name as the name of your frame just increases that suspicion. In the western world we like competition and innovation, but dislike copying, your marketing material sounds a lot more like copying than innovating.

    While I see that you have listed four manufacturers of 150mm hubs, I still think it will be tough to sell those forks until we can buy hubs from one of the major manufacturers (Hope, King, Shimano etc). I have heard of some of those brands you list, but I would not buy one, I want to know I've got support if something breaks or wears out. This is especially true when you are selling just a frame - the people who buy these will be people who are comfortable building things up themselves and are going to look for what they perceive as quality hubs. Those you list may be just as good as one of the name brands, but they have no reputation here.

    Just my opinion.

  45. #445
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    The information is that blog entry is really helpful. Every customer will need to know this info before buying the frame and fork.

    From an American perspective, most customers will want even more help in finding and buying hubs. We have never seen hubs of this size and the companies listed aren't selling their products on the American market. I tried googling the hubs but could not find them on a manufacturer website or for sale from any website. We will need to know how much the hubs cost and where they can be purchased.

    I can't comment on other markets. Is the same true for Europe and other regions?

    This frame and fork look like an excellent design, perhaps even the best on the market. Unfortunately the hub requirements make it unappealing to most customers. While the 150mm front hub might become a popular size/standard once fat suspension forks are common, there are not yet any 150mm hubs available. Or at least nobody here would be able to find them. The 190mmx12 instead of 197x12mm rear hub seems pointlessly different but otherwise ok.

    If I hadn't already bought hope hubs, carbon rims and spokes sized for these, this frame is exactly what I would buy. That is, if the hubs are actually available. For now I will have to continue searching for a cheap carbon frame that can fit a 135x15mm front hub and a 197x12mm or 190xQR rear hub.

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    I will throw my opinion in as well. I LOVE the look of this frame. I also really like the look of the new carbon rims (Nextie?). What holds me back is the same thing that has kept me from buying a fat bike to this point. It is too complicated to buy one. I am betting that things will all seem a lot more clear after Sea Otter this year when everyone shows their new models and standards. I suspect that this new standard is related to the upcoming suspension fork(s?).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jisch View Post
    Personally I have no problem with you selling frames directly to consumers. I believe in an open market. However if I were you I would change the name of the frame. If you read through this thread you can see there is a lot of suspicion about piracy regarding direct sale products like this - using a competitor's name as the name of your frame just increases that suspicion. In the western world we like competition and innovation, but dislike copying, your marketing material sounds a lot more like copying than innovating.

    While I see that you have listed four manufacturers of 150mm hubs, I still think it will be tough to sell those forks until we can buy hubs from one of the major manufacturers (Hope, King, Shimano etc). I have heard of some of those brands you list, but I would not buy one, I want to know I've got support if something breaks or wears out. This is especially true when you are selling just a frame - the people who buy these will be people who are comfortable building things up themselves and are going to look for what they perceive as quality hubs. Those you list may be just as good as one of the name brands, but they have no reputation here.

    Just my opinion.
    You are right about the first part. It is not cool for us to use the competitor's name in our marketing material. So we will delete the relative material right away. So for people in our country, sometimes we don't think there is a violation, but in fact, it is. So we need to learn this from the western world...

    I do believe in innovation also...

    Thanks about your information about the hub manufacturers that the western world prefer...
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    On second thought...

    If I can actually buy compatible hubs, I am crazy enough to sell my hope hubs (which have been stuck in US customs for weeks), and be the first to try this frame. That's right, I will sell the hubs I haven't even taken delivery of yet.

    Thank you for being so quick to answer questions and receptive of feedback q2cycling. It is fun to see a company learn how to bring a new product to a foreign market. I am also excited to see that this frame is not just a complete copy of the 9:zero:7 frame.

  49. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfiler View Post
    On second thought...

    If I can actually buy compatible hubs, I am crazy enough to sell my hope hubs (which have been stuck in US customs for weeks), and be the first to try this frame. That's right, I will sell the hubs I haven't even taken delivery of yet.

    Thank you for being so quick to answer questions and receptive of feedback q2cycling. It is fun to see a company learn how to bring a new product to a foreign market. I am also excited to see that this frame is not just a complete copy of the 9:zero:7 frame.
    Go man GO!

  50. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfiler View Post
    On second thought...

    If I can actually buy compatible hubs, I am crazy enough to sell my hope hubs (which have been stuck in US customs for weeks), and be the first to try this frame. That's right, I will sell the hubs I haven't even taken delivery of yet.

