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  1. #1
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    All mountain fat bike??

    Okay so this may sound like a oxy moron but I got my first fat bike recently like this past week

    I've put about 75 miles on it so far and I'm almost upset at how much I'm loving this thing. The grip when climbing over snow covered rocks and roots just blows my mind. My question is does any body make a fatty in all mountain trim. Meaning slacked out around 67.5-68 head angle. My other rides are a 2016 expert fsr stumpy and a chromag rootdown. I love the geo of the rootdown and of my stumpy. Would love this Geo for a year round fatty. I know chromag makes one the nice dreams. Does any body else?? I'm a big fan of chromag but didn't go with theirs since i didn't know if k would even like this kind of bike. Looking slack 67.5-68 head angle short stays and still fit up to a 4.6 tire. With a 120 bluto. Thanks


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  2. #2
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    The RM BLizzard is 67.5 with the 120 Bluto: A hell of a fat!

  3. #3
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    Foes Mutz has a 67 degree head angle, and 5.5 inches rear travel.
    I'm going to be getting one next month. It will be replacing my Ibis Mojo HD.
    Can't hardly wait.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by boardguru View Post
    Foes Mutz has a 67 degree head angle, and 5.5 inches rear travel.
    I'm going to be getting one next month. It will be replacing my Ibis Mojo HD.
    Can't hardly wait.
    Now that sounds interesting


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  5. #5
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    Mutz

  6. #6
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    I put a - 1 degree angleset in my mutz. I absolutely love it. I've been doing 60+ miles a week on it for the last several weeks while my brand new Nomad sits unused. Lol

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  7. #7
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    Matter Benefat might fit the requirements: Benefat ? Matter Cycles

  8. #8
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    Myst Full Fat..

    It doesn't matter what I ride as long as I ride it Rubber Side Down●~●.

  9. #9
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    Chromag made a limited run of fat bike frames called the "Nice Dreams". Maybe get in touch with your local Chromag dealer. I understand the geometry is very similar to their other bikes, just wider.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by rollertoaster View Post
    I put a - 1 degree angleset in my mutz. I absolutely love it. I've been doing 60+ miles a week on it for the last several weeks while my brand new Nomad sits unused. Lol

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    That's insaine to me. I've been riding my fatbike since November, salivating to get back on my nomad. I've been pondering driving 8 hours south to ride it.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by SRALPH View Post
    Chromag made a limited run of fat bike frames called the "Nice Dreams". Maybe get in touch with your local Chromag dealer. I understand the geometry is very similar to their other bikes, just wider.
    I really like the chromag. My rootdown is a rowdy ass hard tail if their fatty is anything like it. It would definetly fit the bill


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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockyJo1 View Post
    Holy schnikies! Look at that thing!

  13. #13
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    The lenz fatilac is available in a 5" or 6" version with 16.5 inch chainstays if I recall correctly.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snopro440 View Post
    The lenz fatilac is available in a 5" or 6" version with 16.5 inch chainstays if I recall correctly.
    Just googled this and couldn't find anything on it??


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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raleighguy29 View Post
    Just googled this and couldn't find anything on it??


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    You can search posts on here about the lenz. I believe there is a post from mikesee about (R)evolution or similar.

    EDIT: (R)evolution.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmooveP View Post
    Matter Benefat might fit the requirements: Benefat ? Matter Cycles
    If I had the patience to wait for a custom fat bike, this would be the one!!!

    420mm chainstays, slack headtube and steep seat tube angles... Yes!

    I recently pulled the trigger on a Farley (decent trail geo) as it was in stock but this bike may be in my future...
    Last edited by RPK3; 01-25-2016 at 11:01 AM.
    Work expands to fit the time allotted...

  17. #17
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    Its a hardtail, but my Surly Ice Cream Truck with a 120mm Bluto is pretty slack and super fun.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPK3 View Post
    If I had the patience to wait for a custom fat bike, this would be the one!!!
    x2 for sure.
    Meat Patty on a Bike

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryguy79 View Post
    Its a hardtail, but my Surly Ice Cream Truck with a 120mm Bluto is pretty slack and super fun.
    I would rather it be a hard tail for this application. That benafat looks and sounds bad ass!! And way out of my price range


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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utahbikemike View Post
    That's insane to me. I've been riding my fatbike since November, salivating to get back on my nomad. I've been pondering driving 8 hours south to ride it.
    Not just insane to you. Now I'm all down for doing whatever you like and to each his own whatever floats your boat etc etc BUT...

