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  1. #1
    jrahm
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    Bucksaw or Fatmoth?

    If any of you have been thinking about this, I'd be interested in your observations. I am migrating to an FS fat bike...Bucksaw or Fatmoth. It may be a can't-go-wrong kind of decision, probably would love either. At the moment I am on a 2007 29er ti racer-x, 4" bike, pretty light and nimble but not so stiff and actually a bit too small. I am selling it.

    I enjoy aggressive descending and expect either bike would serve in terms of grip and travel, but what I am newly interested in is bushwhacking. I live in the Ponderosa forest, the high desert of Oregon, often big scattered trees with relatively open ground below. To just get on the bike and go, that's the dream. That said, there's 400 miles of great singletrack of all kinds within 30 miles of where I live (Bend/Sisters OR).

    I suspect the Salsa will be a bit more agile, shorter wheelbase and chain stays. Maybe a little bigger tire patch, so more float in snow or sand. Lenz rolls over stuff better and may climb better (bigger wheels) and with more travel probably bombs rough descents better. I have heard from the Krampus guys about the grip of the Knards.

    Both brands have stellar reputations and make great bikes. Lenz is $500 more. Maybe this is mostly a wheel size decision. Any thoughts?

    thanks
    John

  2. #2
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    Do you want a fatbike or a 29+ bike? Looks like the bucksaw won't be 29+ compatible. The Lenz will certainly be a better trail bike.

    FS 29+ makes more sense to me than a FS fatbike. I don't know if either would be ideal for bushwhacking, though. Where are you putting a frame bag on a FS rig? Get a Pugsley or ECR for bikepacking.

  3. #3
    jrahm
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    I want one bike for all things, in my case mostly trails (usually flowing, moderately technical) with sides of day trip bushwhacking and trackless exploration, and then snow riding. I think either bike will do all these things. I wonder most about the relative nimbleness of the two bikes, likely will not get a test ride on either. Pretty sure the fatter Salsa's the better winter bike, but how good in summer? Sea Otter reviewers really liked it on the trail.
    If I could get a ride on the bikes, all my semi-informed cogitations would mercifully end

  4. #4
    aka bOb
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    Just in case anyone else was wondering.

    cogitation[ koj-i-tey-shuhn ]
    noun
    1. concerted thought or reflection; meditation; contemplation: After hours of cogitation he came up with a new proposal.
    2. the faculty of thinking: She was a serious student and had a great power of cogitation.
    3. a thought; design or plan: to jot down one's cogitations.
    Last edited by bdundee; 07-12-2014 at 06:40 AM.

  5. #5
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    Go with the bucksaw. It will give you more options. Fat wheel set in the winter and 27.5+ for the summer. Imo the variety of options coming down the pipeline will make fat bikes the stable killer.

  6. #6
    All Lefty's, all the time Moderator
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    Owning a FatMoth as I do, (as well as a few fatties including an early FS) I can say that it's become my go to bike. My fervent wish is for more aggressive tires, but those are coming.

    That said, a fatbike, it is not, nor will ever be.

    If more of your riding is fat prone, sandy, explorative, loamy, make your own way type stuff, then the Bucksaw makes sense.

    If more of your riding is trail bombing, railing corners, small bump munching etc, the 'Moth will be fantastic.

    Basically, fatbikes are great, but if a lot of your riding is high speed, climbing, firmer surface, etc, you don't need the width as much as the roll, and 29+ rolls like a bat outta hell.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  7. #7
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    I have often thought that a FS fatty could be a jack-of-all-trades bike. I love my 9ZERO7in the summer with Hudu and Knard on RD, and in the winter w/ Bud and Nate. I am a larger fella @ 235lbs and love the ability to lean that b!ch over in the corners, climb whatever, and float over whatever.

    I really feel like the big tires are just "right"! You can ride them on the road, then drop the pressure and ride them on the trail, then drop the pressure a little more and ride in some nasty river bank type stuff. When he snow rolls around just switch the tires and BAAM, you are ready to ride snow.

    I am just now building up a Banshee PRIME, and I hope I love it. Other wise I might consider having only one bike. But fear that with the frequency I break things, I will miss having a backup.

