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  1. #1
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    Best potential upgrade - a Stan's fat rim?

    Hi guys,

    Is it just me, or would you love to see Stan's make a tubeless-specific fat rim? Probably won't happen in a million years, but boy would it be a nice option. Something in the 55-65mm range (leave the hundies for winter riding with inner tubes). Not only does ther rim design itself lend to low weight, but the rim tape is light, and you completely take the tube out of the equation (vs ghetto split tubeless). And that's a heavy tube to take out.

    Seems like an ideal summer wheel set with the hub of your choice. Then you can have your 80-100mm rims and BFL's for winter time. C'mon Stan's, you'd sell tens of rims to all the guys on this forum...

  2. #2
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    I'm in, makes perfect sense to me, but will all current tyre options stand up to being tubeless?

    Like to see Surly deliver this though!

    Been lots on this forum on this subject, would be interesting to see what you get back on this.
    Leave nothing but footprints & take nothing but photographs.

  3. #3
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    Stan's rims with tubeless setup are awesome. I am currently using them on my 29er and roadie. They allow the tires to run at much lower pressure. I believe when it gets more popular to race in a fat bike, more companies will produce light weight fat rims for racing and tubeless fat rim might be in the horizon.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surlynot View Post
    I'm in, makes perfect sense to me, but will all current tyre options stand up to being tubeless?

    Like to see Surly deliver this though!

    Been lots on this forum on this subject, would be interesting to see what you get back on this.
    As of today, there have been a handful of folks setting up 3.7-4.5" tires tubeless with varying degrees of success. Most setups involve some combination of foam, gorilla tape, split tube, etc. It can be done, you're just not saving any weight over a standard inner tube setup (or not saving much).

    I'd love to see Stan's make a tubeless-specific rim that would allow you to get rid of all of this stuff (similar to what their current rims do - just wider). Call it a double-wide-Flow.

  5. #5
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    I shudder to think what it would cost, seeing as how Stan's rims are twice as much as most rims.

    "Yes please, I'd like to order two XL Blow rims. How much? $225?? Each???"

    BTW, I have a few sets of Stan's wheels for my 29ers, and setting them up tubeless is anywhere from 5 minutes to more than an hour each, so it's no guarantee that a fat Stan's would be cake.

  6. #6
    is buachail foighneach me
    Reputation: sean salach's Avatar
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    Speedway rims from the last two years can be setup tubeless with just a layer of tape to cover the holes... Tight bead seat and an internal lip. They were making 50mm rims, not sure if Greg's concentrating on the narrow stuff anymore though.

  7. #7
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    There's something I don't like about the current tubeless experiments so far -- and I mean that objectively, not as a diss. Heck, my first experiment failed.

    Fat tires deal with lower pressure than any Stan's wheel. Unique problems might need a unique solution -- or not. What have ATVs and Jeeps been doing? Mechanical, multi-piece bead locks. Such a fat bike rim simply does not exist.

    I have three ideas on paper and one in the jig, but I aim to take a stab at this problem. Even if it ends up being heavier than normally tubed wheels. I did NOT like getting a pinch flat out in the cold, thankfully the few times were close to home.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Diller View Post
    ........ I did NOT like getting a pinch flat out in the cold, thankfully the few times were close to home.
    I agree. Also, I've noticed when you air down you can hear the tire and tube rubbing against each other. That friction could cause issues as well if you spend a lot of time in the fluff.

  9. #9
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    Baby powder the tubes will help with the friction. Also you could remove the valve core and add some stans just for a little backup (done that with tubluar cyclocross tires). I am not sure the stan's works well at low low temps. I did turn my studded nokians 29er Stans, and didn't have any issues all last two winters. Lowest I ever hit with that bike was 10 degrees.
    Perfect number of bikes (n) + 1

  10. #10
    Fatback
    Reputation: thirstywork's Avatar
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    I ran my 70's tubeless (not ghetto) all last year and designed the 90mm rims to go tubeless.
    The 90's were run as low as 2psi without burping.
    Speedway Cycles owner http://fatbackbikes.com

  11. #11
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    I'd be happy if Surly would hurry up and release the Marge Lites already!
    Right now would be good.