    Stuff like this is what drives markets and it's driving the platform away from what it was originally intended. I don't care how fat a bike is, the slack angles are going to make it suck in the snow. I like my slack bike for going fast in the dirt and I like my steep fat bike for going slow in the snow. It's just so much easier to get started going uphill in deep snow with the steep angles and long wheelbase. I just can't imagine riding a slack FS fat bike with those huge gyroscopes down the mountain side with the same maneuverability, comfort, and acceleration of my FS 29er.
    The leg bone's connected to the Cash Bone!

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgw2jr View Post
    Not just insane to you. Now I'm all down for doing whatever you like and to each his own whatever floats your boat etc etc BUT...

    Stuff like this is what drives markets and it's driving the platform away from what it was originally intended. I don't care how fat a bike is, the slack angles are going to make it suck in the snow. I like my slack bike for going fast in the dirt and I like my steep fat bike for going slow in the snow. It's just so much easier to get started going uphill in deep snow with the steep angles and long wheelbase. I just can't imagine riding a slack FS fat bike with those huge gyroscopes down the mountain side with the same maneuverability, comfort, and acceleration of my FS 29er.
    I've often wondered whether a slack headtube is needed on a fatbike since they're already very stable due to the big tires.

  22. #22
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    You could pick up an On-One Fatty (or trail) frame for pretty cheap. 68 HTA 445mm CS. Slackened more with 120mm travel.

    Someone on here is using theirs for an All Mountain build, good info.
    My AM Fatty build.


    I have an On One fatty with a lefty, great bike.

  23. #23
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    My Bucksaw is 67.7* with a 100mm fork - obviously you can get it slacker with a 120mm fork. You've seen it plenty of times, and you're welcome to take it for a spin sometime.

    I didn't buy it for riding in the snow. I bought it to ride year-round. It does take some getting used to when the snow gets deeper. I will agree that you start to fight the slackness at slow speeds in deep snow, and this winter has been an absolutely terrible example. The geometry is great when you want to go fast and get rowdy, I'll agree, so it depends on what you're trying to do with this bike. If it was me, and I bought a hardtail fatty for winter riding, I'd also want it to have better snow handling.

    I know the other bikes you have, and how you ride them. Do you really plan to ride your new fatbike in the summer and ride it the same way in the same places as a third option? Or did you actually buy this to have a little more fun with the snow in wintertime?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    My Bucksaw is 67.7* with a 100mm fork - obviously you can get it slacker with a 120mm fork. You've seen it plenty of times, and you're welcome to take it for a spin sometime.

    I didn't buy it for riding in the snow. I bought it to ride year-round. It does take some getting used to when the snow gets deeper. I will agree that you start to fight the slackness at slow speeds in deep snow, and this winter has been an absolutely terrible example. The geometry is great when you want to go fast and get rowdy, I'll agree, so it depends on what you're trying to do with this bike. If it was me, and I bought a hardtail fatty for winter riding, I'd also want it to have better snow handling.

    I know the other bikes you have, and how you ride them. Do you really plan to ride your new fatbike in the summer and ride it the same way in the same places as a third option? Or did you actually buy this to have a little more fun with the snow in wintertime?
    The current one I have is for snow/muck rides out in Nebo places like that. I agree with everyone here that a slacked out fatty would suck in the snow. I've been blown away by this bikes snow performance. I was kind of thinking out loud and curios. Thinking maybe a extra bike for riding when conditions are less then favorable for standard single track then grab it and head back woods. I bought this as to not trash my new carbon stumpy in the muck.


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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmooveP View Post
    I've often wondered whether a slack headtube is needed on a fatbike since they're already very stable due to the big tires.
    After riding the fat bike, the first thing I notice when I jump on my 67 HTA Remedy is how unstable the Remedy is. Hell, the Moonlander is so stable that it stands up on its own in 3 inches of wet snow.
    The leg bone's connected to the Cash Bone!

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raleighguy29 View Post
    I agree with everyone here that a slacked out fatty would suck in the snow.
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    I guess it depends how you define "suck", how much snow, what type of terrain you're riding, and your reason for having a fatbike.

