Results 1 to 27 of 27
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    80

    Stay at 20" or go to 24"

    Hey all, since finding this sub forum, I have been reading, and reading, and reading, lol.

    When i first started reading, I wasn't thinking I needed to upgrade my son from a 20" MTB to a 24" wheel bike. But the more i read, (and after watching him ride his brothers 24" fatbike) i feel like maybe moving him up might be a good idea. What is everyone thoughts on sizing? He CAN ride a 24" wheel bike, but if I think it "looks" to big for him. is it better for him to be on a smaller bike, or have a bike that is bigger? Here is a picture of him on his brothers Cooker Charge 24" fatbike yesterday. does this look like it is too big? He has a bit of difficulty getting on it(but he can get going on his own), but once he is rolling, its fine. In an emergency, if he had to get off, he has difficulty with falling to the side.

    He has been riding bikes for 3 years, but this is the first year i want to get him out on the trails. He is showing a lot of interest, and i really want to get him the proper bike to excel on.


    I started a thread concerning upgrading his current Giant Revel jr with, stem, bar, shifter, cassette, grips, knobby tires etc. i am slowly seeing that this will cost me roughly $150-$175, and that does'nt include any brake upgrades. the giant doest have the mounts for disc brakes. I am afraid i am throwing money into a bike that is'nt worth it. My thoughts are i would get him something like a Commencal 24" HT, or an equivalent bike. Id love to stay between $400-$700. (any suggestions)

    Lastly, when riding his 20" Giant Revel, in order for him to get full leg extension, the seat is like 8" out of the seat tube. does that indicate the bike may be too small? Should i be teaching him to ride with the seat lifted like that? or should he have the seat lower and learn pedaling like that? most of the pics of the trail style kid hardatails, the seats looked kind of slammed (bmx/downhill style) The stem on the Cooker is currently 60mm, i could easily swap out a shorter one to accommodate his reach.

    I have also attached pics of him on his 20" does that look too small?

    I appreciate all the comments. i look forward to learning more!!

    Stay at 20" or go to 24"-img_8368.jpgStay at 20" or go to 24"-img_8376.jpg
    Stay at 20" or go to 24"-img_8378.jpgStay at 20" or go to 24"-img_8381.jpgStay at 20" or go to 24"-img_8377.jpg

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    158
    I dunno, the Giant looks too small and the Charge looks too big, LOL. If his arms are straight out on the fatbike, the reach is too much. Sine he is rowing, I would err on getting a 24. Good luck!

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    463
    My boys were typically on bikes either too large or too small. The time periods where they fit properly were pretty short. It's hard to get the sizing right for fast growing kids, unless you want to spend a lot for constant replacements. They were happy with their bikes either way, but neither of them were (and still are not) aggressive riders. If he's not complaining about his current bike, then I'd wait as long as possible to get him a new one. If you are just riding easy trails, then upgrades are likely not needed either. If he starts riding more aggressively and the bikes appear to be holding him back, then it's time to think about upgrading.

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation: burbskate's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    283
    That 24 may be more like a 26 since it’s a fat/plus bike. A true 24 may fit him better.

    Either way, I’d go up to the next size. I saw huge improvements in both my kids when they went up to the next size bike. My 11 and 10 year old boys are both on small 26ers. But they are both very confident riders and are tall for their age.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Trek Fuel EX 8 29er.

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    7
    Our family has been through this with two kids and we have always erred on the side of keeping the smaller bike until our young riders' feet can be planted firmly on the ground while straddling the top tube at a stop. This is so when riding technical and/or steep terrain, the rider can dab a foot easily to maintain balance and perhaps avoid a fall.

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    890
    Too big is really bad. You want to teach him skills for technical riding? To big is a huge handicap.
    Yes, bigger wheels roll better, but lacking range of motion, being unable to weight the front etc all make technical skills unachievable.

    That said, that Charge is set up with wide bars, super high, you can drop the grips on that a lot lower.

    And as people mentioned above, a 24” fat bike is bigger than a 26” wheeled bike!

    I Bett a good 24” might be just the ticket. My kids prefer plus bikes, which might mean sticking with 20” plus for a bit longer.

    My daughter just got the 24’ plus Riprock and she just fits on it at 4’5”

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    119
    Quote Originally Posted by ecooke21 View Post
    When i first started reading, I wasn't thinking I needed to upgrade my son from a 20" MTB to a 24" wheel bike.
    Ha, doesn't this happen so much on these forums? Whatever subforum I find myself reading, I end up feeling like I need more stuff!

