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  1. #1
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    Is Enduro racing just staged DH?

    I watched all the Winter Park Enduro videos on the main page of this site last night. Before that, I'd never paid any attention to Enduro but assumed it was a multi-stage mix of XC and downhill on one bike.

    Sounds like a cool format.

    But watching the video last night, I saw some things that surprised me. First, Enduro seems to be 90-10 split between downhill and XC. I assumed it was closer to 50-50.

    Second, the riders seemed to complain a lot about the course being more "pedally" than they are used to. So a race that looked to be 90-10 DH-XC also appears to be abnormally skewed to XC. So is a standard enduro race more like 95-5? Some of the pictures of the guys climbing were a bit laughable so I'm guessing climbing isn't a big part of their training.

    If the latter is true, what makes Enduro different from DH?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinGT View Post
    I watched all the Winter Park Enduro videos on the main page of this site last night. Before that, I'd never paid any attention to Enduro but assumed it was a multi-stage mix of XC and downhill on one bike.

    Sounds like a cool format.

    But watching the video last night, I saw some things that surprised me. First, Enduro seems to be 90-10 split between downhill and XC. I assumed it was closer to 50-50.

    Second, the riders seemed to complain a lot about the course being more "pedally" than they are used to. So a race that looked to be 90-10 DH-XC also appears to be abnormally skewed to XC. So is a standard enduro race more like 95-5? Some of the pictures of the guys climbing were a bit laughable so I'm guessing climbing isn't a big part of their training.

    If the latter is true, what makes Enduro different from DH?
    The bigger question is "what is enduro"?

    One of the alleged "first enduro events" (there are several) was an endurance DH event - basically many runs with a combined time vs a single run. That's one possible definition.

    Another definition (which I prefer), is that enduro is DH racing with multiple runs where you need to climb to the top of each descent. This mimics what many riders do already - race each other down their local trails (no one in my group has raced each other UP a trail since the 90s). This format keeps us using the bikes most of us ride on our local trails, and it introduces a fatigue/recovery factor to racing that also mimics what happens on many people's normal rides. My weekend route has two steep 1200 foot climbs and an 800 foot climb, with three single track descents. How fast I push on each trail is affected by the length of the overall ride, and I don't consider that loop super strenuous.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinGT View Post
    I watched all the Winter Park Enduro videos on the main page of this site last night.

    Winter Park is only one stop in the BME series, there are two more to go yet - and those courses are much different. I'd say also look at some videos or coverage from the EWS races too, might shed a little more light on the format.

    Gurp hits it pretty on the mark, this is also a good summary/history of Enduro: Beginners Guide to Enduro: What the hell is it? - Pinkbike

    This mini interview also sums it pretty well from a racer's perspective:




    Quote Originally Posted by KevinGT View Post
    If the latter is true, what makes Enduro different from DH?
    If they were just staged DH races, everyone would be riding DH bikes, and the stages would be over in about 4-6 minutes. In contrast, Enduro stages take from 15-30 minutes to complete, and the courses are such that riding a DH bike would be distinct disadvantage.
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    I've seen many events where it is pretty legit DH type trails. the only reason people arent on DH bikes is you have a time limit to complete the circuit, and there is no way your climb 3000-6000ft on a DH bike within the time limit. The Events i've done have between 6 and 25 minute stages, with total times in the 35-50 minute range over 3-5 stages.
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    I've never done an enduro race but it sounds pretty cool. Personally, I think a race that's 50/50 downhill and XC would be fun too. Although it doesn't sound like that kind of race exists.
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  6. #6
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    I think your perspective is a bit skewed OP, since most filmed coverage will be of the knarlier section, i.e. the steep DH sections and not of all the "pedally" bits, I think this last round had a good lot of pedaling and even climbing within the tracks. It is best summed up though I think as doing DH on a Trail-AM type bike.

    If you check out Jerome Clementz Cdale on I think Bike Rumor you'll see he has dual stage rear suspension (90/150) hooked up to a twist shifter he says he uses a lot, so to me this tells me there's a lot of areas where efficiency is needed, i.e. pedally sections.

