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  1. #1
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    Wreckoning vs. Enduro 29

    I'm guessing this may be a popular comparison and I am in this boat myself. Who has good comparisons on the Wreckoning and an Enduro 29? I know I've seen a bit here and there through various threads but it would help to compile the evidence.

    I am on an XL aluminum E29. 6'3" 230lb. The E29 feels a bit too short in the wheelbase, reach, and stack...and is too long in the seat tube to run a 150mm dropper. I'm thinking the geo on the Wreckoning is made to order. I would most likely order it with the Monarch Plus unless there is compelling evidence for the Vivid. I will use it as an all purpose trail bike built to excel in Moab and the Colorado front range. The E29 does this very well and is not "too much bike" for my use. The Wreckoning may replace the E29 and a RIP 9 RDO so it needs to handle a wide range of riding.

    However, I would appreciate any input on the performance of the Wreckoning vs. the E29 in reference to:

    Pedaling standing and seated
    Braking
    Pedaling through chunky/ sharp terrain
    Carving corners
    Steering response/ nimbleness
    Seated pedaling position (can you get in the "sweet spot" with the STA)
    Taking drops and jumps
    Stiffness (this is a big concern after reports that the Following is not up to standards for my weight)

    I like the E29 but the geo is a bit off. It sinks into its travel on steep inclines and feels a bit sluggish when trying to sprint. I have a Giant Anthem X Advanced 29 and a Niner RIP 9 RDO as well. My dream bike is one that has the travel and capability of the E29, pedals like the AX29, and is nimble like the RIP 9 RDO. This bike may be a unicorn but I'll take something a bit closer than the E29 if it's possible.

    Thanks for any and all assistance!

  2. #2
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    Here is a thread I found recently.

    It gets a bit derailed but is a good start in my search for info.

  3. #3
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    I would suggest against the VIVID AIR not much mid stroke and having lock out will help on bigger days....

  4. #4
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    Thanks for the tip on the shock. That's what I'm thinking as well.

  5. #5
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    I keep hoping to read that the Wreckoning is similar to the Enduro 29 except it pedals better especially when accelerating or out of the saddle climbing. Through this worthless contribution to the thread, I am now subscribed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GlazedHam View Post
    I keep hoping to read that the Wreckoning is similar to the Enduro 29 except it pedals better especially when accelerating or out of the saddle climbing. Through this worthless contribution to the thread, I am now subscribed.
    Why set your sights so low? Seriously!

    I'm 5ft10, a Large E29 is only just big enough, but the BB is quite tall and the head angle not particularly slack. Then you've got the fact that all Specializeds don't pedal well compared to most single pivot bikes, and the fact that despite being significantly shorter travel, the Following is a more capable bike in every respect than the E29... The Wreckoning?

    Well... It's a Following with the volume knob turned up to 11! Everything you've read about the Following applies to the Wreckoning, except that where the geometry on the Following would write cheques that the relatively short travel back end could sometimes struggle to cash, the Wreckoning still has loads in reserve. The Following pedals exceptionally well, not just for a 120mm trail bike but full stop! I'm not going to ******** and say the Wreckoning is just as good, it's not, it's 1lb heavier and has 40mm more travel. But it is 95% as good uphill as the Following (which is to say a lot better than an E29)...

    And then you get to the descents... Mine is set up in X-Low, with a 65.5HA and 340mm BB height, nothing short of a full DH bike gives you as much confidence on the way down! A 4 bar is always going to be more "plush" (read active) than a single pivot over bumps, but you're not short on travel at 161mm with the Wreckoning anyway. If you're the kind of person that feels the need to pedal their way through boulder fields, the E29 with its taller BB and more active rear end is likely to appeal more, but the Wreckoning rider isn't concerned for such trivialities as pedall through chunky sections as they're too busy carrying way more speed into the section, and pumping the terrain to maintain that speed.

    As for cornering grip and speed, well... The Following embarrassed pretty much all comers, and the Wreckoning is just more of the same. The Monarch shock suits the frame well and is very controlled. I wouldn't look to a Vivid Air or even a coil shock unless I was only using the bike purely for lift assisted riding.