  8. #8
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    [QUOTE=jonshonda;11319680] I love my 9ZERO7in the summer with Hudu and Knard on RD, and in the winter w/ Bud and Nate. I am a larger fella @ 235lbs and love the ability to lean that b!ch over in the corners, climb whatever, and float over whatever.

    Just had my second ride on knards on my 9zero7!Big change from two years of running nates front and rear!. I am curious if you run the knard or the husker du up front??? I loved the grip of the nates but they are like a boat anchor compared to the knard.

    Are you on the 27tpi or the higher thread count tires? I am also around 230lbs so have opted for the 27tpi tires to date but I don't know if that is really the way to go. I assumed that the 27tpi tires would be better for heavier riders.

    Also, curious if you have tried running a Bud up front with a Knard on the rear? So far, so good but I suspect I will be looking for more bite up front. OTOH, got caught in a storm on the first Knard ride and they performed well overall.

    But to address the OP, maybe consider a used Pugs or better yet, Moonlander for your exploration rides and consider either a 29+ wheelset or a new FS like the Fatmoth. I love riding in the winter but it is hell on components.
    Last edited by Team Honeybadger; 07-12-2014 at 07:21 AM. Reason: keeping it on topic

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Honeybadger View Post

    Just had my second ride on knards on my 9zero7!Big change from two years of running nates front and rear!. I am curious if you run the knard or the husker du up front??? I loved the grip of the nates but they are like a boat anchor compared to the knard.

    Are you on the 27tpi or the higher thread count tires? I am also around 230lbs so have opted for the 27tpi tires to date but I don't know if that is really the way to go. I assumed that the 27tpi tires would be better for heavier riders.

    Also, curious if you have tried running a Bud up front with a Knard on the rear? So far, so good but I suspect I will be looking for more bite up front. OTOH, got caught in a storm on the first Knard ride and they performed well overall. Thx
    I have a 27tpi Hudu F and 120Tpi Knard rear, only really cuz that is what my lbs had in stock when I wanted summer tires. I would have gone 120 Hudu F if I had the option.

    I have not yet tried the Bud up front w/ a Knard, as I don't know what situation would ever require so much traction up front. Also the traction of the Bud might not work well with the traction of the Knard in back, and the overall diameter of the Bud is much larger than Knard, and might throw off the feel of the bike. But if you have the options and time, try out everything you can!

    Its the spice of life my friend.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdundee View Post
    Just in case anyone else was wondering.

    cogitation[ koj-i-tey-shuhn ]
    noun
    1. concerted thought or reflection; meditation; contemplation: After hours of cogitation he came up with a new proposal.
    2. the faculty of thinking: She was a serious student and had a great power of cogitation.
    3. a thought; design or plan: to jot down one's cogitations.
    you sir have far too much time on your hands.

  11. #11
    aka bOb
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    Quote Originally Posted by nvphatty View Post
    you sir have far too much time on your hands.
    45 years old retired with 6 kids, Yes and no.

  12. #12
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    Bucksaw baby.

    Quote Originally Posted by jrahm View Post
    If any of you have been thinking about this, I'd be interested in your observations. I am migrating to an FS fat bike...Bucksaw or Fatmoth. It may be a can't-go-wrong kind of decision, probably would love either. At the moment I am on a 2007 29er ti racer-x, 4" bike, pretty light and nimble but not so stiff and actually a bit too small. I am selling it.

    I enjoy aggressive descending and expect either bike would serve in terms of grip and travel, but what I am newly interested in is bushwhacking. I live in the Ponderosa forest, the high desert of Oregon, often big scattered trees with relatively open ground below. To just get on the bike and go, that's the dream. That said, there's 400 miles of great singletrack of all kinds within 30 miles of where I live (Bend/Sisters OR).

    I suspect the Salsa will be a bit more agile, shorter wheelbase and chain stays. Maybe a little bigger tire patch, so more float in snow or sand. Lenz rolls over stuff better and may climb better (bigger wheels) and with more travel probably bombs rough descents better. I have heard from the Krampus guys about the grip of the Knards.

    Both brands have stellar reputations and make great bikes. Lenz is $500 more. Maybe this is mostly a wheel size decision. Any thoughts?

    thanks
    John


    I broke my Beargrease frame and decided to go Bucksaw because we bought one for my wife, had a custom shop carve out the rear triangle and hooked up a set of 29+ ers to it. What a great setup. Sure stopped me from having to look back to see where she is because anytime there is a downward slope...I'm looking at her backside.

