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  1. #1
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    Anyone ever bent a Pugsley fork?

    I finished my wife's SS Pug build today and promptly folded the front fork under hard braking. (Burnishing the brakes and testing for wheel flex under braking.)

    I Googled for bent Pugsley forks to see if there is a known problem and came up dry.

    The fork has 100mm dropout spacing with the holes for Anything Cages and no cantilever bosses
    . It folded right at the top of the brake mount/brace and a wrinkle extends to the edge of the bottom Anything Cage hole.

    It is unfortunately not clear to me that this is a manufacturing defect rather than a design defect and I'm a little afraid to replace the broken fork with one just like it. I can't help but wonder if a weakness was introduced with that bottom hole so close to the brake brace. It's pretty disconcerting to have folded the fork so easily.

    PS. I've never seen a bent fork that wasn't caused by an accident, usually bike vs. car. Have you?
    Last edited by bugshield; 12-11-2012 at 06:58 AM. Reason: Highlighted the fact that we are talking about 100mm forks.

  2. #2
    How much does it weigh?
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    Probably wasn't heat treated.

    Ask for warranty?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borgschulze View Post
    Probably wasn't heat treated.
    Hadn't thought of that. I wonder if there's a way to find out. I'll have to do some research. Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Borgschulze View Post
    Ask for warranty?
    My LBS is working on that for me.

  4. #4
    R.I.P. Pugsley.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bugshield View Post
    PS. I've never seen a bent fork that wasn't caused by an accident, usually bike vs. car. Have you?
    When i had a "bike meets bridgerail" moment my fork was unharmed (Maverick SC-32) But my frame buckled from the impact.

    But out of curiosity :
    How much do you weigh, maybe this had something to do with it as well ?
    And do you have some pictures ?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabies010 View Post
    When i had a "bike meets bridgerail" moment my fork was unharmed (Maverick SC-32) But my frame buckled from the impact.

    But out of curiosity :
    How much do you weigh, maybe this had something to do with it as well ?
    And do you have some pictures ?
    I think I had seen that thread; Didn't remember the fork being undamaged. I have not detected any damage to this frame.

    Here are a couple pics. I didn't embed them as they are pretty large for detail.

    http://sheepcamp.com/~ben/pics/BentFork/IMG_0611.jpg

    http://sheepcamp.com/~ben/pics/BentFork/IMG_0612.jpg

    I'm 215lbs.

  6. #6
    R.I.P. Pugsley.
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    I resized them for you.
    But damn, you are not even that heavy....
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Anyone ever bent a Pugsley fork?-bent-fork.jpg  

    Anyone ever bent a Pugsley fork?-bent-fork2.jpg  


  7. #7
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    Holy heck! Wow! That totally has to be a manufacture defect. I heard of frame failures at the point of disk brake attachment, which is why they now put on brake brace triangle gussets.

  8. #8
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    BTW, I released the skewer after to fact to take any load off the hub/rotor. I put the wheel on my truing stand and it's still true. I'm not entirely sure about the rotor but it's straight enough that no damage is obvious.

    Pretty crazy, eh?

  9. #9
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    Wow again...

    Quote Originally Posted by bugshield View Post
    BTW, I released the skewer after to fact to take any load off the hub/rotor. I put the wheel on my truing stand and it's still true. I'm not entirely sure about the rotor but it's straight enough that no damage is obvious.

    Pretty crazy, eh?
    ...I smell a recall coming! Definitely a mfg problem if not also a design problem.

    That's 215 lbs and not 215 kg right?!?!
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  10. #10
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    what size rotor is that. recently i tried to find out max rotor surly recommends for the moony and pugs fork. too big a rotor can put quite a bit of stress on those legs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kreater View Post
    what size rotor is that. recently i tried to find out max rotor surly recommends for the moony and pugs fork. too big a rotor can put quite a bit of stress on those legs.
    It's a 160. I should have gone bigger for the 100mm fork because it's a tight squeeze to get the wheel out.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borgschulze View Post
    Probably wasn't heat treated.
    Any info on identifying heat treated and untreated forks? I am, so far, unsuccessful in my search.

    I sure would like to identify the problem and be able to identify that the replacement does not have the problem.

    Thanks.

  13. #13
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    Me too. What build is it? I have a packaged Necro 2012 with the first Moonie fork. Aren't the new ones for 2013 offset like the reg Pugs are? Now I worry about my Moonie fork attached to my Necro.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nakedbabytoes View Post
    Me too. What build is it? I have a packaged Necro 2012 with the first Moonie fork. Aren't the new ones for 2013 offset like the reg Pugs are? Now I worry about my Moonie fork attached to my Necro.
    Mine was a custom build with a symmetrical 100mm fork. As far as I know all the prebuilt bikes come with 135mm forks. Not saying, but hoping the problem is limited. It seems like there would be more results for "bent pugsley fork" etc. in Google if it weren't.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by bugshield View Post
    I think I had seen that thread; Didn't remember the fork being undamaged. I have not detected any damage to this frame.

    Here are a couple pics. I didn't embed them as they are pretty large for detail.

    http://sheepcamp.com/~ben/pics/BentFork/IMG_0611.jpg

    http://sheepcamp.com/~ben/pics/BentFork/IMG_0612.jpg

    I'm 215lbs.
    Now THAT is a good brake!

    By the sounds of it, I'm glad you are OK. I ate dirt when a fork snapped on me earlier this year (not a steel fork, btw.) In a way, aren't you glad it happened to you and not your wife?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drevil View Post
    Now THAT is a good brake!

    By the sounds of it, I'm glad you are OK. I ate dirt when a fork snapped on me earlier this year (not a steel fork, btw.) In a way, aren't you glad it happened to you and not your wife?
    You are absolutely right on all points.

  17. #17
    How much does it weigh?
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    I'm not sure there is a way to check if it's been heat treated... other than destruction testing.

    I'll tell you what.. my Fatback carbon fork has taken plenty of stoppies on it without breaking.