    Thank you for being so quick to answer questions and receptive of feedback q2cycling. It is fun to see a company learn how to bring a new product to a foreign market. I am also excited to see that this frame is not just a complete copy of the 9:zero:7 frame.
    I enjoy talking to you guys and seeing the discussion, I can learn quite a lot from you. The market, the things you like, and the way to express some technological parts in English.

    I think it is important for Chinese manufacturers to learn that if we don't want to be a factory that is producing stuff forever. Great sales come after the professional knowledge, the caring for customers, the integrity of the company.... ^_^

    Just for information,if you guys are worried about the hubs. We can help you purchase the hubs that we are mentioning. Chosen and Joy sent us the price list when they know we have the fat bike frame. Of course, they are just Joy and Chosen... but not Chris King, Hope, Shimano... for now.
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  51. #451
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    Good to hear. I have written back to the q2cycling service email account (Elaine), explaining that I want to buy the frame and fork, but only if the hubs are available.

    Are the frames ready to ship or are they still being designed and manufactured?

  52. #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by q2cyling View Post

    Just for information,if you guys are worried about the hubs. We can help you purchase the hubs that we are mentioning. Chosen and Joy sent us the price list when they know we have the fat bike frame. Of course, they are just Joy and Chosen... but not Chris King, Hope, Shimano... for now.
    It may make sense to offer those hubs with the frame as an option.
    The bad part is if the hub fails... parts or replacement options won't be readily available to most of the world.

  53. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfiler View Post
    Good to hear. I have written back to the q2cycling service email account (Elaine), explaining that I want to buy the frame and fork, but only if the hubs are available.

    Are the frames ready to ship or are they still being designed and manufactured?
    The frame was developed later last year, and was tested successfully just before the Taipei Show. Right now, we do have the orders under production, but it will only be finished at the end of this month.

    Can I know the size and BB you like for the frame?
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  54. #454
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    Thanks! I will reply via email to work out ordering details.

    Edit:

    While choosing a size I noticed that the buying options (in the popup menu) are 15", 17" and 19". However the specifications chart lists sizes 17", 19" and 21".

    The middle of the three sizes on the chart has the dimensions I would like to order. That is listed on the chart as the 19" frame. From the popup menu that would mean I choose the largest option (19") instead of the middle size. Is that correct? The difference between the two size lists is confusing.

  55. #455
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    sell direct, i dont need $1000 dollar stickers from your "major" customers. i can make my own for 20 bucks.

  56. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfiler View Post
    Thanks! I will reply via email to work out ordering details.

    Edit:

    While choosing a size I noticed that the buying options (in the popup menu) are 15", 17" and 19". However the specifications chart lists sizes 17", 19" and 21".

    The middle of the three sizes on the chart has the dimensions I would like to order. That is listed on the chart as the 19" frame. From the popup menu that would mean I choose the largest option (19") instead of the middle size. Is that correct? The difference between the two size lists is confusing.
    Yes. Size 19" is the largest here. Sorry we made a mistake about the sizing chart then. Size 21" is too big, so we can't see the market then. So right now, there are just 15", 17" and 19". And on the chart, we must delete the 21" line and put the 15" numbers in it.
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  57. #457
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    Quote Originally Posted by brankulo View Post
    sell direct, i dont need $1000 dollar stickers from your "major" customers. i can make my own for 20 bucks.
    If it wasn't for those "major" customers it seems Q2 cycling wouldn't have designs to rip off. brankulo, how about I essentially copy your architecture designs, change just a small part, and then sell them so people would not have to pay $1,000's for your name on paperwork?
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  58. #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by brankulo View Post
    sell direct, i dont need $1000 dollar stickers from your "major" customers. i can make my own for 20 bucks.
    Thanks... That is how it works in the business world.
    But the major customers, they do have more experience in the marketing and sales.. So maybe they have better management...
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  59. #459
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    i totally agree with you on this, but i am under impression that someone else not 9 zero 7 is who he refers to as "major" customer for this frame. in that case i think my comment makes a point as i doubt they will be selling it for $899. basically, you open the company, have 100 rip off frames made, put your own decals and sell it for double the price.