    Just picked up my carbon bucksaw frame...mounted all my Beargrease gear to it and found heaven on earth.
    Yes, everything was perfect in life and no further upgrades were needed...the flowers smelled better, the air was crisper, hell, I even looked kind of handsome in the mirror...and then my lbs says...hey Todd, check out these 650 B+s.
    Crap! They were like riding a pillowy freight train or something. I mean, I know the bike is heavier thank my mtb but who cares. so what if the climbs take a couple seconds longer. At the top, you just point and...dang...look out below lol.
    The tubeless 3"ers just grab at everything. And that back end squats and kicks me out of the turns like some kind of slingshot or something. I don't know how to explain it really. Freight train and slingshot aren't typically used to describe the same thing...I'll just say the search for my perfect ride is over.
    4" til spring then...B+ for me for the summer. Talk about a quiver killer.

  13. #13
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    sorry to the OP and errbody else...'freight train' derail ahead...

    ToddyB, your broken Beargrease = carbon or alu? Details? PM me if you like. I am so NOT trying to start sh*t by asking. Let's just call it curiosity for now.

    EDIT: Nevermind, I found a few threads with enough info and idiocy to answer my questions. Beargrease wasn't on my radar at all until a few days ago. Feel free to reply here but it's not on me at this point if it incites a material-brand-bashing holy war.

  14. #14
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    Fatbikes, for now, are limited in fork travel and fork selection. That's almost sure to change, but for now...

    29+ is limited in tire options compared to fatbikes. That too will change, but it appears to me that 27.5+ will be better supported. 29+ dedicated or 27+ wheelset on a fatty is splitting hairs. The magic is in the volume and tread design, not the precise diameter. Frankly, undersized 26 fat rubber on a 47mm rim is a dynamite summer tire.

    29+ is NOT a snow bike, unless you intend on exclusively well packed groomers.

  15. #15
    All Lefty's, all the time Moderator
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    29+ is where I spend the vast bulk of my time, especially since the DW's finally hit, damn that tire is insane.

    I can't see losing a blessed mm of OD, so why would I want to lose some to B+ is beyond me.

    100% agreement. any + does not equal fat in actual conditions.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  16. #16
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    Beargrease rocks!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by frozenmonkey View Post
    sorry to the OP and errbody else...'freight train' derail ahead...

    ToddyB, your broken Beargrease = carbon or alu? Details? PM me if you like. I am so NOT trying to start sh*t by asking. Let's just call it curiosity for now.

    EDIT: Nevermind, I found a few threads with enough info and idiocy to answer my questions. Beargrease wasn't on my radar at all until a few days ago. Feel free to reply here but it's not on me at this point if it incites a material-brand-bashing holy war.
    No holy war needed my BG was the love of my life (shhhhh...Tammy's still sleeping) until she fell off the back of my truck at 65-70mph on the highway. She was carbon and just a great bike...a great bike...that I would recommend to anyone.

    The rides I've talked about on the Bucksaw were all test rides from my lbs. Last night I brought home all my BG gear attached to a bran-spankin new carbon Bucksaw frame...kinda like an organ donor program...My BG has set me up with a mini version of that crazy-priced Bucksaw. On her way out. I hate to say this but, falling out of my truck was the best thing that ever happened to my BG. I would have never looked at another bike if that hadn't happened. I was totally happy with that rigid rear end until I rode that squishy thing. Now, i hope I never have to go back.
    This coming from an almost 48 year young, ex-fullback, ex-middle linebacker, ex-wrestler, ex-general badass that thinks if a shark bit his leg off while swimming, he could wrap some duct tape around the stump and finish the day. Seriously, I always kinda thought you guys on the FS bikes where kinda soft. Now I've realized...your all just smarter than me

  17. #17
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    The best thing about the BS suspension is that it disappears...you don't even notice it working. But man, does it ever.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by sisu View Post
    The best thing about the BS suspension is that it disappears...you don't even notice it working. But man, does it ever.
    I have that long ride hangover today from spending 5 1/2 hours on my Bucksaw yesterday. Love it.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by sisu View Post
    The best thing about the BS suspension is that it disappears...you don't even notice it working.

