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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chader09 View Post
    Actually, you don't know exactly what they do unless you have spoken with someone about the exact example.

    Sometimes, the sourcing company (907, etc.) pays for the design and tooling. Usually, if this is the case, the sourcing company has full rights to the tooling and any parts that come out of it. (but not always)

    Sometimes, the manufacturer (Chinese company) pays for the design and tooling. Usually, if this is the case, the manufacturer can make and sell the parts to anyone they want. (but not always)

    Sometimes, they split the costs of the design and the tooling. This is more wide open for possibilities.

    The point is, that many possible scenarios exist and you shouldn't assume anything unless you know who spent the time and money to design and build the tooling. Not to mention the legal documents that follow and support the previous information.

    Any company outsourcing components has to deal with these issues. If they don't, then they leave themselves open to having their stuff "stolen" without a legal leg to stand on if they want to do something about it.
    This sounds about right. However, China is famous for its lack of respect for intellectual property rights. Even if you have an ironclad agreement about who owns what, there's a fair chance that the design will end up being copied by a different manufacturer than the one you contracted with. It can happen by employee theft, bribery, or simply copying the finished product. The legal protections over there are simply not as strong as in the US and other countries.

    I think discussions like these are fine. If you care about any of this stuff, vote with your wallet. It's one of the few times you have any real power.

  2. #102
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    Could have a point there too. That one guy didnt seem to mad when moto took his old design fat bike. He even stayed in the thread and helped guys with questions, fitment etc.

  3. #103
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    Yeah, China is lax about patents, IP, etc. While some companies take advantage of that and the relative difficulty for "us" to do anything about it, not all companies are that bad.

    In the case of the Moto version of the Diamants, the MB's are the old MKII versions from Diamant. They didn't have a specific lock on that design, so MB was apparently able to go with those frames. Espen was surprised, but more flattered than upset. Not all designers will be so easy-going in that situation.

    However, on the later versions, Diamant is holding them for themselves only. So they should have some security that their latter work is more "safe" from other sales.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chader09 View Post
    In the case of the Moto version of the Diamants, the MB's are the old MKII versions from Diamant. They didn't have a specific lock on that design, so MB was apparently able to go with those frames. Espen was surprised, but more flattered than upset. Not all designers will be so easy-going in that situation.
    I'm not familiar with that, but it reminds me of something similar. Moots simply never cared about everyone and their brother copying their YBB design, even though they could've patented it and licensed it. IIRC, it was altruism -- they were proud of the design and didn't want to see it restricted to bikes most folks couldn't afford.
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmooveP View Post
    If you care about any of this stuff, vote with your wallet. It's one of the few times you have any real power.
    This is about it. This exact pattern of conversation has happened elsewhere in the past (although, surprisingly, and worthy of praise, this one has not yet satisfied Godwin's law), the only differing variable being the absurd seat / chain stays that we like.

    Maybe these designs are on the up and up, and maybe the employees applying carbon and finishing carbon are getting paid something resembling a livable wage. Can't really know unless you're there or privy to the info.

    With that in mind I don't feel as comfortable as buckfiddious in being argumentative about going this route. But dude I also don't take umbrage with your opinion, because you might be right.

    If cheap Chinese labor were nonexistent, I think the US would adapt by automating the crap out of applying carbon plies to molds or bladders through the use of robots. But, you know, it exists, so screw that when someone wants to hit a bottom line.

    Look at food processing, for example. It can be done. And if that happens, people lose their jobs (except for robotics engineers).

    ...Right? Damn. Catch 22.

    And yet some people, specific example, prefer to get their meat from a local butcher. They do this because they care where their product began and completed, for specific attributes etc.

    Gives me hope, considering how I've been busying myself this year.

    I truly hope the guys who have paid for any R&D aren't getting ripped off.

