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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chader09 View Post
    Actually, you don't know exactly what they do unless you have spoken with someone about the exact example.

    Sometimes, the sourcing company (907, etc.) pays for the design and tooling. Usually, if this is the case, the sourcing company has full rights to the tooling and any parts that come out of it. (but not always)

    Sometimes, the manufacturer (Chinese company) pays for the design and tooling. Usually, if this is the case, the manufacturer can make and sell the parts to anyone they want. (but not always)

    Sometimes, they split the costs of the design and the tooling. This is more wide open for possibilities.

    The point is, that many possible scenarios exist and you shouldn't assume anything unless you know who spent the time and money to design and build the tooling. Not to mention the legal documents that follow and support the previous information.

    Any company outsourcing components has to deal with these issues. If they don't, then they leave themselves open to having their stuff "stolen" without a legal leg to stand on if they want to do something about it.
    This sounds about right. However, China is famous for its lack of respect for intellectual property rights. Even if you have an ironclad agreement about who owns what, there's a fair chance that the design will end up being copied by a different manufacturer than the one you contracted with. It can happen by employee theft, bribery, or simply copying the finished product. The legal protections over there are simply not as strong as in the US and other countries.

    I think discussions like these are fine. If you care about any of this stuff, vote with your wallet. It's one of the few times you have any real power.

  2. #102
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    Could have a point there too. That one guy didnt seem to mad when moto took his old design fat bike. He even stayed in the thread and helped guys with questions, fitment etc.

  3. #103
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    Yeah, China is lax about patents, IP, etc. While some companies take advantage of that and the relative difficulty for "us" to do anything about it, not all companies are that bad.

    In the case of the Moto version of the Diamants, the MB's are the old MKII versions from Diamant. They didn't have a specific lock on that design, so MB was apparently able to go with those frames. Espen was surprised, but more flattered than upset. Not all designers will be so easy-going in that situation.

    However, on the later versions, Diamant is holding them for themselves only. So they should have some security that their latter work is more "safe" from other sales.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chader09 View Post
    In the case of the Moto version of the Diamants, the MB's are the old MKII versions from Diamant. They didn't have a specific lock on that design, so MB was apparently able to go with those frames. Espen was surprised, but more flattered than upset. Not all designers will be so easy-going in that situation.
    I'm not familiar with that, but it reminds me of something similar. Moots simply never cared about everyone and their brother copying their YBB design, even though they could've patented it and licensed it. IIRC, it was altruism -- they were proud of the design and didn't want to see it restricted to bikes most folks couldn't afford.
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmooveP View Post
    If you care about any of this stuff, vote with your wallet. It's one of the few times you have any real power.
    This is about it. This exact pattern of conversation has happened elsewhere in the past (although, surprisingly, and worthy of praise, this one has not yet satisfied Godwin's law), the only differing variable being the absurd seat / chain stays that we like.

    Maybe these designs are on the up and up, and maybe the employees applying carbon and finishing carbon are getting paid something resembling a livable wage. Can't really know unless you're there or privy to the info.

    With that in mind I don't feel as comfortable as buckfiddious in being argumentative about going this route. But dude I also don't take umbrage with your opinion, because you might be right.

    If cheap Chinese labor were nonexistent, I think the US would adapt by automating the crap out of applying carbon plies to molds or bladders through the use of robots. But, you know, it exists, so screw that when someone wants to hit a bottom line.

    Look at food processing, for example. It can be done. And if that happens, people lose their jobs (except for robotics engineers).

    ...Right? Damn. Catch 22.

    And yet some people, specific example, prefer to get their meat from a local butcher. They do this because they care where their product began and completed, for specific attributes etc.

    Gives me hope, considering how I've been busying myself this year.

    I truly hope the guys who have paid for any R&D aren't getting ripped off.

    At least this isn't audiophile marketing. In terms of compromised principles, it can get SO much worse...
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  6. #106
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    Personally, if those Carbondale rims I want wind up being available cheaper from China, I'll ask Borealis about it. If they're getting ripped off, I'll pay the premium for their product. If they don't care, I'll save some money, but not before asking if they want to "sponsor" my Alubooyah build (which is sure to attract attention) by getting their logo on it in exchange for a sweet deal. Nothing wrong with asking a manufacturer this sort of thing.
    Denver Broncos: 101-3 since 1975 when scoring 30+ at home.

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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikefat View Post
    Personally, if those Carbondale rims I want wind up being available cheaper from China, I'll ask Borealis about it. If they're getting ripped off, I'll pay the premium for their product. If they don't care, I'll save some money, but not before asking if they want to "sponsor" my Alubooyah build (which is sure to attract attention) by getting their logo on it in exchange for a sweet deal. Nothing wrong with asking a manufacturer this sort of thing.
    So you are going to ask a bike manufacturer to sponsor you in building another brand of bike? I can see I'm not the only one partaking in some of natures finer spirits tonight.
    And I love beer!!