    Okay, so I'm not sure how to get into this without starting a flame fest, but you are correct. However, I wouldn't say it's the best thing about it, I'd say it's the worst. FOR, ME!!!!!

    Great bike, well made, beautiful workmanship etc.

    But coming from a long line of bikes that I can feel the sus working, I find this utterly disconcerting. I use that *motion* for working the bike in corners, popping over logs, etc.

    Without it, the bike feels dead. Like a hard tail that somehow absorbs bumps when you aren't looking. I'm running it about 40 under recommended pressure just to get some sort of "feel". Large hits, I get some, small to mid, it's like there's nothing happening.

    Not saying it's bad design or anything like that, but I've been holding my tongue as I didn't want to appear to be crapping on the design, because I'm not.

    Can anyone speak to the fact that this is what Dave Weagle is seeking in his designs?

    As it is now, it's a fun bike, but it sits, I just really prefer a more active feeling design.

    Well there, I said it, feel better too

    This is a discussion opener, nothing more, color me curious. I generally look at this as a chocolate vs vanilla sort of thing.....
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  20. #20
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    Interesting stuff, Craig. I wonder if the Pony Rustler will be more to your liking, with the additional travel. I'm going to ride one today, if the queue to ride it isn't a mile long.

    My FS 29er is a carbon Scalpel, and that suspension also disappears for me (and not because I lock it out, which I do on almost every ride). So maybe I'm used to suspensions that aren't very active feeling,

  21. #21
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    I rode an fsr for over a decade. That was a VERY active suspension. I always felt it compress whether I wanted to feel it or not. It was okay but could be annoying in pedaly situations.

    The Bucksaw is different. I am beginning to get a better feel for the suspension and am using the adjusters more when I want to firm things up on long climbs or open them up on long downhills. But my local trails have lots of short hills so I rarely mess with things at home. I feel a general firmness of smoothness to the suspension on the terrain but I do not feel specific shock compression. I like it that way really.

  22. #22
    This place needs an enema
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    coming from a long line of bikes that I can feel the sus working, I find this utterly disconcerting. I use that *motion* for working the bike in corners, popping over logs, etc.

    Without it, the bike feels dead.
    Zackly. My first ride on a 'saw I didn't much care for--attributed it largely to the heavy/slow tires w/tubes.

    Next ride was a month+ later, and on a pimped out rocket of a 'saw with carbon hoops, go-fast tubeless tires, etc... Honestly didn't feel much different. No matter how much energy I poured into the pedals, or into moving the bike around beneath me, I didn't feel any return on that investment. Like a black hole.

    I too come from a long line of active suspension designs, and love to use the suspension to hop and pop and keep the ride lively. Simply wasn't possible to do on the 'saw. In short, it seemed to reward a sit-and-plow rider. I can be that guy at the end of a long day, or a long week, but it's not why I ride bikes.

    FatMoth and Fatillac are polar opposites to this feel. Very active, very lively, very spirited. You can sit and plow on these bikes too, but they beg for a more active/aggressive style to bring out their best.

    My $.02.

    I don't think this dead feeling is a trait common to all Weagle bikes. The DW Turner Sultan I spent time on had an *incredibly* active feel. Like few other bikes I've ridden. Wonder if the King Khan shares that attribute?

    If I owned a Bucksaw I'd have invested in a Cane Creek Inline by now, or at the very least would have fiddled bunches with the standard shock tune, air volume, etc...

  23. #23
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    Dead feel? Not my experience at all but I'm running 650B plus carbon rims. It is the most pumpy jumpy BMXish bike I've ever had. Super fun & agile. The B plus has same diameter as standard 29er and for our tight and twisty New England trails I have no interest in larger wheels.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by sisu View Post
    Interesting stuff, Craig. I wonder if the Pony Rustler will be more to your liking, with the additional travel.
    My FS 29er is a carbon Scalpel, and that suspension also disappears for me (and not because I lock it out, which I do on almost every ride). So maybe I'm used to suspensions that aren't very active feeling,
    I don't think it's a travel issue, I had 100 mm Super V's BITD that felt much more active than this. Heck, my 90 mm ProFlex 957 felt like it had more travel activity!