    At least this isn't audiophile marketing. In terms of compromised principles, it can get SO much worse...
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  6. #106
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    Personally, if those Carbondale rims I want wind up being available cheaper from China, I'll ask Borealis about it. If they're getting ripped off, I'll pay the premium for their product. If they don't care, I'll save some money, but not before asking if they want to "sponsor" my Alubooyah build (which is sure to attract attention) by getting their logo on it in exchange for a sweet deal. Nothing wrong with asking a manufacturer this sort of thing.
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikefat View Post
    Personally, if those Carbondale rims I want wind up being available cheaper from China, I'll ask Borealis about it. If they're getting ripped off, I'll pay the premium for their product. If they don't care, I'll save some money, but not before asking if they want to "sponsor" my Alubooyah build (which is sure to attract attention) by getting their logo on it in exchange for a sweet deal. Nothing wrong with asking a manufacturer this sort of thing.
    So you are going to ask a bike manufacturer to sponsor you in building another brand of bike? I can see I'm not the only one partaking in some of natures finer spirits tonight.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikefat View Post
    Personally, if those Carbondale rims I want wind up being available cheaper from China, I'll ask Borealis about it. If they're getting ripped off, I'll pay the premium for their product. If they don't care, I'll save some money, but not before asking if they want to "sponsor" my Alubooyah build (which is sure to attract attention) by getting their logo on it in exchange for a sweet deal. Nothing wrong with asking a manufacturer this sort of thing.
    I'm not sure I follow - you're asking for something resembling a price match on their product if they don't care?

    As you know I'm pro-bamboo but I think you vastly overestimate the advertising effect your bike will have.

    I've been offered to be "paid" for my web software services by placing a link to my personal site on the client's site. I can answer on behalf of Borealis in advance with a probably 90% accuracy: NO.
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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdundee View Post
    So you are going to ask a bike manufacturer to sponsor you in building another brand of bike? I can see I'm not the only one partaking in some of natures finer spirits tonight.
    But isn't that their market, where rims/hubs/forks are concerned? People who aren't building up one of their frames?
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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Diller View Post
    I'm not sure I follow - you're asking for something resembling a price match on their product if they don't care?
    Even if they don't care if I buy the "knockoff" I'm sure they still care about selling their branded rims to others, particularly those who aren't aware of the "knockoffs"; plus I'm also in the market for a fork, which they also sell. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but I like to haggle, particularly when it has the potential to help a small business instead of just being a handout, which isn't what I'd be asking for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Diller View Post
    As you know I'm pro-bamboo but I think you vastly overestimate the advertising effect your bike will have.
    Not really. I figure that even jaded fatbikers will be interested in frames (i.e. those with bamboo in them) they haven't encountered before; if this leads to one sale of rims or wheels to someone who rides my bike and likes them, they will have broken even on the deal they gave me. If I was talking anything beyond that, yeah I'd be overestimating, but all I'm talking about is a few hundred bucks for some guerrilla marketing they otherwise wouldn't get if my bike's sporting the "knockoffs".

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Diller View Post
    I've been offered to be "paid" for my web software services by placing a link to my personal site on the client's site. I can answer on behalf of Borealis in advance with a probably 90% accuracy: NO.
    I've done just that for nonprofits, provided they pay me for hosting their site, and drummed up more business than the pro-bono work cost. It's that other 10% that makes it worth asking, and I don't see how it's any skin off anyone's nose, or leads to hard feelings. My point about the "knockoffs" remains, talk to the company in question, feel them out, be polite and sometimes good things can happen.

    Perhaps just for being decent enough to contact them first, instead of simply buying the cheaper option without caring if it's an illegitimate knockoff.
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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikefat View Post
    nonprofits
    Clearly, Borealis is not one of those. Your answer still sounds like a price match.

    That's fortunate that pro bono worked for you. I got burned one too many times. My skepticism remains but if you have that kind of luck, then haggle away. I'm not saying it's 100% true but the majority of people who approached me in that way were trying to screw me from the beginning. So if you are the 10% type that don't, I'll just have to take your word for it.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm in the "won't know until I ask" camp about some things.
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  12. #112
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    Their QC won't be up to your stringent standards.

  13. #113
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    Thought you had me on ignore?
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    Forgot to turn it on.

    Good luck with the build.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Diller View Post
    Clearly, Borealis is not one of those. Your answer still sounds like a price match.
    A better analogy would be automotive performance tuning, such sponsorships/price-matching/whatever you want to call it aren't uncommon; not sure why it's an alien concpet to bike building. Another analogy would be monoskis -- buddy and I were riding a quad chairlift w/ two folks from the "singles" lane. One of them wanted to know all about monoskiing, which I'm always happy to talk about. The other one turned out to be a rep for a small monoski company, I told him I wasn't in the market for a new ski, he told his boss they needed to get me on their ski instead of Rossignol's, got a free monoski without even asking, for agreeing not to ride the Rossi. If I hadn't liked the Snowshark better I'd have given it back, I'm not for sale.
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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancake Adventure View Post
    Their QC won't be up to your stringent standards.
    Nothing about Borealis leads me to remotely suspect QC issues, but when I do visit them I expect they'll be just as forthcoming as BooBikes was when I visited them, about their QA/QC and development issues -- and likely just as willing to share their destructive-testing and failure-analysis data with me. Try getting that level of CS from the big players, whereas smaller companies are eager to show they have nothing to hide or need to handwave around with slick PR.

