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  1. #1
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    Marin Hidden Canyon 20". Going to put XTR on it. (Now Complete! post #9)

    The other day I took my son for his first mtn bike ride on his BMX race bike. I thought I would just give it a try and see how things went. I geared it down to the lowest setting I had the gears for a 35/16 or 133" roll out. He usually races on 37/14 or 161" roll out. He did well for his first time but his tires were just too narrow for the slightly sandier areas. He sunk instantly. Also the gearing though low, was still not low enough on some parts. He also pretty much stood for the whole 6.5mile loop. We took a lot of breaks but I wanted to make the experience more enjoyable for him. So I started my search.



    I looked at the Specialized, Trek, GT, Performance and a few others. Come to find out there's nothing cool out there. I was going to get him a Scott Scale 20" but the 2011's are all sold out and it would be a while before the 2012's came in. I decided to get him the Marin Hidden Canyon 20"



    I was especially excited after I read that the other thread about the 20lb Marin that quasi888 did for his son and it was way too cool.

    The 20-pound Geared 20" Hardtail Project (Customized Marin Hidden Canyon)

    So I started my research on what it would take to get various types of parts and make them fit. I than realized that I had an old S-Works HT that I built but haven't ridden in 11 years. I built it with full XTR and it was just hanging on my wall doing nothing. So my first pass through the Marin Hidden Canyon looks like I'm going to keep the frame, fork and maybe seat. All of the other parts are going. Here's a pic of my SW HT. Still love the bike but would rather put it to use in other ways.



    The only parts I can't reuse off the SW HT are the hubs and cranks with the associated bits that go with them. Here's the current plan for a 1x8 build;

    Wheels - (new) Sun Envy Lite 36h, Shimano XT M775, dbl butted spokes.
    Brakes - XTR from my bike
    Levers - XTR from my bike
    Shifters - XTR from my bike
    Cassett - XTR from my bike, 8 spd. I have to verify it will fit the XT hub. If someone knows or has tried it, please chime in.
    Derailluers - XTR from my bike for the rear, Simple guide for the front
    Handlebars - Titec titanium from my bike but it's 1". I may get a newer 31.8mm bar.
    Stem - (new) probably a 70-75mm
    Grips - (new) tbd
    Tires - Stock Marin for right now
    Pedals - (new) Shimano PD-540M clipless
    Bottom Bracket - (new) Sinz Crmo or Titanium
    Cranks (new) Sinz 140mm
    Chainring - 34 or 35. I already have a lot of different sizes I could try to get the best ratios

    The above "new" parts add up to a little under $600. I got the Marin at Sports Chalet for $238 ($280 less additional 15% because the frame was scratched). In the end, he'll have a pretty nice bike for $850. Not bad for a bike with XTR.

    And just because I'm proud of my boy, here's another pic of him at the track.



    Thanks for reading. I'll post pics once I complete the bike. Should take me a couple of weeks to get the parts and have the rims built up. I also have to see if the parts I'm assuming fit actually fit.
    Last edited by stom_m3; 08-12-2011 at 10:31 PM. Reason: updated title

  2. #2
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    Thats awesome. Some will say too much money, but who wants their kid to have to ride a hooptie.

  3. #3
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    Nice. I'd do the same, if I had a bike lying around.

  4. #4
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    I had to lace a wheel to my old XT hub in order to give my son 8 gears. I also only used a single up front to reduce weight and cut down on confusion. I did almost exactly what you're planning with all the XT stuff of my old Cannondale.
    I like turtles

  5. #5
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    Thanks all!

    Nyrr496 - My hubs are 32 hole which is why I couldn't reuse them. What were yours and were you able to find a 32 hole rim? In my search, I was unsuccessful. thanks,

  6. #6
    turtles make me hot
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    I used Velocity Aeroheats. Wish I could figure out how to post pics. I really love how my son's bike came out.
    I like turtles

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYrr496 View Post
    I used Velocity Aeroheats. Wish I could figure out how to post pics. I really love how my son's bike came out.
    Thanks for the reply. I looked at the website and they do make a 32 spoke hole 20" rim. Of course now I have two options, My XTR hubs with Velocity Aeroheat AT rims and I would have to build them or new XT M775 (disc brake compatible) hubs with Sun Envy Lite rims and Pro Wheel Builders build them. I'm thinking about using PWB since I don't know how to build wheels but I may take on the challenge. Also, I can leverage the hubs to his next wheel with disc brakes.

    I would love to see how your son's bike came out. Use Photobucket and they will provide you direct links to put into your thread. It's easy if you do it once. The Photobucket website is user friendly too. I'm sure there are a lot more websites but I use that one. Thanks,

  8. #8
    turtles make me hot
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    Thanks. I'll try it.
    I like turtles

  9. #9
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    Done!