    The Scalpel, current version, I have ridden, and it's decidedly less active in many ways than bikes I prefer, but it's designed that way for the XC rocket racers who want minimal monkey motion (not me). It does have some of the feeling I'm missing though, a little bit of settling back and in into travel if you will. Feedback might be another way to express it.

    The BS just doesn't talk at all.

    I have a FatMoth so going to smaller B+ wheels makes no sense to me (nor am I looking for a proper feeling "replacement" for the 'Saw). I spent a solid month on the BS just getting fully settled into it, then took a ride on my 'Moth and felt like I'd finally come home. Just railed it that night, so much more confident feeling.

    Figured I'd bring it up, as a few have asked me offline, my thoughts, and I've seen several folks mention this feeling in a positive way so I knew I wasn't crazy, and also understand that what one person sees as a negative, could well be viewed as a positive by others.

    Salsa deserves a lot of credit for sticking their neck out, as well as doubling down on Rock Shox to get the Bluto going, so I didn't want to start a Bucksaws suck thing, cause this isn't that.

    I just really don't see myself using it much until the snow flies and the folks hit our trails with boots and no snow shoes and post hole the living hell out of them. Sadly, it won't suck up the bumps in a way that I'm accustomed to, so I'm left hoping the next FS fattie design will come from someone who thinks bikes should ride the way I like them to!

    Curious that other DW's don't ride like this does Mike. I figured it had to just be his special sauce if you will.

    I know there's much ado made of how much time they spent tuning it to work "with the big tires" and, as someone who's been playing with suspended fatties for almost 5 years, maybe I'm just simple minded, or not educated enough to appreciate the nuances of suspension and tires the way the pro's are, but I seem to be able to get a Lefty built for "skinnies" to ride like a damn laser guided missile with no ill effects brought on by the larger tires, so it does make me wonder what in the heck they were searching for, and what characteristics they were seeking to tune out, that conventional suspension couldn't.....

    Funny, it's not like I can just call someone at Salsa and have a conversation, it would all just be cloaked in marketing BS I fear. I'm literally just curious, because it's so starkly different feeling to me, and I can't figure out why, or how to make it work the way I want.

    Anyone else notice the rebound on the rear has little impact? I realized I had it jacked to fully slow, just got there a click or two at a time as I rode and tweaked, yet was still get bucked (pardoning the pun) over larger hits, I would have figured it'd certainly be slow and sluggish feeling by that point.

    I may talk to RS about tweaking this unit, maybe increasing air volume if possible, something. Mike, got a customer on a Cane Creek, he's not yet in love, and comes from a Moto back ground where tuning is the norm. Not sure I want to sink that much jack into a bike that I appreciate, but don't feel is a keeper long term.

    Tell Devin to get busy, will ya?
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    I rode an fsr for over a decade. That was a VERY active suspension. I always felt it compress whether I wanted to feel it or not. It was okay but could be annoying in pedaly situations.

    The Bucksaw is different. I am beginning to get a better feel for the suspension and am using the adjusters more when I want to firm things up on long climbs or open them up on long downhills. But my local trails have lots of short hills so I rarely mess with things at home. I feel a general firmness of smoothness to the suspension on the terrain but I do not feel specific shock compression. I like it that way really.
    I never liked the FSR. Sits me too upright and high in corners.

    That said, I'd be curious if yours was "pre Brain"?

    Assuming it was, I'd venture a guess, you'd probably like it with the Brain a lot more.

    I'd go so far as to say the Brain feels a lot like a BS. No appreciable suspension action till you hit a big enough bump.....

    Mine's a lot softer than suggested, and yes, I too fiddle with the lockout lever a fair bit to throttle it into shape for different ride situations too.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by radair View Post
    Dead feel? Not my experience at all but I'm running 650B plus carbon rims. It is the most pumpy jumpy BMXish bike I've ever had. Super fun & agile. The B plus has same diameter as standard 29er and for our tight and twisty New England trails I have no interest in larger wheels.
    Not a wheel/tire thing at all, it's a sus design thing......

    And yes, fun and agile for sure, just that the squish isn't squishing the way I like squish to squish!
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    I never liked the FSR. Sits me too upright and high in corners.

    That said, I'd be curious if yours was "pre Brain"?

    Assuming it was, I'd venture a guess, you'd probably like it with the Brain a lot more.

    I'd go so far as to say the Brain feels a lot like a BS. No appreciable suspension action till you hit a big enough bump.....

