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  1. #1
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    465mm A/C fork on a Pugsly?

    Hey all. I've been thinking about putting a Carver fork on my Pugs. Stock A/C on the Pug fork is 447mm. Carver A/C is 465mm. Anyone done this? What is your impression regarding the geometry change? Did you like it, not like, put up with it?
    Thanks in advance.

    Edit: I kant spele two goode aftar a cuple beeers.
    Last edited by Renegade; 12-21-2012 at 06:28 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Go back to the Turner forum. And yes, longer and slacker is better. Sheesh.
    When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by cutthroat View Post
    Go back to the Turner forum. And yes, longer and slacker is better. Sheesh.
    Thanks Cutty. I knew I could depend on you.
    C'mon, welcome a neophyte

    Edit: I live in colorado. I am not riding flat trails; I am sensitive to uphill climbing performance, but I do live to ride downhill. I just don't want to make climbimg any more difficult riding a 37 pound bike uphill in snow.
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  4. #4
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    Welcome neophyte...the longer ac is a plus in my opinion. You won't notice it on climbs in the snow and the handling is just fine. Plus the Carver fork is bomb. Want one myself.
    When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells

  5. #5
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    I tried the Enabler on my Pug and didn't like it. It gives almost the same trail and flop as the O'Beast. (I have one of these forks too)

    Too sloppy IMO unless all you do is ride downhill.

    The trail and flop figures are:
    Standard Pug - 87mm trail, 27mm flop
    With Enabler - 92mm trail, 30mm flop
    WIth O'Beast - 91mm trail, 30mm flop
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    I tried the Enabler on my Pug and didn't like it. It gives almost the same trail and flop as the O'Beast. (I have one of these forks too)

    Too sloppy IMO unless all you do is ride downhill.

    The trail and flop figures are:
    Standard Pug - 87mm trail, 27mm flop
    With Enabler - 92mm trail, 30mm flop
    WIth O'Beast - 91mm trail, 30mm flop
    exactly, it takes away from any ST riding or all mtn rides if one has any aspirations of doing so.

  7. #7
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    Thank you folks. I get the idea. which is it won't work.
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  8. #8
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    Bah. Depends on what you like. If you like the steep head tube twitchyness then stick with the stock fork length. If you like a more relaxed feel, then go longer. I've become a 100 % convert to slacker front ends on the 29er and like the same feel on the fat bike, and I ride tons of ST and AM terrain. With the Enabler my current bike is about 68 degrees HTA coupled with the BFL. For long days it is very comfortable. Depends totally on what you like though, and coming from a 5 spot I would think you'd like slacker Rene.
    When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells

  9. #9
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    ^baaaaaaaah It's not twitchy just quicker to respond to rider input which is what one wants for ST, all mountain riding.

    And yes it depends on what the bike is used for along with rider preference.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    Thank you folks. I get the idea. which is it won't work.
    It's more a case of how long it works for you.

    If you're getting up the hills on your own steam, then the downhill portion of your riding is probably only 5% of your riding time. It's your choice as to which part of your ride you optimise your bike for.

    Slacker headangles have become more popular on hardtails because manufacturers are having to make provision for longer and longer forks. On most of my bikes +/- 20mm changes the head angle by 1.

    So let's assume you're the manufacturer of a 70 HA frame designed for a 450mm A/C rigid fork. There's a growing market for suspension at the front, but there's still a lot of people who want rigid.

    What would you do? Maybe sell the same frame totally unaltered but get your marketing gurus to tell the world that it now has the fashionable slacker head angle of 69 and the BB has now been raised by 10mm (lowered the BB drop) for better trail use on technical surfaces.

    And how do you do this? - by selling it with a 470mm fork with the offset adjusted to give the same trail figure, and nothing done to the frame.

    One danger of comparing suspension front ends to rigid forked is that the head angles of the suspension bikes vary considerably as the suspension works. If you have 100mm of suspension movement, then on my example frame that is 5 of head angle variation, ie your "slack" 69 head angle is oscillating between 68 and 73 (assuming 20mm sag).