    I was able to finish my son's bike today! I ended up taking a stock Marin, scrapping all but the frame, fork, headset, stem, seat. I modified the front fork and increased the front travel from 40mm to 60mm. Easy modification by cutting down a bumper. I also whacked about 2" off the steerer tube. He doesn't like the seat so I'll probably change the seat and cut the seat post down a bit from the 400mm length. Here's how the build ended up;

    Frame - Marin Hidden Canyon
    Fork - SR 60mm travel (increased from 40mm by modifying bumper and cut steerer down)
    Seat - Stock
    Rims - Sun Envy Lite
    Spokes/Nipple - Sapim Dbl Butted and Gold Alloy Nipples
    Hubs - XT 36h
    Brakes - XTR (resuse)
    Levers - XTR (resuse)
    Cassette - 12-32 XTR (resuse)
    Shifter Front - None
    Shifter Rear - XTR (resuse)
    Front Derailleur - XTR (reuse) using as chain guide
    Rear Derailleur - XTR (reuse)
    Handlebar - Titec Titanium (reuse)
    Stem - Marin
    Grips - Sette
    Tires - IRC Siren 20x1.75
    Pedals - Shimano PD-M540
    Cranks - Sinz 140mm
    Bottom Bracket - Sinz Ti 113mm (should have bought 108mm)
    Chainring - MCS 35t
    Chain - Shimano 8spd (reuse)
    Seat Post - Kalloy 27.2mm (reuse)

    Finished project!


    Sun Envy Lite w/ XT hubs.


    Putting the brakes, bars, derailleurs on.


    Getting ready for the final adjustments.


    Now to take him out for his first ride before he goes to football practice!

  10. #10
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    Don't keep us waiting!

    Quote Originally Posted by stom_m3 View Post
    I was able to finish my son's bike today! I ended up taking a stock Marin, scrapping all but the frame, fork, headset, stem, seat.
    Well, what's it weigh?

  11. #11
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    Really nice job. What did taking the fork apart entail?

    My son is jumping his and actually just yesterday complained that he was bottoming out the fork.

    Why do you feel a 108 BB would have been better?
    13 Lenz Lunchbox punkass

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Really nice job. What did taking the fork apart entail?

    My son is jumping his and actually just yesterday complained that he was bottoming out the fork.

    Why do you feel a 108 BB would have been better?
    The fork mod is very easy. You can read about how I modded it here;

    Increasing SR Suntour 40mm travel fork to 60mm

    Essentially remove the top cap and bottom screw out of the right fork leg, cut down the rubber grommet and reassemble.

    Took my son for his first outing on the new bike. He ended up using 44mm of the 60mm of fork travel available (after reviewing the dirt/clean line on the stanchion). Glad I did the mod. I still haven't drilled air holes in the fork yet and I might do that soon to get smoother action on the fork.

    As for the 108mm BB, it's to have better chain alignment. Right now with the chain line runs between the 2nd/3rd smallest cog. Going in 2.5mm (per side) would have the chain line running between the 3rd/4th smallest cog. The gearing is a 1x8 so I would like it to run between the 4th/5th cog. And also note, there's still plenty of room for pedal clearance and larger chain rings.

    Right now there's two ways I'm thinking about solving the chain line; Buy Redline cranks which have more seating depth or buy a 108mm BB and put the 113mm on his race bike. The bike does shift good so I may leave it. It just annoys me a little. I don't know if annoys me enough to buy more parts though.

    As for the weight, my LBS scale weighed it at 21.9lbs. Quasi888's Marin came in at 20.8lbs. I can account for most of the weight difference;
    - 1.75 vs 1.5 IRC Siren tires
    - Stem, I'm still using stock though that may change as I do have a Truvative Team 75mm, 31.8. and Bontrager Carbon Fiber bars.
    - Seat, I'm using the stock seat but will be changing to the Odysse JR just like Quasi888 did because my son's butt is too small for the relatively large seat. He can only sit on the front half because of leg extension.
    - Sinz vs Crupi cranks
    - Seat Post, I still have the full 400mm in the tube.
    - Front Derailleur, I'm using it as a chain guide though I may remove it based on today's ride. He doesn't seem to have a problem with the chain jumping off the front.

    Last thing, I'm glad he has the push/pull shifters as opposed to the twist shift. He bangs through gears without problems. And the twister seemed to take more effort for him. Hope that helps! It was great seeing him on the trail this morning. He was so stoked.
    Last edited by stom_m3; 08-13-2011 at 02:22 PM. Reason: more detail

  13. #13
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    Nice job.

  14. #14
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    Will you adopt me? LOL! Seriously, that's an amazing bike and you are a great dad. Someday your son will look back in life and realize just how lucky he is to have you.

  15. #15
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    Weights!