    That Surly fork is extremely heavy... I'm 99.9% sure it wasn't heat treated or possible wrong material used.

  18. #18
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    It's the paper mache model, held together with paint and good intentions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Borgschulze View Post
    That Surly fork is extremely heavy... I'm 99.9% sure it wasn't heat treated or possible wrong material used.
    I've been using the same fork (new model, 100 mm spacing) with a 180 mm rotor for the last few months without any problems. It weighs 1090 grams so not "extremely heavy", I weigh 165 lbs.

    I notice more flex on the Surly fork than on my other steel fork (custom 29'er) so I get a lot more brake rub, but other than that it's been ok so far.

  20. #20
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    Eeeeegads!

    If I were Surly, I'd want that fork back for testing and discovery. No way with a puny 6" rotor that this should ever happen. Thank goodness it was steel. Rather frightening!

    I'm 240lbs, using Hayes Nine Carbons with 8" rotors on my Enabler fork with no problems like this, thankfully. However, there is a moderate amount of front flex (noticed on pavement). My real issueis that the brakes howl with light to moderate pressure and cause a reasonance throughtout the front end. More annoying than anything, and I'd like to find a solution.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rasse1977 View Post
    I've been using the same fork (new model, 100 mm spacing) with a 180 mm rotor for the last few months without any problems. It weighs 1090 grams so not "extremely heavy", I weigh 165 lbs.

    I notice more flex on the Surly fork than on my other steel fork (custom 29'er) so I get a lot more brake rub, but other than that it's been ok so far.
    Thanks for the additional data point. Obviously there are people out there who haven't had a problem but it's somewhat reassuring to hear from one. Would you say that yours has had an easy life or that if there was a problem you would likely know it?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by rasse1977 View Post
    I've been using the same fork (new model, 100 mm spacing) with a 180 mm rotor for the last few months without any problems. It weighs 1090 grams so not "extremely heavy", I weigh 165 lbs.

    I notice more flex on the Surly fork than on my other steel fork (custom 29'er) so I get a lot more brake rub, but other than that it's been ok so far.
    All the Surly forks I have picked up weighed more like 1400 grams Hah.

    Might have been old 1x1 fork though.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borgschulze View Post
    All the Surly forks I have picked up weighed more like 1400 grams Hah.

    Might have been old 1x1 fork though.
    Right now those extra 250 grams seem like they might have been worth something. IIRC I expected this fork to weigh 1168 and it came in at 1150 (uncut) on my scale.

    PS. I believe this fork (with Anything attachments and no cantilever bosses) is new this year.
    Last edited by bugshield; 11-17-2012 at 09:22 AM. Reason: PS

  24. #24
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    Yikes! That's a seriously bent fork.

    I've been abusing a Pugsley for 4yr+ and the fork looks perfect.

    I would imagine Surly will warranty that for you.
    Safe riding,

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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    Yikes! That's a seriously bent fork.

    I've been abusing a Pugsley for 4yr+ and the fork looks perfect.

    I would imagine Surly will warranty that for you.
    I think that goes without saying.

    The question is, Do I trust the replacement?

  26. #26
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    I knew the new xt brakes were strong but WOW

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  27. #27
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    Ask the manufacturer...

    Quote Originally Posted by bugshield View Post
    Any info on identifying heat treated and untreated forks? I am, so far, unsuccessful in my search.

    I sure would like to identify the problem and be able to identify that the replacement does not have the problem.

    Thanks.
    ...would be the best way. If you had access to a hardness testing machine you could sample the fork top to bottom and figure it out that way. Like with any of the gadgets on this page: Hardness Testers Portable Digital Bench Rockwell

    As far as what a manufacturer considers "heat treating" is wide open to interpretation; "heat treatment" can be used to make a part softer/harder (weaker/stronger) depending on the goal for the individual part. (A part that's too hard will fail by snapping whereas bending is a better way to have most things fail---stronger is not necessarily always better)

    Aluminum forks very likely have undergone post-fabrication heat treating, steel forks are a maybe. From what I can find with a quick google search is that some BMX forks receive heat treatment after welding; other MTB forks may be built with parts that have had heat treating prior to assembly---which the Mfgs interpret as the fork being "heat treated".

    The problem with this marketing ploy is that the heat treatment the fork blades have received (to relieve stress from the hydro-forming operation) is nullified when the blades are assembled---definitely in areas that are being welded; maybe in areas that have been brazed. The area that your fork folded is right between two such areas; the brake mount being welded and the bottle mount being brazed. The perfect storm for a stress riser---even with proper heat treatment that's where failure would be expected.

    How bicycle forks are tested is pretty interesting and revealing; here's a paper (fairly recent; 2010) from a couple of engineering students at WPI:

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...49y9h2Mx5jsPfw

    Well worth glancing through the 101 pages; especially the ASTM fork testing protocol posted in the appendix. Keep in mind that this test is mostly concerned with the fatigue life of bike forks; not so much the ultimate strength. What is most interesting is that this test was formulated before disk brakes were much in use; the loads created by their use are not considered at all. Perhaps these loads "fell through the cracks" at Surly also?
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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post
    ...would be the best way. If you had access to a hardness testing machine you could sample the fork top to bottom and figure it out that way. Like with any of the gadgets on this page: Hardness Testers Portable Digital Bench Rockwell

    As far as what a manufacturer considers "heat treating" is wide open to interpretation; "heat treatment" can be used to make a part softer/harder (weaker/stronger) depending on the goal for the individual part. (A part that's too hard will fail by snapping whereas bending is a better way to have most things fail---stronger is not necessarily always better)

    Aluminum forks very likely have undergone post-fabrication heat treating, steel forks are a maybe. From what I can find with a quick google search is that some BMX forks receive heat treatment after welding; other MTB forks may be built with parts that have had heat treating prior to assembly---which the Mfgs interpret as the fork being "heat treated".