  60. #460
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    Quote Originally Posted by brankulo View Post
    i totally agree with you on this, but i am under impression that someone else not 9 zero 7 is who he refers to as "major" customer for this frame. in that case i think my comment makes a point as i doubt they will be selling it for $899. basically, you open the company, have 100 rip off frames made, put your own decals and sell it for double the price.
    Lamere talked about investing a huge amount of money (ie. 2nd mortgage kind of thing) to get his frames made, I know 9:ZERO:7 also invested a ton of money, both assumed a lot of risk. Both it seems spent a lot of money on design and OWNING their own molds. I don't care who Q2 copies, it is at best highly unethical. If you feel alright supporting it go ahead, then I will be alright when your designs are copied and sold for a cheaper amount through China. I will give them a company name, "Improved HuRa Designs".
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  61. #461
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    i dont mind being copied, you know what they are saying about copying, dont you?anyways, i will gladly buy this frame if it proves to be functional.

  62. #462
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    Interesting, the hub diagrams have been removed from q2cycling's blog post that was linked to earlier. Also, the B157 fatbike page is not accessible on their website right now. Hopefully that means they're figuring out the details and are actively working on it. http://www.shop-q2cycling.com/Fat-Bi...pro-p8482.html

    On a separate topic:

    I don't find anything wrong with the business model here. Everyone involved in the bike industry invests money in their portion of that business. Chinese factories are the world leaders in the processes and technology required to build carbon bicycle components. That did not come cheaply. We have nothing to suggest that any company mentioned here, signed a closed mold contract and then breached that contract.

    Earlier they were accused of copying 9:zero:7 but now we've found out there are major differences between the B157 and the whiteout. It was also suggested that another major bike company commissioned the mold for an upcoming bike. If that's the case, will the same criticism of copying 9:zero:7 be made of that other major bike company?

    In my opinion, the moral high ground doesn't involve buying from relatively wealthy western companies who hire cheap foreign labor. Nor do I share the currently popular notion of idea ownership enforced at the end of a gun. (western patent law) Buying directly from factories will likely result in a more equitable distribution of wealth. And the existence of these factories is driving technological innovation. In other words, I consider the purchasing of these frames to be completely ethical.

  63. #463
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

    I don't find anything wrong with the business model here. Everyone involved in the bike industry invests money in their portion of that business. Chinese factories are the world leaders in the processes and technology required to build carbon bicycle components. That did not come cheaply. We have nothing to suggest that any company mentioned here, signed a closed mold contract and then breached that contract.

    Earlier they were accused of copying 9:zero:7 but now we've found out there are major differences between the B157 and the whiteout. It was also suggested that another major bike company commissioned the mold for an upcoming bike. If that's the case, will the same criticism of copying 9:zero:7 be made of that other major bike company?

    In my opinion, the moral high ground doesn't involve buying from relatively wealthy western companies who hire cheap foreign labor. Nor do I share the currently popular notion of idea ownership enforced at the end of a gun. (western patent law) Buying directly from factories will likely result in a more equitable distribution of wealth. And the existence of these factories is driving technological innovation. In other words, I consider the purchasing of these frames to be completely ethical.
    You can play it how you want, but Q2 here is specifically trying to piggyback off an established brand through design copy and marketing, NOT make their own original design and marketing themselves.

    Distribution of wealth? Seriously? How about stand on your own two feet and play fair?

    My problem is not with their direct selling, it is with the blatant attempt to use other companies to do it.

    Supporting companies that do business like this is putting a price tag on your own ethics. With that, I am done.
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  64. #464
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    Quote Originally Posted by brankulo View Post
    i dont mind being copied, you know what they are saying about copying, dont you?anyways, i will gladly buy this frame if it proves to be functional.
    Then you are either ignorant or don't care about working hard and taking on risk so that others can profit off of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logantri View Post
    Lamere talked about investing a huge amount of money (ie. 2nd mortgage kind of thing) to get his frames made, I know 9:ZERO:7 also invested a ton of money, both assumed a lot of risk. Both it seems spent a lot of money on design and OWNING their own molds. I don't care who Q2 copies, it is at best highly unethical. If you feel alright supporting it go ahead, then I will be alright when your designs are copied and sold for a cheaper amount through China. I will give them a company name, "Improved HuRa Designs".
    With the current hub requirements, exactly whose design do you believe they copied. I wish they would have copied better.

    Galen

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    [Deleted]

    In attempt to not derail the thread, I have deleted my post on ethics.