    Make no mistake, the bike totally rocks. The E29 may have been the bike to push the travel boundaries on 29er FS bikes, but it hasn't pushed thegeometry boundaries and it falls way short as a result.

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    Great response and appreciate the input. I suppose i am setting my site so low because I feel the E29 is a very capable trail bike that allows my to continue pedalling on my all-rocks-all-the-time trails. Prior to buying the E29, I worried it would just be too much bike to enjoy on the long, undulating, limestone cliff trails I ride. It does sound like the Wreckoning geometry and pedal-ability could be used as an aggressive trail bike. I guess the confirmation I'm looking for is "if the E29 is not too much bike for your trails, the the Wreckoning won't be too much bike either"

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    Do you have unusual proportions? I'm 6'2 with a 34 inseam and had plenty of room for a 150 dropper on an XL E29. Not sure if you're just deadset on a new rig, but dropping some coin on an Ohlins TTX shock with a ti spring would absolutely transform that Enduro both descending AND climbing.
    Just like a raindrop, I was born to fall.

  9. #9
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    I've read on a lot of people putting the rocker linkage from the 27.5 Enduro on the 29. Apparently it slackens the head angle and lowers the bottom bracket as well, something else to consider

  10. #10
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    I considered the 27.5 linkage but tried an offset bushing first and didn't like what it did to the pedaling performance. Plus that would shorten the reach even more.

    It's kind of a bandaid anyway...the E29 probably needs a redesign. It's current geo is where the Stumpy should be...and is.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant View Post
    Do you have unusual proportions? I'm 6'2 with a 34 inseam and had plenty of room for a 150 dropper on an XL E29. Not sure if you're just deadset on a new rig, but dropping some coin on an Ohlins TTX shock with a ti spring would absolutely transform that Enduro both descending AND climbing.
    For my part...I am 6'3" with a 35" or so inseam. I ride with a 125mm Command Post bottomed out on the seat tube. I use flat pedals and don't like the tippy-toe clipless style anymore. Since I went to flats I bet my saddle height has come down almost 2". This allows me to really engage the posterior chain muscles which provide the most power.

    I've about decided that the geo on the E29 is falling just a bit short for my desires. I want it to be longer in the reach and wheelbase, taller stack height, and a bit slacker in the head tube. On really fast descents the E29 feels just a bit too tall and squirrly when trying to move quickly side to side. I'm thinking that the evolved geo on the Wreckoning may smooth this out. My interest in the Wreckoning is more geo driven than anything else.

  12. #12
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    Really? Weird. I swap back and forth from clip to flat all the time and never adjust my seat height. Just goes to show everyone's needs on a bike are different.

    I guess just check your numbers carefully. if you want a taller stack than the E29, not sure you're gonna find it in the current market, though I may not be up to speed in that regard. The super low stack was probably the thing I hated most about my Following.
    Just like a raindrop, I was born to fall.

  13. #13
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    taller stack = higher rise bars, no?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant View Post
    I guess just check your numbers carefully. if you want a taller stack than the E29, not sure you're gonna find it in the current market, though I may not be up to speed in that regard. The super low stack was probably the thing I hated most about my Following.
    Excellent advice and I am trying to follow it. I agree on the Following numbers and that is why I stayed away. The Following XL is really just a L. However, the Wreckoning is taller in stack and longer in reach than the XL E29. This is why I first began looking at the bike. On my XL E29 I run the Command Post bottomed out on the seat tube and use a 35mm rise 800mm wide bar with about 25mm of spacer under the 60mm stem. This puts my grip height around 1" above my saddle height...right in my sweet spot.

    I live in the boonies and have no way to demo a bike. I spend months researching and going over numbers again and again to try and minimize mistakes on a purchase decision. This is why I started this thread to try and learn as much as possible. The problem is that my trigger finger is getting itchy!

    I really like the E29...a lot. I just wish it was a little higher in stack, longer in reach, longer in wheelbase, and slacker in the head tube. Firmly planted in the back of my mind is: "will Specialized do all this when they revise the E29?" If the revision happens this year...I'm sure I will not regret the Wreckoning if that's the way it goes. Or holding on to the E29 for another season. Hmmm........sleepless nights.

  15. #15
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    Resurrecting this thread in search of Wreckoning vs. 2017 E29.