    The problem with this marketing ploy is that the heat treatment the fork blades have received (to relieve stress from the hydro-forming operation) is nullified when the blades are assembled---definitely in areas that are being welded; maybe in areas that have been brazed. The area that your fork folded is right between two such areas; the brake mount being welded and the bottle mount being brazed. The perfect storm for a stress riser---even with proper heat treatment that's where failure would be expected.

    How bicycle forks are tested is pretty interesting and revealing; here's a paper (fairly recent; 2010) from a couple of engineering students at WPI:

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...49y9h2Mx5jsPfw

    Well worth glancing through the 101 pages; especially the ASTM fork testing protocol posted in the appendix. Keep in mind that this test is mostly concerned with the fatigue life of bike forks; not so much the ultimate strength. What is most interesting is that this test was formulated before disk brakes were much in use; the loads created by their use are not considered at all. Perhaps these loads "fell through the cracks" at Surly also?
    Very interesting. Thank you for posting.

    Having Googled a bit for things like "surly" and "heat treated fork" it is not immediately clear to me that Surly claims this or any fork is heat treated. Most of the results reference the chainstays of the 1x1. I wonder if the heat treating angle has only been dropped by the advertising folk or if the fact that it is not mentioned means that it was not done.

    Looking at the 2012 catalog available as a PDF, Surly makes several claims about heat treating for other parts so I'd guess the absence of a heat treating claim is at least possibly meaningful.

    PS. I am not an engineer though I occasionally like to talk like one and try to apply reason to the questions I encounter.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by bugshield View Post
    I think that goes without saying.

    The question is, Do I trust the replacement?
    I would assume the replacement will be "normal" and should be fine. You would be smart to test it out by gradually increasing the stress you put on it.

    I own a number of Surly bikes and they have all be bomber.
    Safe riding,

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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    I would assume the replacement will be "normal" and should be fine. You would be smart to test it out by gradually increasing the stress you put on it.

    I own a number of Surly bikes and they have all be bomber.
    Ha ha. Thanks. My LBS said something similar when I was debating Surly/Salsa/9:Zero:7.

    I am enjoying your blog BTW.

  31. #31
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    I'm 240lbs, using Hayes Nine Carbons with 8" rotors on my Enabler fork with no problems like this, thankfully. However, there is a moderate amount of front flex (noticed on pavement). My real issueis that the brakes howl with light to moderate pressure and cause a reasonance throughtout the front end. More annoying than anything, and I'd like to find a solution.
    Wowsa...

    Side note to trailmaker: My Enabler fork did the exact same thing when I switched from BB7 to SLX...Howling and resonance with moderate pressure. Close inspection showed the mounting bosses were a tiny bit skewed--brake wouldn't 'square up' with the rotor, so pads were contacting at an angle. I dressed the bosses on the fork with a file until they appeared visually parallel with the rotor, just a few strokes really. Reattached adapter and now howl is gone. In retrospect the bb7's were unusually noisy as well. Willing to bet that's what's up with yours...

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by montana_ben View Post
    Wowsa...

    Side note to trailmaker: My Enabler fork did the exact same thing when I switched from BB7 to SLX...Howling and resonance with moderate pressure. Close inspection showed the mounting bosses were a tiny bit skewed--brake wouldn't 'square up' with the rotor, so pads were contacting at an angle. I dressed the bosses on the fork with a file until they appeared visually parallel with the rotor, just a few strokes really. Reattached adapter and now howl is gone. In retrospect the bb7's were unusually noisy as well. Willing to bet that's what's up with yours...
    is it possible a brake post face tool would cure this?? say from a LBS?

  33. #33
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    is it possible a brake post face tool would cure this?? say from a LBS?
    Definitely--I guess I should have said, your i.s. mount tab needs to be faced, take it to your LBS. Just lazy and grabbed a file... Correct tool: Park Tool Co. » ParkTool Blog » Disc Brake Mount Facing (IS type) with DT-1

    Sorry to wander off-thread, bent fork is much more exciting.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by montana_ben View Post
    Definitely--I guess I should have said, your i.s. mount tab needs to be faced, take it to your LBS. Just lazy and grabbed a file... Correct tool: Park Tool Co. » ParkTool Blog » Disc Brake Mount Facing (IS type) with DT-1

    Sorry to wander off-thread, bent fork is much more exciting.
    we on the same page so no worries and yes 'bent fork' deserves attention.

  35. #35
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    PSA; don't do "stoppies" on rigid disc brake forks...

    Quote Originally Posted by bugshield View Post
    Very interesting. Thank you for posting.

    Having Googled a bit for things like "surly" and "heat treated fork" it is not immediately clear to me that Surly claims this or any fork is heat treated. Most of the results reference the chainstays of the 1x1. I wonder if the heat treating angle has only been dropped by the advertising folk or if the fact that it is not mentioned means that it was not done.

    Looking at the 2012 catalog available as a PDF, Surly makes several claims about heat treating for other parts so I'd guess the absence of a heat treating claim is at least possibly meaningful.

    PS. I am not an engineer though I occasionally like to talk like one and try to apply reason to the questions I encounter.
    I'm not a mechanical engineer either but I've rubbed elbows with many over the years(before retirement I was involved with the fabrication of all sorts of metal thingys requiring an engineering stamp)---I'm a sucker for eloquent engineering and study it as a hobby.

    So I did some quick calculations on the Pugsly fork and my results are a little scary---if my assumptions are correct you'd expect the fork to fail under hard braking. (ASS_U_ME; makes an "ass" out of "you" and "me"!)

    I won't go too far into the detail of my assumptions other than to say I used 25 mm diameter 1.0 mm wall 4130 normalized tube at the failure point. Plus the rider is a sack of bricks weighing 230 lbs. Plus instant brake application = failure every time. (215 lbs for the rider plus 15 lbs for some of the bike's mass)

    That the rider is a blob of protoplasm and that brakes don't grab instantly is why folks can get away with "stoppies" and such. Rim brakes are much easier on the fork; it appears to me that with disc brakes at the instant of brake application nearly all the stress goes through the left fork blade.