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    i think i am just confident in the work i do, but lets not derail this thread

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    There are only so many ways to make these things. EVERY bike company is ripping off an idea from another company that ripped the idea off from another company and so on. Can we just have a separate thread for ethics? Nobody ever changes anyone else's mind in these arguments. We have seen them over and over about things like Wallgoose, Chinese carbon rims, Bikes Direct, etc.

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    i'm glad to see this thread is finally coming around with actual product. lugantri, you're funny. first of all your avi description says your "living the thug life", so you're out robbing, raping, murdering, slingin' sacks and pilfering everything in your path, then you come in here to preach moral/work ethics? pfff! well if companies go to china to do work they know what they are getting into or they are ignorant. think of this company like BASF, they don't make the things, they just make the things better. so 907 is all bent that their **** is kinda being copied and might feel the hit because they lose business? here's an idea, 907 should drop their price then to compete. i know that they can't price match, but to be 2.5x's the price that's riDICKulous. if 907 really wanted to have an edge then maybe they should learn how to do layup themselves, right her in merica! i'm done w/ you

    edit: i was using 9 zero 7 as pure example due to their name being used already. dfiler your right, i don't know their stance
    Last edited by fishwrinkle; 04-04-2014 at 02:00 PM.

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    No need to criticize 907 either. They aren't involved in this conversation so we shouldn't assume anything about their stance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dfiler View Post
    No need to criticize 907 either. They aren't involved in this conversation so we shouldn't assume anything about their stance.
    Absolutely.

    BTW, fish guy, I assume you know the "thug life " comment is meant as a joke, much like I don't actually think you look like Jack Kervorkian.

    On another note, anyone take into consideration the fact if the rear end is 190 thru axle it will bring the chainline in 7mm from everyone else's (190mm qr or 197mm thru). That may or may not be a problem for chain line issues with shifting/tire rub.
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    Well it looks like q2cycling won't be selling the frame, or at least not right now. They were kind enough to reply via email and explain the situation.

    In the coming year we will see some exciting bikes coming out of these Chinese factories. But for now he wait continues.

  73. #473
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    Like the business model or not, you have to admit this is interesting and I, for one, have learned a lot in watching this move forward.

    Care to share any more details dfiler? Maybe q2cycling will come back and explain. I'm curious what happened?

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    Copying email verbatim to a forum is something I don't do without permission. q2cycling has been excellent to deal with and I wouldn't want to try and speak for them. What I will say is that it doesn't appear anything illegal was going on, but rather that they have important relationships to maintain with key business partners. That's complete speculation on my part.

    It is somewhat ironic, that the customer service I've received far exceeded that commonly experienced with major brands. For instance, I contacted Hope for information about their hubs and let them know their website had incorrect information. Multiple times I informed them about their website being wrong and they didn't even bother to acknowledge the topic. To this day it is still broken, the tech support section is missing entirely. On the other hand, q2cycling immediately updated their online content multiple times in order to accurately portray their product. Manufacturers like q2cycling are hungry and capable of competing with the more established brands. They are still learning but are on the right track to take over a significant chunk of sales. It is fun to watch the bike industry evolve!

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    Thanks dfiler.

    Yes. Traditional Chinese manufacturers are very rush to have profit. Maybe it is because we have been poor for so long, and aren't so educated, civilized or even Godly. So we don't have quite a reputation among the western world. We were copying the ideas and even didn't pay attention to the quality. But all we cared were orders...

    But gradually, I believe China is changing, especially the people in my generation are beginning to have important positions in the business or even in the politics. Our generation loves Western culture ( the music, the movie, the show, the literature or even the faith...) We believe in free market, in democracy, in dream...

    For me, I love working. I believe hard working can help you have a difference in your life. So I am trying to have the best work performance. Learning from you guys are of very help for that, Like Jisch put, I am also learning so much to see this move forward.

    Sorry, I am kind of emotional.

    For now, the fat frame won't be available to sale online. Because we have to maintain the positive business relationship with the key partners, as dfiler put. But I believe it is just for now...Also I hope everyone can trust us that there is truly no illegal things happened.


    I hope gradually, the fat bike frameset will bring the major hub manufacturers have the 150mm and 190mm hubs available on the market. So that we all can enjoy the fun of fat bike riding....

    Cheers...
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    Hope RockShox Fat Bike Fork: 100mm Bluto RL

    Hey Guys, how about this news.

    RockShox Fat Bike Fork: 100mm Bluto RL
    The Fat Cat's Out of the Bag


    So nice to read the news!

