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  1. #26
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    So in this case using 16 holes of a 24 hole hub along with a 32 hole rim and paired lacing, then every-other spoke on each side (all the leading spokes or all the trailing spokes) would exactly synch with a rim hole, and the other leading or trialing hub holes used on that flange would be offset from the rim hole used by 7.5 degrees. On a crossed spoke pattern, I think this imballance in the hub hole alignment would average out so that all of the hub holes are offset from the rim holes by 3.75 degrees and thus all the spokes on each side of the wheel would be same length. Different length spokes should only be needed for each side if the hub flanges are different diameter. The 3.75 degree offset between the hub and rim holes probably is not enough to need longer spokes, but might be safe to go +1mm over the length calculated for a 16 paired spoke wheel using 32 hole hub?

  2. #27
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    Here is my 16 Hole Paired Lacing 1X.

    Attachment 872171
    Kid specific Wheel Build for 40lb rider    NEED HELP-16-spoke-front-wheel-hannahs.jpg
    Thanks TigWorld.

    If I can do this, anyone can do this.

  3. #28
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    YES! That looks badass

  4. #29
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    Nice touch with the black/white spokes, came out great.

    I was rummaging through local bike co-op last week and they were throwing out a cheap set of 24" wheels (steel nutted hubs packed with gravel instead of ball bearings, 36 spokes). I couldn't resist rescuing the free wheelset to tinker with and picked up a set of aluminum 36 hole hubs for the re-build for $5 ea.

    Kid specific Wheel Build for 40lb rider    NEED HELP-img_5141.jpg
    I was not expecting much from this wheel but made the exciting find once I unlaced it that the rim has a low weight of 373gr for a 24mm wide x 507mm (24") MTB rim. This is around 25gr lighter than the 400gr singlewall Alex rim I last used and around 40-50 grams lighter than the other 24" rim choices on Tig's FAQ FAQLoad - Lightweight 24" rims. I have not found any other 24" MTB rim with a lower listed weight.
    This rim has a faint logo stamped in the rim that looks a bit like a stylized "HF" but I dont know who the manufacturer actually is. Finish is raw brushed aluminum, no anodizing.

    Kid specific Wheel Build for 40lb rider    NEED HELP-img_5139.jpg
    I re-laced the 36 spokes using just 12 spokes in a 1x pattern. Nice thing about a 36 to 12 spoke build is that the spokes are all evenly spaced around the rim and the rim holes used are properly oriented toward the correct hub flange. Unsupported rim span between two spokes is actually slightly less than that needed for a paired 16 spoke lacing of a 32 hole rim. I used a nice smooth 148gr aluminum shell suntour QR hub on this front wheel. The cheap wheels original spokes surprisingly were 15ga (1.8mm) so I just re-used (1/3) of them. The same-side spoke pair crossing that is visible in the pattern is actually the middle crossing of a regular 3x pattern, removing 2/3 of the spokes just eliminates the first and last of the regular 3x crosses. Each spoke crossing pair is laced with
    5 rim holes between them, 3rd middle hole is occupied by a spoke from opposite side of the wheel so there are 2 unused rim holes between each occupied rim hole. I did not interlace the 2 spokes to actually cross over each other as the crossing is so close to the hub it would create a sharp bend in the spokes. If rebuilding on same hub or simply transferring the rim and 12 spokes to another hub of same flange diameter, the original spoke length should be the same as an 3x pattern if you lace with 2 empty hub spoke holes between each crossed pair. It occurred to me however that if you are also changing the hub to a different flange diameter, you can make an adjustment to how the spokes are laced to the hub in order to "adjust" the spoke length to the hub. If you were to lace with 4 empty hub holes between each crossed spoke pair, this would be equivalent to 4x lacing and the spokes would be effectively a bit shorter so work on a slightly larger hub flange diameter hub. Alternately, if you lace with no empty holes between each crossed pair, this is equivalent to 2x lacing length so the spokes are effectively a bit longer so can be fit to a slightly smaller diameter hub flange. (You could also go to radial lacing using much shorter spokes if the hub flange is strong enough and if you are using rim not disk brakes).

