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  1. #76
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    BTW, I'm having a really crappy day, so I'm in a really fighty mood.

  2. #77
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    I, for one, am enjoying reading through the responses, as long as the ideas keep flowing and there's no personal attacks, I think its a good healthy discussion.

    I am sure the bike industry will adjust in the same way the music industry has adjusted (and for the record, I am a musician (hobbyist at best) and any music/media I have in my house I paid for).
    Big Strings, Big Wheels, The Jisch Blog

  3. #78
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    I think you may have misunderstood my point, not sure but think so.

    It's actually the Chinese factory that makes all the investment, has all the technical skills to design, test and manufacture the high tec carbon frame. They make both the expensive frame for the boutique fat bike house and the medium price frame and the low cost direct frame. They make frames for all the markets so they can achieve the volume they need and the average price they need to survive.

    Piracy has nothing to do with this business model. Nothing what so ever.

    Some years back I was a windsurfer. There was only one factory in the whole world that made windsurfing sails. Every brand went there, had them design and make what they wanted and sold the sail at the price they could achieve. That one factory had all the skills to achieve what was needed.

    Brian

  4. #79
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    Lets see what people think when a US company start selling a frame designed by a US company already selling that frame, fork hubs, completes etc and market it under another name when it clearly is EXACTLY the same as said company except for finish. This happens when said companies do not pay for moulds and then it is open slather. It happens worldwide and although it may not be right, it will continue to happen.
    I can buy the above mentioned frame here in Oz from a distributor if I want as well.
    I say, buy whatever suits you or meets your needs, makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside and then ride it and appreciate that you are a rider, out riding

  5. #80
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    to keyhavenpotterer, I understood your point perfectly

  6. #81
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    Its the same with bass strings, there are only 2 or 3 string manufacturers globally, making every price variation from generic strings through the high zoot ones. You can pay $12 for a set of bass strings or $60.
    Big Strings, Big Wheels, The Jisch Blog

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    BTW, I'm having a really crappy day, so I'm in a really fighty mood.


    You can justify it however you like. It still doesn't make it right. Had to be said.
    Riding Fat and still just as fast as I never was.

  8. #83
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    ^^^^ hahahaha!!!!
    Big Strings, Big Wheels, The Jisch Blog

  9. #84
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    keyhavenpotterer, I did misunderstand your previous post, but now it makes sense. If I understand the emails I have received, they have private molds which they won't use to produce their direct sale frames. They are creating a new set of molds, which won't be private, and they will make their bikes from these new molds.
    Big Strings, Big Wheels, The Jisch Blog

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by crashtestdummy View Post
    You can justify it however you like. It still doesn't make it right. Had to be said.
    You win the internet today, sir. Also, thanks- feeling better.

  11. #86
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    They are making new molds to produce their own frames. It's way different than stealing someone's art or other intellectual property.

    Here's what Surly have to say about new fatbikes being introduced: There Sure Are a Lot of Fatbikes This Year | Blog | Surly Bikes

    I think they have a really healthy attitude about competition and that's why I think they will continue to soar.

    "The other thing that I think is cool, is that each and every person out there who rides a bike (or who should be riding a bike)(which is all of you) has a type/style/brand of bike they like to ride. With more bikes to choose from, ultimately more people will have a bike they love. That’s what it’s really all about. Surly was never here to “own” the fatbike market. The very idea is kind of silly to me."

  12. #87
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    It's good to talk!

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    I think you may have misunderstood my point, not sure but think so.

    It's actually the Chinese factory that makes all the investment, has all the technical skills to design, test and manufacture the high tec carbon frame. They make both the expensive frame for the boutique fat bike house and the medium price frame and the low cost direct frame. They make frames for all the markets so they can achieve the volume they need and the average price they need to survive.

    Piracy has nothing to do with this business model. Nothing what so ever.

    Some years back I was a windsurfer. There was only one factory in the whole world that made windsurfing sails. Every brand went there, had them design and make what they wanted and sold the sail at the price they could achieve. That one factory had all the skills to achieve what was needed.

    Brian
    I get what you're saying. I get that the chinese factory is the one doing a whole lot of the heavy lifting on this. BUT, and this is a big but, if they are just lifting the design they developed for someone else and then selling it back to the same market for 1/4 the price, that's a pretty crappy thing to do.

    I understand that they make frames for multiple price points, but undercutting your clients is something no one wants to see.

    I keep going back to music, but again, this smacks of the kind of stuff that management used to do to artists back in the bad old days- "Hey, we'll help you out, no problem, just sign here" only to discover that you no longer own your songs. THat's kind of where I was rambling earlier- who's more important in the equation- the artist or the distributor? and the answer is, they both need each other.

    Like I said, crappy day. I do see your point and if this is a mutual thing, if Borealis/fatback/907 don't care, than neither do I. Cheers.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    It's actually the Chinese factory that makes all the investment, has all the technical skills to design, test and manufacture the high tec carbon frame.
    Uh, the reality is that bike companies pay for all of the tooling, testing, and design on unique products like fatbikes and fat rims.

    Cheapasses buying cheap **** on the internet affects everyone, no matter how you justify it.



    FYI.

  15. #90
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    It looks like the frame pictured will not have any type of luggage mounts?

