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  1. #51
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    I got another email last night saying the frames would start to be available in the Jan/Feb timeframe.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    I took a look at pics of both and they appear to be similar (like many carbon frames) but definitely not the same. On the other hand, Salted Bikes does sell the "fork with many names" with their own name thrown on it.
    Compare the geometry charts of these frames...
    Espen Wethe
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Espen W View Post
    Compare the geometry charts of these frames...
    Looks the same geo wise!!

    From their site:
    A lot of hard work and riding has gone into the development of the Sandfly. Needless to say, we're kinda' proud of the end result.

    If it's the same frame as the Borealis, geo wise it is what a bunch of crap!!

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Espen W View Post
    Compare the geometry charts of these frames...
    With regards to my previous quote, in the immortal words of Willy Wonka, "Strike that, reverse it."


  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdundee View Post
    Looks the same geo wise!!

    From their site:
    A lot of hard work and riding has gone into the development of the Sandfly. Needless to say, we're kinda' proud of the end result.

    If it's the same frame as the Borealis, geo wise it is what a bunch of crap!!
    "Someone" put in a lot of hard work and riding into the development of that frame, they just don't say who.

  6. #56
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    Hmmm... where can I get some just-like-Borealis rims for cheap?
    Denver Broncos: 101-3 since 1975 when scoring 30+ at home.

    C.J. Anderson career YPC = 5.67

  7. #57
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    Just gonna throw this out here, back when Trek and specialized announced that they were gonna be making fatbikes, there was a whole lot of hue and cry about how they were just aping the little guys and shoving them out of the way and were just gonna destroy fatbikes/flood the market with cheap crap and destroy fatback, 907, etc.

    But apparently, buying a chinese knock-off isn't going to destroy anything, because they're cheap and we all really want carbon fatbikes and 2k is just crazy money for a frame and and and and...

    Just sayin, them cheap frames come at a cost. And the cost is, Trek and Specialized don't give a sh!t. They can hold their own against that stuff. But Fatback and 907? Nope. They can't.

    So if y'all want a world where trek and specialized are the kings of the fatbike world, just buy all the cheap carbon fatties you can. No faster way to kill off the little guys who did all the work developing them. And when this does kill off Fatback and 907, you can just blame Trek and specialized, instead of blaming your cheap knock-off.

    my 2 cents. take it for what it's worth.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    Just gonna throw this out here, back when Trek and specialized announced that they were gonna be making fatbikes, there was a whole lot of hue and cry about how they were just aping the little guys and shoving them out of the way and were just gonna destroy fatbikes/flood the market with cheap crap and destroy fatback, 907, etc.

    But apparently, buying a chinese knock-off isn't going to destroy anything, because they're cheap and we all really want carbon fatbikes and 2k is just crazy money for a frame and and and and...

    Just sayin, them cheap frames come at a cost. And the cost is, Trek and Specialized don't give a sh!t. They can hold their own against that stuff. But Fatback and 907? Nope. They can't.

    So if y'all want a world where trek and specialized are the kings of the fatbike world, just buy all the cheap carbon fatties you can. No faster way to kill off the little guys who did all the work developing them. And when this does kill off Fatback and 907, you can just blame Trek and specialized, instead of blaming your cheap knock-off.

    my 2 cents. take it for what it's worth.
    True story, well put sir!!

  9. #59
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    Good point bf, and I appreciate that position.

    I've got two kids in college, so funds are tight, there's no way I can afford a $2,300 frame. After riding my FB4 for a few months I find I really enjoy the fat bike experience, but would really like a lighter bike.

    I can't speak for everyone out there, but from my position if I did buy one of these bikes, I am not taking a bike purchase away from Fatback or 907. If it came down to it, if this cheap carbon fiber bike doesn't pan out, I simply will ride the FB4 and won't buy another bike right now.

    I do have pangs of guilt in thinking about these frames (and the FB4), but I don't really understand the legal ramifications of mold ownership etc. I hate to support thievery, I guess I assume that whatever they are doing is legal or it would be challenged, maybe that's naive. Like it or not, 907 and other high end bike manufacturers will have to combat the low end retailers, its a fact of life for them. Frankly I doubt anyone who is looking at a CF Beargrease would be tempted by a no-name Chinese frame, I could be wrong there, but if I had the cash, there would be a Beargrease in my shed right now.

    Regardless of those pangs, me buying one of those frames is not hurting 907 or Fatback; me having two kids in college is definitely hurting them, but that's not going to change. I dream about buying a high zoot bike at some time in my life, a no-holds-barred-full-on-blinged-out bike, but that's many years away at this point.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jisch View Post
    Good point bf, and I appreciate that position.