  16. #16
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    MBR magazine has an article in the latest edition Wreckoning vs Trek Slash 29 vs Enduro 29. Wreckoning took top honors

  17. #17
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    Cant find it online, someone needs to scan and post it. C'mon UK'ers!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoulderfu View Post
    Cant find it online, someone needs to scan and post it. C'mon UK'ers!
    You could purchase the digital edition of the magazine, or just wait for them to post it on their website in a while

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant View Post
    Really? Weird. I swap back and forth from clip to flat all the time and never adjust my seat height. Just goes to show everyone's needs on a bike are different.

    I guess just check your numbers carefully. if you want a taller stack than the E29, not sure you're gonna find it in the current market, though I may not be up to speed in that regard. The super low stack was probably the thing I hated most about my Following.
    what were some of the the things you hated less about the Following?
    breezy shade

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by titusquasi View Post

    However, I would appreciate any input on the performance of the Wreckoning vs. the E29 in reference to:

    Pedaling standing and seated
    Braking
    Pedaling through chunky/ sharp terrain
    Carving corners
    Steering response/ nimbleness
    Seated pedaling position (can you get in the "sweet spot" with the STA)
    Taking drops and jumps
    Stiffness (this is a big concern after reports that the Following is not up to standards for my weight)

    I like the E29 but the geo is a bit off. It sinks into its travel on steep inclines and feels a bit sluggish when trying to sprint. I have a Giant Anthem X Advanced 29 and a Niner RIP 9 RDO as well. My dream bike is one that has the travel and capability of the E29, pedals like the AX29, and is nimble like the RIP 9 RDO. This bike may be a unicorn but I'll take something a bit closer than the E29 if it's possible.

    Thanks for any and all assistance!
    No big kinematic changes for the 2017 Enduro, in fact arguably worse due to more falling-rate end-stroke, making it difficult to use a coil. Push won't design an 11-6 for it due to this, and they generally know what they are doing.

    I can vouch for the older Enduro 29 version:

    Pedaling standing and seated-like sh*t generally, although not too bad seated on level smooth terrain. The harder you pedal, the worse it gets, unlike bikes with flat anti-squat curves like the Wreckoning. Up hills, especially like a soggy mattress.

    Braking-o.k., I noticed a little bit of stink-bug effect, not terrible, but it's not going to squat much in the turns either, which can be a benefit. I'd call this a wash.

    Pedaling through chunky/ sharp terrain-like crap for efficiency, the more it goes into the travel, the less anti-squat it has, so it tends to punish you for trying to charge hard through terrain. Plush, or even using "more travel" than it would while coasting due to the lower level of anti-squat, giving that "digging in" feeling, but the bikes like the Wreckoning tend to ride higher through the chunk, IME just more consistant with the descending suspension behavior, but the shock makes a big difference here as far as how "plush" or how well the suspension absorbs stuff. Sometimes the OEM tunes feel a bit harsh, but it's not indicitive of a well tuned shock.

    Carving corners-Jekyll and Hyde. Fun for carving, but the medium radius turns at high speed is where it bleeds the most speed. Riding with guys on DH bikes, this is where I scrubbed the most speed, I had to slow down more to prevent the gyroscopic rigidity from tugging the bike towards the outside of the turn. Then I had to speed up more to try and "keep up". Switching to 27.5 solved this for me and boosted me way up to 2nd in the same race format, from mid-pack. This is a 29er trait IMO and won't matter whether it's the Wreckoning or Enduro 29. I don't hold this against 29ers to a large extent, I generally like them, but it's there. Over time I found the fastest way around the bermed turns was go to as high and outside as possible and pedal through like mad. Going tighter bled more speed, possibly because the bike was being tugged more towards the ouside where it would end up in the any anyways. The other issue is on bermed trails leaning the bike over hard in some situations can cause you to drag a pedal due to the BB height.

    Steering response/ nimbleness-good. No issues with tight stuff due to decent geometry. I don't feel a 29er needs an excessively slack headtube angle, it's already not going to endo and it's going to roll like mad over stuff if you can hold on, so you might as well keep some nimbleness with the steering, rather than turn it into a boat with a HA the same as a smaller-wheeled bike. Lots of old perceptions still around about 29ers not being able to ride tight stuff, but that's due to old goofy-geometry IME.