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikefat View Post
    Personally, if those Carbondale rims I want wind up being available cheaper from China, I'll ask Borealis about it. If they're getting ripped off, I'll pay the premium for their product. If they don't care, I'll save some money, but not before asking if they want to "sponsor" my Alubooyah build (which is sure to attract attention) by getting their logo on it in exchange for a sweet deal. Nothing wrong with asking a manufacturer this sort of thing.
    I'm not sure I follow - you're asking for something resembling a price match on their product if they don't care?

    As you know I'm pro-bamboo but I think you vastly overestimate the advertising effect your bike will have.

    I've been offered to be "paid" for my web software services by placing a link to my personal site on the client's site. I can answer on behalf of Borealis in advance with a probably 90% accuracy: NO.
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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdundee View Post
    So you are going to ask a bike manufacturer to sponsor you in building another brand of bike? I can see I'm not the only one partaking in some of natures finer spirits tonight.
    But isn't that their market, where rims/hubs/forks are concerned? People who aren't building up one of their frames?
    Denver Broncos: 101-3 since 1975 when scoring 30+ at home.

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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Diller View Post
    I'm not sure I follow - you're asking for something resembling a price match on their product if they don't care?
    Even if they don't care if I buy the "knockoff" I'm sure they still care about selling their branded rims to others, particularly those who aren't aware of the "knockoffs"; plus I'm also in the market for a fork, which they also sell. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but I like to haggle, particularly when it has the potential to help a small business instead of just being a handout, which isn't what I'd be asking for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Diller View Post
    As you know I'm pro-bamboo but I think you vastly overestimate the advertising effect your bike will have.
    Not really. I figure that even jaded fatbikers will be interested in frames (i.e. those with bamboo in them) they haven't encountered before; if this leads to one sale of rims or wheels to someone who rides my bike and likes them, they will have broken even on the deal they gave me. If I was talking anything beyond that, yeah I'd be overestimating, but all I'm talking about is a few hundred bucks for some guerrilla marketing they otherwise wouldn't get if my bike's sporting the "knockoffs".

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Diller View Post
    I've been offered to be "paid" for my web software services by placing a link to my personal site on the client's site. I can answer on behalf of Borealis in advance with a probably 90% accuracy: NO.
    I've done just that for nonprofits, provided they pay me for hosting their site, and drummed up more business than the pro-bono work cost. It's that other 10% that makes it worth asking, and I don't see how it's any skin off anyone's nose, or leads to hard feelings. My point about the "knockoffs" remains, talk to the company in question, feel them out, be polite and sometimes good things can happen.

    Perhaps just for being decent enough to contact them first, instead of simply buying the cheaper option without caring if it's an illegitimate knockoff.
    Denver Broncos: 101-3 since 1975 when scoring 30+ at home.

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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikefat View Post
    nonprofits
    Clearly, Borealis is not one of those. Your answer still sounds like a price match.

    That's fortunate that pro bono worked for you. I got burned one too many times. My skepticism remains but if you have that kind of luck, then haggle away. I'm not saying it's 100% true but the majority of people who approached me in that way were trying to screw me from the beginning. So if you are the 10% type that don't, I'll just have to take your word for it.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm in the "won't know until I ask" camp about some things.
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  12. #112
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    Their QC won't be up to your stringent standards.

  13. #113
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    Thought you had me on ignore?
    Denver Broncos: 101-3 since 1975 when scoring 30+ at home.

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  14. #114
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    Forgot to turn it on.

    Good luck with the build.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Diller View Post
    Clearly, Borealis is not one of those. Your answer still sounds like a price match.
    A better analogy would be automotive performance tuning, such sponsorships/price-matching/whatever you want to call it aren't uncommon; not sure why it's an alien concpet to bike building. Another analogy would be monoskis -- buddy and I were riding a quad chairlift w/ two folks from the "singles" lane. One of them wanted to know all about monoskiing, which I'm always happy to talk about. The other one turned out to be a rep for a small monoski company, I told him I wasn't in the market for a new ski, he told his boss they needed to get me on their ski instead of Rossignol's, got a free monoski without even asking, for agreeing not to ride the Rossi. If I hadn't liked the Snowshark better I'd have given it back, I'm not for sale.
    Denver Broncos: 101-3 since 1975 when scoring 30+ at home.