    The slackness (I'd guess its in the 66-66.5 range after reading ICT with a 100mm bluto is around 67 or a bit less), but the slackness hasn't stopped me in the snow. I have not had an opportunity to ride super deep snow, but that's also not why I bought a fatbike. I got it for year round use and winter days that are not packed enough to be fun on a regular bike. Snow in Colorado Springs just doesn't get that deep.

    I did a demo on a Moonlander before I bought my ICT, on one of my favorite rides (1500ish ft mix of singletrack and dirt road climb, mostly singletrack descent) in the snow, and loved the grip but was not a huge fan of the handling coming down. But I'm comfortable on slack trailbikes with short stems. I've ridden my ICT very similar conditions and despite a little more tendency to wander on steeper climbs, I wouldn't trade the slightly better climbing for way more fun going down.

  27. #27
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    My soon to arrive Pivot Les Fat will be a all mountain enduro style bike for me because the coldest weather we get in Auckland would be 5c so no snow. Our local trails are primarily forest with hard packed sand (winter) and looser sand (summer) rooty technical single track. Can't wait for the Pivot to arrive now and it will be my only bike. Stumpy is on the market.

  28. #28
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    My first thought would be the On-one Fatty trail.

    I've been liking the look of the Advocate Watchman and Surly Wednesday, but probably not slack enough for you.
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  29. #29
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    I feel this is just me mind you for a all around trail bike 67-68 somewhere in that range preferably 67-67.5 makes for a great all around performer. Something playful that's likes to bucked over logs and off of jumps. My rootdown and stumpy love to be ridden like this. And I had no idea the ICT head a head angle like that.


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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raleighguy29 View Post
    The current one I have is for snow/muck rides out in Nebo places like that. I agree with everyone here that a slacked out fatty would suck in the snow. I've been blown away by this bikes snow performance. I was kind of thinking out loud and curios. Thinking maybe a extra bike for riding when conditions are less then favorable for standard single track then grab it and head back woods. I bought this as to not trash my new carbon stumpy in the muck.


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    So you're thinking something in addition to all the bikes you have (including your current fatbike) for other less-than-favorable conditions?

    You may not have experienced this yet, but fat tires will pick up more mud than skinny mtb tires, so the fatbike doesn't really give you a much wider range of conditions you can ride in.

    Now, if you're just talking about the times you'd otherwise go ride at VBR, but riding a bike that gives better traction there, then I get what you're talking about.

    Keep in mind, you can only get so rowdy with a Bluto before you go beyond its capabilities. I think I got there with mine at Pisgah this year on the Black Mtn downhill. Pretty sure I lost some air through the seals on that downhill at some point. Had The Hub look it over when I got back to town, and nothing was broken. I also haven't run into that problem again.

    The fork is the biggest limitation of truly calling any fatbike (even one with the geometry you're after) a truly all-mountain bike. At this point, a modded Lefty is the best fork you can get for a fatbike, although a Boost-spaced Fox (if you're willing to accept the narrower hub spacing and tire size limitation to 4") is up there, too. The Wren fork seems to have the potential to be a great AM fork, but it doesn't sound like it's quite there yet. The Bluto is still just an XC fork, even at 120mm.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmooveP View Post
    I've often wondered whether a slack headtube is needed on a fatbike since they're already very stable due to the big tires.
    My Pugsley sent me otb more times than I care to mention. The steep HTA had a lot to do with it. My lefty equipped 9:ZERO:7 had a HTA around 68-67.5 and seldom sent me orb on descents. I never had much of an issue in the snow, either.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raleighguy29 View Post
    And I had no idea the ICT head a head angle like that.
    I think its 68 with the rigid fork and about 67 at 100mm with a Bluto. I'm guesstimating with my 120mm Bluto.

    Personally, I like it. But if I'm in the mood to ride as hard as might cause the issues Harold has experienced, I'll be on my SB66 with a Lyrik (soon to be Pike).

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantic View Post
    My Pugsley sent me otb more times than I care to mention. The steep HTA had a lot to do with it. My lefty equipped 9:ZERO:7 had a HTA around 68-67.5 and seldom sent me orb on descents. I never had much of an issue in the snow, either.
    You're a special case because of your size. I've gone OTB once in 5 years on the 2 fatbikes I've owned. (No, it's not because I'm super skilled. ) My 1st fatty was a Pugs, and my current one has almost identical geometry to the Pugs. Neither has suspension up front. Keep in mind that a suspension fork jacks the front end way up and shifts your weight back and is probably at least as big a factor as HTA in endo reduction.