    Personally I think this series is great, would just like to see the climbs actually timed shorter so riders would have to work on their fitness and climbing ability and also maybe think even more about bike setup that is more that way inclined. It definitely is the type of race most riders can relate to as already said, very similar to what everyone does on their avg Jo rides.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    I think your perspective is a bit skewed OP, since most filmed coverage will be of the knarlier section, i.e. the steep DH sections and not of all the "pedally" bits, I think this last round had a good lot of pedaling and even climbing within the tracks. It is best summed up though I think as doing DH on a Trail-AM type bike.

    If you check out Jerome Clementz Cdale on I think Bike Rumor you'll see he has dual stage rear suspension (90/150) hooked up to a twist shifter he says he uses a lot, so to me this tells me there's a lot of areas where efficiency is needed, i.e. pedally sections.

    Personally I think this series is great, would just like to see the climbs actually timed shorter so riders would have to work on their fitness and climbing ability and also maybe think even more about bike setup that is more that way inclined. It definitely is the type of race most riders can relate to as already said, very similar to what everyone does on their avg Jo rides.
    Are you insinuating that the racers are not somehow "fit"? Having to train for the transition stages sort of defeats the purpose of the race - don't you think? The people racing these events are quite fit, those that are competitive are probably as fit as can be... I guess I miss your point.

    I'd say that with people like Jerome Clementz riding a bike that switches between 90/150, people are thinking very hard about their bike choice.
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    The better bike handlers amongst the WC XC crowd could jump on a 150mm bike and compete for a top 10 at an EWS race. Schurter, Naef, Absalon, Fumic, Fontana, Kabush, etc.

    The other way around? Not so much. Not even close.

    Very fit, yes, but not like the guys I named.
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    I would agree with that, makes total sense.

    Throw timed climbs in there, and the XC guys (and gals) will do even better. Have to admit, I don't know a lot WC XC racers - but I do think a couple of the female racers are doing pretty well, at least in EWS.
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  10. #10
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    Come on Dude, seriously, as Le Duke said, compared to a Pro XC racer, not even close to fit I watch video of them slogging up those climbs like their 25% gradient, when in fact they're just stuff that most ride every weekend in and out and most likely a lot of amateur riders could out climb them, but not out descend. Right now it is DH biased by a large margin, easily the time "limits" between stages are a joke, they're like the time between rally stages, you can get there just chugging along quite easily once you don't have a mechanical problem. Because it is DH biased the bikes they ride are also such and tyres, make it an honest time between stage finish and start and then we'd see who does what. Actually I'd like to see some of the XC Pros give it a go if they did introduce hard pedaling between stages, where you have top push it because for every 10 seconds late you loose equivalent on the stage, or have the climbs timed as well and count into the overall time, heck make them technical and not fire-roads for even more fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by jhazard View Post
    Are you insinuating that the racers are not somehow "fit"? Having to train for the transition stages sort of defeats the purpose of the race - don't you think? The people racing these events are quite fit, those that are competitive are probably as fit as can be... I guess I miss your point.

    I'd say that with people like Jerome Clementz riding a bike that switches between 90/150, people are thinking very hard about their bike choice.
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  11. #11
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    Indeed. Heather Irmiger, Rosara Joseph, Krista Park, Sue Haywood, Teal Stetson-Lea, and Cecile Ravanel have or still do race WC XC.

    One thing that comes into play, particularly on the more pedal-heavy downhill sections, is the ability to, and familiarity with, controlling the bike when absolutely on the limit. I think having absolutely massive fitness would definitely help in this regard; you're either (a) used to such things and/or (b) have developed fitness that results in leg/lung power exceeding your handling skills. Thus, you never really push the limits, and everything is relatively comfortable, in terms of physical stress during the event.
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  12. #12
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    Is Enduro racing just staged DH?

    Well, every race is different, but I remember reading that Brian Lopes barely had time to pull his helmet back down before running out of allotted time on a transfer leg in last years Crankworx Enduro. When Lopes is close to running out of time, those transfers sound tight.