    Kid specific Wheel Build for 40lb rider    NEED HELP-img_5131.jpg
    Final wheel weight (less skewer) was exactly 599gr for a total cash outlay of $5 for the co-op sourced hub. Smashed the 600gr barrier and came in 1gr lower than Tig's 24" aeroheat front build using 16 spokes and lightweight hubs! (Admittedly, more spokes (16) and a heavier rim will make a stronger wheel but I suspect that my wheel build is still overkill strong for an 8-year old).
    FAQLoad - SuperLight 79 / Velocity Aeroheat 24" front wheel
    And just 4gr more than Tig's Aeroheat + titanium spoke build;
    FAQLoad - Circus Monkey, Marwi Ti, Velocity Aeroheat 24" Front Wheel

  5. #30
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    Wow! Good to see you guys stepping it up on the wheel-building front.

    Venturewest - the white/black spokes look killer.

    GrayJay - you just can't beat a sub 600g wheel for $5. That Ti/Circus Monkey/Aeroheat wheel cost 20x that to build.

  6. #31
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    I did a bit of daydreaming, pondering just how lightweight of a 24" kids wheel it might be possible to build. Chinese carbon rim vendors are already currently producing rims for 406mm and 451mm 20" wheel sizes (BMX racing) and of course also 559mm 26" MTB clinchers. Interpolating from the weight of the available sizes, it should be entirely possible to manufacture a 300gr carbon rim in 507mm 24" MTB size, it just does not look like there is yet any available source for carbon 24" MTB rims. Taking some hope from the availability of 20" wheel size carbon rims and proliferation of Chinese rim manufacturers, it might not be too crazy to think that such a wheel might be available in the near future. Probably would be easily available in two weeks time for anyone willing to place a custom order for 1000 rims! Match the hypothetical 300gr rim with a 66gr ultra-light road hub ( UltraLight Front Road Hub - 66 grams )and 12x butted radial spokes with alloy nipples (should weigh around 60gr), it would then be possible to build a front 24" kids MTB wheel weighing 426gr around a 50% weight reduction over typical 36 spoke nutted steel hub wheel that most mid-grade kids bikes come with.

  7. #32
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    To keep this wheelbuild thread rolling along, I would refere to thread Lightest 24" Kids Mountain Bike? which brought to my attention that stans now has 24" crest tubless aluminim rims available that weights a mere 310gr, available in 24,28,32 spoke drilling.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrayJay View Post
    Attachment 860589

    Answering my own question posed above, I tried re-lacing a 36 hole, 20" wheel to 12 spoke 1x pattern. Rather than source new shorter spokes for a radial pattern, I just re-used the original spokes from the 36 spoke 3x pattern. To go from 36 to 12 spokes, you remove 2/3 of the spokes and it is also necessary to widen each of the 1x crossed pairs by moving each remaining spoke over by 2 rim holes, so there are 5 holes between each 1x pair instead of just one hole (from the other side). I also took the opportunity to upgrade from the original junky steel body nutted hub to an aluminum quick release hub with smoother bearings. Weight for the wheel went from 807gr (330gr alex singlewall rim), 36 spokes and steel hub) down to 555gr (without QR skewer), still a nice savings of nearly 200gr rotational weight once the skewer weight is added back in.
    The wider spoke crossing pairs might normally need slightly longer spokes, original spokes might be slightly too short if orginal hub were re-used but my replacement hub had a slightly larger spoke circle hole diameter (couple mm) so the re-used spokes were perfect length.

    As in Tig's wheel, the crossing location for each pair was too close to the hub flange to try interlacing the paired spokes.

    Resulting 12 spoke wheel seems plenty strong for the abuse my 60 lbd daughter will give it. Nice thing about 12 spokes on 36 holes is that the side-to-side orientation of the spokes in the rim holes is correct (unlike an unpaired 18 spoke on 36 hole wheel).
    Can you please share more detailed pictures for lacing 12>36, specially on both sides of wheel? I am trying to do the same... first 6 spokes on one side are visible and easy to follow but I am lost on the other hub side. Probably there should be 3 holes offset but I am not sure ...
    Thanks!