    Mine's a lot softer than suggested, and yes, I too fiddle with the lockout lever a fair bit to throttle it into shape for different ride situations too.
    Yes my fsr is pre brain. By a good bit. I rode a 1st gen brain on an epic bitd and HATED it for what that's worth.

  28. #28
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    Ha! At least we can agree the Brain, ain't all it's cracked up to be....

    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  29. #29
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    Huh, this is an interesting read. I love my Bucksaw, I don't feel the suspension at all, and I can't say that's good or bad, just the way this bike rides. I don't consider it a dead ride (until next time I ride it and I think about this thread :-D).

    When I rode my friend's Enduro 29er, I definitely felt the suspension way more than the Bucksaw. I also felt like the Bucksaw absorbed the small hits way better than the Enduro. I rode some really technical stuff today - certainly the Bucksaw worked as well or better than any bike there.

  30. #30
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    I was thinking about this discussion while I was out riding today. A very xc-ish trail, but one with lots of rocks. Not big, chunky stuff for the most part. More crumbly rock, some of it loose. A few areas with flat, smooth slabs and small drops.

    I would agree that the suspension design of the BS is beneficial for sitting and pedaling. I don't tend to stand and power through things much. When I stand on the BS, I'm usually either coasting or doing more of a low gear rock crawling type of riding. I wouldn't call the bike dead feeling in the rear end, though. Definitely wouldn't go that far. I DO feel it squishing if I do things to try to feel it squish. It's just that with the way I ride, it does its thing quite seamlessly and it winds up benefiting me rather than noticeably serving as an impediment. My old FSR can do both, depending on the situation. Part of that may well be the shocks in question. My old FSR really doesn't have any compression damping of any sort and you can tell.

    I do sort of have a wild hair to upgrade the rear shock on my BS to a Cane Creek DBInline. That will be awhile, though. I have several purchases higher on the priority list, with a teardrop camper slated for a late fall/winter purchase.

  31. #31
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    I was also thinking about this on yesterday's ride and I think I understand what Mike & Craig mean. There is no ejector seat type rebound. It's not a springy or bouncy rear suspension but it works just fine for me.

  32. #32
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    Definitely first world problems we're talking about here!

    It works, absolutely.

    I think I'm just at a point in my riding where I've tried a mess of different suspension, and when something comes along and works altogether differently, it makes me go "huh", and wonder why it does that, and is it on purpose, if so why, etc.

    FWIW, rode a buddies Niner something or other a few years ago, it felt similarly, but far worse. Like it was great for soaking up big hits, but just ignored small to mid sized ones.

    Any rate, appreciate the input all!
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  33. #33
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    I keep thinking about this thread! I've had a lot of different suspension types over the years, including the invisible/rigid kind. I guess I've kind of adapted to each and figured out how to ride them.

    I see what Mike & Craig are saying - they have found the type of suspension that works for them and want a bike that acts a certain way. I guess I'm not like that, I ride a new bike figure out how to get the most out of it and go from there. In my last 6 or so bike purchases I only rode one of them for a significant time in the woods before buying it (demo RIP9), and there have been some very different bikes (RIP9, RacerX, Enduro, Rocky Mountain Switch). I guess I would be a terrible bike reviewer as I was happy with every one of those purchases!

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jisch View Post
    I guess I would be a terrible bike reviewer as I was happy with every one of those purchases!
    Based on what I've seen from magazine bike reviews (*coughMBAcough*), I think that makes you perfectly suited to write bike reviews!

  35. #35
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    Ha!

    "This bike is weird, but I got used to it and I love it" - summary of every bike review I would write.

  36. #36
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    Bikes are fun, bike riding is fun.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jisch View Post
    they have found the type of suspension that works for them and want a bike that acts a certain way.
    Yep, having had a few custom frames built at this point, I definitely have preferences in terms of handling etc.

    No right or wrong, whatever blows your hair back.