    I wasn't going to address this, but the QC issue brings up another possibility with Chinese carbon-fiber goods -- What if those Yampalikes are actually Borealis rejects? If you follow. The manufacturer is stuck with finished goods they haven't been paid for, so fix 'em up (hopefully) and sell 'em. The manufacturer probably still wants Borealis' business, so this is probably part of the deal (as opposed to a sneaky backhanded thing to do), unless the start-up company wants to pay for all the defective frames. Just speculating here, but you may get what you pay for with the Chinese frames, vs. paying more for QA/QC and a better warranty from Borealis.
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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikefat View Post
    But isn't that their market, where rims/hubs/forks are concerned? People who aren't building up one of their frames?
    Yeah I'm sure your bike will help them unload the warehouse full of rims they are having a hard time dumping. I think Drew nailed it, "I think you vastly overestimate the advertising effect your bike will have" It could almost be construed as an insult to him he actually built a frame without sponsorship parts being offered you are just buying a frame and putting a bike together.

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    Bdundee and Drew have it right. Everyone thinks they should get a deal because they have some delusional belief that by them just riding the product will garner sales.

    BTW Drew, If I mention your name on here, can I get a free carbon/bamboo monstercross frame? Drew. See I did it again. I think you owe me a frame on some cash now.
    I proudly ride for these guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logantri View Post
    Bdundee and Drew have it right. Everyone thinks they should get a deal because they have some delusional belief that by them just riding the product will garner sales.

    BTW Drew, If I mention your name on here, can I get a free carbon/bamboo monstercross frame? Drew. See I did it again. I think you owe me a frame on some cash now.
    Hey I mention his name first! besides me and the Drew live at the same latitude only three hours apart and that should stand for something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bdundee View Post
    Hey I mention his name first! besides me and the Drew live at the same latitude only three hours apart and that should stand for something.
    I live closer to him than you. Either way, Drew owes me a frame and some cash.
    I proudly ride for these guys.

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  21. #121
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    Am I the only one confused here? Why would Borealis supply free components to a build of a competitor's frame?

    Anyway, I work "in the industry" (as a writer) and getting free schwag ain't what it used to be. Lately, tightening margins have even been leading to a lot of companies moving to the 'review and return' model where in the past most items were keepers.

    If you have verified published content with millions of views (documented) you *might* be able to get industry pricing, which is essentially wholesale or 'dealer cost'

    Good luck.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    You can justify it any way you like. Don't make it right.


    True words.

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    Lemme axe a question:

    Selling cheap carbon on ebay- is this simply a back-door route around a contract? I was thinking about this last night as I was trying to understand the whole idea. Because the more I think about it, the less sense it makes.

    Figure, if you've got a $450 carbon frame to sell, even if you double the price, you've got a market dominating product, just on cost. And that goes for all segments of the bike industry, road, cross, MTB, 29er, Fat, whatever. So why not just sell them on the open market and OWN the entire market? I mean, you're a chinese/taiwanese bike manufacturer. ALL THE PARTS are made right there in your back yard. You could Bikes Direct the whole thing online, cut out the middleman and dominate the market. How many fatties did BD sell? All of them. They sold all the fatties they made.

    But this is not what the ebay carbon guys are doing. They're selling frames one at a time on the least efficient marketplace I can think of, one that's charging them a butt-load of fees just for the privilege of using their own proprietary payment system.

    We've already established that the chinese frame makers are pretty smart businessmen. So why would they do this? it makes zero sense. Ebay makes zero sense for them. It's an expensive way to sell frames. There's zero chance of promoting your sales or your product.

    The only way it makes sense is if you have a non-compete with the people you make the frames for. If you aren't allowed to sell competing frames in the same markets, ebay seems like a way around that.

    Seriously, trying to wrap my head around the idea of "we make a top quality product at the best price in the world" and "we only sell it on ebay, a marketplace most known these days as the world's largest flea market..."

  24. #124
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    Selling on Evilbay is one avenue they use to skirt import tariffs which all the legitimate companies are obligated to pay.

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    What is the life span on "good" carbon these days? Use to be that carbon frames only lasted a guy a few years before something became unhinged or snapped.

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Urkel View Post
    ... before something became unhinged or snapped.
    For example, the rider?

