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  1. #26
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    So in this case using 16 holes of a 24 hole hub along with a 32 hole rim and paired lacing, then every-other spoke on each side (all the leading spokes or all the trailing spokes) would exactly synch with a rim hole, and the other leading or trialing hub holes used on that flange would be offset from the rim hole used by 7.5 degrees. On a crossed spoke pattern, I think this imballance in the hub hole alignment would average out so that all of the hub holes are offset from the rim holes by 3.75 degrees and thus all the spokes on each side of the wheel would be same length. Different length spokes should only be needed for each side if the hub flanges are different diameter. The 3.75 degree offset between the hub and rim holes probably is not enough to need longer spokes, but might be safe to go +1mm over the length calculated for a 16 paired spoke wheel using 32 hole hub?

  2. #27
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    Here is my 16 Hole Paired Lacing 1X.

    Attachment 872171
    Kid specific Wheel Build for 40lb rider    NEED HELP-16-spoke-front-wheel-hannahs.jpg
    Thanks TigWorld.

    If I can do this, anyone can do this.

  3. #28
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    YES! That looks badass

  4. #29
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    Nice touch with the black/white spokes, came out great.

    I was rummaging through local bike co-op last week and they were throwing out a cheap set of 24" wheels (steel nutted hubs packed with gravel instead of ball bearings, 36 spokes). I couldn't resist rescuing the free wheelset to tinker with and picked up a set of aluminum 36 hole hubs for the re-build for $5 ea.

    Kid specific Wheel Build for 40lb rider    NEED HELP-img_5141.jpg
    I was not expecting much from this wheel but made the exciting find once I unlaced it that the rim has a low weight of 373gr for a 24mm wide x 507mm (24") MTB rim. This is around 25gr lighter than the 400gr singlewall Alex rim I last used and around 40-50 grams lighter than the other 24" rim choices on Tig's FAQ FAQLoad - Lightweight 24" rims. I have not found any other 24" MTB rim with a lower listed weight.
    This rim has a faint logo stamped in the rim that looks a bit like a stylized "HF" but I dont know who the manufacturer actually is. Finish is raw brushed aluminum, no anodizing.

    Kid specific Wheel Build for 40lb rider    NEED HELP-img_5139.jpg
    I re-laced the 36 spokes using just 12 spokes in a 1x pattern. Nice thing about a 36 to 12 spoke build is that the spokes are all evenly spaced around the rim and the rim holes used are properly oriented toward the correct hub flange. Unsupported rim span between two spokes is actually slightly less than that needed for a paired 16 spoke lacing of a 32 hole rim. I used a nice smooth 148gr aluminum shell suntour QR hub on this front wheel. Each same side spoke crossing pair is laced with 5 of the 36 rim holes between the spoke pair, the 3rd middle hole of these 5 is occupied by a spoke from opposite side of the wheel so there are 2 unused rim holes between each occupied rim hole. I did not interlace the 2 spokes to actually cross over each other as the crossing is so close to the hub it would create a sharp bend in the spokes. This pattern would normally require longer spokes (maybe equivalent to a 5x pattern??) but if you are rebuilding on same hub or simply transferring the rim and 12 spokes to another hub of same flange diameter, the original length (3x pattern) spokes can be re-used if you adjust for the spoke the length at the hub by lacing with only 2 empty hub spoke holes between each crossed pair (instead of 4 hub holes between each crossed pair as is normal for 3X pattern).

    Kid specific Wheel Build for 40lb rider    NEED HELP-img_5131.jpg
    Final wheel weight (less skewer) was exactly 599gr for a total cash outlay of $5 for the co-op sourced hub. Smashed the 600gr barrier and came in 1gr lower than Tig's 24" aeroheat front build using 16 spokes and lightweight hubs! (Admittedly, more spokes (16) and a heavier rim will make a stronger wheel but I suspect that my wheel build is still overkill strong for an 8-year old).
    FAQLoad - SuperLight 79 / Velocity Aeroheat 24" front wheel
    And just 4gr more than Tig's Aeroheat + titanium spoke build;
    FAQLoad - Circus Monkey, Marwi Ti, Velocity Aeroheat 24" Front Wheel
    Last edited by GrayJay; 04-20-2015 at 10:38 PM.

  5. #30
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    Wow! Good to see you guys stepping it up on the wheel-building front.

    Venturewest - the white/black spokes look killer.