    I notice that your kid is sitting and spinning in both of those photos. Nobody learns bike handling skills when they are sitting and spinning. Might as well go do spinning classes instead, or just do road biking. Your boy needs to stand up when he is riding. For this reason alone, the advice you'll get of hooking him up with a roadcentric/racing XC setup where he can get full "leg extension" and rides big wheels is misguided advice that is not conducive to his bike skills development.

    Unless you live in Whistler, or some other strange exception, kids belong on BMX bikes. This is where skill is learned rapidly. Going for rides with Dad on the $2k XC weight weenie build that he built with the advice of this forum doesn't help skill development. It only satisfies Dad's GAS addiction, for a fleeting moment, before Dad has refocused on the next shopping assignment. Junior, meanwhile, trails behind Dad on his $2k bike, sitting and spinning, and he still can't bunnyhop and is still scared of the trails Dad wants him to ride. Just like the middle aged roadie who sits and spins to the tune of 5k miles a year, with the Strava to prove it - yet still can't bunnyhop either. Or the elderly people soft pedaling beach cruisers, for that matter. Sitting and spinning is the LAST thing kids need to do. They need to stand up! Again - BMX.

    What that boy needs is an 18" BMX and for Dad to start taking him to the skatepark.

    Or a 20" Mini racing BMX and for Dad to take him to the BMX track.

    For the same price of that 24" weight weenie build that our forumites will have you building, you could buy both of the bikes, and 2 corresponding bikes for Dad, some safety gear, and both Dad and son will have a heluva a good time learning new skills at the skatepark and BMX track which will transfer right over to the MTB bike park trails. I guarantee this will get you a better result, for both Dad and son and that your kids skills will progress at a much faster rate.

    Once your kid gets around other kids at the skatepark and BMX track, they will be motivated more than riding with Dad ever will - because that's how kids are. Nothing motivates them more than other kids. Kids will amaze you. Pretty soon, when you take the little guy along for a MTB ride, rather than Dad having to sandbag, Dad will soon be the one struggling to keep up. Win - win!

    This is just my experience with my 10 yo daughter. I recently started taking her to the skatepark and we did our first BMX track night last week. We both love it and her skills are progressing rapidly from this; it's awesome. She is riding a 20" street trials bike (Inspired Flow) which is a great bike because it forces her to stand. She also rides a 24" fat bike (Reid Titan) similar to that Charge Cooker. When she rides the fat bike, she just sits and spins, and it's too heavy and long for her to bunny hop but she does well at the MTB park because it is very stable and she can plow over a lot of stuff. Her skill development isn't from riding the 24" bike; it's from riding the 20" bike and from riding at the skatepark. We will do our second BMX track night this coming Friday and we are both stoked about it. I'll buy her a BMX race bike as soon as she needs it. If I had to do it over again, I would have gotten her a 16" or 18" BMX when she was your son's age, like a Cult Juvenile or a Sunday Primer for the skatepark, and started taking her to the BMX track even sooner. Both of these bikes are just over $300.

    Anything that helps your kid develop bike skills is a great thing, as your child will have these skills, and continue to build upon them, for life. You are a great Dad to care so much for your kid! I hope this helps.

    Here are some photos of my daughter, Luna. Here she is about to do her first drop in into a quarter pipe at our first visit to Skatepark of Tampa. It was a big deal, scary, and she was brave and super stoked. I was super proud. Now she has her eyes set on dropping into the 5 foot halfpipe at our local skatepark.

    Stay at 20" or go to 24"-lunas-first-drop-april-2018.jpg

    Here she is at our first trip to Oldsmar BMX last week - what an awesome place. The starting gate was steep and scary, and she bailed on the first jump, creating a moment of truth. She courageously got back on and finished the lap, and her confidence got better with each lap before we got rained out. Mom and Dad were so proud. We are all excited to go again this Friday. If any of you are local, please come join us!

    Stay at 20" or go to 24"-lunas-first-bmx-day-april-2018.jpg

  8. #8
    turtles make me hot
    Reputation: NYrr496's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    9,509
    When my son outgrew his 20" bike, I built him a nice 24". It really upped his game. That fatty is really more like a 26" bike and it is big for him. If he likes riding it and he certainly will grow into it, you could put a shorter stem on it. Wouldn't be ideal, but maybe better.
    I like turtles

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    6,553
    Going by the pics, the 24" fattie is too big for him and the 20" is about to be too small
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  10. #10
    RAKC Industries
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    3,133
    Quote Originally Posted by NYrr496 View Post
    When my son outgrew his 20" bike, I built him a nice 24". It really upped his game. That fatty is really more like a 26" bike and it is big for him. If he likes riding it and he certainly will grow into it, you could put a shorter stem on it. Wouldn't be ideal, but maybe better.
    This, if he likes the fat bike go shorter stem. Fat bikes are really heavy for smaller kids.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    Life on a bike doesn't begin till the sun goes down.