    Yeah, you'd make a fine reviewer, as long as the company you were reviewing had their advertising bill paid up, you're reviews would be spot on...
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jisch View Post
    they have found the type of suspension that works for them and want a bike that acts a certain way.
    Errr, sorta, but not exactly. I've ridden a lot of bikes, and typically if the geometry is close to what I like then I can tune (and/or adapt) the suspension to work. For me, geo is always #1 priority, and suspension design/action/"kinematics" a far distant second. I hated the Turner geo but the suspension was incredible. The Bucksaw geo was tolerable, but the sus was just a non-starter. If I'm carting around the added mass of FS, or fat wheels/tires, there damn well better be an advantage to doing so. There simply was no benefit to the sus on the 'saw, not in stock trim anyway.

    Bet you could work around that with a DB Inline or (at minimum) a whole lotta internal fiddling with the stock damper.

  39. #39
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    To say there is no advantage to the suspension on the Bucksaw is too big a step for me.

    Not that Strava is the be all/end all for how fast you're going, but I have set a lot of Personal Records on this bike and I'm having a blast on it (the two are likely linked), but if the suspension added nothing then my times on my Fatboy would be better than the times on my Bucksaw. Certainly air time is way more fun (well the landings) on the Bucksaw than the Fatboy.

    I was headed out for a solo ride at a local place on Saturday morning. It was just a fun, clear my head, clear the trails (recent wind storm) type ride, I knew I wouldn't be hammering. I had the Fatboy off the pegs, but at the last minute I decided to take the Bucksaw, it's just a lot more comfortable and fun than the Fatboy.

  40. #40
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    I also found the BS not to my liking, it felt flat in the back end, not dead, just "not there". I ride an Atlas 29 CF with the same suspension and I like how it rides though it bobs a bit in certain gears. I'm not sure if it's just due to the BS having less travel than I'm used or something else.

    The Mutz has a single pivot, it doesn't bob, it can be set up active or supple, and it climbs very well. I'm not sure how that's possible considering it's such a simple design, but it works and that's what matters.

    I'd be curious to try a Turner KK, but I have yet to even see one.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Errr, sorta, but not exactly. I've ridden a lot of bikes, and typically if the geometry is close to what I like then I can tune (and/or adapt) the suspension to work. For me, geo is always #1 priority, and suspension design/action/"kinematics" a far distant second. I hated the Turner geo but the suspension was incredible. The Bucksaw geo was tolerable, but the sus was just a non-starter. If I'm carting around the added mass of FS, or fat wheels/tires, there damn well better be an advantage to doing so. There simply was no benefit to the sus on the 'saw, not in stock trim anyway.

    Bet you could work around that with a DB Inline or (at minimum) a whole lotta internal fiddling with the stock damper.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jisch View Post
    To say there is no advantage to the suspension on the Bucksaw is too big a step for me.
    From your perspective (you're already invested) that makes sense.

    From the perspective of someone looking to buy, it's hard to think of the 'saw as worth the $$$$ in stock trim.

    In other words I'm not right, and you're not wrong, we're just looking at the coin from opposite sides.

  42. #42
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    Agreed, I'm invested $$$, but I'm also having a blast.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jisch View Post
    To say there is no advantage to the suspension on the Bucksaw is too big a step for me...
    I'm also "invested", but ride any hardtail on nasty postholed snow, then ride the BS and tell me there's no advantage. Not buying it.

  44. #44
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    There is clearly an advantage to riding an FS fatty, but it varies greatly based on the user and the use.

    I use my Mutz for everything, bike park, tech riding, XC. It's a bit of pig for some uses, but it's a good climber, and point it downhill and it rips.

    The only thing holding the FS fatties back is the lack of a good fork. The BS sucks, even with a rebuild it is still sticky.I want a good 140mm fork, then I'll bump the travel to 5.5" out back, that ought bring it together.

    Quote Originally Posted by radair View Post
    I'm also "invested", but ride any hardtail on nasty postholed snow, then ride the BS and tell me there's no advantage. Not buying it.

  45. #45
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    I use the BS for all my riding as well. Mostly that's very technical XC with lots of short, punchy climbs and descents. I ride with some fast riders and I can find no evidence this bike is slowing me down. Does that mean I'm in front of the fast riders? Nope and I could be on a motorcycle and probably not be in front of them. I'm not a racer so my ultimate goal is NOT winning or whatever, but part of me "having fun" is going fast, and I wouldn't be happy if I felt a bike was making me go slower.

    I've done a very small amount of DH on it, but not enough to be able to make any judgement there.

    I ride for one reason - to have fun and the Bucksaw delivers (to me) big time, but that's just me. I liked it a lot more once I put less aggressive and lighter tires on it.