    Maybe all this will draw out a "real" engineer (lurking???); it'd be great to see a FEA done on a disc brake fork leg.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post
    I'm not a mechanical engineer either but I've rubbed elbows with many over the years(before retirement I was involved with the fabrication of all sorts of metal thingys requiring an engineering stamp)---I'm a sucker for eloquent engineering and study it as a hobby.

    So I did some quick calculations on the Pugsly fork and my results are a little scary---if my assumptions are correct you'd expect the fork to fail under hard braking. (ASS_U_ME; makes an "ass" out of "you" and "me"!)

    I won't go too far into the detail of my assumptions other than to say I used 25 mm diameter 1.0 mm wall 4130 normalized tube at the failure point. Plus the rider is a sack of bricks weighing 230 lbs. Plus instant brake application = failure every time. (215 lbs for the rider plus 15 lbs for some of the bike's mass)

    That the rider is a blob of protoplasm and that brakes don't grab instantly is why folks can get away with "stoppies" and such. Rim brakes are much easier on the fork; it appears to me that with disc brakes at the instant of brake application nearly all the stress goes through the left fork blade.

    Maybe all this will draw out a "real" engineer (lurking???); it'd be great to see a FEA done on a disc brake fork leg.
    VERY interesting!

    I was wondering along those lines. I figure the ability to load a fork would have roughly to do with: the weight of the bike/rider combination, the ability of the tire to keep traction, the ability of the rider to keep the back end down, the rotational mass of the tire/wheel, and the ability of the brakes to stop all that.

    Obviously these big Husker Dus have some awesome traction and so do these M785 brakes. I'm a big guy and know to throw my weight back on a hard stop...

    This happened on packed sand, by the way. Here is a picture of the tire track. You can see where the front tire was scrubbing for about 16" inches then broke left (right in the picture) when the left fork leg buckled. http://sheepcamp.com/~ben/pics/BentFork/IMG_0615.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post
    I won't go too far into the detail of my assumptions other than to say I used 25 mm diameter 1.0 mm wall 4130 normalized tube at the failure point. Plus the rider is a sack of bricks weighing 230 lbs. Plus instant brake application = failure every time. (215 lbs for the rider plus 15 lbs for some of the bike's mass)
    Presumably there is no such thing as instant 100% brake application. Looking at my tire tracks you can see that I was at least 16-inches into my stop before the fork buckled and a substantial part of the energy would have already been dumped in that distance.

  38. #38
    R.I.P. Pugsley.
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    I must say that the last few hours i have been looking at the fork on my Karate Monkey quite a few times.
    And i must say it looks a bit flimsy.
    I'm starting to wonder how it will hold up to my 265 pounds once it's finished....

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    I don't think heat treatment would have been the problem. Cr-Mo steel is sometimes heat treated after welding to make it less brittle, but this is only necessary with thick material, not thin bicycle tubing. It looks like those forks are just not strong enough for disk brakes. Maybe the material was mild steel instead of chrome molybdenum alloy steel.

  40. #40
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    I wouldn't spend too much time analyzing what happened to one fork. Surly forks seem to be pretty robust and you don't hear of failures like this often - in fact I've never seen anything like this with a Surly fork. So it's quite possible there was something unusual going on with this particular fork.

    A more common complaint with Surly forks are that they are too stiff and overbuilt.
    Safe riding,

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  41. #41
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    It's a defective fork plain and simple. The OP should have taken this up with Surly long before posting it here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bearbait View Post
    It's a defective fork plain and simple. The OP should have taken this up with Surly long before posting it here.
    We should be told of this type of failure. If just one person checks their fork and is saved from a faceplant it's worthwhile.

    Meanwhile pliebenberg's post above raises a few questions...
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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bearbait View Post
    It's a defective fork plain and simple. The OP should have taken this up with Surly long before posting it here.
    2nd'd!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bearbait View Post
    It's a defective fork plain and simple. The OP should have taken this up with Surly long before posting it here.
    perhaps thats already been done in some form or fashion. There's absolutely nothing wrong with bringing it here if done in a respectful way which is exactly what bugshield has done, no trash talk, no name calling just sharing an issue, a very important issue for us ALL.

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    ^^^ Yep, it was done with best intentions. He wasnt coming on with guns blazing pointing blame. Its good to share so others can inspect their forks - who's heading to the local playing fields to brake/break test their Surly forks ???

    Here's the way not to act

    Should be cut and dry warranty, it was better for you to find the weakness rather than the better half.
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    It's All Good. Fellers;

    Yes, sorry for the little thread segue back there, but I have been slightly worried that continued resonance through the fork blades might cause a failure like in the OP. My weight plus the big rotor plus the fact that I ride this thing like a regular trail bike (hard!) gives me some pause. Nothing, yet........

    If this thread causes everyone to go out and look at their fork, and now do so on a regular basis, then that is a good thing for us all. It's even good for the manufacturer.
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  47. #47
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    Good point, I guess I should have clarified that better. If there is a widespread issue I'm sure fork owners will hear about it in a more formal manner as it is obviously a serious safety concern! You're right, awareness is good... I've been riding surly forks for almost 10 years and know they design their parts well and overkill. Major ouchie with that carbon fork. wow.

  48. #48
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    Might it be possible that not having the rotors and shoes bedded in produced more friction than they otherwise would during their normal service life? I tend to agree that this particular fork was defective, but with due respect to the OP, I'd suggest that the bedding-in period may not be the best time to do stoppies.

    In any case, I hope it's not the design, because I've just installed two of these; one on my 907 and the other on my daughter's Necro. Neither of us is real hard on the equipment, but I was doing a bit of enthusiastic singletrack riding on mine yesterday.