    GrayJay - you just can't beat a sub 600g wheel for $5. That Ti/Circus Monkey/Aeroheat wheel cost 20x that to build.

  6. #31
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    I did a bit of daydreaming, pondering just how lightweight of a 24" kids wheel it might be possible to build. Chinese carbon rim vendors are already currently producing rims for 406mm and 451mm 20" wheel sizes (BMX racing) and of course also 559mm 26" MTB clinchers. Interpolating from the weight of the available sizes, it should be entirely possible to manufacture a 300gr carbon rim in 507mm 24" MTB size, it just does not look like there is yet any available source for carbon 24" MTB rims. Taking some hope from the availability of 20" wheel size carbon rims and proliferation of Chinese rim manufacturers, it might not be too crazy to think that such a wheel might be available in the near future. Probably would be easily available in two weeks time for anyone willing to place a custom order for 1000 rims! Match the hypothetical 300gr rim with a 66gr ultra-light road hub ( UltraLight Front Road Hub - 66 grams )and 12x butted radial spokes with alloy nipples (should weigh around 60gr), it would then be possible to build a front 24" kids MTB wheel weighing 426gr around a 50% weight reduction over typical 36 spoke nutted steel hub wheel that most mid-grade kids bikes come with.

  7. #32
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    To keep this wheelbuild thread rolling along, I would refere to thread Lightest 24" Kids Mountain Bike? which brought to my attention that stans now has 24" crest tubless aluminim rims available that weights a mere 310gr, available in 24,28,32 spoke drilling.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrayJay View Post
    Attachment 860589

    Answering my own question posed above, I tried re-lacing a 36 hole, 20" wheel to 12 spoke 1x pattern. Rather than source new shorter spokes for a radial pattern, I just re-used the original spokes from the 36 spoke 3x pattern. To go from 36 to 12 spokes, you remove 2/3 of the spokes and it is also necessary to widen each of the 1x crossed pairs by moving each remaining spoke over by 2 rim holes, so there are 5 holes between each 1x pair instead of just one hole (from the other side). I also took the opportunity to upgrade from the original junky steel body nutted hub to an aluminum quick release hub with smoother bearings. Weight for the wheel went from 807gr (330gr alex singlewall rim), 36 spokes and steel hub) down to 555gr (without QR skewer), still a nice savings of nearly 200gr rotational weight once the skewer weight is added back in.
    The wider spoke crossing pairs might normally need slightly longer spokes, original spokes might be slightly too short if orginal hub were re-used but my replacement hub had a slightly larger spoke circle hole diameter (couple mm) so the re-used spokes were perfect length.

    As in Tig's wheel, the crossing location for each pair was too close to the hub flange to try interlacing the paired spokes.

    Resulting 12 spoke wheel seems plenty strong for the abuse my 60 lbd daughter will give it. Nice thing about 12 spokes on 36 holes is that the side-to-side orientation of the spokes in the rim holes is correct (unlike an unpaired 18 spoke on 36 hole wheel).
    Can you please share more detailed pictures for lacing 12>36, specially on both sides of wheel? I am trying to do the same... first 6 spokes on one side are visible and easy to follow but I am lost on the other hub side. Probably there should be 3 holes offset but I am not sure ...
    Thanks!

  9. #34
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    For another view, look clioserat the second photo in post # 29 above. This was a 24" wheel but exact same concept applies. Starting on left side, lace three outbound spokes in every 6th hub flange hole, then lace the three inbound spokes so that they are 3 hub flange holes away from the outboard spokes (leaving two empty hub holes between each occupied hub hole). Form three crossed spoke pairs, each with an inbound and outbound spoke and lace them to the rim such that there are 5 empty rim holes between each crossed pair of inboard/outbound spokes. The crossed pair will not actually interlace as the crossing point is too close to the hub flange, this crossing is equivalent to the second crossing of a standard 3x pattern (the first and last crossing are just missing because those spokes are gone).
    Note that the alignment of the hub holes is 10° different side-to-side, the hub spoke holes are not directly across from the holes on opposite flange. To start lacing the opposite side, find the hub hole on the right flange that is directly between two unoccupied spoke holes on the left flange. Put an inbound spoke in this right flange hole (head facing out) and lace it into the rim hole that is centered three rim holes away from the spokes on the left side. The inbound/outbound spokes and the forward/backwards angles of both sides of the wheel can either form a slightly twisted mirror image to each other or they can be identical, functionally it does not really matter but I like to shoot for mirror image where the inbound spokes for both sides (heads out) both angle in same for/aft direction instead of having two spokes from left/right side angled in same direction but with one heads in, one heads out. Once you get first spoke in the hub and angled on the right side, put in the other two inboard spokes following the spacing established on left side. If your rims are drilled to angle the spoke heads left/right, these should all be occupied by spokes going to correct side.
    Last edited by GrayJay; 04-22-2015 at 08:58 AM.

