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  1. #1
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    Carver and Quality Control

    End of last year I bought the Carbon O'Beast Fork and now
    being in the process of building the bike up finally and installing
    the brake, I encountered a rather unwelcoming case of
    let's-cheap-produce-in-China-and-give-a-f*ck-about-quality-control.

    That's 3 degrees.




  2. #2
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    That's very poor - are the bolt holes square - is the face off?

  3. #3
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    I am also in the process of installing this fork and they dont machine the brake mounting surface after clear coat. I ran into the same problem as the OP. Other than that the fork seems to be of great quality.

  4. #4
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    Right, because when you build anything else anywhere but china, it's 100% perfect 100% of the time.

  5. #5
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    Did you email them? They're customer service is great from my experience. The one I got was fine. Maybe you got one built on Wednesday?

  6. #6
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    I emailed them at they said
    "It is perfectly ok to do a little bit of filing to face the mounting surface. These are molded carbon, so there is always a little bit of variation."

    I guess this is ok as long as it is easy to get the right results.

  7. #7
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    i had the same problem

    eventually i got it to work by filing the mounts

  8. #8
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    Park Tool makes a jig to face the posts. Give your shop a call and see if they have one.

    Park Tool Co. » DT-4.2 : Disc Post Mount Facing Tool : Brake Tools

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancake Adventure View Post
    Right, because when you build anything else anywhere but china, it's 100% perfect 100% of the time.
    Let's guess.. it's not about china but..?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Urkel View Post
    Did you email them? They're customer service is great from my experience. The one I got was fine. Maybe you got one built on Wednesday?
    I'm in Europe. But I have an Deckel Pantograph sitting in the workshop which will do the job.

    The face is not clear coated but machined. That's why I'm wondering. If you do this step why don't you check it for its correctness? 3 degrees is massive.

    Maybe Carver should invest in the Park Tool, would make sense.

  11. #11
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    Decided to mill the adapter instead as not to weaken the postmount.
    Seems fairly thin already.


  12. #12
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    I had a similar issue, but different. I purchased two of the forks. One of them had zero issues.

    On one of my forks, one of the holes that accepts the "barrel nut" was bored shallow. It was necessary for me to either bore the hole deeper or shorten the barrel nut in order for the threads in the barrel nut to center in the bolt hole in the molded-carbon mount-boss.

    This was quite frustrating, as I asssumed from the nice finished look of the fork that everything would "bolt right up"! I spent 5 minutes trying to get the bolt started before going backwards and finding the cause.


    It was a simple fix to file a couple of millimeters off the barrel nut, so I did not bother them. Still, If items are China-manufactured simply for the sake of saving money, I see it as a short-sighted ideal. Carver's reasons for using China manufacturing may not be about the inexpensive labor.

    I bought this fork because it was the lightest and best thing available at the time. It is a good part. I would have paid more money for a domestic-manufactured Carver fork.

  13. #13
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    I too had the same issue with my Carver fork. Mounts were way off and filing is not the way to get an accurate facing done. My wifes O'Beast fork was fine out of the box.

  14. #14
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    its funny cause when i emailed carver they told me to take a file to the fork

    smh

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    For the price ... I'd be demanding they replace the fork.

    There is no acceptable reason to not refund or replace the fork, and if Carver can't control their quality, they should stop selling forks.

    I have never had any intention to purchase one, but having 2 people, maybe it was 3, I lost count, stating they have the same problem, and that Carver's response was that filing might be required ... Well, they should be doing this before they ship their product.

    There is no reason why a consumer should have to modify such an item, just to get it to work.

    It wouldn't be acceptable of a fork made of another material, and it's not acceptable of a molded part, either.

    Scratch another item off the list of MTBR forum member recommended items !

  16. #16
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    Carver and Quality Control

    You're wrong. Lots of items come and need facing. Very FEW bike manufacturers ship their bikes put with the headset, bottom bracket, and post mounts faced like they should be. Often times the shop doesn't do it either upon assembly. I have found it to be the root of many problems, but it is something that I would inspect and expect (and not get all wound up about) to work on when ordering major parts.

  17. #17
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    Absolutely agree with you. And as I said and others having the same fork probably have noticed, is that the mounts are machined somewhen during the production process.
    Unfortunately for a lot of buyers this step was made with carelessness.

    It doesn't/shouldn't take much to do it right on the manufacturer side.
    Assuming to sell a product like that so that the enduser has to figure out what's wrong by himself and bring it to a working state is just plain ignorance.

    I will let Mr. Carver know, but not asking for a replacement or such.
    This part was expensive as the German customs charged me an additional of 70% duties as it was made in China. They call it anti dumping duty.

    I left the fork alone, instead modifying the adapter. It does work now.
    But then I'm a master in filing..

  18. #18
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    Damn I must have gotten lucky. Mine was fine and works like a champ. My NINER rear brake mount on the other hand...........................................
    I got some pretty decent Niners!