    I've got two kids in college, so funds are tight, there's no way I can afford a $2,300 frame. After riding my FB4 for a few months I find I really enjoy the fat bike experience, but would really like a lighter bike.

    I can't speak for everyone out there, but from my position if I did buy one of these bikes, I am not taking a bike purchase away from Fatback or 907. If it came down to it, if this cheap carbon fiber bike doesn't pan out, I simply will ride the FB4 and won't buy another bike right now.

    I do have pangs of guilt in thinking about these frames (and the FB4), but I don't really understand the legal ramifications of mold ownership etc. I hate to support thievery, I guess I assume that whatever they are doing is legal or it would be challenged, maybe that's naive. Like it or not, 907 and other high end bike manufacturers will have to combat the low end retailers, its a fact of life for them. Frankly I doubt anyone who is looking at a CF Beargrease would be tempted by a no-name Chinese frame, I could be wrong there, but if I had the cash, there would be a Beargrease in my shed right now.

    Regardless of those pangs, me buying one of those frames is not hurting 907 or Fatback; me having two kids in college is definitely hurting them, but that's not going to change. I dream about buying a high zoot bike at some time in my life, a no-holds-barred-full-on-blinged-out bike, but that's many years away at this point.
    You can justify it any way you like. Don't make it right.

  11. #61
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    preach on! I thought about chinese carbon but decided on 907. A bike that is a few lbs heavier will make my 22lb hardtail feel that much lighter in spring!
    Front Range, Colorado

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    Of all the people in the world, you US guys should understand and support free markets.

    There are expensive 29ers, custom 29ers and cheap copy 29ers. All being produced and all being bought at the price point each customer can afford.

    Fat bikes will be just the same, best of all more and more riders will enjoy their Fat Bikes, and have to confidence to spend greater amounts on custom and specialist frames and components.

    Get real.

    Brian

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    Of all the people in the world, you US guys should understand and support free markets.

    There are expensive 29ers, custom 29ers and cheap copy 29ers. All being produced and all being bought at the price point each customer can afford.

    Fat bikes will be just the same, best of all more and more riders will enjoy their Fat Bikes, and have to confidence to spend greater amounts on custom and specialist frames and components.

    Get real.

    Brian
    You can justify it any way you like. Don't make it right.

  14. #64
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    I suppose there is justification in what I wrote, but I can guarantee I won't be buying a $2,300 frame this year.

    These frames, like the Bikesdirect bikes, are a disruptive force in the marketplace, just look at that 250 page thread over in the 29er forum.

    Sorry to have brought it up and p!ssed people off, but I thought it was an interesting option. If the group doesn't like this thread, I have no problem deleting it.

  15. #65
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    I'm pretty happy with my sub-30 lb Fatback alloy bike. A carbon frame only sheds about 1.5 lbs, so maybe Mr 2 kids in college should cut calories for like 3 days and there's the weight savings.

    I'm kidding jisch, so don't hate me.

  16. #66
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    Walmart was apparently selling knockoffs of Banksy art, with Banksy's name on it.

    I guess it's OK because Banksy originals are really expensive and besides, it doesn't hurt anyone and it gets more people to appreciate art and stuff and really, who's getting harmed.

    Banksy's "Destroy Capitalism" print for sale at Walmart.

    And it's totally OK that GoldieBlox ripped off the beastie boys despite their ban on using their songs for any commercial product, ever because the song was really cute and it's for the kids and the original song was mean and really, who gets hurt, right?

    Never Mind the Lawyers, GoldieBlox Won Big in Beastie Boys Fight

    When you work on a project because you really love it (and want to get paid), pour serious money into it with the hope of getting your money back AND seeing a profit AND seeing the thing you love succeed, and then you get ripped off, let me know how you feel about it.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    Of all the people in the world, you US guys should understand and support free markets.

    There are expensive 29ers, custom 29ers and cheap copy 29ers. All being produced and all being bought at the price point each customer can afford.

    Fat bikes will be just the same, best of all more and more riders will enjoy their Fat Bikes, and have to confidence to spend greater amounts on custom and specialist frames and components.

    Get real.

    Brian
    Bingo!

  18. #68
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    na, just keep the thread rolling. i have this suspicion that some people purchased fat bike recently and now begin to regret it.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by brankulo View Post
    na, just keep the thread rolling. i have this suspicion that some people purchased fat bike recently and now begin to regret it.
    Nope, I *just* bought the alloy Fatback and I LOVE it. Gonna ride it in the snow immediately after work today.