  34. #34
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    I haw one AM fat its something from Germany


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    Now that's pretty damn cool!!


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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryguy79 View Post
    I guess it depends how you define "suck", how much snow, what type of terrain you're riding, and your reason for having a fatbike.

    The slackness (I'd guess its in the 66-66.5 range after reading ICT with a 100mm bluto is around 67 or a bit less), but the slackness hasn't stopped me in the snow. I have not had an opportunity to ride super deep snow, but that's also not why I bought a fatbike. I got it for year round use and winter days that are not packed enough to be fun on a regular bike. Snow in Colorado Springs just doesn't get that deep.

    I did a demo on a Moonlander before I bought my ICT, on one of my favorite rides (1500ish ft mix of singletrack and dirt road climb, mostly singletrack descent) in the snow, and loved the grip but was not a huge fan of the handling coming down. But I'm comfortable on slack trailbikes with short stems. I've ridden my ICT very similar conditions and despite a little more tendency to wander on steeper climbs, I wouldn't trade the slightly better climbing for way more fun going down.
    I'm with this guy.

  37. #37
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    Has anybody ridden the diamondback El oso de asero fat bike?

  38. #38
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    Lots of good info and points made here so far. I'm just bummed that know one makes a pike style fork for these bikes. With all these geos changing and becoming more trail oriented like most modern trail bikes in just amazed no one has stepped up and made a pike style for for these bikes. With some of these becoming shorted and slacker and more playful we need a better fork.


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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmooveP View Post
    You're a special case because of your size. I've gone OTB once in 5 years on the 2 fatbikes I've owned. (No, it's not because I'm super skilled. ) My 1st fatty was a Pugs, and my current one has almost identical geometry to the Pugs. Neither has suspension up front. Keep in mind that a suspension fork jacks the front end way up and shifts your weight back and is probably at least as big a factor as HTA in endo reduction.
    I'll add that I'm less than pleased with my Bucksaw with a 120mm lefty in the snow, I measured the HTA today at 65; but then, I didn't buy the bike for the snow. I'm keeping the 9:ZERO:7 for that and putting on bigger tires.

  40. #40
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    This is what I'm looking for in a at bike. I think that this would be a trail slaying beast.


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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raleighguy29 View Post


    This is what I'm looking for in a at bike. I think that this would be a trail slaying beast.


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    What is that? Looks nice.

    And yes, a bike like that is really fun.


  42. #42
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    All mountain fat bike??

    Quote Originally Posted by ryguy79 View Post
    What is that? Looks nice.

    And yes, a bike like that is really fun.

    That's chromags fat bike!!
    And I must that's the most bad ass looking ICT I've ever seen!! Nice ride man!

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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raleighguy29 View Post


    This is what I'm looking for in a at bike. I think that this would be a trail slaying beast.


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    The On One Fatty trail is very similar GEO to that and WAY cheaper. 67.5 HTA, 450CS, other specs on this link

    On-One Fatty Trail | On - One


  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raleighguy29 View Post
    Just googled this and couldn't find anything on it??


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    I don't think all mountain is found in a hardtail, there is a lot more to a "mountain" than buff single track.

    You want suspension, front and rear, not just to improve handling but to increase comfort for all day/multi day rides.

    And I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that slack is slack, whether it's dry, wet, or snowy, some folks like it slacker than others.

    I only have one bike, it's a full suspension Mutz, its slack, it's all mountain because it's "all I have"


    and yes Dorothy, there is an alternative to the Bluto....

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    Salted Rock Candy option

    The Salted "Rock Candy" might be an option for you?

    The thing important to me when I got my first fatbike was getting something slacker as the Specialised Fatboy felt way too odd to me. I settled on the Rocky Mountain Blizzard and it is a beautiful bike for the single trails around me. My poor 'normal' FS bike sat at home for months being neglected so I thought why not sell it on and get an FS fat bike for a bit of fun.

    It's currently running 27.5+ wheels while I get my fat rims laced up with a 177mm hub. I reckon the frame is good for a 4.2" tyre (which the expedition-type fatbikers scoff at but that's just fine for what I do with the bike).