    Do any of the carbon fat bikes have the ability to mount racks?

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    BTW, I'm having a really crappy day, so I'm in a really fighty mood.
    Someone needs a hug. Get over here, ya big lug.

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    I get what you're saying. I get that the chinese factory is the one doing a whole lot of the heavy lifting on this. BUT, and this is a big but, if they are just lifting the design they developed for someone else and then selling it back to the same market for 1/4 the price, that's a pretty crappy thing to do.

    I understand that they make frames for multiple price points, but undercutting your clients is something no one wants to see.

    I keep going back to music, but again, this smacks of the kind of stuff that management used to do to artists back in the bad old days- "Hey, we'll help you out, no problem, just sign here" only to discover that you no longer own your songs. THat's kind of where I was rambling earlier- who's more important in the equation- the artist or the distributor? and the answer is, they both need each other.

    Like I said, crappy day. I do see your point and if this is a mutual thing, if Borealis/fatback/907 don't care, than neither do I. Cheers.
    You're saying everything I wanted to say. Nice job.

    My other somewhat similar pet peeve is the "need" of riders to do there shopping online, but are then quickly head into the LBS when it is time to ask for schwag for a race, sponsorship, race support, etc (or see the product up close so they know what to order). Seen it first hand many times.

    It is amazing how many people will justify compromising their principles to save some money.
    I proudly ride for these guys.

    My blog.

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancake Adventure View Post
    Uh, the reality is that bike companies pay for all of the tooling, testing, and design on unique products like fatbikes and fat rims.

    Cheapasses buying cheap **** on the internet affects everyone, no matter how you justify it.
    FYI.
    Actually, you don't know exactly what they do unless you have spoken with someone about the exact example.

    Sometimes, the sourcing company (907, etc.) pays for the design and tooling. Usually, if this is the case, the sourcing company has full rights to the tooling and any parts that come out of it. (but not always)

    Sometimes, the manufacturer (Chinese company) pays for the design and tooling. Usually, if this is the case, the manufacturer can make and sell the parts to anyone they want. (but not always)

    Sometimes, they split the costs of the design and the tooling. This is more wide open for possibilities.

    The point is, that many possible scenarios exist and you shouldn't assume anything unless you know who spent the time and money to design and build the tooling. Not to mention the legal documents that follow and support the previous information.

    Any company outsourcing components has to deal with these issues. If they don't, then they leave themselves open to having their stuff "stolen" without a legal leg to stand on if they want to do something about it.

  19. #94
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    More buy from your local/small bike shop ranting, it clogs my arteries, I'm only here for the carporn ;-)

  20. #95
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    With carbon fat/ regular bikes being big $$$ some guys may not have the funds to ever afford something like that. Weither it be because they are taking care of their family or not much disposable income or whatever the case may be.
    Here might be a chance for that dude to buy a moto , strip it and transfer the parts for a fraction of the price. And have a nice ride he can be proud of. Who am i to judge that guy or blast him because his bike doesnt have a certain name on the downtube.
    Just because some people bring home bigger paychecks doesnt make them better or more "moral" than the other person. Yes i can see the argument it may not be right for companies to do this, but to bust the
    guy buying it, i dont necessarily agree with.

    (for the detectives yes ive posted questions on chinese frames and yes i ride a old 04 hardrock to work everyday.. Blast away)

  21. #96
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    We kinda have two conversations going, one is the manufacturing and buying of cheap Chinese frames and the other is Chinese companies ripping off frame designs and producing them. The later happens a lot more than people realize and wrongly labeled as a big name bike.
    And I love beer!!

  22. #97
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    Maybe we can ask them to put a Huffy sticker on the frame to make it really cool.
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    Maybe we can ask them to put a Huffy sticker on the frame to make it really cool.
    Oh so many fond memories, my first BMX bike.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Chinese Carbon fatty-6371836323_8ff1bb3e82_b.jpg  

    And I love beer!!

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhmeathead View Post
    With carbon fat/ regular bikes being big $$$ some guys may not have the funds to ever afford something like that. Weither it be because they are taking care of their family or not much disposable income or whatever the case may be.
    Here might be a chance for that dude to buy a moto , strip it and transfer the parts for a fraction of the price. And have a nice ride he can be proud of. Who am i to judge that guy or blast him because his bike doesnt have a certain name on the downtube.
    Just because some people bring home bigger paychecks doesnt make them better or more "moral" than the other person. Yes i can see the argument it may not be right for companies to do this, but to bust the
    guy buying it, i dont necessarily agree with.

    (for the detectives yes ive posted questions on chinese frames and yes i ride a old 04 hardrock to work everyday.. Blast away)
    I don't know if the "Chinese Frames" are illegally copied and what not, but if they are, then anyone buying it is supporting the activity. It can be justified away, but it is still supporting the activity.
    I proudly ride for these guys.

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  25. #100
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    I don't think anyone knows the true nature of the relationship between any particular manufacturer in China and the North American sellers. I suppose we can just as easily assume there is some kind of stealing going on as we can assume that everything is working the way the two companies want them to work. I'm going to make the latter assumption.

    I'll wait and see what the pricing looks like.
    Big Strings, Big Wheels, The Jisch Blog

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