  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    80
    Thank you all who offered up your advice and encouragement. I ended up buying him a used Scott Voltage 24" for $110. It has an upgraded drivetrain, and disc brakes. i am going to pick it up tomorrow. Hopefully fits him good! ill update this thread once he gets it and rides it!!

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    80
    Thank you for your lengthy reply. I will take this into serious consideration. I loved BMX when i was a boy, Im sure my kids will to!

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    7
    Nice job. Looking forward to your follow-up.

  14. #14
    Friendly Neighborhood MTBer
    Reputation: kabayan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    217
    Quote Originally Posted by ecooke21 View Post
    Thank you all who offered up your advice and encouragement. I ended up buying him a used Scott Voltage 24" for $110. It has an upgraded drivetrain, and disc brakes. i am going to pick it up tomorrow. Hopefully fits him good! ill update this thread once he gets it and rides it!!
    That is a great find! Scott are great kids bikes for the $. They were one of the "It" bikes on this forum back when the only boutique brand was Lil Shredder. Nowadays they have a lot more choices from Trailcraft and Spawn and Commencal and Orbea etc etc. My kids have enjoyed their Scott Voltage 20 and a Scott Scale 24 bikes.
    Happy trails!
    If you can't play, display.

  15. #15
    turtles make me hot
    Reputation: NYrr496's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    9,509
    Quote Originally Posted by kabayan View Post
    That is a great find! Scott are great kids bikes for the $. They were one of the "It" bikes on this forum back when the only boutique brand was Lil Shredder. Nowadays they have a lot more choices from Trailcraft and Spawn and Commencal and Orbea etc etc. My kids have enjoyed their Scott Voltage 20 and a Scott Scale 24 bikes.
    Happy trails!
    One of my friends just bought his grandson a 24" Scott plus bike. Thing is sick. The kid loves it.
    I like turtles

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    80
    Just picked up the Scott Voltage 25 Jr. Went on a 4 hour road trip with my buddy. He's loving it so far, even though he only road it up and down the street for a few minutes (it's raining)

    I think it fits him fine, might be a tad too large, but nothing a shorter stem can't fix. He LOVES it. All he is talking about is going to a bike park.

    A few questions, maybe someone can chime in.

    1. It is currently set up 2x6 with a freewheel. I measured the rear spacing it is roughly 5.125" (130mm) how can I tell how much I can change the cassette? I'd love a 1x10 setup for him, but don't know how that would work. Anyone know? It's got grip shifters, and we are definitely going to switch those out to trigger shifters.

    2. seeing how the large ring in the front is a 32 tooth, would it be ok to just remove the front shifter/derailleur and just leave it as is? Or do I have to swap it out for a narrow wide type front sprocket?

    3. Is it possible to make any rim tubeless? (I know rookie question) it currently has schwalbe black jack tires, with Alex Xrims 507x20 Any budget friendly upgrades? Maybe something that would allow 1x10 gearing?

    Lastly, what is a good budget/kid friendly, trigger shifter/derailleur combo?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Stay at 20" or go to 24"-img_8411.jpg  

    Stay at 20" or go to 24"-img_8405-1-.jpg  

    Stay at 20" or go to 24"-img_8409.jpg  


  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    119
    Score! Bike looks nice. You will need a narrow-wide to go to 1x to keep chain from dropping. You can hold off on adding gears until the kid bends the derailleur (won't take long) or starts running out of gears. IME the kids just leave it in the same gear most of the time.

    It does look big for him and I don't think he has much standover which can hurt their confidence. You got a great deal on the bike. I'd still consider getting a BMX. At his size, a 16" would probably be best. He will have an easier time learning how to control the bike on something smaller. You could take him to the skatepark on the 16" and have him ride the MTB when you do distance or trails.

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    158
    Quote Originally Posted by ecooke21 View Post
    Just picked up the Scott Voltage 25 Jr. Went on a 4 hour road trip with my buddy. He's loving it so far, even though he only road it up and down the street for a few minutes (it's raining)

    I think it fits him fine, might be a tad too large, but nothing a shorter stem can't fix. He LOVES it. All he is talking about is going to a bike park.

    A few questions, maybe someone can chime in.

    1. It is currently set up 2x6 with a freewheel. I measured the rear spacing it is roughly 5.125" (130mm) how can I tell how much I can change the cassette? I'd love a 1x10 setup for him, but don't know how that would work. Anyone know? It's got grip shifters, and we are definitely going to switch those out to trigger shifters.