    I don't see any reason to change the format from time allotments to timed transfers. But I would like to see XC races on courses like those in the EWS or the BME series.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Come on Dude, seriously, as Le Duke said, compared to a Pro XC racer, not even close to fit I watch video of them slogging up those climbs like their 25% gradient, when in fact they're just stuff that most ride every weekend in and out and most likely a lot of amateur riders could out climb them, but not out descend. Right now it is DH biased by a large margin, easily the time "limits" between stages are a joke, they're like the time between rally stages, you can get there just chugging along quite easily once you don't have a mechanical problem. Because it is DH biased the bikes they ride are also such and tyres, make it an honest time between stage finish and start and then we'd see who does what. Actually I'd like to see some of the XC Pros give it a go if they did introduce hard pedaling between stages, where you have top push it because for every 10 seconds late you loose equivalent on the stage, or have the climbs timed as well and count into the overall time, heck make them technical and not fire-roads for even more fun.
    Of course its "DH Biased". It's even been described as DH racing on a trail bike, which is fairly accurate. Why is barreling down a trail, very fast, on the appropriate bike a bad thing - especially when most who are participating in such events, understand this and enjoy it? Its what a lot of people do when out riding with friends - grind through the climbs and race the downhill parts, on a bike they ride every day. It's how they've been raced in europe for a long time.

    Tracking time on the transition stages would effectively make it just another XC race. Climbing from point A to B will take at least X amount of energy no matter what you do - run, walk, ride fast. There's no free lunch in climbing up a hill... They all have to get there.

    If enduro favored DH racers and bikes, they'd be dominating all the enduro series that out there, but this is not the case. The current world champ DH racer got smoked at the last event he participated in. WC XC racers (as Le Duke pointed out) do very well in these races.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Indeed. Heather Irmiger, Rosara Joseph, Krista Park, Sue Haywood, Teal Stetson-Lea, and Cecile Ravanel have or still do race WC XC.

    One thing that comes into play, particularly on the more pedal-heavy downhill sections, is the ability to, and familiarity with, controlling the bike when absolutely on the limit. I think having absolutely massive fitness would definitely help in this regard; you're either (a) used to such things and/or (b) have developed fitness that results in leg/lung power exceeding your handling skills. Thus, you never really push the limits, and everything is relatively comfortable, in terms of physical stress during the event.
    Agree here too... pretty good description of the fatigue/control factor.

    That is why I feel its a pretty fair "fight", if one wants to put in that context.

    WC XC racers getting used to riding at that limit, on perhaps more challenging terrain -upping their skills game a bit (NOT to say they don't have skills, they certainly do)... And the riders coming from a DH background definitely have to up their fitness/endurance for the "pedal heavy dh sections", of which there seems to be a lot of.
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  15. #15
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    I think to describe enduro racing in terms of numbers is wrong

    People wanted to have races that were more fun for the majority of riders.(then the current race formats allowed for) That's all it is. Some people love 24 hr races some love 4x some love hill climbs. Enduro is one of the many race formats that were out there and its caught on.


    Sad part is it will get ruined by its own success. People that take the things to seriously will start complaining to make more standards. Soon it will be less about haveing a fun couple days of racing and more about having a "true enduro" race.

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    ^^^
    True.
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    I'd like to see a loose 1:5 ratio, uphill to downhill, in terms of timed sections.

    Not length of stage; a 5km uphill will take significantly longer than a 5km downhill. Just the estimated time. One uphill section of approximately 10 minutes, 5 downhill sections of 50 minutes or so in length. Maybe make the uphill in conjunction with a downhill section, as one complete stage, twenty minutes of soul crushing effort.

    The rest of the uphill sections don't count, with relatively easy time limits, with penalties for being outside of them. I think you'd still have the "spirit" of enduro, while discouraging the sport from morphing into an extension of DH or XC.