  49. #49
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    Smartphone accelerometers

    So I spent some time the last couple of days doing (or trying to do) "stoppies" on my Pugsly and recording them on my iPhone using various "g force" apps. None of the apps I tried worked perfectly but showed that with the right software the iPhone could be a great little accelerometer/datalogger. When I did my previous calculations on the stresses the fork sees under hard braking I came up with the numbers that about the most I'd trust the Pug's fork to would be around 1/2 g deceleration; and also 1/2 g should yield a stoppie.

    The first trials yesterday were a bit of a non-event; it had rained the night before and no matter how hard I tried it the front tire (Nates F/R) would slide before the rear end lifted---both on pavement and on my gravel driveway. (I was able to easily get some stoppies on a couple of my 29ers though) As things dried out the Nate got enough grip and I was able get into the stoppie zone. Here are some of the marks left on the gravel:

    The length of the "skid" (from the partially locked front wheel) correlates well with the braking effort to get a stoppie from the 10 mph target speed I was using.

    Here's a screen grab from "CMS Lap Timer"; a $0.99 app:

    The graph shows 2 "near stoppies"; I didn't hold the entry speed steady for very long so part of the deceleration is occurring from the positive part of the curve---the -.15 g is probably at least twice that. Also the 5.9 MPH speed is from the GPS and is an average over ??? distance (this app is optimized for car racing)

    Here's using "gForce"; a free iPhone app:

    This shows 5 events; the 2.3 g is an actual stoppie but is showing the shock of the rear end slamming down---not the braking effort. The other numbers (0.4 ~ 0.8 g) are more of what I would expect but probably a bit on the high side.

    FWIW my brakes are Avid Juicy Sevens' and a 180mm rotor on the front; not a particularly powerful brake IMHO. I don't remember what the pads are but they're probably organics. The iPhone was "jury-rigged" mounted to the rear rack (why that 2.3 g slam-down reading)
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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post
    So I spent some time the last couple of days doing (or trying to do) "stoppies" on my Pugsly and recording them on my iPhone using various "g force" apps.
    VERY cool.

    I take it that your fork survived all this in style. What fork do you have?

    I wouldn't know where to start the calculations on how much load this fork got when it bounced off the second half of a double but I would guess SUBSTANTIALLY more than the one I folded. Pugsley dirt jump disaster!

  51. #51
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    Curry Squirt....

    Quote Originally Posted by bugshield View Post
    VERY cool.

    I take it that your fork survived all this in style. What fork do you have?

    I wouldn't know where to start the calculations on how much load this fork got when it bounced off the second half of a double but I would guess SUBSTANTIALLY more than the one I folded. Pugsley dirt jump disaster!
    ...best color name ever! I'm mentioning this because that's the color of the year of my bike/fork; built up from separate NOS eBay purchases so I'm not sure of the exact vintage but I'm guessing the pair is 3~4 years old. It's the stock offset 135 mm Pugs fork with the canti bosses but no bottle mounts.

    I also can get my hands on a Pugs Necro that I built up for my son; that frame came new from an online dealer but the fork was from eBay (also NOS 135 mm offset but the newer non-canti model) . Both frames are large (20") sizes.

    I very seldom (until just recently) do stoppies on my Pugs although I've never had any qualms about doing this; Surly's stuff always seems "hell-bent for leather" stout. On the other hand, my son is often doing stoppies on his and that's the main reason your fork failure has me so interested in this topic. I'm a little under 200# soaking wet but my son is 250# plus---he scares me sometimes with his escapdes. (BTW his bike has BB7's)

    The column strength of the fork blades should be adequate (again; I can only assume what the wall thickness is) for most riding; I suspect the wheels might taco before the fork buckles (more damned assumptions) ---but it's the reactive torque from the brake that gives me reason for concern. Puts a bending moment into the small end of an end-loaded column that's way over my head to analyze. That why I'm hoping that "real" engineer will surface!
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  52. #52
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    The Jugsley

    I never did like the flexing of the stock Pugsley fork. Problem solved with a Jones Truss fork.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Anyone ever bent a Pugsley fork?-ditch-witch.jpg  


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    Hi bugshield,

    Surly here. Wow, that is a nasty bend. We hope you managed to roll out ok. We are sorry you had this experience with one of our products.

    Please work with your LBS to get the fork sent in as soon as possible. It will be covered under warranty. We really need to check it out and see what is going on here. This obviously shouldn't happen, and we will be investigating immediately once we get the fork back.

    If anyone else has any problems with any Surly product, ever, please feel free to contact us directly or work with your local bicycle shop. Just send an email to derby(at)surlybikes.com. We value your feedback, and you. Thanks, Surly

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by snackeyp View Post
    Hi bugshield,

    Surly here. Wow, that is a nasty bend. We hope you managed to roll out ok. We are sorry you had this experience with one of our products.

    Please work with your LBS to get the fork sent in as soon as possible. It will be covered under warranty. We really need to check it out and see what is going on here. This obviously shouldn't happen, and we will be investigating immediately once we get the fork back.

    If anyone else has any problems with any Surly product, ever, please feel free to contact us directly or work with your local bicycle shop. Just send an email to derby(at)surlybikes.com. We value your feedback, and you. Thanks, Surly

    This is such a refreshing attitude compared with other companies that give so many problems over warranty claims!
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    It's good to know about this stuff. And I applaud everybody for their civil manners!

    I've got an enabler fork on the way and I will definitely be putting it through some "testing" prior to my first trip to the trail.

    A friend that owns a local shop bent his Karate Monkey fork in much the same way as the OP. I think he just called it a wash and ordered a replacement.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by snackeyp View Post
    Hi bugshield,

    Surly here. Wow, that is a nasty bend. We hope you managed to roll out ok. We are sorry you had this experience with one of our products.

    Please work with your LBS to get the fork sent in as soon as possible. It will be covered under warranty. We really need to check it out and see what is going on here. This obviously shouldn't happen, and we will be investigating immediately once we get the fork back.