    Hopefully this doesn't sound defensive. Of course I'm defending my purchase to some degree, but if I had a problem with it I'd post up here.

    Oh yeah - pedal strikes, I have had some painful pedal strikes. I haven't checked the BB height against any of my other bikes.

  46. #46
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    What I didn't, and don't, want, is for this to mean any owner should feel the need to defend their bike, sell it, regret it's purchase, etc. And, if you did based on my personal feelings, I'd really be uncomfortable!!!

    If it makes you smile, not much else matters.

    This really is more of conversation along the lines of, what tire works best for X conditions, etc. Many differing opinions out there on just about anything.

    I'd simply seen the comment about the suspension "not being there, being invisible, disappearing underneath me" etc enough to feel my observations were not unfounded, and thought it time to bring them out, since no one seemed to be talking about that aspect, just saying it in passing, and to me, it's not desirable trait.

    Knowing how may folks out there love their Spesh Brains, or Fox Terra Logics though (both designs I personally can't stand) I know there's way more room on the dance floor than just my personal space.....

    I'd love to try a Mutz some time, I do prefer single pivots without a bunch of controlling devices to minimize what I feel,makes them so great for the way I ride.

    If yer happy and you know it ride yer 'Saw!
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  47. #47
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    This thread hasn't diminished my love of the BS at all - it did make me think about how it rides and works, anything that makes me think is a good thing.

    To me the BS brings the fat tire traction, cornering and low bump absorption that I love together with a little bit of forgiveness in the back that allows me to go faster. Maybe I'd love the Mutz more than the BS? Maybe that will be my next bike, who knows.

  48. #48
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    A design as basic as the BS should react just fine to shock mods by Push and Avalanche. In stock trim, it's not going to do well with sharp edged hits due to the low pivot, the inherent compression damping and preloaded valves (platforms) that come on most air shocks make this even worse. Like an FSR, up steep stuff, it should squat, again the low pivot is likely the culprit, the harder you try to pedal up a steep incline, the more if fights back and absorbs energy. Again, a good shock tune will usually help with this, although not completely erase it. Unfortunately, most bike designs haven't caught up with the single-ring setups being used out there and manufacturers are resistant to designing separate versions of the same thing for 2, 3 and 1 ring setups. Using a single ring setup on a bike designed to climb in the granny will result in worse pedaling attributes usually. It's too expensive for the shock and frame manufacturers to get together and "tune" the shock for the rider and bike, so they do mass produced one-size-fits-all, reacting to what they think the majority of the buyers want (platforms, etc.). With a good shock tune you can usually have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too. The CCDB pioneered being able to offer this without a custom tune, although it's still not as good as a custom tune, but it was a good start. The Fox X2 looks to build on this, but in any case, I'd recommend a good custom tune or at least a higher end shock to get the most out of the bike, either that or live with it. It's not the most advanced suspension design obviously, but it IS suspension and it should work decently most of the time, as there are no glaring design issues with that configuration.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  49. #49
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    Thanks for this discussion. My build is currently on the stand. My point of comparison will be Giant Maestro. All good food for thought and glad to see many have various interpretations of what and how it is working.

    This is a thinking man's thread in an era of, "just tell me what I should buy."

  50. #50
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    Thanks Jayem, good thoughts.

    I guess I was really putting this out there because there's so much splatter from Salsa/DW about how much work went into it, how many versions of the shock, how they custom spec'd the longer rear end of the shock, etc etc etc. It puts me into a mindset of "well, if they put that much into it, this must be exactly what they were going for"....

    Which is fine if that's the case, and it's opposed to what your implying, which is, they made a bike, and plugged a rear shock into it, so naturally, it can be made to work better. I tend to agree, that tuning is often required to get it to work just right (it's what I do with Leftys for folks all day long).

    I guess I was just curious if I was missing the point, having not ridden any of DW's rigs before if this was really his vision, and therefore, just not my flavor, or if tuning the shock would net anything since supposedly, the sus design was so thought through it might mute any attempts to tweak it.

    May just all be marketing, I've no idea......

    Jisch, Mike coined a phrase (I think at least, it was his phrase) "thinkering", and yep, basically what I'm doing out loud, come on along for the ride if you like
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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