  27. #127
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    Now I've heard it all. This thread is hilarious.
    The LPG

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Urkel View Post
    What is the life span on "good" carbon these days? Use to be that carbon frames only lasted a guy a few years before something became unhinged or snapped.
    I bought a used, 6 year old Specialized Tarmac frame with a decent chainsuck scar on the chainstay and I've had zero problems with it... so at least 6 year seems to be a good answer.

  29. #129
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    I don't have any answers, just speculation.

    I imagine the ebay route takes away any issues with setting up a payment system. Also consider that by selling them this way they are not operating in the US (in my case) and therefore don't have to protect themselves from litigation. I have a friend who has a low volume, custom bike business, he says it costs him $600 per frame for insurance (I might not have that figure exactly right, but its a lot of money). I would bet by selling from China through Ebay they don't have those same concerns. Maybe they use Ebay to hide behind copyright infringement, I don't know.

    I'm sure in their minds they are marketing a "top quality product", but that's not their spot in the market. Its a low budget "almost as good" (at best) product. Anyone who buys one of those frames and thinks they are getting something comparable to a brand name product is fooling themselves. Just consider the support angle alone, you get next to nothing besides an email address with these frames.

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logantri View Post
    I live closer to him than you. Either way, Drew owes me a frame and some cash.
    I can hook you both up with a deal, but I am going to film dip the entire frame in a seamless pattern of butts.

    It'll be cheeky.

    Sorry, didn't get much sleep...
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  31. #131
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    Borealis has inserts to mount a rear rack.

  32. #132
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    For anyone who still has doubts about carbon bike frames, google "santa cruz test lab."

    Unless a carbon frame has some significant damage to it, it will last a very, very long time.
    "There are two kinds of mountain bikers in the world: those who are faster than me, and me."

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    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    The only way it makes sense is if you have a non-compete with the people you make the frames for. If you aren't allowed to sell competing frames in the same markets, ebay seems like a way around that.
    I think you hit the nail on the head, there.
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  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logantri View Post
    Bdundee and Drew have it right. Everyone thinks they should get a deal because they have some delusional belief that by them just riding the product will garner sales.
    If I pay full price, where's my motivation to stop and chat about my rims instead of getting on with my ride? OTOH, give me a deal (never even suggested "free" as some people seem to think) and I become your biggest booster, and do more of my riding where the tourists are instead of avoiding them.

    Everyone's right that I shouldn't get my hopes up, but then again I don't have my hopes up, my point was that it doesn't hurt to ask -- which doesn't seem worthy of the ridicule it's getting, do you guys pay sticker price for new vehicles, too? Worst-case scenario is I only get the best bike I can afford, but, why not try to get a better bike than I can otherwise afford?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikefat View Post
    OTOH, give me a deal (never even suggested "free" as some people seem to think) and I become your biggest booster, and do more of my riding where the tourists are instead of avoiding them.
    The take away here is from now on when I read one of your posts claiming a product is good I'll assume you are schilling it just because you got a deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    The take away here is from now on when I read one of your posts claiming a product is good I'll assume you are schilling it just because you got a deal.
    This made me laugh out loud. Well done.

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    The take away here is from now on when I read one of your posts claiming a product is good I'll assume you are schilling it just because you got a deal.
    I guess it's too much to expect the benefit of the doubt, that I would disclose any such conflicts, or that a few hundred bucks would stop me from dumping on a product that doesn't live up to expectations. People who know me, know that my ethics and integrity aren't for sale -- I wouldn't take a handout, or even a discount, in exchange for a positive review.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikefat View Post
    I guess it's too much to expect the benefit of the doubt,
    On an internet forum, yes.

  39. #139
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    Certainly not as a noob, anyway.
    Denver Broncos: 101-3 since 1975 when scoring 30+ at home.

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    Pretty much all the time on the internet actually.

  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikefat View Post
    If I pay full price, where's my motivation to stop and chat about my rims instead of getting on with my ride? OTOH, give me a deal (never even suggested "free" as some people seem to think) and I become your biggest booster, and do more of my riding where the tourists are instead of avoiding them.

    Everyone's right that I shouldn't get my hopes up, but then again I don't have my hopes up, my point was that it doesn't hurt to ask -- which doesn't seem worthy of the ridicule it's getting, do you guys pay sticker price for new vehicles, too? Worst-case scenario is I only get the best bike I can afford, but, why not try to get a better bike than I can otherwise afford?
    Quote Originally Posted by bikefat View Post
    ... People who know me, know that my ethics and integrity aren't for sale -- I wouldn't take a handout, or even a discount, in exchange for a positive review.
    Do the people that know you read your posts?
    Last edited by Welnic; 12-05-2013 at 05:47 PM. Reason: replaced context

  42. #142
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    Yes, so they're unlikely to take that first quote out of context.
    Denver Broncos: 101-3 since 1975 when scoring 30+ at home.