    Seated pedaling position (can you get in the "sweet spot" with the STA)-pretty crappy.

    Taking drops and jumps-I had to work harder to make jumps and gaps on my E29. It wasn't a slow bike by any means, but I noticed the bike wouldn't go quite as far and would generally jump "flatter", I had to offset this with harder pedaling and towards the end of the day or when winded it was a bit more of an issue, where you might case something you'd otherwise make. Again, an overall 29er trait IME, but bikes in the class of the Wreckoning and E29 exaggerate this due to their beef. Drops were generally great, wheel-catchers were non-existent with the 29er.

    Stiffness (this is a big concern after reports that the Following is not up to standards for my weight)-Not earth shattering and the pivots were rather crappy. What was unacceptable was the horst-link pivots require a blind-puller and there's one on each side with no "lip" in between, so it's a major PITA to pull these, and after two seasons they were shot. It was painfully obvious Specialized didn't really intend for the bearings on this bike to be changed. The BB pivot was also strange, the only way to get the rear swingarm back on was by spreading the metal attachment and it was very difficult (and you are spreading metal). You could kind of jam it back on, but again, didn't seem like it was intended to ever take off. Although the bearings could be changed, it wasn't fun. The cable routing was also wacky (and led to sawing through the rear triangle), but I believe this has been fixed. I have doubts whether Specialized actually has any consideration to whether this bike will be used beyond a season or so. Another hit to stiffness was the stock alloy wheelset with the specialized. The tires would rub the chainstays during hard cornering. Cranking the nipples up higher helped a bit, but didn't completely eliminate the problem. Going to a carbon rim wheelset did eliminate the problem, but that's just one more issue you run into with big wheels, again, not so much an E29 issue and just a 29 issue. My bet is most 29ers don't get pushed hard enough to really make this much of an issue, but a 29er intended for gravity riding definitely gets you there.

    The biggest issue with the specialized by far was the pedaling efficiency and how it simply punishes you more the harder you pedal up hills, vs. consistent pedaling at a variety of travel points and situations. Suspension action was nothing to write home about, I put a monarch+ on it eventually, but my avalanche tuned monarch+ on my turner was infinitely better. Another thing that helped me in the before mentioned race (being able to just "let it go" on some sections).

    If the Wreckoning was available when I was looking at the RFX it would have been a much harder decision. The E29 was a fun experiment to see what 29er geometry can be, but I was looking to fix the E29s shortcomings at that point.
    Last edited by Jayem; 2 Days Ago at 02:12 PM.
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  21. #21
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    I would agree with most everything Jayem posted concerning the older E29.

    The geo on the new E29 ruled it out for me on a size XL...too short in reach for the significantly shorter stack height vs the older model.

    I bought an XL Wreckoning last fall and just returned from a trip to Moab. It really solves most every issue I had with the E29.

    The pedaling response is so much better. The Wreckoning is very interesting in that it feels firm and poppy in the middle of its stroke so it seems to respond like a shorter travel bike. However, when I encounter a large impact it sucks it up quite nicely. It feels fairly playful when weaving and hopping around but big drops feel like a pillow. There is some harshness at times under repetitive sharp impacts but I've read that an X2 drastically improves this. I may go this route or send the Monarch Plus to Avalanche.

    The E29 in size XL felt high and short and a bit unstable at high speed over rough terrain. The Wreckoning is a bit of the opposite. Most times I wish the head angle on the Wrecker was a bit steeper. It tends to flop around at slow speeds or when climbing if you get lazy or don't pay attention. I wouldn't call it a negative but I am considering getting a Works Components headset to steepen the head angle by one degree which should put it around 67 deg. I do notice that on the really steep and rough sections the slacker head angle vs. the old E29's 67.5 deg is nice...but this is a very small percentage of my riding.

    At 6'3" and 240lb the XL Wrecker is a bike that finally fits well. The stack is higher and the reach is longer vs. the old E29...both positives for me. The pedaling is much improved and I don't notice any negatives when pedaling through rough terrain or during braking. The frame is stiff enough and it looks great. I used to go Horst Link as I thought single pivots had too many drawbacks. After taking a chance on the Wreckoning...I was wrong and see no need to deal with the negatives that tend to be present in Specialized HL bikes.