    So CA will start the Sea Otter in a few days. I hope folks can share the news and trend then... Considering it will be in USA...And I also see what will happen in the Shanghai Show next week....
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    Someone mentioned in another thread that the 190x12mm rear spacing was a mistake on the carbon prototype frame they had sitting in front of them and that the manufacturer was redesigning it to be 197x12mm. They also said that it was likely the same frame as previewed by q2cycling. Can you confirm if it is being redesigned to be 197x12mm?

  78. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfiler View Post
    Someone mentioned in another thread that the 190x12mm rear spacing was a mistake on the carbon prototype frame they had sitting in front of them and that the manufacturer was redesigning it to be 197x12mm. They also said that it was likely the same frame as previewed by q2cycling. Can you confirm if it is being redesigned to be 197x12mm?
    Can you send the link to me? That is weird.
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  79. #479
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    The thread disappeared or was deleted. It was the one talking about the RockShox Bluto fork. However I was able to copy some of the info from email notifications.

    "As you say, the 7mm is just the width of the slots, so a 142 is just a TA ready 135 width and 197 is just a TA ready 190.
    A TA that measures 190 inside slot-inside slot is just a wrong design, plain and simple, and is rectified as we speak..."

    I can't find the other replies but I remember someone, perhaps the same person saying that they were sitting next to one of the 190mm spaced frames. Hopefully they can reply with more information.

  80. #480
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfiler View Post
    The thread disappeared or was deleted. It was the one talking about the RockShox Bluto fork. However I was able to copy some of the info from email notifications.

    Espen W:
    "As you say, the 7mm is just the width of the slots, so a 142 is just a TA ready 135 width and 197 is just a TA ready 190.
    A TA that measures 190 inside slot-inside slot is just a wrong design, plain and simple, and is rectified as we speak..."

    I can't find the other replies but I remember someone, perhaps the same person saying that they were sitting next to one of the 190mm spaced frames. Hopefully they can reply with more information.
    Thanks for your information, dfiler. I don't think it is true. The rear is still the 190mm x 12mm....
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  81. #481
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    The website has framesets for sale and says the hub problem is solved as 150/190mm will become standard?

    Q2 Cycling 100% Toray T700 Aero Carbon Fiber Fat Bike Frameset 2014 New Design-in Bicycle Frame from Sports & Entertainment on Aliexpress.com

    So, where you you buy hubs from?

    Brian

  82. #482
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    every time i see this bike listed the price keeps creeping north. i think i'll just buy a used moonie for ~$1500 as this will be my 1st fatty

  83. #483
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    Son's just called in and found that Q2 supply the complete assembled wheelset to match their frame

    26+er Full Carbon Fiber Fat Bike Wheelset Novatec 150mm Front Spacing 190mm Rear Spacing-in Bicycle Wheel from Sports & Entertainment on Aliexpress.com

    Brian

  84. #484
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    So basically $1700 for a "rolling chassis" - though I'm not sure if the wheel is built or just the hub and rim?

  85. #485
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    that looks like nextie rim. not interested in frame anymore at this price point. rims, maybe.

  86. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    Son's just called in and found that Q2 supply the complete assembled wheelset to match their frame

    26+er Full Carbon Fiber Fat Bike Wheelset Novatec 150mm Front Spacing 190mm Rear Spacing-in Bicycle Wheel from Sports & Entertainment on Aliexpress.com

    Brian


    Could just be the site "squishing" the pics but if that's a 150/190 hubset in them pics I'll eat my shorts LOL

    As others have said regarding the price they are rapidly pricing themselves out of the market here .

    No offence to Q2 but I don't think many people would be prepared to risk the kind of cash they're asking for an "unheard of" manufacturer of carbon bicycle parts with an unproven quality and track record for customer warranty returns .

    I could be way off and I hope I'm wrong .
    The price of the rolling chassis needs to come down substantially for me to get involved at this point .


    YOMV


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  87. #487
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    Those rims are porkers too. I'll pass.
    "Either way it doesn't really matter, I just got back from a bike ride."
    > dbhammercycle

  88. #488
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    Isn't it still less than half the price of the whiteout frame? That puts it within reach for me.

    150mm front hubs should be widely available soon now that the rockshox bluto has been announced. I would bet that many brands start including it in their normal builds/bundles.

    The 190x12mmmm rear hub is still baffling though. It would be the only frame in the world with that spacing. I hope it ends up being 197x12mm.