    If anyone else has any problems with any Surly product, ever, please feel free to contact us directly or work with your local bicycle shop. Just send an email to derby(at)surlybikes.com. We value your feedback, and you. Thanks, Surly
    Thanks for checking in. The process is already rolling with my LBS but no real news yet. Please PM me if you want to get more info to associate this case with that one.

  57. #57
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    Hi I'm new to the forums.I'm a machinist and pro gunsmith and know allot about metallurgy and heat treatment. After a part is hardened it is tempered or drawn to soften it to the necessary hardness to meet spec's and remove brittleness.After welding or hydro-forming the parts are often stress relieved to prevent cracking or twisting & warpage while this is a heat treatment is dose nothing to harden the material it may in fact remove unwanted hardness.A part can be tested with a triangle file if the teeth of the file skip off the surface it has been hardened.The dropouts may be hard and the forks unhardened.I hope your problem is fixed soon.

  58. #58
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    I doubt the fork blades and dropouts are heat treated. Bicycle chromoly tubing is designed to be welded with no post-weld treatment required.

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    I tried to order a 100mm fork from both Treefort and Fatbikes.com for a generator hub Pugsley I'm thinking of building up; both sites had showed them in stock when I ordered. Treefort said the fork has been discontinued and they have no more stock, and Fat bikes said it's been recalled and Surly is working on a new one. I emailed them back to see if there were more details, but haven't heard anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bugshield View Post
    I think that goes without saying.

    The question is, Do I trust the replacement?
    I would totally trust Surly. They are a reputable company that are known for making very reliable bikes. Have you contacted them?

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by pastorgarret View Post
    I would totally trust Surly...Have you contacted them?
    it's in the thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by snackeyp View Post
    Hi bugshield,

    Surly here. Wow, that is a nasty bend. We hope you managed to roll out ok. We are sorry you had this experience with one of our products....Thanks, Surly

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by pastorgarret View Post
    I would totally trust Surly... Have you contacted them?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by post #3
    My LBS is working on that for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Surly
    Please work with your LBS...

  63. #63
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    Yeeha! I got my parts yesterday and built the bike up again today! My wife got to take her first ride this afternoon and LOVES it!

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    Awesome news! Glad they took care of you.

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    Soo, the Pugsley fork has been recalled? What's going on here?

    I ride a 2011 Snowblind Pugsley with the stock fork. I still have all of my teeth, and would like to keep it that way.

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    The fork in question is the NEW 100MM Pugsley fork (with three Anything Cage braze-ons up each leg of the fork and no cantilever brake bosses).

    Talk to your Surly dealer if you have one.
    Last edited by bugshield; 12-11-2012 at 06:26 AM. Reason: Formatting

  67. #67
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    It truly reminds me of all the broken Boxxer forks in the past.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlimouze View Post
    I tried to order a 100mm fork from both Treefort and Fatbikes.com for a generator hub Pugsley I'm thinking of building up; both sites had showed them in stock when I ordered. Treefort said the fork has been discontinued and they have no more stock, and Fat bikes said it's been recalled and Surly is working on a new one. I emailed them back to see if there were more details, but haven't heard anything.
    A couple days ago I called Surly up and spoke to one of the crew about the 100mm Pugs fork. Discontinued; no further information available. I would really love to get hold of something that could accommodate an Endomorph if needed yet allow me to run a 100mm dyno hub up front.

    Searching for a closeout Pugsley fork led me down a rabbit hole which ended at Vicious Cycles. Does anyone have experience with their Snow fork? Looks like I may end up going that route if all else fails.

  69. #69
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    BlackSheep makes a righteous Ti unicrown fork and their Steel version is pretty darn alright too...I own both and run Schmidts on both.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnalogKid View Post
    A couple days ago I called Surly up and spoke to one of the crew about the 100mm Pugs fork. Discontinued; no further information available. I would really love to get hold of something that could accommodate an Endomorph if needed yet allow me to run a 100mm dyno hub up front.

    Searching for a closeout Pugsley fork led me down a rabbit hole which ended at Vicious Cycles. Does anyone have experience with their Snow fork? Looks like I may end up going that route if all else fails.
    The End:

    I was advised by my LBS to stop posting about this but I know some things that others may like to know and don't appreciate gag orders.

    It's pretty discomforting to me that I haven't seen an official recall announcement from Surly on the New 100mm Pugsley fork but I've been told by a couple dealers that it was recalled and would be reproduced (when I was hunting for an old 100mm Pug fork). Time may be your ally. Otherwise, the old 100mm Pugsley fork might be an option if you can find one.

    Surly moved me to a 135mm replacement fork but it had other problems; The brake mount was way out of plane and could not be used without modifying the crap out of an adapter. Sorry I didn't say so earlier, I thought it would be a good time cool off and reflect on all this for a while.

    I finally bought a Carver O'Beast fork and that was the end of fork problems for me.

    To Surly's credit, the recall started before they even had my fork back. I assume my pictures prompted further testing and the results of those tests caused the recall and that they did not recall a bunch of forks based solely on my pictures. I think my case, at this point, got caught in a massive backwash of forks and fell through the cracks.

    To Surly's discredit; It seemed to take forever to get a replacement, a shipping deadline was missed, a shipment was sent incomplete, the replacement had QC problems, only Surly dealers have been advised of the recall, and it was implied if not stated outright that I should keep this quiet (Oops).

    There you have it; the rest of the story.
    Last edited by bugshield; 02-01-2013 at 09:58 AM. Reason: One of my statements was about a message that was implied and not a quote.

  71. #71
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    Odd story, especially the STFU part of it...
    If it actually has been recalled, I hope Surly will make a statement ... Surly?
    I'm just building up a new wheel for the 100mm pugsley fork I bought new not so long ago... am I risking my pristine smile by riding one?

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    I'm really interested in hearing more about this too. I was planning on building up a Front Dynamo hub-d Pugsley. What's up Surly?