    2. seeing how the large ring in the front is a 32 tooth, would it be ok to just remove the front shifter/derailleur and just leave it as is? Or do I have to swap it out for a narrow wide type front sprocket?

    3. Is it possible to make any rim tubeless? (I know rookie question) it currently has schwalbe black jack tires, with Alex Xrims 507x20 Any budget friendly upgrades? Maybe something that would allow 1x10 gearing?

    Lastly, what is a good budget/kid friendly, trigger shifter/derailleur combo?
    Nice bike! Glad to see him standing and pedaling on it.

    I think his bike would have 135mm rear spacing (with a 10mm axle). My son's Diamondback Splinter 24 has the same spacing and came with an 11-36T 9-speed cassette and Race Face 32T NW chain ring; I switched the cassette to a Sunrace 11-40T 10 speed cassette for additional climbing efficiency.

    I ditched the SRAM X9 shifter and GX rear mech, and put on my old Shimano Zee 10spd. shifter and Shimano SLX Shadow Plus rear derailleur (clutch mechanism is great for chain retention along with the narrow-wide chain ring). Everything shifted well, but the Race Face Chester cranks were too long (165mm), and he still had trouble with some technical climbs.

    So I decided to buy a Trailcraft 140mm crank set, and had my LBS put that in along with a 26T NW chainring. I also swapped the Sunrace cassette with my older Shimano CS-M770 11-36 and converted it to 11-42 using a Wolftooth 42T Giant Cog. I removed one spacer and 2 smaller cogs and replaced it with a 17T cog for better shifting. Wolftooth and One Up websites/Youtube vids walk you through all of that.

    He has more range and climbed the best I've ever seen him do with this combination. However, no matter what my LBS or I try, the shift from the 2nd highest gear to the 3rd highest gear is sloppy. Granny and top end shifting are fine up & down. He spends more time on the lower gearing anyway.

    Eventually we'll change out the 26T to a 28, then 30 as he gets stronger, but we'll keep the short crank arms for as long as possible to help him climb.

    As for tubeless rims, I bought a set of Spawn Cycles Brood wheels and put on a Maxxis Minion DHF 24x2.4 up front, and a Spawn Cycles Maxtion 24x2.3 in the rear. I have his stock DB wheels set up with tubes as back up; paired with a Schwalbe Big Betty 2.4 front and Rocket Ron 2.2 rear.

    Wheels, cranks, Sunrace cassette, and tires were purchased new, everything else was purchased second-hand or in some instances came off my bike when I upgraded parts.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    703
    Slow clap for midnight on that long post. I wish I had read something like that 4yrs ago. We go to a giant indoor bmx park frequently and it's unreal how much a kid can improve at a nice BMX skate park and pump track. It's like they are a whole new rider when they get back on their Mt. Bike. My 6yo loves it, it doesn't hurt that there is nice bar in it too.
    Stay at 20" or go to 24"-20180323_134506.jpg

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    80
    Thanks all for the replies! We are going out in a bit for our first ride! I will update in a bit.

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    80
    Any suggestions for a decent BMX bike to start him on? Keep in mind I'll probably have to buy two, one for his older brother as well. Thanks!

  22. #22
    turtles make me hot
    Reputation: NYrr496's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    9,509
    What size are the wheels on that Scott? If the rims on that are vee brake compatible, they probably wouldn't lend themselves too well to tubeless without a ton of tape.
    If they're 20" wheels, have a look at Velocity Cliffhangers. Excellent rims and I have set them up tubeless. Lace one to a Bike Hub Store hub and now you can put 10 or 11 speed cassettes on that bike. I have exactly that setup on a Dahon folder that I commute on and it works flawlessly.
    I like turtles

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    332
    Quote Originally Posted by svinyard View Post
    Slow clap for midnight on that long post. I wish I had read something like that 4yrs ago. We go to a giant indoor bmx park frequently and it's unreal how much a kid can improve at a nice BMX skate park and pump track. It's like they are a whole new rider when they get back on their Mt. Bike. My 6yo loves it, it doesn't hurt that there is nice bar in it too.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20180323_134506.jpg 
Views:	14 
Size:	92.9 KB 
ID:	1193898
    So jealous. We had a great one here for a couple years, but rising rents from our commercial real estate boom put it out of business last year. It really did make such a difference. We are getting a Woodward facility here next year, but it's only going to be open for non-camper day use on weekends and it won't have the same laid back vibe the old place had[/firstworldproblems]

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    6,553
    Quote Originally Posted by ecooke21 View Post
    Any suggestions for a decent BMX bike to start him on? Keep in mind I'll probably have to buy two, one for his older brother as well. Thanks!
    Haro BMX bikes are usually easy to find at an LBS and reasonably priced.
    We've got them in 16, 18 and 20" and never a single issue.