    All mountain fat bike??-12544016_10153800934428211_1338829579_o.jpg
    All mountain fat bike??-70cc0f4f-954d-4ab7-9d79-7b9ec325f379.jpg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails All mountain fat bike??-img20160114082953-2.jpg  

    Last edited by j0hnj0hns; 01-25-2016 at 09:47 PM. Reason: Wrong pic

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    I don't think all mountain is found in a hardtail, there is a lot more to a "mountain" than buff single track.

    and yes Dorothy, there is an alternative to the Bluto....
    I ride a heck of a lot more than buff singletrack. Most of this was filmed 5 minute from my house.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euTEbXekrOY

    This one, maybe 15 minutes away. Used to live across the street from the trailhead.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKZpXySxQ8I

    Nice and buff. SRAM has done promo videos at the same trail networks.

    I've read threads on that alternative, not into being their guinea pig, but I'm glad there are people like you who are.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    I don't think all mountain is found in a hardtail, there is a lot more to a "mountain" than buff single track.

    You want suspension, front and rear, not just to improve handling but to increase comfort for all day/multi day rides.

    And I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that slack is slack, whether it's dry, wet, or snowy, some folks like it slacker than others.

    I only have one bike, it's a full suspension Mutz, its slack, it's all mountain because it's "all I have"


    and yes Dorothy, there is an alternative to the Bluto....
    Well besides the bluto or a lefty what are the other options?


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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    I don't think all mountain is found in a hardtail, there is a lot more to a "mountain" than buff single track.

    You want suspension, front and rear, not just to improve handling but to increase comfort for all day/multi day rides.

    And I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that slack is slack, whether it's dry, wet, or snowy, some folks like it slacker than others.

    I only have one bike, it's a full suspension Mutz, its slack, it's all mountain because it's "all I have"


    and yes Dorothy, there is an alternative to the Bluto....

    "All Mountain" can definitely be done on a hard tail. I took my previous 907 on the lift runs at Wyndham, during the MTB Worlds last summer, I managed to keep on the rear tires of my buddies on rental bikes for the most part, although the jump line wasn't too fun for me, but that's more of a factor of my almost being an old fart than the bike.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raleighguy29 View Post
    Well besides the bluto or a lefty what are the other options!


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    Wren, inverted, 36mm stanchions, about a pound heavier than a Bluto, it's fairly new so only a couple "retards" like myself have forked out the cash to give it a whirl.

    The Wren is far more rigid than the Bluto, think twin crown fork with a single crown, it comes in a 150mm long travel version (also 120, 100), and it has decent factory support.

    The Wren 150mm is the fork that Foes is now using on the Mutz.

    I love the defensiveness when people get challenged about riding a hardtail, it's like you called their girlfriend ugly or their dog stupid, or is it the other way around. ..

    Look, if you wanna ride hardtail, rigid, ss, while your buddies tear it up on a full squish, that's your gig, but no one in their right mind is gonna complain about having suspension and offer to swap bikes with you, it just ain't gonna happen.

    So let's keep it real, the OP asked about all mountain bikes, the "best tool, not "what will work". Hell, I could suggest a damn unicycle, anyone wanna take me on, one wheeled?

    Silly wabbit.

  51. #51
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    Well, you insinuated that hardtail riders don't venture off buff singletrack, which certainly isn't the case. If you want to "keep it real" based on the OP, he also had stated earlier "I would rather it be a hard tail for this application."

  52. #52
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    Not too mention if the price on all the FS bikes. OP mentioned Matter Benefat was out of his price range and thats about $1,800 for a frame.

    Frames=
    Bucksaw = $1,800.
    Mutz = $2,400
    Chromag = $1,600

    RM Blizzard frame + Bluto $1,400 (last year price not sure if the same this year)
    On One Fatty Trail = $411
    On One Fatty = $275
    Surly Ice Cream Truck = $800ish
    Salsa Blackborrom $850ish


    I guess question to the OP, what is your price range?

  53. #53
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    I have less into my ICT than a Mutz frame, including Bluto and dropper. I did get the ICT used, but I usually buy used bikes around a year or two old for way less than new bikes.