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusza View Post
    Odd story, especially the STFU part of it...
    If it actually has been recalled, I hope Surly will make a statement ... Surly?
    I'm just building up a new wheel for the 100mm pugsley fork I bought new not so long ago... am I risking my pristine smile by riding one?
    Might want to check with Surly before building up the new wheel to be sure.
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  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    Might want to check with Surly before building up the new wheel to be sure.
    Surly have been somehow sloppy with responding to my previous email - two weeks no reply - so I'm not holding my breath.
    But I contacted the UK distributor and they haven't heard about any recall.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusza View Post
    Odd story, especially the STFU part of it...
    I should try to be more accurate. That's my interpretation not a quote.

    I was advised by my LBS on several occasions that I should not be posting about this on MTBR, manufacturers really don't like that, etc. They were polite about it but I got the message loud and clear.

  76. #76
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    That's cool bugshield. I'm not making any assumptions nor bashing anyone/-thing, it's best to wait for what the pros say anyway.
    I'll stick around until then.

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    I just e-mailed Vicious and Black Sheep with a sales query...can they duplicate the Pugs 100mm fork, with its attendant rack and fender mounts?

    I'll go with whomever answers my questions/returns my e-mail at this point.

    There has GOT to be a market for such a contraption.

  78. #78
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    Surly's silence...

    Quote Originally Posted by bugshield View Post
    The End:

    I was advised by my LBS to stop posting about this but I know some things that others may like to know and don't appreciate gag orders.

    It's pretty discomforting to me that I haven't seen an official recall announcement from Surly on the New 100mm Pugsley fork but I've been told by a couple dealers that it was recalled and would be reproduced (when I was hunting for an old 100mm Pug fork). Time may be your ally. Otherwise, the old 100mm Pugsley fork might be an option if you can find one.

    Surly moved me to a 135mm replacement fork but it had other problems; The brake mount was way out of plane and could not be used without modifying the crap out of an adapter. Sorry I didn't say so earlier, I thought it would be a good time cool off and reflect on all this for a while.

    I finally bought a Carver O'Beast fork and that was the end of fork problems for me.

    To Surly's credit, the recall started before they even had my fork back. I assume my pictures prompted further testing and the results of those tests caused the recall and that they did not recall a bunch of forks based solely on my pictures. I think my case, at this point, got caught in a massive backwash of forks and fell through the cracks.

    To Surly's discredit; It seemed to take forever to get a replacement, a shipping deadline was missed, a shipment was sent incomplete, the replacement had QC problems, only Surly dealers have been advised of the recall, and it was implied if not stated outright that I should keep this quiet (Oops).

    There you have it; the rest of the story.
    ...speaks volumes. Between this fork and the cracks on certain Pugsly frames they have their hands full. They're probably trying to handle these issues internally before the CPSC steps in. IMHO the frame is more of a cosmetic flaw while the fork could be a real liability. It was interesting that Surly was lurking here and made one post before the silence set in. Orders from on high??? (QBP?) Or is it that they really don't know as of yet what the problems are? Full disclosure is always good... (don't wait until you need to come clean on Oprah!!!)

    I'd love to get my hands on a couple of those cracked frames for cheap (out of warranty)

    The Pugs is a great bike!
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  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post
    The Pugs is a great bike!
    Amen.

    On a positive note, Nick from gypsybytrade does seem to be running the new 100 mm fork with braze-ons without any issues. He's certainly put some miles on it.

    Let's not spread rumors and give love a chance...

  80. #80
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    Yeah, and having completely forgotten about this thread, I raced Triple D on one of these forks a couple of weeks ago. Held up fine. My body, on the other hand...

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/mababo/8404466832/" title="After by Uncle Bicycle, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8376/8404466832_2ecc6fae9e.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="After"></a>

  81. #81
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    Fing surly.. They never replied to one of my emails regarding a new sulry bike i got... Granted, it was not nearly as severe an issue as the cracks and bends being discussed here..

    Everyone says good things abt surly, but i've only experienced the opposite... Shady... Next bike will not be a surly

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by boogman View Post
    Fing surly.. They never replied to one of my emails regarding a new sulry bike i got... Granted, it was not nearly as severe an issue as the cracks and bends being discussed here..

    Everyone says good things abt surly, but i've only experienced the opposite... Shady... Next bike will not be a surly
    Maybe they are getting strict about their customer service policy!

    Blog | Surly Bikes

    Sorry to hear about your troubles...
    Safe riding,

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  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    Maybe they are getting strict about their customer service policy!

    Blog | Surly Bikes

    Sorry to hear about your troubles...
    lol they are taking a leap of faith amassing this marketing campaign on their namesake.

    yo vik, your blog was one of the reasons I got into a surly.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by boogman View Post
    lol they are taking a leap of faith amassing this marketing campaign on their namesake.

    yo vik, your blog was one of the reasons I got into a surly.
    I've got 4 Surly bikes in my garage and I'll likely buy more down the road. In some categories they are the only show in town.

    So far my Surly bikes have treated me well and my customer service interactions with them have been good. Although their customer service seems to work best through a dealer.

    If we were chatting about bikes over beers I'd still recommend them to to someone who wanted say a Big Dummy or Pugsley.

    That doesn't mean I'm not sympathetic to other folks that aren't getting issues sorted or that they don't screw $hit up sometimes. Even companies that are on the whole pretty good mess up.

    I nearly lost my marbles dealing with another company recently getting some customer service for a MTB. A company known for killer customer service. Unfortunately I was the 1-3% of their customers that fell through the cracks - again & again & again! So I can appreciate that it's really hard to have a wide perspective on an issue when you feel screwed over about a particular thing.

    Now that I have calmed down I'd be willing to buy from the company in question again.

    All that to say I feel for you and I hope you get it sorted out...
    Safe riding,

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  85. #85
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    Case solved...
    Safety Recall

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusza View Post
    Case solved...
    Safety Recall
    Glad to see Surly doing the right thing. More info here.