    The Wrecker handled Moab like a champ and that's exactly what I was looking for.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by titusquasi View Post
    I am considering getting a Works Components headset to steepen the head angle by one degree which should put it around 67 deg.
    Great report, nice when you find a bike that works well for you. Doesn't Evil offer a Flip Cup to adjust head tube angle?

  23. #23
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    Push just posted a photo of an 11-6 on a new enduro... I love how well the enduro climbs with the steep STA. I've never ridden a wreckoning but I rode with a guy who had one a couple weeks ago and he was complaining about how it climbed. My biggest climb to date on my Enduro is 4.4k

    I agree if you ride the enduro on flat terrain it feels weird but point it up or down and it's amazing. I have a fox 36/ X2 on mine, LOVE it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    No big kinematic changes for the 2017 Enduro, in fact arguably worse due to more falling-rate end-stroke, making it difficult to use a coil. Push won't design an 11-6 for it due to this, and they generally know what they are doing.

    I can vouch for the older Enduro 29 version:

    Pedaling standing and seated-like sh*t generally, although not too bad seated on level smooth terrain. The harder you pedal, the worse it gets, unlike bikes with flat anti-squat curves like the Wreckoning. Up hills, especially like a soggy mattress.

    Braking-o.k., I noticed a little bit of stink-bug effect, not terrible, but it's not going to squat much in the turns either, which can be a benefit. I'd call this a wash.

    Pedaling through chunky/ sharp terrain-like crap for efficiency, the more it goes into the travel, the less anti-squat it has, so it tends to punish you for trying to charge hard through terrain. Plush, or even using "more travel" than it would while coasting due to the lower level of anti-squat, giving that "digging in" feeling, but the bikes like the Wreckoning tend to ride higher through the chunk, IME just more consistant with the descending suspension behavior, but the shock makes a big difference here as far as how "plush" or how well the suspension absorbs stuff. Sometimes the OEM tunes feel a bit harsh, but it's not indicitive of a well tuned shock.

    Carving corners-Jekyll and Hyde. Fun for carving, but the medium radius turns at high speed is where it bleeds the most speed. Riding with guys on DH bikes, this is where I scrubbed the most speed, I had to slow down more to prevent the gyroscopic rigidity from tugging the bike towards the outside of the turn. Then I had to speed up more to try and "keep up". Switching to 27.5 solved this for me and boosted me way up to 2nd in the same race format, from mid-pack. This is a 29er trait IMO and won't matter whether it's the Wreckoning or Enduro 29. I don't hold this against 29ers to a large extent, I generally like them, but it's there. Over time I found the fastest way around the bermed turns was go to as high and outside as possible and pedal through like mad. Going tighter bled more speed, possibly because the bike was being tugged more towards the ouside where it would end up in the any anyways. The other issue is on bermed trails leaning the bike over hard in some situations can cause you to drag a pedal due to the BB height.

    Steering response/ nimbleness-good. No issues with tight stuff due to decent geometry. I don't feel a 29er needs an excessively slack headtube angle, it's already not going to endo and it's going to roll like mad over stuff if you can hold on, so you might as well keep some nimbleness with the steering, rather than turn it into a boat with a HA the same as a smaller-wheeled bike. Lots of old perceptions still around about 29ers not being able to ride tight stuff, but that's due to old goofy-geometry IME.

    Seated pedaling position (can you get in the "sweet spot" with the STA)-pretty crappy.

    Taking drops and jumps-I had to work harder to make jumps and gaps on my E29. It wasn't a slow bike by any means, but I noticed the bike wouldn't go quite as far and would generally jump "flatter", I had to offset this with harder pedaling and towards the end of the day or when winded it was a bit more of an issue, where you might case something you'd otherwise make. Again, an overall 29er trait IME, but bikes in the class of the Wreckoning and E29 exaggerate this due to their beef. Drops were generally great, wheel-catchers were non-existent with the 29er.