    That's not to say I have anything against the Mutz. I see guys ripping around here on them quite frequently and they look fun.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by blowery View Post
    Not too mention if the price on all the FS bikes. OP mentioned Matter Benefat was out of his price range and thats about $1,800 for a frame.

    Frames=
    Bucksaw = $1,800.
    Mutz = $2,400
    Chromag = $1,600

    RM Blizzard frame + Bluto $1,400 (last year price not sure if the same this year)
    On One Fatty Trail = $411
    On One Fatty = $275
    Surly Ice Cream Truck = $800ish
    Salsa Blackborrom $850ish


    I guess question to the OP, what is your price range?
    And op being me assumed that the benefat being a custom frame would cost quite a bit more that $1800. Especially when the chromag fat bike complete bike usd is about $2200. My price range. Currently I'm really not sure just yet. I just bought a carbon stumpy fsr in October then the fatty last week so it's a wait and see game right now. My main focus now is getting this info so I can check everything out as best as possible and hopefully by next fall be on one of these bikes. I've demoed a carbon bucksaw while it's a damn nice bike it just didn't de it for me. And I feel for my needs a hard tail fatty would better suit my needs. Although I would love to throw a leg over a mutz or a fatilac


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  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raleighguy29 View Post
    And op being me assumed that the benefat being a custom frame would cost quite a bit more that $1800. Especially when the chromag fat bike complete bike usd is about $2200. My price range. Currently I'm really not sure just yet. I just bought a carbon stumpy fsr in October then the fatty last week so it's a wait and see game right now. My main focus now is getting this info so I can check everything out as best as possible and hopefully by next fall be on one of these bikes. I've demoed a carbon bucksaw while it's a damn nice bike it just didn't de it for me. And I feel for my needs a hard tail fatty would better suit my needs. Although I would love to throw a leg over a mutz or a fatilac


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    That makes sense, for a non custom Benefat (stock on his site) they USED to be around $1450, not sure if thats the same as last year, where as the $1800ish was the custom frame. At that $2,200ish range you can get a pretty sweet HT setup with front suspension (bluto, lefty, Fox) I can't comment on the Wren.

    The FS Fatbikes are just too new and pricey for that range still. The Lenz looks awesome, but I'm pretty sure the price of the frame is well over the other FS offerings.

  56. #56
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    I have a ~68 degree HTA 5" travel fatbike. It's a lot of fun BUT - for "serious" fatbike riding in a lot of snow, where you're struggling to keep from dabbing/stopping/having to dig yourself out of a snowbank, the suspension has zero benefits (in fact, it hinders mounting/dismounting a bit due to the slightly higher standover required), and the slack HTA just makes the bike a bit harder to handle.

    At very low speeds, you just end up with a lot of wheel flop and it takes extra effort to keep the bike on line (and your face out of the snow).

    Now, that's not what everyone wants to do. I built the bike intending to ride it quite a lot on dry trails, and on packed snow singletrack trails that ride faster. It'll probably be great for that (we have way too much snow right now to find out, though).

    So if the goal is an all-arounder, slack/aggro is great. If you want to primarily ride snow, especially deep snow, it's at best a wash and more likely a net negative.

    -Walt

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    I don't think all mountain is found in a hardtail, there is a lot more to a "mountain" than buff single track.
    Oops - you'd better tell Canfield, and Chomag...and Transition.

    FWIW I can get it all done on a bike with a 69 degree head angle, or 67. Doesn't matter - I adapt and ride on,
    Anything steeper than 69 feels like I'm about to OTB on downhill tech but I'd adapt to 70 if I needed to, and have ridden much steeper. What starts to bother me is too slack since I'm riding flats or climbing a fair amount of time.
    69 on the Farley is working just fine for me.

    A lot (not all) of this "I want slack" business is Internet parroting.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gambit21 View Post
    Oops - you'd better tell Canfield, and Chomag...and Transition.

    FWIW I can get it all done on a bike with a 69 degree head angle, or 67. Doesn't matter - I adapt and ride on,
    Anything steeper than 69 feels like I'm about to OTB on downhill tech but I'd adapt to 70 if I needed to, and have ridden much steeper. What starts to bother me is too slack since I'm riding flats or climbing a fair amount of time.
    69 on the Farley is working just fine for me.

    A lot (not all) of this "I want slack" business is Internet parroting.
    Yea my chromag rootdown is a rowdy beast downhill!! Cane field makes some bad ass bikes as well.