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  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    Lemme axe a question
    +1 for staying in character.

    If you don't get it, your tastes in entertainment are bad, and you should feel bad.
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  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ View Post
    Selling on Evilbay is one avenue they use to skirt import tariffs which all the legitimate companies are obligated to pay.
    Can you expand on this? I find it hard to believe, but would explain the questions raised by Buckfiddious

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    Of all the people in the world, you US guys should understand and support free markets.

    There are expensive 29ers, custom 29ers and cheap copy 29ers. All being produced and all being bought at the price point each customer can afford.

    Fat bikes will be just the same, best of all more and more riders will enjoy their Fat Bikes, and have to confidence to spend greater amounts on custom and specialist frames and components.

    Get real.

    Brian
    Free markets are one thing, but supporting counterfeiters is another. What these cheap bikes feed is our sense of entitlement and ignore our responsibilities to our communities. I can't afford to buy a 9:Zero:7 or Borealis fatbike; I believe in supporting my "local" economy and the innovators that invest in it. When someone comes along with no connection to my community, offering a product similar to that, based on the intellectual property, but at half the price, but none of my money remains in my community as a result of that product, I will pass. I will instead buy what I can afford, or make sacrifices on my own to get what I want, but I will not sacrifice my community to satisfy my desire or greed. This goes for bikes, or general merchandise. I buy local when I can, but not necessarily exclusively. I support innovators and those who invest in my community and "community" does not have to mean local. A merchant selling someone else's intellectual property only hurts us all and will reduce the amount of innovation available to us all.
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  46. #146
    Loser
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    I think you just described the free market, vote with your dollars

    Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk

  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weinerts View Post
    I am just happy there will be another nice used steel or aluminum frame available to me soon as people flock to the carbon!!

    I can hear a Moonie in my Future!
    I have one, you want it?? ;p

    Been thinking about a Carbon myself. But I seen a BearGrease and I didn't care for the layup...big ass seams right down the top tube, and the down tube....I'm scared that my fat ass might split that carbon right open.
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  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by vack View Post
    I have one, you want it?? ;p

    Been thinking about a Carbon myself. But I seen a BearGrease and I didn't care for the layup...big ass seams right down the top tube, and the down tube....I'm scared that my fat ass might split that carbon right open.
    Seams that bisect the front triangle down the middle from bird's eye view, or radial seams where tubes are joined into lugs?

    I'm not a fan of the former (have a Trek Superfly in my garage waiting for me to finish the repair on it), but I'm fine with the latter (huge internal surface areas for bonding).
    Disclaimer: I run Regular Cycles (as of 2016). As a profiteer of the bicycle industry, I am not to be taken very seriously.

  49. #149
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    The ones I seen ran the length of the tube from joint to joint. I'm no engineer, it's probably just the outer layer. But I'm thinking the seam was what you described first. I wish I had taken a pic. It was on the Raw Finish Carbon Frame (The one with the White Paint in places) but it was noticeable to me, and I'm about 230 pounds and I abuse bikes....I'd love to get a Carbon Fatty, but, if that's the way they are layed up, I'm just scared of it failing.

    On the Other hand I also seen the Ti MukLuk, and that was B-U-Ti-Ful
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  50. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by vack View Post
    The ones I seen ran the length of the tube from joint to joint. I'm no engineer, it's probably just the outer layer. But I'm thinking the seam was what you described first. I wish I had taken a pic. It was on the Raw Finish Carbon Frame (The one with the White Paint in places) but it was noticeable to me, and I'm about 230 pounds and I abuse bikes....I'd love to get a Carbon Fatty, but, if that's the way they are layed up, I'm just scared of it failing.

    On the Other hand I also seen the Ti MukLuk, and that was B-U-Ti-Ful
    This other part is harder to quantify unless you're up close studying the frame - do the fibers sort of mirror-image each other exactly across the bisection?

    ...And you know, it doesn't really matter. You should ride what you're confident on. Let's say your Nonbranded Uber Light Frame is perfectly safe no matter what weight / level of aggression you are... if you don't subjectively trust it, then you'll be thinking about it while riding, as opposed to riding.
    Disclaimer: I run Regular Cycles (as of 2016). As a profiteer of the bicycle industry, I am not to be taken very seriously.

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