  10. #35
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    Thanks a lot for instrucitons, it worked
    Front wheel went from 820gr -> 519 gr (without skewer). Using old Shimano XT HB-M730 hub - 139 gr.
    Rim is Jalco 20 inch (340 gr).



    I need to find hyperglide 36H hub now to continue with rear wheel. I only have 32H which is not usable for 36h rim.

  11. #36
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    Very terriffic thread!

    I'm wondering what are some good parts, particularly hub, sources?

    I'm contemplating a wheel build for my daughters 20" hotrock, and I'd probably keep it single speed. I'd rather not drop $150 or so on a hub for this application...

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garasaki View Post
    Very terriffic thread!

    I'm wondering what are some good parts, particularly hub, sources?

    I'm contemplating a wheel build for my daughters 20" hotrock, and I'd probably keep it single speed. I'd rather not drop $150 or so on a hub for this application...
    To narrow down your hub selection, measure the frames rear dropout width and determine if you are keeping existing freewheel or upgrading to cassette system. Some kids bikes are 130mm width instead of 135mm. Re-using an old freewheel hub can work fine on kids bike to add a quick release if you are re-using stock freewheel and not interested in upgrading shifting to 8/9/10 cog casette.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigWorld View Post
    I've updated my article on paired lacing with the step-by-step way I go about it. As for interlacing the spokes, it depends. Take a look down the bottom of the article and there are two example pics of interlaced and non-interlaced. I'd interlace if you can, but it probably doesn't matter unless you need the clearance. If its too hard to interlace then don't.
    This is awesome.. I'm following step by step.. however, I think it needs correcting?
    Lacing the wheel
    The only real trick is to get two vacant spoke holes either side of the valve hole (this gives you maximum space around the valve hole for tyre inflation). You do this as follows:

    hold hub so drive side is facing towards you;
    insert key spoke from outside of DS flange;
    put this spoke into the second rim hole anticlockwise from the valve hole;
    add three more spokes into the DS flange, lacing them every 8 holes from the key spoke;
    flip wheel around sou you are now looking at NDS flange;
    sight along flange and insert spoke from outside of NDS flange into closest anti-clockwise hole from the DS key spoke. This spoke will enter the rim hole that is exactly one hole anti-clockwise from the key spoke;
    repeat NDS outside spoke process for the other 3 spokes;
    flip wheel so looking at DS flange, twist hub anti-clockwise so spokes are pulled tight, insert DS spoke from inside-out into the next clockwise spoke hole from the key spoke, lace this spoke into the rim hole 12 holes clockwise from the key spoke position, repeat for 3 other spokes;
    flip wheel and lace 4 remaining leading spokes on the NDS flange in the same way.
    At least I think thats how it needs to be for my 16" 32/16 paired spoek build that I'm doing

  14. #39
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    Wow! Great thread for techno-geeks like me! Still not relevant for my kids, but might be useful in a few years.

  15. #40
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    Anyone tried Weinmann 519 rims for a 24" build??
    They seem to be readily available, not too expensive and unless I'm mistaken have a rim brake track, are around 400grams and have correct MTB ERD of 507

  16. #41
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    I am going to be building up a 24" Fat Front wheel (Disc) with the following rim. The rim has dual spokes holes. Will this present a problem when building it with a 16 Paired Spoke lacing?

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcp_nz View Post
    Anyone tried Weinmann 519 rims for a 24" build??
    They seem to be readily available, not too expensive and unless I'm mistaken have a rim brake track, are around 400grams and have correct MTB ERD of 507
    519s should be very similar to the generic singlewall rims I built up into a 12(f), 18(r) wheelset in post #29 above, they should work fine as a low-spoke count wheel, singlewall rims work fine for kid-weight riders. No compelling reason to go to heavier, studier doublewall rims for a kid. The non-eyelet design is easy to modify (with a drillbit) to reduce the spoke angularity if you are lacing with a pattern that does not follow the intended rim drilling pattern (such as an evenly spaced 16 spokes on 32 hole or an 18 spoke on 36 hole wheel).