    Zero regrets.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by brankulo View Post
    na, just keep the thread rolling. i have this suspicion that some people purchased fat bike recently and now begin to regret it.
    No buyers regret here. I don't mind people selling cheap carbon frames what I do have a problem with is companies that rip other companies designs off. I support local as much as I can and its up to each individual to make their own choices, I won't judge.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddslacker View Post
    I'm kidding jisch, so don't hate me.
    LOL, no hate here! (BTW at my lightest in 10 years right now, so I've done my part).

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    Walmart was apparently selling knockoffs of Banksy art, with Banksy's name on it.
    Good points, something to ponder. Thanks!

  23. #73
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    If I had a nice fat bike in the shed, this thread would not be threatening nor would I be suffering buyer's remorse. I think that's important to realize with one of these bikes (much like the FB4), you're not buying a high end product, and you'll get what you pay for in some regards.

    There are definitely advantages to owning something high end, it can be as intangible as what the marketing guys tell you or as concrete as high resale value or knowing you can call someone to get help if you have issues. I totally get that and I wish I was in a position to participate in it.

  24. #74
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    Ask yourself the questions

    Who paid for and trained in the use of the computer design software tools to draw and analyse the frames structure.
    Who paid for and trained to use the stress analysis software and hardware machines to test the prototypes.
    Who paid for the factory.
    Who produced the mould tools, who had the skill, who trained the staff.

    Who provided all these facilities and took risks to produce small volumes for the custom US fatbike house that marks the frames up three, four, five times.

    Why do the US small volume custom houses allow these guys to make another frame mould and sell direct. The factory could not supply just the low volume high price quantities and survive. It's called dual price marketing and is used all over the world.

    Ford Cars sell at high price to the retail sector and miles lower prices to the lease companies. It's standard marketing textbook stuff.

    As I say! just choose your price point and enjoy your Fat bike.

    Brian

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    Ask yourself the questions

    Who paid for and trained in the use of the computer design software tools to draw and analyse the frames structure.
    Who paid for and trained to use the stress analysis software and hardware machines to test the prototypes.
    Who paid for the factory.
    Who produced the mould tools, who had the skill, who trained the staff.

    Who provided all these facilities and took risks to produce small volumes for the custom US fatbike house that marks the frames up three, four, five times.

    Why do the US small volume custom houses allow these guys to make another frame mould and sell direct. The factory could not supply just the low volume high price quantities and survive. It's called dual price marketing and is used all over the world.

    Ford Cars sell at high price to the retail sector and miles lower prices to the lease companies. It's standard marketing textbook stuff.

    As I say! just choose your price point and enjoy your Fat bike.

    Brian
    So, by this logic I assume you own every song, movie and TV show in your inventory? Because the people who get hurt most by pirating are, by your logic, the industry that fronts bands the money for studio time, pays the promotion and distributes the music, and the artists themselves don't really matter.

    So I'm going to guess that you'd never pirate a song, movie or TV show because you'd be ripping off the system. And whether that song is performed by Nirvana or kidz bop doesn't matter at all because it's all about the pricepoint and the process of manufacture, not the creativity behind it.


    You can justify it however you like. It still doesn't make it right.

  26. #76
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    BTW, I'm having a really crappy day, so I'm in a really fighty mood.

  27. #77
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    I, for one, am enjoying reading through the responses, as long as the ideas keep flowing and there's no personal attacks, I think its a good healthy discussion.

    I am sure the bike industry will adjust in the same way the music industry has adjusted (and for the record, I am a musician (hobbyist at best) and any music/media I have in my house I paid for).

  28. #78
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    I think you may have misunderstood my point, not sure but think so.

    It's actually the Chinese factory that makes all the investment, has all the technical skills to design, test and manufacture the high tec carbon frame. They make both the expensive frame for the boutique fat bike house and the medium price frame and the low cost direct frame. They make frames for all the markets so they can achieve the volume they need and the average price they need to survive.

    Piracy has nothing to do with this business model. Nothing what so ever.

    Some years back I was a windsurfer. There was only one factory in the whole world that made windsurfing sails. Every brand went there, had them design and make what they wanted and sold the sail at the price they could achieve. That one factory had all the skills to achieve what was needed.