    Personally, the fact that people rode chairlifts at the WP EWS race makes me sad. And that they cancelled a stage because the lifts were down, even worse.
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    Never said have "XC" type time in between stages, but just not so loose and easy you can put it in your granny and just easily pedal your way up while just shooting the **** with your buds. I'm just saying cut out the chairlift all together, unless the stage itself has some good pedal or uphill bits in it, make it more like the last round in Colorado at Trestle, with real stages that have some of everything, give the "true" all rounders a chance. Still think Jerome Clementz would be at the top, as he seems to get the whole idea, that's it's not just about having handling skills on the DH, but also having some good fitness. Right now, I can't wait to see the next rounds coverage, think it's most definitely the most interesting racing on right now, it's something easy to relate to as others have said.

    I've got the heaviest bike out of all I ride with, yet I'm always the first to the top of the hill and then have to wait on the others on their lighter bikes because they don't want to put in the effort and actually work a bit harder, really kills the whole thing and then on the downs have to wait and re-group again, so neither way, up nor down do their light bikes help them it seems.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Never said have "XC" type time in between stages, but just not so loose and easy you can put it in your granny and just easily pedal your way up while just shooting the **** with your buds. I'm just saying cut out the chairlift all together, unless the stage itself has some good pedal or uphill bits in it, make it more like the last round in Colorado at Trestle, with real stages that have some of everything, give the "true" all rounders a chance. Still think Jerome Clementz would be at the top, as he seems to get the whole idea, that's it's not just about having handling skills on the DH, but also having some good fitness. Right now, I can't wait to see the next rounds coverage, think it's most definitely the most interesting racing on right now, it's something easy to relate to as others have said.

    I've got the heaviest bike out of all I ride with, yet I'm always the first to the top of the hill and then have to wait on the others on their lighter bikes because they don't want to put in the effort and actually work a bit harder, really kills the whole thing and then on the downs have to wait and re-group again, so neither way, up nor down do their light bikes help them it seems.
    Which "all rounders" aren't getting their chance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuglio View Post
    People that take the things to seriously will start complaining to make more standards. Soon it will be less about haveing a fun couple days of racing and more about having a "true enduro" race.
    Fug is right....
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuglio View Post
    Sad part is it will get ruined by its own success. People that take the things to seriously will start complaining to make more standards. Soon it will be less about haveing a fun couple days of racing and more about having a "true enduro" race.
    It'll be just like XC racing in the late 80's-early 90's, then DH, then cyclocross (happening now)... the folks who started it will be pissed when the "athletes" decide to compete and "ruin" it for everyone else

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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyrod74 View Post
    It'll be just like XC racing in the late 80's-early 90's, then DH, then cyclocross (happening now)... the folks who started it will be pissed when the "athletes" decide to compete and "ruin" it for everyone else
    Its a natural de evolution I guess. Im not to worrierd aboit it. I like uphill suffer fests in racing fun to watch. People dig deep. Not that. They arnt digging deep in enduro their just to far past me fo me too see.

    The race that has me the most excited that is another "differnt format" is the red bull final decent.. 12 hr down hill next time its at angel fire im there!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuglio View Post
    Its a natural de evolution I guess. Im not to worrierd aboit it. I like uphill suffer fests in racing fun to watch. People dig deep. Not that. They arnt digging deep in enduro their just to far past me fo me too see.

    The race that has me the most excited that is another "differnt format" is the red bull final decent.. 12 hr down hill next time its at angel fire im there!!!
    Yeah, but its just downhill and therefore really easy.

    LOTS of fun though
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  23. #23
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    Why is it that people always try to twist what others say? Where did I say DH was easy?
    Quote Originally Posted by jhazard View Post
    Yeah, but its just downhill and therefore really easy.

    LOTS of fun though
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Why is it that people always try to twist what others say? Where did I say DH was easy?
    People like Lynx are why I love racing!!

    I just ride behind them the whole race and and hold a one person conversation. Saying things like "How many miles have we done" , "What Gear are you in, How many more hills", "What Psi are you running".. and my favorite during race question, "do you go on mtbr?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by jhazard View Post
    Yeah, but its just downhill and therefore really easy.

    LOTS of fun though
    Lets Do a team race Next Time they hold a 12hr DH around here.