    Thank you.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuxdiesel View Post
    I shudder to think what it would cost, seeing as how Stan's rims are twice as much as most rims.

    "Yes please, I'd like to order two XL Blow rims. How much? $225?? Each???"
    Surly's Clown Shoes are listing for $200 each.
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  13. #13
    All Lefty's, all the time Moderator
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    I have a bit over 100 miles on Uma 90's right now, and without snow, I've been trail riding them in the dirt. At around 8PSI I have hit these as hard and fast as I can, and have zero issues with burps, slipping, flats etc.

    The bead retension is fantastic.

    That being said, I took down one of my foam/split tube ghetto set ups when I built the Uma's, and it was easily as tight, and the bead had sealed like glue to the tube with the Stans present, so it's likely going to work well too for those interested in a cheaper alternative.

    My take, the tubeless feel is very different and nice, the weight is a part of it, but the more supple ride is pretty awesome regardless of split tube or Uma.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  14. #14
    @adelorenzo
    Reputation: anthony.delorenzo's Avatar
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    The thought of dealing with tire issues at 40 below gives me the Fear. I love tubeless for many reasons but I don't see myself ever going that way on the fatbike.

  15. #15
    is buachail foighneach me
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    Just as easy, if not easier to get a flat with a tube at -40. I would imagine anyone fatbiking with tubeless carries a spare tube or two with them.

  16. #16
    All Lefty's, all the time Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by anthony.delorenzo View Post
    The thought of dealing with tire issues at 40 below gives me the Fear. I love tubeless for many reasons but I don't see myself ever going that way on the fatbike.
    Having now set up several of these, which involves installing a tube first to get the beads seated, then removing the tube, whilst leaving one bead hooked in.This helps with tire seating when setting up tubeless.

    All that said, in a flat situation, I'm pretty confident that in about 3 to 4 minutes, I could change a flat. Crack one side open (screw cleaning the spooge, that can be done later) remove the valve, slip a MTB tube in (since they take up less room, and thus slip in easier), reset the bead (pretty loose on these actually) and hit it with a 40 gram CO2. Bam, done.

    I guess if flats never ever happen when it's -40F, I could understand the reticence, but this is actually just as fast, or faster, to do a repair on.

    Not saying you must adopt of course, just relating my very fresh experiences, having built and set up 6 of these in the last few weeks, and thinking about trail side service as I did......
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  17. #17
    @adelorenzo
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    I've had two flats in five years of riding. Both were caused by ultra-low pressures that I do not run anymore. One from the tube rubbing the tire, and one from the sidewall splitting open.

    As far as I am concerned, given the size and weight of the tires, one flat is too many. I only ride on snow with some ice, snowy pavement, icy pavement, snowy ice etc thrown in... If I was trail riding on dirt, rocks, roots then my perspective would probably be different.

    I'm totally all over the tubeless bandwagon but I'm sceptical it's the way to go on fat bikes, at least for me.

    Looking forward to hearing more reports though. If you guys over in Alaska can get through the winter on a tubeless setup I'll definitely rethink it.

  18. #18
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    I'm interested in what solutions the 4WD and ATV types use in the high Arctic conditions. I recall seeing a TopGear episode where they reinflated a "flat" tire by igniting some kind of gas (propane?) and the tire inflated instantly. Just saying :-)

  19. #19
    addicted to chunk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Diller View Post
    There's something I don't like about the current tubeless experiments so far -- and I mean that objectively, not as a diss. Heck, my first experiment failed.

    Fat tires deal with lower pressure than any Stan's wheel. Unique problems might need a unique solution -- or not. What have ATVs and Jeeps been doing? Mechanical, multi-piece bead locks. Such a fat bike rim simply does not exist.

    I have three ideas on paper and one in the jig, but I aim to take a stab at this problem. Even if it ends up being heavier than normally tubed wheels. I did NOT like getting a pinch flat out in the cold, thankfully the few times were close to home.