    On a suspension hardtail, when your fork is compressing and expanding, it's quite possible that the sweet spot for handling is when the headangle is varying around 70 to 71, and strangely that's where rigid forked bikes are often set.
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
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  11. #11
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    this topic has been tormenting me since i got my moonlander.

  12. #12
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    I got one on my Moonlander. The only difference I noticed is the extra comfort of the carbon and the weight loss. I'm a huge fan.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    On a suspension hardtail, when your fork is compressing and expanding, it's quite possible that the sweet spot for handling is when the headangle is varying around 70 to 71, and strangely that's where rigid forked bikes are often set.
    That's a very important fact, frequently overlooked.

  14. #14
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    Suspension dynamics is weird for sure. The AC will change with terrain, but it's not entirely true that translates into a steeper HTA. The fork will compress in response to terrain, i.e. a rock, but that does not mean the HTA is steepened. The AC gets shorter because you have used up X inches of travel from the fork absorbing the impact, but properly tuned suspension will maintain the basic angles of your front end. On a properly tuned FS you can blaze over rough terrain, the suspension is working like mad, but the rider/frame feels smooth. You should not be getting a rocking horse effect if your suspension is tuned right. Brake dive is a case where the front will steepen, but you can tune most of that out.
    When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells

  15. #15
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    Thanks Cutty. I have found the right head angle for both my 5 spot and my El Guapo to be 67.5 degrees. Anything slacker and the bike becomes floppy, and wanders to much for my A.M. needs. I am not looking to change the geo of my pugsly,unless that change was favorable; I'm looking at the carver fork for the weight and performance characteristics.
    I rode with a group yesterday; one of the riders had a Ti O' beast Carver frame and Carbon Fiber fork. The bike was Uber-sexy, and obscenely light. My Pug is a pig in comparison.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by cutthroat View Post
    Suspension dynamics is weird for sure. The AC will change with terrain, but it's not entirely true that translates into a steeper HTA. The fork will compress in response to terrain, i.e. a rock, but that does not mean the HTA is steepened. The AC gets shorter because you have used up X inches of travel from the fork absorbing the impact, but properly tuned suspension will maintain the basic angles of your front end. On a properly tuned FS you can blaze over rough terrain, the suspension is working like mad, but the rider/frame feels smooth. You should not be getting a rocking horse effect if your suspension is tuned right. Brake dive is a case where the front will steepen, but you can tune most of that out.
    That's only true to a point. In step descents the weight of the rider compresses and fork and changes the HTA. And this happens preciselly when you want the slacker HTA

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by cutthroat View Post
    ...On a properly tuned FS you can blaze over rough terrain...
    I was specifically referring to a hardtail with a suspension fork.

    FS is a different ballgame because a well developed suspension will be aiming to preserve the geometry as much as possible.

    For example a bike designed for XC use like the FS Anthem 29 uses a 71 head angle, which is similar to many other XC FS 29er bikes.
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ze_Zaskar View Post
    That's only true to a point. In step descents the weight of the rider compresses and fork and changes the HTA. And this happens preciselly when you want the slacker HTA
    True. Which is precisely why I like the slacker HTA as a starting point. Right what ya like.
    When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    Thanks Cutty. I have found the right head angle for both my 5 spot and my El Guapo to be 67.5 degrees. Anything slacker and the bike becomes floppy, and wanders to much for my A.M. needs. I am not looking to change the geo of my pugsly,unless that change was favorable; I'm looking at the carver fork for the weight and performance characteristics.
    I rode with a group yesterday; one of the riders had a Ti O' beast Carver frame and Carbon Fiber fork. The bike was Uber-sexy, and obscenely light. My Pug is a pig in comparison.
    You could just try a Mukluk and get a general feel of what a slightly slacker front feels like. Or if you want to ride my Carver, which is currently about 68 degrees, get over here. We have lots of snow all of a sudden. Rode today and it was awesome. The Pug may be a pig, but those bikes have soul. The Carver fork is definitely my next upgrade.
    When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells

  20. #20
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    I ride a 468mm AC snowpack fork on a 907 (2011) frame which also is meant for 450mm AC I love the slacker feel.

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