  19. #19
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    Unless there is a warning on the website that you may have to fix it, i would expect it to show up ready to bolt on. Never had to mess with a caliper mount on any fork.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattkock View Post
    Damn I must have gotten lucky. Mine was fine and works like a champ. My NINER rear brake mount on the other hand...........................................
    A good product and a bad product from the same manufacturer = Proving how BAD their QA actually is
    It doesn't help their position in the public eye.

    I've worked in aviation/aerospace design for years, and every QA dept. I've worked with, would be firing people, changing manufacturing processes, and revising their QA procedures, or face the development of a bad reputation, and diminishing sales as the word got around that company X is unable to maintain a quality product.

    3 degrees of tolerance at that location = JUNK !

  21. #21
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    I guess the fact that there are several brands of tools on the market to face both post, and IS disc tabs, isn't indicative that some facing is often required? Hmm, why is it that bike shops have all those tools anyway.....

    Welcome to being your own bike shop. You want to save a few bucks by not paying for a well tooled up pro to do the build for you? This is what we in the industry have to do, a lot of the time, brand or country of origin matters not.

    Not trying to be a jerk, it's just that folks need to understand what it is shops actually do for them, the little things they don't necessarily see.

    You save $ by getting it virtually factory direct, I wouldn't expect "consumer ready" condition to be a guarantee at all. Have Parlee, Calfee or some other hot shot, high end carbon toy maker to build you the same fork, it'll be perfect, take 6 months to a year or more, and cost 4 times as much easily. The choice is yours.

    It's called frame/build prep, some need it, some don't, roll the dice and get in line.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

    - FrostyStruthers



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  22. #22
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    I don't want to have shops importancees doing drunk talk on my thread.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    I guess the fact that there are several brands of tools on the market to face both post, and IS disc tabs, isn't indicative that some facing is often required? Hmm, why is it that bike shops have all those tools anyway.....

    Welcome to being your own bike shop. You want to save a few bucks by not paying for a well tooled up pro to do the build for you? This is what we in the industry have to do, a lot of the time, brand or country of origin matters not.

    Not trying to be a jerk, it's just that folks need to understand what it is shops actually do for them, the little things they don't necessarily see.

    You save $ by getting it virtually factory direct, I wouldn't expect "consumer ready" condition to be a guarantee at all. Have Parlee, Calfee or some other hot shot, high end carbon toy maker to build you the same fork, it'll be perfect, take 6 months to a year or more, and cost 4 times as much easily. The choice is yours.

    It's called frame/build prep, some need it, some don't, roll the dice and get in line.
    No being a jerk, but ... Would you accept a 3 degree alignment discrepancy in the top and bottom fork clamp of a lefty conversion ?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeabuser View Post
    No being a jerk, but ... Would you accept a 3 degree alignment discrepancy in the top and bottom fork clamp of a lefty conversion ?
    You know that 3mm is less than the acceptable variation on a bike frame, right?
    Hence the need for facing. And prep. Like we have here.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancake Adventure View Post
    You know that 3mm is less than the acceptable variation on a bike frame, right?
    Hence the need for facing. And prep. Like we have here.
    It's a 3 degree alignment issue ... You'd probably not accept a BB face that was 3 degrees out of Alignment (knowing that a machined part mates with it) would you.

    Retread the OP.

  26. #26
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    it seems to me a lack of quality control. As I mentioned, I purchased two of these forks at the same time and one was perfect, the other however was as ordinary as the one posted by the OP.

    Filing a fork mount made of carbon would be pretty daunting for most home mechanics/riders.

  27. #27
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    Dear OP, stop pi$$ing here on the forum. Go to the source. Carver has some of the best customer service in the industry. If you didn't get the answer the first time, ask for Davis.
    And this was not "drunk talk on your thread." Mendoncycle has helped more riders than europe has dopers.

  28. #28
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    Thankfully the good old USA has the most successful failed doper to counter those awful Europeans.

  29. #29
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    Carver and Quality Control

    Quote Originally Posted by MiniTrail View Post
    you just called him wrong then agreed with him
    No, actually I was calling him wrong for thinking that he could demand another fork, and that carver should stop producing forks without better quality control. And he is still wrong on those points.

  30. #30
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    Carver and Quality Control

    Drunk or not, Mendon is right..

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeabuser View Post
    No being a jerk, but ... Would you accept a 3 degree alignment discrepancy in the top and bottom fork clamp of a lefty conversion ?
    Accept? No, I'd just fix it with one of the tools they make, to do so. Which, is why they make them in the first place.

    OP? Not a drop past my lips at that point. Had you caught me later in the evening, I'd have had a few though.

    It's like getting ticked at the manufacturer when you try to DIY your sink to pinch pennies, as opposed to calling the plumber. Only to run into problems you don't have the tools or knowledge to fix. That's what the plumber is there for, to know things and own tools, that you might not, all I'm sayin'....
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

    - FrostyStruthers



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    When I buy a replacement alternator for a car, I expect it to fit without needing to be modified ... Standard tools for installation ... That's all that should be required.