  9. #34
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    For another view, look clioserat the second photo in post # 29 above. This was a 24" wheel but exact same concept applies. Starting on left side, lace three outbound spokes in every 6th hub hole, then lace the three inbound spokes so that they are 3 holes away from the outboard spokes (leaving two empty hub holes between each occupied hub hole). Form three crossed spoke pairs, each with an inbound and outbound spoke and lace them to the rim such that there are 5 empty rim holes between each crossed pair of inboard/outbound spokes. The crossed pair will not actually interlace as the crossing point is too close to the hub flange, this crossing is equivalent to the second crossing of a standard 3x pattern (the first and last crossing are just missing because those spokes are gone).
    Note that the alignment of the hub holes is 10 different side-to-side, the hub spoke holes are not directly across from the holes on opposite flange. To start lacing the opposite side, find the hub hole on the right flange that is directly between two unoccupied spoke holes on the left flange. Put an inbound spoke in this right flange hole (head facing out) and lace it into the rim hole that is centered three rim holes away from the spokes on the left side. The inbound/outbound spokes and the forward/backwards angles of both sides of the wheel can either form a slightly twisted mirror image to each other or they can be identical, functionally it does not really matter but I like to shoot for mirror image where the inbound spokes for both sides (heads out) both angle in same for/aft direction instead of having two spokes from left/right side angled in same direction but with one heads in, one heads out. Once you get first spoke ofall the angle the right side established, put in the other two inboard spokes following the spacing established on left side. If your rims are drilled to angle the spoke heads left/right, these should all be occupied by spokes going to correct side.

  10. #35
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    Thanks a lot for instrucitons, it worked
    Front wheel went from 820gr -> 519 gr (without skewer). Using old Shimano XT HB-M730 hub - 139 gr.
    Rim is Jalco 20 inch (340 gr).



    I need to find hyperglide 36H hub now to continue with rear wheel. I only have 32H which is not usable for 36h rim.

  11. #36
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    Very terriffic thread!

    I'm wondering what are some good parts, particularly hub, sources?

    I'm contemplating a wheel build for my daughters 20" hotrock, and I'd probably keep it single speed. I'd rather not drop $150 or so on a hub for this application...

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garasaki View Post
    Very terriffic thread!

    I'm wondering what are some good parts, particularly hub, sources?

    I'm contemplating a wheel build for my daughters 20" hotrock, and I'd probably keep it single speed. I'd rather not drop $150 or so on a hub for this application...
    To narrow down your hub selection, measure the frames rear dropout width and determine if you are keeping existing freewheel or upgrading to cassette system. Some kids bikes are 130mm width instead of 135mm. Re-using an old freewheel hub can work fine on kids bike to add a quick release if you are re-using stock freewheel and not interested in upgrading shifting to 8/9/10 cog casette.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigWorld View Post
    I've updated my article on paired lacing with the step-by-step way I go about it. As for interlacing the spokes, it depends. Take a look down the bottom of the article and there are two example pics of interlaced and non-interlaced. I'd interlace if you can, but it probably doesn't matter unless you need the clearance. If its too hard to interlace then don't.
    This is awesome.. I'm following step by step.. however, I think it needs correcting?
    Lacing the wheel
    The only real trick is to get two vacant spoke holes either side of the valve hole (this gives you maximum space around the valve hole for tyre inflation). You do this as follows:

    hold hub so drive side is facing towards you;
    insert key spoke from outside of DS flange;
    put this spoke into the second rim hole anticlockwise from the valve hole;
    add three more spokes into the DS flange, lacing them every 8 holes from the key spoke;
    flip wheel around sou you are now looking at NDS flange;
    sight along flange and insert spoke from outside of NDS flange into closest anti-clockwise hole from the DS key spoke. This spoke will enter the rim hole that is exactly one hole anti-clockwise from the key spoke;
    repeat NDS outside spoke process for the other 3 spokes;
    flip wheel so looking at DS flange, twist hub anti-clockwise so spokes are pulled tight, insert DS spoke from inside-out into the next clockwise spoke hole from the key spoke, lace this spoke into the rim hole 12 holes clockwise from the key spoke position, repeat for 3 other spokes;
    flip wheel and lace 4 remaining leading spokes on the NDS flange in the same way.
    At least I think thats how it needs to be for my 16" 32/16 paired spoek build that I'm doing

  14. #39
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    Wow! Great thread for techno-geeks like me! Still not relevant for my kids, but might be useful in a few years.

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