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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancake Adventure View Post
    Their QC won't be up to your stringent standards.
    Nothing about Borealis leads me to remotely suspect QC issues, but when I do visit them I expect they'll be just as forthcoming as BooBikes was when I visited them, about their QA/QC and development issues -- and likely just as willing to share their destructive-testing and failure-analysis data with me. Try getting that level of CS from the big players, whereas smaller companies are eager to show they have nothing to hide or need to handwave around with slick PR.

    I wasn't going to address this, but the QC issue brings up another possibility with Chinese carbon-fiber goods -- What if those Yampalikes are actually Borealis rejects? If you follow. The manufacturer is stuck with finished goods they haven't been paid for, so fix 'em up (hopefully) and sell 'em. The manufacturer probably still wants Borealis' business, so this is probably part of the deal (as opposed to a sneaky backhanded thing to do), unless the start-up company wants to pay for all the defective frames. Just speculating here, but you may get what you pay for with the Chinese frames, vs. paying more for QA/QC and a better warranty from Borealis.
    Denver Broncos: 101-3 since 1975 when scoring 30+ at home.

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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikefat View Post
    But isn't that their market, where rims/hubs/forks are concerned? People who aren't building up one of their frames?
    Yeah I'm sure your bike will help them unload the warehouse full of rims they are having a hard time dumping. I think Drew nailed it, "I think you vastly overestimate the advertising effect your bike will have" It could almost be construed as an insult to him he actually built a frame without sponsorship parts being offered you are just buying a frame and putting a bike together.
    And I love beer!!

  18. #118
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    Bdundee and Drew have it right. Everyone thinks they should get a deal because they have some delusional belief that by them just riding the product will garner sales.

    BTW Drew, If I mention your name on here, can I get a free carbon/bamboo monstercross frame? Drew. See I did it again. I think you owe me a frame on some cash now.
    I proudly ride for these guys.

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  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logantri View Post
    Bdundee and Drew have it right. Everyone thinks they should get a deal because they have some delusional belief that by them just riding the product will garner sales.

    BTW Drew, If I mention your name on here, can I get a free carbon/bamboo monstercross frame? Drew. See I did it again. I think you owe me a frame on some cash now.
    Hey I mention his name first! besides me and the Drew live at the same latitude only three hours apart and that should stand for something.
    And I love beer!!

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdundee View Post
    Hey I mention his name first! besides me and the Drew live at the same latitude only three hours apart and that should stand for something.
    I live closer to him than you. Either way, Drew owes me a frame and some cash.
    I proudly ride for these guys.

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  21. #121
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    Am I the only one confused here? Why would Borealis supply free components to a build of a competitor's frame?

    Anyway, I work "in the industry" (as a writer) and getting free schwag ain't what it used to be. Lately, tightening margins have even been leading to a lot of companies moving to the 'review and return' model where in the past most items were keepers.

    If you have verified published content with millions of views (documented) you *might* be able to get industry pricing, which is essentially wholesale or 'dealer cost'

    Good luck.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    You can justify it any way you like. Don't make it right.


    True words.

  23. #123
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    Lemme axe a question:

    Selling cheap carbon on ebay- is this simply a back-door route around a contract? I was thinking about this last night as I was trying to understand the whole idea. Because the more I think about it, the less sense it makes.

    Figure, if you've got a $450 carbon frame to sell, even if you double the price, you've got a market dominating product, just on cost. And that goes for all segments of the bike industry, road, cross, MTB, 29er, Fat, whatever. So why not just sell them on the open market and OWN the entire market? I mean, you're a chinese/taiwanese bike manufacturer. ALL THE PARTS are made right there in your back yard. You could Bikes Direct the whole thing online, cut out the middleman and dominate the market. How many fatties did BD sell? All of them. They sold all the fatties they made.

    But this is not what the ebay carbon guys are doing. They're selling frames one at a time on the least efficient marketplace I can think of, one that's charging them a butt-load of fees just for the privilege of using their own proprietary payment system.

    We've already established that the chinese frame makers are pretty smart businessmen. So why would they do this? it makes zero sense. Ebay makes zero sense for them. It's an expensive way to sell frames. There's zero chance of promoting your sales or your product.

    The only way it makes sense is if you have a non-compete with the people you make the frames for. If you aren't allowed to sell competing frames in the same markets, ebay seems like a way around that.

    Seriously, trying to wrap my head around the idea of "we make a top quality product at the best price in the world" and "we only sell it on ebay, a marketplace most known these days as the world's largest flea market..."

  24. #124
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    Selling on Evilbay is one avenue they use to skirt import tariffs which all the legitimate companies are obligated to pay.

  25. #125
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    What is the life span on "good" carbon these days? Use to be that carbon frames only lasted a guy a few years before something became unhinged or snapped.

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