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viva Borracho View Post
    I am going to be building up a 24" Fat Front wheel (Disc) with the following rim. The rim has dual spokes holes. Will this present a problem when building it with a 16 Paired Spoke lacing?
    No link was included, not sure what rim...
    The primary reason to use paired lacing on a rim with 32 holes is to keep the spokes aligned in the angled holes correctly. In any case, if the fat rim was drilled with 32 spoke holes on both sides (64 holes total), then there is no compelling reason to use paired lacing. You should be able to evenly lace it with 16 spokes which will better distribute the load around the rim and makes it easier to true. Only other downside to even lacing of a 16 spoke wheel (or 18 on 36 hole) is that because the spoke holes in the two hub flanges are rotationally offset from each other by 1/32 of 360 degrees (11.25 degree), the effective spoke lengths will be slightly longer for one side, shorter for the other to accommodate the 5.625 degree wind-up on each side. For this reason, I really like building 12 spoke kid wheels on 36 hole hubs and rims, it produces a completely symmetrical wheel with all the spokes correctly oriented in the rim holes and no rotational offset at the hub.

  19. #44
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    Anyone know of a 24" 28h rim brake compatible rim - MTB ISO not BMX?
    Trying to use an existing hub cos it free but only seeing 36h rim brake rims.

    Sure theres the crest available in 28h but thats disc only and the frame is not.

    Alternatively any suggestions for lacing 36h rim to 28h hub?? 67lb rider.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcp_nz View Post
    Anyone know of a 24" 28h rim brake compatible rim - MTB ISO not BMX? Trying to use an existing hub cos it free but only seeing 36h rim brake rims.Alternatively any suggestions for lacing 36h rim to 28h hub?? 67lb rider.
    If you use a singlewall rim, it is fairly easy to re-drill the 36H rim to evenly accommodate a different number of spokes. Comparing a 36H and 28H rim pattern, you have 4 holes in identical positions for both patterns at 12:00,3:00,6:00 & 9:00. The 36H pattern then has 8 spokes between each of these shared 4, while the 28h pattern has 6 holes between the shared 4. I have sucessfuly re-drilled rims to reduce spoke count by 4 spokes (28 to 24), in your case dropping the rim pattern by 8 spokes should be even easier because the new holes needed will be even further away from the old holes. You could build a 14-spoke radial front wheel using your 28 hole hub, start with a 36 hole hub and re-use the two spoke holes at 12:00 and 6:00, drill 6 new holes evenly spaced on both the 3:00 and 9:00 sides of the rim so you wind up with 14 evenly spaced rim holes (and 34 unused hole from the original 36h pattern). Note that a 14 spoke wheel must be radial laced, you cannot do a crossed 14 spoke wheel since each flange has an odd number of spokes (7).
    For the rear wheel, probably best option is to completely re-drill a 36H rim to 28 holes, re-use the 4 existing spoke holes at 12,3,6&9:00, then drill 6 evenly spaced holes between each of the 4 re-used holes. As a slight variant to 28H, you could also build it as a 21H rear wheel with 14 (crossed) spokes on the drive side, 7 radial spokes on the non-drive side.

  21. #46
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    There's some great information on this thread.

    I just bought my 6 year son a used MT60 that I'm tyring to improve and lighten up without spending much on it. Can I achieve the 16 spoke lacing with the current spokes? Is it possible to achieve the 16 spoke lacing without removing all of the spokes, just the 16 that I don't want anymore? From the pictures, I think I can do this by removing 2 spokes and leaving the next 2, removing the next 2... Am I missing anything?

    Thanks for the help.

  22. #47
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    Starting from a standard 3x 32 spoke wheel, you cannot do paired lacing by simply removing 1/2 the spokes. With paired lacing, you want two occupied rim holes, followed by two unoccupied rim holes. Problem is that if you tried to produce this pattern at the rim by simply removing spokes, you would remove all of the spokes from one direction of each crossed spoke pair and the remaining spokes would no longer be tension balanced, extremely loose. What you want to achieve instead is to remove every-other crossed spoke pair from each side of the wheel and also widen the separation at the rim between the remaining pair of crossed spokes so that the resulting wheel is still tension balanced and also minimizes the gaps between unused spoke holes on the rim. Read Tigs description of fractional lacing spoke length calculation to get the correct spoke length for paired lacing pattern.
    If you started with a 3x 32 spoke rim and simply removed every-other spoke pair, this would result in a pattern at the rim of 4 occupied spoke holes, then a large gap of 4 unoccupied holes before the next set of 2 spoke pairs.