    It's kind of sad to see people making excuses for a poor QA process.

    I guess receiving a NEW frame, with one joint ONLY tack welded, should be accepted as normal.

  33. #33
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    I dunno, not going to get into a tit for tat with you over this, but it's long accepted practice in THIS industry, that frame and fork more often than not, need some prep, prior to the build up.

    List includes, but is not limited to, derailleur hanger alignment, disc tab facing, BB and head tube facing, BB thread chasing (post facing), alignment (not too common, but still pops up), seat tube reaming and flexi-honing, etc.

    Just how it is in bike land, can't speak for other industries, and if you get lucky and have a frame (regardless of brand) that needs nothing? High fives all around
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

    - FrostyStruthers



    www.mendoncyclesmith.com

  34. #34
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    Carver and Quality Control

    I think that companies "could" prep everything by hand before sending it out, and the extra time and handling adds a certain value to the product, which would be passed on to the consumer. Instead they choose to produce things as close as they can to a perfect product in mass. When we are talking about tolerances as fine as these, that is very difficult. To compare apples to apples, when building an engine you need to weigh all of the internals of the engine to make sure that they are as similar as possible. If you were to just order 4 new pistons, chance are they would have 4 different weights. Mass production. Sure, you "could" build the engine and it would run, and most people do. Just as you "could" build up most any bike frame without any prep. But neither will be as clean, smooth, efficient and long lasting as a car/bike that has been assembled by hand with the proper tools, knowledge, and care needed to do the job right. Not only is it part of the job, it's one of my favorite parts.

  35. #35
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    Good one!

  36. #36
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    Apples to Apples
    You can purchase a replacement disc brake caliper for a car or motorcycle, and not expect to need a milling machine to face the surface that attaches to the vehicle, because things are unable to be aligned, nor would you accept needing to face the mating surface of the brake caliper to obtain proper alignment.

    Neither of these are prepped by hand, but the tolerances are properly controlled via manufacturing processes, and QA checks verify the product before the consumer receives said parts.

    Hey,
    Custom builder, stating you'll need to hand fit stuff ... I can accept that.
    A mass produced item, like this fork ... Sorry, there are ways to eliminate such errors during manufacturing.

  37. #37
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    You are such an expert about everything.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancake Adventure View Post
    You are such an expert about everything.
    A few decades working in mechanical design does that to people ... Sorry

  39. #39
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    Sorry, but this one is not high tech manufacturing. A simple jig with a grinder is all it would take to get perfectly acceptable and reliable results. Three degrees off is huge.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    Sorry, but this one is not high tech manufacturing. A simple jig with a grinder is all it would take to get perfectly acceptable and reliable results. Three degrees off is huge.
    Bingo !!!
    I could make a mold in my garage and get repetitive results that are more accurate than what is on display.

  41. #41
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    To be fair, it was 2.5 degrees.
    But I didn't touch the fork as I would have to take off a millimeter on the wall thickness. Way to risky if I wouldn't get it right on the spot. The threading is made for failure anyways.

    I'm really wondering, now with the sloppiness it is being made, to its finish, if I will be safe riding.

    The next crappy thing I bought was the e13 crankset. Their BB design is just plain ****.

  42. #42
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    There are standards for some reason. And there should be the aim to put out the best product.
    Some people just don't get it.

  43. #43
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    I just bought said fork and will take it to a shop before installation to check the disc tab facing/alignment. Will report back when I find out the results.
    Rudy Projects look ridiculous

    visit my blog, BEATS, BIKES & LIFE

  44. #44
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    Perhaps the only way to improve their QC is to send it back if there is a problem??

  45. #45
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    I would think the tolerances in something like this should be good enough to use from the factory with facing only needed if one wanted it to be spot on perfect. just my 2 cents.

  46. #46
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    I had this exact same issue with a first generation Fatback carbon fork. I emailed them and they quickly swapped it out. I would think Carver would do the same.
    The LPG

  47. #47
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    The OP did say he was from Europe. "Sending back" means a whole lot more for him. That said, every time I have done business with Davis and the crew at Bikeman/Bath Cycle in my home state, it was positive. I cannot believe they would let something like this go on without some sort of solution.

  48. #48
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    It is a modern world we live in mate.. And Europe is a big place, so i am sure it is not that hard to get stuff back to the manufacturer (or at least to where he bought it from).. They managed to get it there in the first place.

  49. #49
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    My E13 cranks are great. ......fyi

    PS. Bike Abuser.....I assume your "delivery" bothers some of these folks. Not everyone loves a know it all......even if his information is correct.....fyi.....

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by E6roller View Post
    PS. Bike Abuser.....I assume your "delivery" bothers some of these folks. Not everyone loves a know it all......even if his information is correct.....fyi.....
    Looks like bikeabuser is taking a little holiday, might be something to do with political arguments over on the OC forum.
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