    You have to compare the weight of these vehicles compared to a bicycle....might have something to do with needing the mechanical bead lock???
    Riding.....

  20. #20
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    Rims are not the limiter with fat tubeless. It's the tires that aren't up to the task, or the fact that we (collectively) have issues with accepting a few grams here and there, so the tire manufacturers have slowly gotten gun-shy about releasing anything other than a weight-weenie version of any given tire. ~1500g seems heavy for a BFL, but think about how light that actually is relative to a standard 2.1 tubeless tire. Really, really stinkin' light. I ride 2.5's on my daily driver FS bike that are within 10% of that, at *HALF* the width and air volume.

    In order to arrive at a light tire you need a lighter casing, less rubber overall, and even a lighter bead. Point for point these items are the exact *opposite* of what you want for a durable, supple, non-wormy tubeless tire.

    I think it's great that folks are getting fat tires to hold air untubed, but I think that's the smallest part of the equation. Getting reasonable durability and good ride quality at low pressure is much harder to achieve. Those two are subjective and vastly different for everyone: IMO the current crop of tires CANNOT give either when run without a tube for support. Until we see vastly different tire construction, I'm content to run Surly Lite tubes. For where, what, and how I like to ride, they give wiggle-free casings and 99.7% flat free riding, regardless of ambient temps or low-single-digit pressures.

    MC

  21. #21
    Doesntplaywellwithmorons!
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    I've done tubeless sealant in winter before around studded tires. Go the mold builder latex mix route and use winter grade washer fluid with it. You could also use automotive slime which while it thickens in the cold, tends not to actually freeze. You can also pre-coat the bead edges with the black tar-like sealant compound used in car garages for tire installations to prevent leaks.
    I don't post to generate business for myself or make like I'm better than sliced bread

  22. #22
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    I just add some sealant inside the tubes for a trouble free solution...no fat tire flats since.

    I have to agree with Mike here...if you want a tubeless setup, the tires need some re-thinking.


  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by anthony.delorenzo View Post
    The thought of dealing with tire issues at 40 below gives me the Fear. I love tubeless for many reasons but I don't see myself ever going that way on the fatbike.
    I agree. One can patch a tube 100 times, if a tire gets a cut you can stick something in there to keep the tube from buldging out the hole, changing a tube is quick and sure. Fatbike tires are inherently slow, and (most) bikes relatively heavy. Is it worth it? When I upgrade things I start looking at $400 cranks, XTR cassettes and shifters, a Race Face Carbon Next seat post, maybe some Pauls Love Levers, etc. Just seems like better places to put the dough.
    "Go that way REAL FAST, if something gets in your way... turn".

  24. #24
    All Lefty's, all the time Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny settle View Post
    I agree. One can patch a tube 100 times, if a tire gets a cut you can stick something in there to keep the tube from buldging out the hole, changing a tube is quick and sure.
    No disrespect, but people are funny.

    I've heard the same arguments for years with MTB tubeless. If you're running tubeless, and get a flat, you have a tube with you, and you change it in the same time you would, if you were tubed, and got a flat.

    A tube does nothing to protect the tire, any more than tubeless does, so tire damage thoughts and repair concepts are equal too.

    By all means, anyone should run what they feel comfortable with, it makes no matter to me or anyone else, but the rationalizations for hauling a spare 500+ grams of rotational weight around should at least be based on actual issues.

    Mikesee I think comes up with the only honest argument, in that it doesn't work for the way he rides, in the areas he does.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  25. #25
    addicted to chunk
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny settle View Post
    Fatbike tires are inherently slow, and (most) bikes relatively heavy.
    I have to disagree with you on this....even though they look like monster trucks compared to normal bikes, they roll quite well. My average speed on my local trails actually increased from 9mph to 10 mph...maybe the fatty is just making me stronger, quicker?
    Mine hovers right around 30 lbs, & that is with a steel fork.
    Most people I ride with are surprised just how quick the bike is on singletrack.
    Riding.....

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