    Call ourselves team Apathy and shoot for .... 3 laps?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Why is it that people always try to twist what others say? Where did I say DH was easy?
    Hmmm... you got me there.

    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    that's it's not just about having handling skills on the DH, but also having some good fitness.
    So what are you implying there? One only needs handling skills and you'll be good on the DH? DHers possess "bad" fitness? Its definitely not equal to a tough climb? What?

    In the context of enduro races, the DH is quite demanding (and it's not really just "DH"). Somehow, it doesn't seem 'honest' enough though. Don't understand that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuglio View Post
    Lets Do a team race Next Time they hold a 12hr DH around here.

    Call ourselves team Apathy and shoot for .... 3 laps?
    12hr DH races are blast. Deal.
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    Chairlifts are need if the course is being held in big mountains. They are making multiple runs on the hill, it would take forever to put on the event. I'm sure there are plenty of pedaling sections they don't show us, because who really wants to watch someone slowly climb a hill?

    Designing a Enduro course is very challenging. You don't want it to be either to XC or DH. It should be a Enduro course if people win or either XC or DH bikes. It is a fine line on design. My best description of a Enduro would be a Mountain Bike Sprint.

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    All I'm saying is that the fitter riders are not fully benefiting from being fit, whereas the more skilled descenders are getting full on catered to. I liken it to the guys I ride with, I am not a sports gifted type person, riding an MTB does not come naturally for me,but I like it, love it actually and when we ride, I pedal with what I consider a decent pace up climbs, while the other, more technically gifted guys take their sweet time and leave me sitting there waiting at the top for a minute to minutes depending on the climbs length. Now if I was to just head straight down the DH when I got there I wouldn't ever see them for probably most of the ride, because their skills aren't that much greater than mine, but my climbing is way stronger.

    I think it would be cool to have the riders start off "X" minute or minutes apart at the beginning of the day and whom ever get to the top first, goes first into the DH/Trail, and so on and so forth - person with the least elapsed overall time for the day wins. Those who are really fit and "All Round" will end up victorious, IMHO.

    As to Fuglio my stalker...I don't race, I don't need to prove anything to anyone, I'm as good as I am, I ride for fun and if somone's on my back wheel and I feel I'm holding them up I gladly move/pull off the trail and let them by.
    Quote Originally Posted by jhazard View Post
    So what are you implying there? One only needs handling skills and you'll be good on the DH? DHers possess "bad" fitness? Its definitely not equal to a tough climb? What?

    In the context of enduro races, the DH is quite demanding (and it's not really just "DH"). Somehow, it doesn't seem 'honest' enough though. Don't understand that.
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    Re: Is Enduro racing just staged DH?

    I consider myself maybe just above average skill level. I used to be very fit. Pounding down a DH run and trying to sprint the flats HURTS. My calves amd quads yell at me about 4 minutes into a 9 minute run.


    Sure, riding down a hill doesn't take a lot of fitness. cHARGING it take great fitness. Hanging onto the bars and sprinting out of turns in not easy. Throw in a climb or two like an enduro, and it's a full 9-15minutes of 100% effort.

    I've done 3 Enduro races. If I had been a more fit rider, I would have placed netter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DukeNeverwinter View Post
    I consider myself maybe just above average skill level. I used to be very fit. Pounding down a DH run and trying to sprint the flats HURTS. My calves amd quads yell at me about 4 minutes into a 9 minute run.


    Sure, riding down a hill doesn't take a lot of fitness. cHARGING it take great fitness. Hanging onto the bars and sprinting out of turns in not easy. Throw in a climb or two like an enduro, and it's a full 9-15minutes of 100% effort.

    I've done 3 Enduro races. If I had been a more fit rider, I would have placed netter.
    Exactly that is what a lot of people don't understand how hard a good rider can push them self to the limit. If you're not completely gases at the end of a Enduro section you did ride hard enough.