    Quote Originally Posted by http://surlybikes.com/pages/surly_bikes_recalls_bicycle_forks_due_to_fall_haza rd
    Incidents/Injuries: Surly Bikes has received one report of a fork bending above the disc brake mount. No injuries have been reported.
    Interesting that I seem to be the only person who has bent one of these forks...

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    i have a bent one as well.. only i was going into a corner and the damn thing folded on me.. i have a pugsley and a neck romancer... i was on the standard pugs when it happened.. my gf was on the neck romancer.. my pugs has the red offset fork.. neck romancer has the moonlander.. that will be getting checked asap to make sure it is.. so now we know of two for sure.. only i did suffer a few minor injures.. some pretty big bruises on my upper leg and nice one on my shin.. first i thought i might have busted my leg. dont know what part of the bike i hit with it.. but its a deep ass bruise.. and bounced my head off the dirt.. thankfully i was wearing a helmet... so other than a few small scrapes and cuts, and a few gnarly bruises and a sore neck i made out ok.. coulda been worse i guess.. wrote the company and email.. shouldnt have quality control problems on a bike that costs what it does... brake was rubbing really bad.. wasnt rideable.. we were 10 miles from civilization deep in the woods.. so me and a buddy of mine popped the front wheel off.. and had to actually put our weight on it to bend it back so it would be rideable to some degree.. kinda a bummer on a $1800.00 bike that really doesnt have much special stuff on it other than fat tires.. i was looking at getting a surly karate monkey.. cause i was in love with my surly's until now... wanted to go with their 29er single speed cause of all the things you can do with them.. but might have to go another route now.. they brag about their parts being made in taiwan because of the quality taiwan produces.. hmm.. somebody over their seemed to miss the mark.. i talked to a guy at surly the other day and supposedly the company that builds their forks used the wrong thickness of tubing on that day.. how the hell does somebody just in one day change the diameter of tubing on about 975 forks...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Farmer View Post
    i talked to a guy at surly the other day and supposedly the company that builds their forks used the wrong thickness of tubing on that day.. how the hell does somebody just in one day change the diameter of tubing on about 975 forks...
    I weighed my uncut fork at 1150 grams and expected it to weigh 1168. I would think that thicker tubing would be a difference of more than 18 grams but what do I know?

    Got a picture of the bent fork?

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    I do have some pictures but doesnt look as severe as yours.. it wasnt anyways.. but now its not because I had to bend it back ad much as I could to ride it out of the woods.. I dont wanna post pictures yet.. I dont think surly sucks by any means and dont want anyone to think that.. just frustrating that it happened.. I know stuff happebs and sometimes stuff just gets missed or whatever.. were all human.. but definently need to get word out to the people with the bad forks so nobody gets hurt in a bad way.. can u post a pic of the fork u went to?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Farmer View Post
    ...can u post a pic of the fork u went to?
    How about a link?

    The Carver fork is very light. The other alternative I looked at was a lefty.

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    Talked to matt moore at quality bike products today.. he assured me the new forks were good to go.. they recognized whatever the issue was and it was corrected.. I feel confident after talking with him that all of us fat bikers surly and salsa riders are good to go.. I mentioned maybe putting the word out on some forums and what not just so those bikers that maybe dont go to their dealers for every repair can hear about the fork recall.. I still love my bike.. was frustrated at first bit they were on the ball and contacted me asap.. I didnt wanna ride either of my fatbikes until I had a better understanding of the situation.. I feel confident my new fork will handle just about anything I throw at it! He told me they did the new testing and they passed! Thanks surly and riders get your forks checked out.. and hopefully I see you all out on the trail!! Ride on!

  92. #92
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    Just so any Pugs fork recall folks don't feel like they are the only ones feeling the pain:

    Safety Recall: Salsa Vaya & La Cruz Bicycle Forks | Salsa Cycles
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

  93. #93
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    my LBS claims that my bike wasn't one affected by the recall, yet I noticed today that the powdercoat is cracked above the disc mounts. Anyone have any advice?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantic View Post
    my LBS claims that my bike wasn't one affected by the recall, yet I noticed today that the powdercoat is cracked above the disc mounts. Anyone have any advice?
    Contact Surly. You could have a fork that needs to be replaced and one that is not part of the recall. I wouldn't take any chances with my front wheel/fork - the consequences of a failure are too gnarly.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantic View Post
    my LBS claims that my bike wasn't one affected by the recall, yet I noticed today that the powdercoat is cracked above the disc mounts. Anyone have any advice?
    What bike is it? Year, fork?

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    Quote Originally Posted by firedfromthecircus View Post
    What bike is it? Year, fork?
    yellow, 22" standard pugsley, purchased January.

  97. #97
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    Took it into Bicycle Revolutions, my trusted Surly Dealer in Philly. One of the mechs looked at the cracked powder coat on the front of the fork above the disc mount and thought that it did look like a valid warranty item. I'm bringing it back in on thursday for the shop owner to take a look at and begin the warranty process. I'm not looking forward to having the bike out of commission for a week or more and a little disappointed that the replacement fork won't match, but that's the way of it, I guess.

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    So its only the offset forks that had a problem right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Desert Walker View Post
    So its only the offset forks that had a problem right?
    Go check the OP on page 1; his was a 100mm fork; not the 135mm offset.

    You need to check the date stamped on the steer tube.

    Check the Surly site for recall specifics.
    Content here does not officially represent the CA DPR.

    Windows 10, destroying humanity one upgrade at a time.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post
    Go check the OP on page 1; his was a 100mm fork; not the 135mm offset.

    You need to check the date stamped on the steer tube.

    Check the Surly site for recall specifics.
    +1

    A question for those of you who got replacement 100mm forks: did your forks come with anythingcage mounts on the legs? Mine doesn't have those anymore (I hope cable ties and duct tape will stick ), also it seems beefier - suddenly fitting an inflated tyre into the fork became a great hassle. Maybe it's just Knard vs Larry casing..?
    Anyways, for such a big recall Surly were quite fast with suppling replacement forks (two in my case) which is cool.

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