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  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    I don't think all mountain is found in a hardtail, there is a lot more to a "mountain" than buff single track.
    In many cases, it's the Indian, not the Arrow......

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaBass_ View Post
    In many cases, it's the Indian, not the Arrow......
    Yep
    Forgot Kona in my list above.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaBass_ View Post
    In many cases, it's the Indian, not the Arrow......
    Let's remain PC, it's "first people"

    When I moved to the big mountains (Cascades), I came with a Honzo, it had been a great bike for Southeast trail riding, quick and agile, 120mm fork, didn't really need rear suspension.

    Then I started doing big climbs and big descents, some of them were bone rattling, so I complained to my shop guy and he said "well yeah, you don't have any rear suspension!".

    So I but the bullet and got an FS bike, which led to another FS bike, which led to the Mutz.

    Now I'm kinda hard core, I don't think anyone "needs suspension", I ride muni, and I rode SS 29er rigid for years, I even made my kids ride rigid until they could ride properly.

    But when you start talking about "all mountain" riding, any terrain and any situation, you're not talking about quiver bikes like a rigid, SS, or even hardtails. It's not about what will work, but more about what it means to ride the entire mountain.

    If it's a budget thing, then ride a hardtail, but if you have the cash, an FS bike is worth it.

    And I disagree with Walt, having an FS fatty on snow is waaay better for terrain changes, not unlike how an FS bike works on dirt and rock. Granted, suspension may not have much benefit on snow packed roads and deep pow, but then that's not really what this thread is about

    I'm not trolling the hardtails entirely on purpose, though I love the butt hurt, it makes me smile.

    I for one am totally over the snow right now, so I'm heading to Seattle to ride some dirt or mud.

  62. #62
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    I have a Mutz with the Bluto at 130mm, and Nextie carbon wheels. It has replaced all my other bikes for all riding. It does snow, trails, and downhill parks with ease. Iv'e never had a bike as fun as this one. It even climbs well with 1/10 and a Wolf Tooth rear cog. You feel like you would have to throw yourself off the bike to wreck. Mike V. at Timberline in Colorado Springs built it to my desires. The Nextie wheels are very inexpensive at under $200 each and shed .4lb off each. Making the bike more like an all mountain rig.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    I love the defensiveness when people get challenged about riding suspension, it's like you called their girlfriend ugly or their dog stupid, or is it the other way around. ..
    Figured I'd fix your quote to reply to you.

  64. #64
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    Thanks, I get so confused sometimes.

    Once I grabbed a wheel thinking it was a unicycle, but it was just a wheel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zowie View Post
    Figured I'd fix your quote to reply to you.

  65. #65
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    Yup, great bike, all you need now is a Wren for at 150mm

    Seriously, it makes the Mutz into an absolute monster and the slacked out HTA is no issue, tracking and handling remains excellent.

    My only bone to pick with the Mutz is the long chainstays. Granted, I like the way the bike handles and it doesn't lack for climbing prowess or traction, but it's not the easiest bike to manual.

    Is it considered cheating if I think about the Fattilac when I ride the Mutz, it's not like I confuse their names or anything

    Quote Originally Posted by ridmcby View Post
    I have a Mutz with the Bluto at 130mm, and Nextie carbon wheels. It has replaced all my other bikes for all riding. It does snow, trails, and downhill parks with ease. Iv'e never had a bike as fun as this one. It even climbs well with 1/10 and a Wolf Tooth rear cog. You feel like you would have to throw yourself off the bike to wreck. Mike V. at Timberline in Colorado Springs built it to my desires. The Nextie wheels are very inexpensive at under $200 each and shed .4lb off each. Making the bike more like an all mountain rig.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    If it's a budget thing, then ride a hardtail, but if you have the cash, an FS bike is worth it.
    If you like that sort of thing - creaky trail sofa. (kidding)

    I honestly would have chosen a hard tail or rigid bike regardless of my budget. I've been at this since the first suspension mountain bikes came along. (actually I had a Yamaha Moto Bike as a kid too) and I was working at the shop with the FSR came through and the first Trek pogo sticks. The more moving parts, the more creaks and sqeaks to mitigate, as well as more maintenance and down time. I've never been a fan, and I'm not someone who wants every rock and root to go away. I like feeling the trail. It's a preference thing - plus hard tails climb better - they just do. I was a relief to put the Rock Shox Mag 21 on the previously rigid Stump Jumper back in 94, and I may end up doing that to the Farley at some point. Hard tail is as far as I'll go though, regardless of budget.