    I made a couple of small changes to the bike. I replaced the seat with a THE MTN-X saddle that I had. The saddle has a much narrower profile than the fatty that came with the Marin (width 4.75" vs 6.25"). Surprisingly the saddles weigh the same. I also swapped out my Titec Ti Handlebars and Marin Stem which I had to use as a combo because the Titec is 1". A friend at work gave me his Bontrager Race X Lite Carbon bars so I could use my Truvative 31.8mm Team Stylo stem. Not really a weight savings but it is a cool look with the carbon fiber. I also removed the front derailleur based on this weekend's ride. The bike didn't have a problem with chain slip at all. Last thing, I changed the Shimano 540 pedals with my old 747's. The new Shimano pedals don't go full loose like the old pedals. My son could release out of the 540's but not as positive and quick as I would like. Here's an updated pic of the changes.



    I also weighed parts on a gram scale. (MFR = manufacturer's claim, WW = Weight Weenies claim, Scale = what I weighed)



    My scale wouldn't go past 620g so I couldn't weigh wheels, frame, fork and the heavy Marin Kenda tire. From a weight savings perspective, you can save the most weight from wheels, tires, cranks and bottom bracket. Of course by the time you change out those, you might as well add better shifting and new brakes. I tried weighing the stock Marin Kenda tires but my scale hit 620 and errored out. They are HEAVY. You could potentially save a pound switching out tires alone. I still plan on cutting off a few inches of the Seat Post but I can't imagine it saving more than 50 grams.

    Other than that, I still plan on drilling an air hole in the fork to get better actuation but that's about it. Happy riding.
    Last edited by stom_m3; 08-16-2011 at 12:26 AM. Reason: Corrected to 747

  16. #16
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    More pics

    Here are some more pics of our latest outing. He actually dropped his chain 5-6 times after I took off the front derailleur so I put it back on and got a new chain. The previous chain was stretched too far and whenever he back pedaled the chain would skip off the larger rear cogs and bind. Surprisingly, I was unaware of how much help the front derailleur guided the chain on the extreme ends of the rear cogs as well. I put it back on and will see how the next ride goes. Here are the pics.





    The ruts and steepness are actually a lot bigger than they are portrayed in the picture.

  17. #17
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    a BBG bashguard with a n-gear jumpstop would work as well. Is use that configuration.

    Nice pictures, he looks very happy.

  18. #18
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    Storm, I just picked up a Hidden Canyon off Craigslist for my 6-y/o. It looks to be about a 2005 model (Al frame, 1-1/8" threadless headset). Without looking too closely, it looks like the rear frame spacing is 130mm. Is yours 130 and you forced a 135 hub in there, or is the newer bike 135?

    Thanks

  19. #19
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    I think I measured mine at 132mm but yes, I have to pull the rear stays apart when putting on the rear rim. It's not too hard but it doesnt just fall into place. Mine actually had too much paint in the dropouts such that, I had to file the paint out of the slot. It fits perfectly now.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by stom_m3 View Post
    I think I measured mine at 132mm but yes, I have to pull the rear stays apart when putting on the rear rim. It's not too hard but it doesnt just fall into place. Mine actually had too much paint in the dropouts such that, I had to file the paint out of the slot. It fits perfectly now.
    Thanks for the info!

  21. #21
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    This is ultimately why we do what we do...

    Brain storming bike ideas for son = 3 hours
    Ordering parts = $$$
    Tearing apart my old mtn bike = 1 hour and lots of memories
    Anxiously awaiting ordered parts 1 week
    Building his new bike = 3 hours
    Sharing the experience = Priceless


  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by stom_m3 View Post
    This is ultimately why we do what we do...

    Brain storming bike ideas for son = 3 hours
    Ordering parts = $$$
    Tearing apart my old mtn bike = 1 hour and lots of memories
    Anxiously awaiting ordered parts 1 week
    Building his new bike = 3 hours
    Sharing the experience = Priceless

    The adage "A picture is worth a thousand words comes to mind" with this picture.

    Frame it!

  23. #23
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    congrats! not only on the bike but on the resulting ride

  24. #24
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    Update

    I updated a few things on the Ryan's bike; added a BBG Superlight Bashguard, put the front derailleur back on, Kenda Small Block 8 tires, and more travel increase and spring mods to his forks.

    The combination of the BBG bashguard and the FD make chain jumping non-existent. He wore threw his Sette grips already so I'll be replacing them with Sinz Expert grips which is what he uses on his BMX bike. They are also decently lighter than the Sette's.

    I've also updated the weight chart with a few more parts.








  25. #25
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    so awesome! i have gotten a fisher 20" for my son, and i need to do that fork modification to increase travel and lower the force it takes to actually move the fork, as you did. other than that i am going to stay away from putting my XTR stuff on this bike for now. i will save my extra parts for when my son grows into his 24" wheel mtn bike (which will not be too far off). then his sister can ride the 20" fisher, and the other sister after that as they grow into it.

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