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    One race I did was won by a rather husky gentleman who can absolutely rip DH. The 2nd stage was a LONG descent that took me 21 minutes. 21 minutes of flat out as fast as you can go down a fairly technical descent. I had the 3rd fastest time, but I was still 2 minutes behind the winner. He destroyed everyone on that stage. The other 2 stages we around 6 minutes long each and had a lot of pedalling. The XC guys had the best times, but those two stages werent long enough for the fit riders to make up the time lost from Stage 2. The top 2 spots in my class were won by DH racers.

    The one thing I really enjoy about Enduro racing is it doesnt feel like racing. My buddies and I do all the climbs together, we descend one after another and sometimes have the slower riders go first. It helps them push a little harder because they dont want to get passed, and gives the faster riders in our group someone to try to chase down. At the end it feels like a regular day out riding with buddies and I've never heard a complaint.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdventureStrong View Post
    I've never done an enduro race but it sounds pretty cool. Personally, I think a race that's 50/50 downhill and XC would be fun too. Although it doesn't sound like that kind of race exists.
    I think they used to call that XC racing, but then most XC courses got wussified.
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    Re: Is Enduro racing just staged DH?

    I don't think they got wussified. I believe bikes got better, so people are riding for technical stuff regularly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob View Post
    I think they used to call that XC racing, but then most XC courses got wussified.
    That happend cause "guys with fitness" wanted a "more level playing feild"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuglio View Post
    That happend cause "guys with fitness" wanted a "more level playing feild"
    Luckily, it's swinging back the other way again. The Margarita Fullana and Wolfram Kurschat types aren't even close to winning anymore.

    You have to have great fitness AND awesome skills to win a WC XC race these days.
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    Is Enduro racing just staged DH?

    What about NON WC XC though?
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    I can only speak to where I've raced, which is out in OR. Generally speaking, the courses were rocky and rooty, often times with lots of loose turns, and if you weren't technically proficient, you were going to eat it, and eat it hard.

    Two of the courses/trails from the Oregon Enduro Series, Bend and Hood River, would be representative of normal terrain for XC races out there.

    When I lived in Hood River, Stages 2, 3, 4, 6 and 7 were part of my normal loops.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I can only speak to where I've raced, which is out in OR. Generally speaking, the courses were rocky and rooty, often times with lots of loose turns, and if you weren't technically proficient, you were going to eat it, and eat it hard.

    Two of the courses/trails from the Oregon Enduro Series, Bend and Hood River, would be representative of normal terrain for XC races out there.

    When I lived in Hood River, Stages 2, 3, 4, 6 and 7 were part of my normal loops.
    I wish they (whoever "they" are) would cover/promote more XC races with terrain like that. My limited perception is that most courses are like Sea Otter, though I realize that's not entirely fair, since the Sea Otter DH is pretty much a joke too.
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    Well Piertemaritzburg in SA last year was pretty tech for the DH sections at least, had some big drops and rock gardens, etc, but the climbs (at least what they showed) were just smooth, no step ups, roots etc to clean, just hammer and go.
    Quote Originally Posted by jhazard View Post
    I wish they (whoever "they" are) would cover/promote more XC races with terrain like that. My limited perception is that most courses are like Sea Otter, though I realize that's not entirely fair, since the Sea Otter DH is pretty much a joke too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    The better bike handlers amongst the WC XC crowd could jump on a 150mm bike and compete for a top 10 at an EWS race. Schurter, Naef, Absalon, Fumic, Fontana, Kabush, etc.

    The other way around? Not so much. Not even close.
    Its totally different efforts your training for. Its like comparing racing the kilo, to the team pursuit, to pro road racing.

    Last season Naef and Kabush actually did race enduro and they were NOT in the top 10%. I think your underestimating the fitness of a lot of people and how specific the training and efforts actually are. In a pure watts/kg, you have very different efforts between DH, enduro, and XC. One is 3-5 minutes once a day (plus tons of practice laps), one is 4-6 efforts 8-20 minutes (40 for Mega) over a 3-8 hr day, then the final is a 2hr plus sustained. Your WC DH guys all have been training with power meters for a few years now and the ones I've talked to all have crazy high watts that not a lot of XC or road guys can even hit, I'm talking track rider levels. This year your seeing DH guys trying to get fit for longer enduro races (Jared Graves, Barel, etc) and you have XC guys trying to get higher power over shorter distances and get their technical skills at a competitive level.