    Now - if someone wanted to give my any bike of of my choice as a second ride - Mutz or Bucksaw, or better yet a Walt custom - because why not.

  67. #67
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    The Bluto is my only gripe with the bike. It has better geometry with the rear at 5" and the front 5.5". I'm holding out for a better fork to come on the market that can give me 6 inch fork. The only option at this time is the Risse dual crown. I hesitate on it, as I have heard mixed reviews. Ben, lose the weight on the rotating mass and the bike really comes alive.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridmcby View Post
    The Bluto is my only gripe with the bike. It has better geometry with the rear at 5" and the front 5.5". I'm holding out for a better fork to come on the market that can give me 6 inch fork. The only option at this time is the Risse dual crown. I hesitate on it, as I have heard mixed reviews. Ben, lose the weight on the rotating mass and the bike really comes alive.
    If you don't need >4" tires, the Fox 34 is available in 140mm travel and will fit most 4" tires (and 27.5x3.9, and 29+). Not quite 6", I know, but a great fork for relatively aggressive riding with just loads of tire clearance.

    No help if you want 4.5+" tires, though.

    -Walt

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    And I disagree with Walt, having an FS fatty on snow is waaay better for terrain changes, not unlike how an FS bike works on dirt and rock. Granted, suspension may not have much benefit on snow packed roads and deep pow, but then that's not really what this thread is about
    I think it depends on what you're doing. It sounds like this is really about riding fat tires on dry trails. For that purpose, full suspension can be great (or not) depending on the trails and the rider. I think that once you're really on a lot of travel (ie 5"+) the shortcomings of the tires for really aggro rocky stuff would be a problem. I'm pretty sure I'd shred my Hodags in a hot second if I pulled my armor out of the basement and went full on DH riding on them.

    To be totally fair, as the snow gets deeper, the trails that can be ridden get tamer and tamer. The stuff we can ride around here in winter is *the easiest* mountain biking on earth when it's dry - it's where you take beginners and kids (Round Valley). Nice trails, but not a rock or steep grade to be found anywhere. And those are *just barely* rideable when we have significant snow (180" so far this year, I think). In many cases you've got to ride up the groomed XC ski trails and then it's a struggle to *descend* the singletrack. They have essentially no features at all in the snow with the occasional exception of a rut or shoe posthole, and hence full suspension does zilch for you except make it a bit harder to get on/off when you inevitably fall over at 3mph.

    Contrast that with the early season riding I did a bunch of when we had maybe 4" of snow on top of dirt. All the normal trails I like to ride were totally doable, just way more slippery, so full suspension was a lifesaver and made the riding WAY more fun and fast.

    So for folks riding dry trails or trails with just a little frozen water on them, of course slack and FS are awesome. That sort of bike is going to kind of suck on serious snow, though, because the low speeds turn the slackness and the suspension into liabilities. And I ride one on snow regularly and curse the slackness and the suspension, so I know. If I didn't spend most of my winter outdoor time skiing, I'd certainly have a dedicated rigid bike for snow.

    -Walt

  70. #70
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    That's great there are more frame choices for that type of riding, but what about tires to go with these frames? Most fat bike tires are pretty thin. Quite a few I would not want to be screaming down a rocky hill on. Back when I started fatbiking, Endomorphs were the only production tire, but I did acquire 3.0 Gazzolodi tires and there was a major difference to be seen. Since then, some of the new lightweight tires out seem too thin to use for this application. Thoughts?

  71. #71
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    I think when I'm ready to pull the trigger on this idea I'm going to go with the chromag nice dreams. Out of all the fat bikes and their geo numbers I've looked. I think it will be the best all around performer for what I'm looking to use this bike for. Until then I'll keep using my spec fatboy for this stuff.


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  72. #72
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    An AM type hard tail fat bike is intriguing to me, but I'm not sure if I could get much use out of one. But here's my short list anyway...

    Matter Benefat
    Nicolai Argon Fat
    Chromag Nice Dreams
    And a custom from Waltworks

    The Matter Benefat looks like the most fun with its super short chainstays and slack front.

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