  89. #489
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    The Whiteout frame is worth the money. I know it's a lot, but it's worth it. Have had mine since September and I have put a hurting on it to the tune of at least 2K miles here in AK and six weeks in Hawaii. And I ride things like I hate them...
    two wheel livin'..

  90. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by anortherncrazy View Post
    The Whiteout frame is worth the money. I know it's a lot, but it's worth it. Have had mine since September and I have put a hurting on it to the tune of at least 2K miles here in AK and six weeks in Hawaii. And I ride things like I hate them...

    Exactly .

    The q2 frame might be quality but would it stand upto this punishment ?
    At half the price of a whiteout IF the q2 busts up and you get zero response from warranty what are you gonna get next ? Particularly with that unique rear 190 spacing .
    One of the attractions of the chinese carbon 29er's that people keep quoting is the low price and "so what if it busts" attitude "it's so cheap I'll just buy another one and still be 50% better off than if I'd bought "X" frame" can anyone say that about this now .

    Currently $919 for frameset alone excluding shipping


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  91. #491
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    It would be easy peasy to fit a 197mm hope hub into a 190mm spacing, prolly about 20 clams at your local machine shop. That being said there are so many frames in this price point or close that I would sooner be on. Sure they might be a pound heavier but so friggen what, they will last and hold a little resale.

  92. #492
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    So I've followed this thread for quite some time, but I've missed whether this Q2 frame is actually available for single unit purchase. I seem to remember it being open, then pulled, then back again at a different price, then pulled, then available only in bulk purchase, and then pulled, and now back out at this new price. Am I confusing Q2 with other frames?

    Has anyone actually purchased a Q2 frame? Are there any other players in the overseas carbon fat bike game yet? By now, or at least before next winter, I would have expected there to be a handful of these direct frames available. It's moving slower than I thought.

  93. #493
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slow Danger View Post
    So I've followed this thread for quite some time, but I've missed whether this Q2 frame is actually available for single unit purchase. I seem to remember it being open, then pulled, then back again at a different price, then pulled, then available only in bulk purchase, and then pulled, and now back out at this new price. Am I confusing Q2 with other frames?

    Has anyone actually purchased a Q2 frame? Are there any other players in the overseas carbon fat bike game yet? By now, or at least before next winter, I would have expected there to be a handful of these direct frames available. It's moving slower than I thought.
    I just got back from Shanghai Show.
    We have removed all the products online. Sorry guys. As for the price on Aliexpress, it has been there for quite some time. And because we have to pay the higher commission to Aliexpress, and we want to promote our online store, the price there is a bit higher than what it used to be at Q2 online Store...

    Sorry guys, but the frameset won't be available for sell online for now. But I would love to share the news about the fat boy and the hubs thing from what I learned at Shanghai show.
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  94. #494
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    If you click on the Q2 link above it says "this item no longer available". Not a very good way to get your product out in the market!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jisch View Post
    So basically $1700 for a "rolling chassis" - though I'm not sure if the wheel is built or just the hub and rim?
    The wheelset are built....^_^ With rims, hubs, and spokes....
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  96. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jisch View Post
    If you click on the Q2 link above it says "this item no longer available". Not a very good way to get your product out in the market!
    Yes. I know. I hate to see this also...That's so bad.
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  97. #497
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    I find all this very confusing. There is a bike. There isn't a bike. I get the feeling there's a lot of manipulation for contracts going on. I seem to remember another company was going to make a frame available until some US distributor/company bought the molds.

    So is there a single, available, carbon fat frame that can be ordered direct from overseas?

  98. #498
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    this is one of the silliest dog n pony shows i've been to in a while.

  99. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishwrinkle View Post
    this is one of the silliest dog n pony shows i've been to in a while.
    Sorry. But very complicate. Believe me, I am not that sophisticated enough to stage a dog & pony shows. Some companies have never been ready to embrace the open & free market. They can use their "power" and the leverage to try to destroy you. I think I will write an article to let people know the true story when everything calms down. (It's my dream to be a journalist when I was still in school anyway. I don't care it will cause me to end up with the situation that will be very bad for me)
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  100. #500
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    I think this thread probably needs an enema. Maybe once an actual Chinese Carbon frame becomes available to the public for individual purchase…somebody can/should start a new thread. This thread is 20 pages of nothing. If I'm missing a frame that actually exists and is for sale, will somebody please start talking about it. Otherwise, folks should just abandon this to the Q2 cycling rep's searing behind the scenes Chinese carbon journalism.

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