    Brian

  29. #79
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    Lets see what people think when a US company start selling a frame designed by a US company already selling that frame, fork hubs, completes etc and market it under another name when it clearly is EXACTLY the same as said company except for finish. This happens when said companies do not pay for moulds and then it is open slather. It happens worldwide and although it may not be right, it will continue to happen.
    I can buy the above mentioned frame here in Oz from a distributor if I want as well.
    I say, buy whatever suits you or meets your needs, makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside and then ride it and appreciate that you are a rider, out riding

  30. #80
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    to keyhavenpotterer, I understood your point perfectly

  31. #81
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    Its the same with bass strings, there are only 2 or 3 string manufacturers globally, making every price variation from generic strings through the high zoot ones. You can pay $12 for a set of bass strings or $60.

  32. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    BTW, I'm having a really crappy day, so I'm in a really fighty mood.


    You can justify it however you like. It still doesn't make it right. Had to be said.
    Riding Fat and still just as fast as I never was.

  33. #83
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    ^^^^ hahahaha!!!!

  34. #84
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    keyhavenpotterer, I did misunderstand your previous post, but now it makes sense. If I understand the emails I have received, they have private molds which they won't use to produce their direct sale frames. They are creating a new set of molds, which won't be private, and they will make their bikes from these new molds.

  35. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by crashtestdummy View Post
    You can justify it however you like. It still doesn't make it right. Had to be said.
    You win the internet today, sir. Also, thanks- feeling better.

  36. #86
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    They are making new molds to produce their own frames. It's way different than stealing someone's art or other intellectual property.

    Here's what Surly have to say about new fatbikes being introduced: There Sure Are a Lot of Fatbikes This Year | Blog | Surly Bikes

    I think they have a really healthy attitude about competition and that's why I think they will continue to soar.

    "The other thing that I think is cool, is that each and every person out there who rides a bike (or who should be riding a bike)(which is all of you) has a type/style/brand of bike they like to ride. With more bikes to choose from, ultimately more people will have a bike they love. That’s what it’s really all about. Surly was never here to “own” the fatbike market. The very idea is kind of silly to me."

  37. #87
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    It's good to talk!

  38. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    I think you may have misunderstood my point, not sure but think so.

    It's actually the Chinese factory that makes all the investment, has all the technical skills to design, test and manufacture the high tec carbon frame. They make both the expensive frame for the boutique fat bike house and the medium price frame and the low cost direct frame. They make frames for all the markets so they can achieve the volume they need and the average price they need to survive.

    Piracy has nothing to do with this business model. Nothing what so ever.

    Some years back I was a windsurfer. There was only one factory in the whole world that made windsurfing sails. Every brand went there, had them design and make what they wanted and sold the sail at the price they could achieve. That one factory had all the skills to achieve what was needed.

    Brian
    I get what you're saying. I get that the chinese factory is the one doing a whole lot of the heavy lifting on this. BUT, and this is a big but, if they are just lifting the design they developed for someone else and then selling it back to the same market for 1/4 the price, that's a pretty crappy thing to do.

    I understand that they make frames for multiple price points, but undercutting your clients is something no one wants to see.

    I keep going back to music, but again, this smacks of the kind of stuff that management used to do to artists back in the bad old days- "Hey, we'll help you out, no problem, just sign here" only to discover that you no longer own your songs. THat's kind of where I was rambling earlier- who's more important in the equation- the artist or the distributor? and the answer is, they both need each other.

    Like I said, crappy day. I do see your point and if this is a mutual thing, if Borealis/fatback/907 don't care, than neither do I. Cheers.

  39. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    It's actually the Chinese factory that makes all the investment, has all the technical skills to design, test and manufacture the high tec carbon frame.
    Uh, the reality is that bike companies pay for all of the tooling, testing, and design on unique products like fatbikes and fat rims.

    Cheapasses buying cheap shit on the internet affects everyone, no matter how you justify it.



    FYI.

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    It looks like the frame pictured will not have any type of luggage mounts?

    Do any of the carbon fat bikes have the ability to mount racks?

  41. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    BTW, I'm having a really crappy day, so I'm in a really fighty mood.
    Someone needs a hug. Get over here, ya big lug.

  42. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    I get what you're saying. I get that the chinese factory is the one doing a whole lot of the heavy lifting on this. BUT, and this is a big but, if they are just lifting the design they developed for someone else and then selling it back to the same market for 1/4 the price, that's a pretty crappy thing to do.

    I understand that they make frames for multiple price points, but undercutting your clients is something no one wants to see.

    I keep going back to music, but again, this smacks of the kind of stuff that management used to do to artists back in the bad old days- "Hey, we'll help you out, no problem, just sign here" only to discover that you no longer own your songs. THat's kind of where I was rambling earlier- who's more important in the equation- the artist or the distributor? and the answer is, they both need each other.