    It would only work to produce a radial laced paired spoke lacing pattern removing 1/2 the spokes if you started with a 32 spoke radial laced wheel since there are no same-side crossed spoke pairs to worry about.

    You probably stand a better chance of being able to re-use existing spokes if you skip the paired lacing pattern and instead lace the wheel using every-other hole on the rim, putting the spokes from one of the 2 hub flanges into rim holes oriented the wrong direction. You will still need to widen the separation between the same side spoke pairs so there are 3 rim spoke holes between each pair of crossed spokes, going from pattern of having 1 (opposite side) spoke hole between each same side crossed pair. The spokes will need to be slightly longer to do this but you can likely compensate by changing the pattern of which hub flange spoke holes are occupied by the remaining spokes in order to compensate. It you were also changing to a better hub for the re-build, then you could also select a new hub with slightly wider flange diameter to compensate for the difference in effective spoke length.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fat & Skinny View Post
    There's some great information on this thread.

    I just bought my 6 year son a used MT60 that I'm tyring to improve and lighten up without spending much on it. Can I achieve the 16 spoke lacing with the current spokes? Is it possible to achieve the 16 spoke lacing without removing all of the spokes, just the 16 that I don't want anymore? From the pictures, I think I can do this by removing 2 spokes and leaving the next 2, removing the next 2... Am I missing anything?

    Thanks for the help.
    Last edited by GrayJay; 03-04-2016 at 10:58 AM.

  23. #48
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    Thanks for the info GrayJay. I'm glad I asked before I started tearing into these wheels. I'm going to hold off on any spoke change until I update the hubs.

    Thanks again.

  24. #49
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    I am building a bike for my 8 year old daughter. Right now I am trying to order the last things needed. My plan is pair spoked wheels with 18 spokes based on a Alienation Deviant rim. But I am not sure that I have calculated the right length.

    The rim has an ERD of 489mm, the spoke holes are somewhat offset. Don't know how much. The hubs are probably going to be Deore CL hubs. HB-M615 and FH-M615 with 36 holes.

    My calculations says that I can use 248mm spokes everywhere but it doesn't feel right. Can someone help me to verify or tell me i'm wrong?

    Would it work if I just built it like a 36 spoke wheel but without 18 of the spokes? Could I just use "normal" length spokes then?
    Last edited by Gilgo; 03-13-2016 at 10:49 AM.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilgo View Post
    I am building a bike for my 8 year old daughter. Right now I am trying to order the last things needed. My plan is pair spoked wheels with 18 spokes based on a Alienation Deviant rim. But I am not sure that I have calculated the right length.

    The rim has an ERD of 489mm, the spoke holes are somewhat offset. Don't know how much. The hubs are probably going to be Deore CL hubs. HB-M615 and FH-M615 with 36 holes.

    My calculations says that I can use 248mm spokes everywhere but it doesn't feel right. Can someone help me to verify or tell me i'm wrong?

    Would it work if I just built it like a 36 spoke wheel but without 18 of the spokes? Could I just use "normal" length spokes then?
    Gilco- I do not think you can do paired lacing of a 18 spoke wheel using 36 hole rim & hub. You would have 9 spokes on each side of the wheel but 9 is an odd number so you then cannot pair those 9 spokes into same-side crossed pairs. (Paired lacing works for 32 hole parts because 1/4 of 32 is an even number producing 8 crossed spoke pairs for the wheel.)
    The entire reason to do paired lacing on a 32 hole wheel is to keep the spokes placed in rim holes with the correct offset. I suppose you could do paired lacing on a rim-brake 18 spoke front wheel if you radial lace instead of using same-side crossed pair pattern since radial lacing is insensitive to the number of spoke crosses (0).

    Using 36 hole hubs and rims, you are better off building with 12 evenly spaced spokes, 6 per side laced in three crossed pairs. I think that 12 spokes rear wheel would still be fine for a kid on a 20" size, the small rim diameter moves the spoke holes closer together as compared to larger rims. If you do still want to built the rear with more than 12 spokes, instead do an 18 spoke wheel with 12 spokes drive side, 6 NDS or else do a 24 spoke wheel using all 18 of the crossed spokes on DS, 9 spokes on the NDS that are radial laced (since 9 is an odd number) or else crows foot lacing (3X3=9) on the NDS if you want to go crazy with ordering different spoke lengths.

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