    Stiffness (this is a big concern after reports that the Following is not up to standards for my weight)-Not earth shattering and the pivots were rather crappy. What was unacceptable was the horst-link pivots require a blind-puller and there's one on each side with no "lip" in between, so it's a major PITA to pull these, and after two seasons they were shot. It was painfully obvious Specialized didn't really intend for the bearings on this bike to be changed. The BB pivot was also strange, the only way to get the rear swingarm back on was by spreading the metal attachment and it was very difficult (and you are spreading metal). You could kind of jam it back on, but again, didn't seem like it was intended to ever take off. Although the bearings could be changed, it wasn't fun. The cable routing was also wacky (and led to sawing through the rear triangle), but I believe this has been fixed. I have doubts whether Specialized actually has any consideration to whether this bike will be used beyond a season or so. Another hit to stiffness was the stock alloy wheelset with the specialized. The tires would rub the chainstays during hard cornering. Cranking the nipples up higher helped a bit, but didn't completely eliminate the problem. Going to a carbon rim wheelset did eliminate the problem, but that's just one more issue you run into with big wheels, again, not so much an E29 issue and just a 29 issue. My bet is most 29ers don't get pushed hard enough to really make this much of an issue, but a 29er intended for gravity riding definitely gets you there.

    The biggest issue with the specialized by far was the pedaling efficiency and how it simply punishes you more the harder you pedal up hills, vs. consistent pedaling at a variety of travel points and situations. Suspension action was nothing to write home about, I put a monarch+ on it eventually, but my avalanche tuned monarch+ on my turner was infinitely better. Another thing that helped me in the before mentioned race (being able to just "let it go" on some sections).

    If the Wreckoning was available when I was looking at the RFX it would have been a much harder decision. The E29 was a fun experiment to see what 29er geometry can be, but I was looking to fix the E29s shortcomings at that point.
    Front Range, Colorado

  24. #24
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    Wreckoning vs. Enduro 29-img_5023.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    Push just posted a photo of an 11-6 on a new enduro... I love how well the enduro climbs with the steep STA. I've never ridden a wreckoning but I rode with a guy who had one a couple weeks ago and he was complaining about how it climbed. My biggest climb to date on my Enduro is 4.4k
    Make no mistake, I did big rides on the E29, I climbed it to the crest of the continental divide in CO, twice. It's just that such riding was more punishing on the E29. As far as balance and a good all-around bike, it wasn't that, it was way biased towards descending due to the suspension design and the fact that it unweights the front end and bogs down the harder you pedal. Massive traction, yes, but again, not balanced to give good acceleration/efficiency at the same time. I've had somewhere around 5 or 6 horst link bikes (FSRs) and these traits have always been the same, I was prepared for them with the E29, so it came as no surprise.

    As I said, Push has stated for a while that they could not design an 11-6 due to the excessive falling rate. While there are things that can be done, like big bumpers, position sensitive valves, etc., it wasn't a simple adaptation like the previous E29s. I can find Push's comments on this if you like, but they are pretty well documented in the Specialized forum. It looks like they may be close to coming out with something, but this doesn't make the stuff they said before false, it just took more time and engineering to design around. I wouldn't want to dump that much on something so proprietary, just to make up for some of the poor efficiency characteristics. I ran a custom avalanche chubbie on my FSR 6-pack and while it helped a little with pedaling, it did a lot more to the bump absorption (as it should).

    I thought it was fun to experiment with the E29 geometry, but now that several manufacturers have "caught up" to that geometry, and at the same time are offering a far more efficient suspension platform, it's in the past to me. There's no advantage to the FSR design. Better traits can be had from a kona-style rear end pivot, and better yet with the split pivot, which puts the wheel on the chainstay, rather than having a pivot in between the main pivot and wheel dropout, as with the FSR, which inherently makes it flexier. Specialized really tried to convince people they had things like vertical wheelpaths and other magical properties for a few years, but luckily we got past that ridiculousness.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  26. #26
    mtbr member
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob-o View Post
    Great report, nice when you find a bike that works well for you. Doesn't Evil offer a Flip Cup to adjust head tube angle?
    They did for a short time when these new bikes (Following, Insurgent) were first released but it disappeared. I asked Evil and they said it went back into development due to some creaking issues. I believe they hope to have this option available in the future.

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