    Like I said, crappy day. I do see your point and if this is a mutual thing, if Borealis/fatback/907 don't care, than neither do I. Cheers.
    You're saying everything I wanted to say. Nice job.

    My other somewhat similar pet peeve is the "need" of riders to do there shopping online, but are then quickly head into the LBS when it is time to ask for schwag for a race, sponsorship, race support, etc (or see the product up close so they know what to order). Seen it first hand many times.

    It is amazing how many people will justify compromising their principles to save some money.
    I proudly ride for these guys.

    My blog.

  43. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancake Adventure View Post
    Uh, the reality is that bike companies pay for all of the tooling, testing, and design on unique products like fatbikes and fat rims.

    Cheapasses buying cheap shit on the internet affects everyone, no matter how you justify it.
    FYI.
    Actually, you don't know exactly what they do unless you have spoken with someone about the exact example.

    Sometimes, the sourcing company (907, etc.) pays for the design and tooling. Usually, if this is the case, the sourcing company has full rights to the tooling and any parts that come out of it. (but not always)

    Sometimes, the manufacturer (Chinese company) pays for the design and tooling. Usually, if this is the case, the manufacturer can make and sell the parts to anyone they want. (but not always)

    Sometimes, they split the costs of the design and the tooling. This is more wide open for possibilities.

    The point is, that many possible scenarios exist and you shouldn't assume anything unless you know who spent the time and money to design and build the tooling. Not to mention the legal documents that follow and support the previous information.

    Any company outsourcing components has to deal with these issues. If they don't, then they leave themselves open to having their stuff "stolen" without a legal leg to stand on if they want to do something about it.

  44. #94
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    More buy from your local/small bike shop ranting, it clogs my arteries, I'm only here for the carporn ;-)

  45. #95
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    With carbon fat/ regular bikes being big $$$ some guys may not have the funds to ever afford something like that. Weither it be because they are taking care of their family or not much disposable income or whatever the case may be.
    Here might be a chance for that dude to buy a moto , strip it and transfer the parts for a fraction of the price. And have a nice ride he can be proud of. Who am i to judge that guy or blast him because his bike doesnt have a certain name on the downtube.
    Just because some people bring home bigger paychecks doesnt make them better or more "moral" than the other person. Yes i can see the argument it may not be right for companies to do this, but to bust the
    guy buying it, i dont necessarily agree with.

    (for the detectives yes ive posted questions on chinese frames and yes i ride a old 04 hardrock to work everyday.. Blast away)

  46. #96
    aka bOb
    Reputation: bdundee's Avatar
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    We kinda have two conversations going, one is the manufacturing and buying of cheap Chinese frames and the other is Chinese companies ripping off frame designs and producing them. The later happens a lot more than people realize and wrongly labeled as a big name bike.

  47. #97
    Paper or plastic?
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    Maybe we can ask them to put a Huffy sticker on the frame to make it really cool.
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  48. #98
    aka bOb
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    Maybe we can ask them to put a Huffy sticker on the frame to make it really cool.
    Oh so many fond memories, my first BMX bike.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Chinese Carbon fatty-6371836323_8ff1bb3e82_b.jpg  


  49. #99
    Living the thug life.
    Reputation: Logantri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhmeathead View Post
    With carbon fat/ regular bikes being big $$$ some guys may not have the funds to ever afford something like that. Weither it be because they are taking care of their family or not much disposable income or whatever the case may be.
    Here might be a chance for that dude to buy a moto , strip it and transfer the parts for a fraction of the price. And have a nice ride he can be proud of. Who am i to judge that guy or blast him because his bike doesnt have a certain name on the downtube.
    Just because some people bring home bigger paychecks doesnt make them better or more "moral" than the other person. Yes i can see the argument it may not be right for companies to do this, but to bust the
    guy buying it, i dont necessarily agree with.

    (for the detectives yes ive posted questions on chinese frames and yes i ride a old 04 hardrock to work everyday.. Blast away)
    I don't know if the "Chinese Frames" are illegally copied and what not, but if they are, then anyone buying it is supporting the activity. It can be justified away, but it is still supporting the activity.
    I proudly ride for these guys.

    My blog.

  50. #100
    Loser
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    I don't think anyone knows the true nature of the relationship between any particular manufacturer in China and the North American sellers. I suppose we can just as easily assume there is some kind of stealing going on as we can assume that everything is working the way the two companies want them to work. I'm going to make the latter assumption.

    I'll wait and see what the pricing looks like.

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