    You could probably pick up a couple of them for the same $$ as all the 'upgrades' mentioned above that are in consideration for the MTB. Be a far, far better investmen, dumping a bunch of time and money into a 20" MTB is kind of a waste IMHO.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    703
    Quote Originally Posted by ecooke21 View Post
    Any suggestions for a decent BMX bike to start him on? Keep in mind I'll probably have to buy two, one for his older brother as well. Thanks!
    There are a number of good options. The really nice stuff is about 350$. The best ones would be Cult Juvenile or Fit MisFit. Cult has MUCH better colors this year. Aside from that we got a United Recruit for 150$ off craigs, tho I had to immediately replace stripped cranks and pedals for 27$.

    WeThePeople Seed, Sunday Primer/BluePrint, Haro stuff that Slaphead said. I'm sure I'm missing some other good ones. I wouldn't go to big either. Kids can ride a 16" BMX for a long time.

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    703
    Quote Originally Posted by RMCDan View Post
    So jealous. We had a great one here for a couple years, but rising rents from our commercial real estate boom put it out of business last year. It really did make such a difference. We are getting a Woodward facility here next year, but it's only going to be open for non-camper day use on weekends and it won't have the same laid back vibe the old place had[/firstworldproblems]
    Yeah the Lumberyard is great and ultra family friendly. My wife loves go there too. My 3yr runs the green line and has no issues with the other kids. Other Dad's are around to help out too. Very cool handmade pizzas, fancy salads and locals beers in the bar (pic taken from table) that look over the park with neat art and woodwork. Very Portlandy down to the sketchy location . Park has a bunch of different lines. I think the indoor is about 80k sqft. Outdoor is big too and has a giant airbag but only open in summer. The kids that can really ride truly open your eyes as to what BMX cross-training can do for a mtb kids skill set. We live in a solid MTB town on a mountain and I'd bet the best kid rider in town doesn't hold a candle to what the BMX brats are doing skill wise. All that consistent loop riding and muscle memory development is just too good.

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    119
    Quote Originally Posted by ecooke21 View Post
    Any suggestions for a decent BMX bike to start him on? Keep in mind I'll probably have to buy two, one for his older brother as well. Thanks!
    Cult Juvenile 18" is a very nice bike, it retails at $369. It has an aluminum frame (all others are Hi-Tensile I believe), nice parts, short cranks, will need nothing. I'd get this for my daughter if she didn't already have a couple bikes. Sunday, Subrosa, We the People, Fit, all make 16" and 18" bikes for around $300, give or take. Any of these will be a really cool bike for your kid. I'd recommend go to a local bike store and have your kid ride 16" and 18" bikes and see which fits best. There is a Framed 18" I've seen for $119, but it looks a little funky with shorter bars and longer chainstays. I'd just pay more to get the Cult.

    You'll have to get a BMX too! I got a Morgan Long Fit, it was $450, and needs nothing. I love the bike; amazed at how good it is for this price and why MTB is so much more expensive. You can also look at 22", 24" BMX bikes as well. I tried all three and went with the 20" - again, smaller wheels being easier to handle. A lot of older dudes are riding the new 22" wheel size, which reminds us of how a BMX felt when we were kids.

    Make sure you get your kids knee/shin and elbow pads for the skatepark because falls and pedal strikes do happen more often. It's good for the kids - builds character!

Similar Threads

  1. IMO - stay away from "The Clymb"
    By qdawgg in forum Where are the Best Deals?
    Replies: 44
    Last Post: 03-16-2015, 06:07 PM
  2. XTR "Side-Swing" on Short-Stay Bikes?
    By GSPChilliwack in forum All Mountain
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-01-2015, 08:48 PM
  3. What fork is this? why wont it stay "up"
    By 98Mystique2 in forum Shocks and Suspension
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 07-08-2013, 05:01 AM
  4. Chain Stay Protector or No Chain Stay Protector?
    By 6guitars in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 76
    Last Post: 02-23-2013, 03:13 PM
  5. Anyone with seat stay "bushing" play? Rune only please.
    By sandersbigbike in forum Banshee Bikes
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 11-21-2011, 01:11 PM

Members who have read this thread: 64

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

mtbr.com and the ConsumerReview Network are business units of Invenda Corporation

(C) Copyright 1996-2018. All Rights Reserved.