    I wouldn't be so sure that guys like Jerôme Clementz couldn't place pretty high in a WC XC race btw, I've been told that by one of the WC XC pros you just mentioned. ;-)

    The EWS is upping the game as well which is good since the UCI wants no part of Enduro and enduro is probably better because of it.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrooveNinja View Post
    Its totally different efforts your training for. Its like comparing racing the kilo, to the team pursuit, to pro road racing.

    Last season Naef and Kabush actually did race enduro and they were NOT in the top 10%. I think your underestimating the fitness of a lot of people and how specific the training and efforts actually are. In a pure watts/kg, you have very different efforts between DH, enduro, and XC. One is 3-5 minutes once a day (plus tons of practice laps), one is 4-6 efforts 8-20 minutes (40 for Mega) over a 3-8 hr day, then the final is a 2hr plus sustained. Your WC DH guys all have been training with power meters for a few years now and the ones I've talked to all have crazy high watts that not a lot of XC or road guys can even hit, I'm talking track rider levels. This year your seeing DH guys trying to get fit for longer enduro races (Jared Graves, Barel, etc) and you have XC guys trying to get higher power over shorter distances and get their technical skills at a competitive level.

    I wouldn't be so sure that guys like Jerôme Clementz couldn't place pretty high in a WC XC race btw, I've been told that by one of the WC XC pros you just mentioned. ;-)

    The EWS is upping the game as well which is good since the UCI wants no part of Enduro and enduro is probably better because of it.
    Ralph Naef was 6th at the Trans Provence, ahead of Adam Craig. And definitely in the top 10%. Given that it was an end-of-season diversion, instead of the focus of his season like the other guys who had been racing and training for enduro all year, I'm fairly certain he'd move up a bit if he focused on that instead of riding around on a hard tail all year. 1:19 off the podium after almost 3hrs of total timed racing.
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    Lynx what you "want" is not Enduro. It's something else, I hope Enduro doesn't devolve into that.

    Proper Enduro stages should max out at about 20% climbing (pretty sure the 80/20 is listed in the EWS rule book).

    Location and terrain will dictate lifts/shuttles/climbing.

    Enduro was born out of DH so it's naturally going to tend to be more DH. If you live in the mountains where there are long climbs it's the natural style riding that has been done for years. Climb to the top at your own pace, not xc race speed but a casual pace, get to the top hang out for a few minutes to recover and put on pads, then race your buddies down the mountain. It's the racing your buddies part that counts, nobody cares if you are the first one to the top of the climb.

    The Crankworx Enduro this weekend is a great example of what Enduro should be.

    Use the lifts to access the first two stages, then a big climb to get to stage three, another good climb to get to stage four, then use the lifts again for a peak to valley full out mega lap. All in one day. This is the style of riding we've been doing in BC for years. Technical terrain and big long days. This is why companies like Banshee, Knolly, and Norco have great "enduro" bikes already in their line and have for years.

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    No, guess not, what I want is Mountain Biking I never said they had to climb as fast as in an XC race, but not at the barely just slogging up the climb, as slow as you can, trying to conserve all your energy for the DH, this also is not what it's about IMHO Maybe it's just me, but I get sicked of the same thing down here, guys climb like snails, putting in no effort and taking easily twice as long as it should take or longer. Maybe it's because I tried Endurance racing and know what pain is and long climbs that go on for hours, but I just don't have that lazy gene in me to just throw it in granny/granny and go up a climb at barely able to balance speed when the fact is you could go up 2-3 times faster without killing yourself.

    Again, comes back to overall, all around fitness - having it for the DH is one thing and having it for the UH is another, but having it balanced so you can make the cklimb at a decent speed and then rail the DH, that takes true Enduro, or as I like to call i, Mountain Biking skill and fitness.

    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    Lynx what you "want" is not Enduro. It's something else, I hope Enduro doesn't devolve into that.

    Proper Enduro stages should max out at about 20% climbing (pretty sure the 80/20 is listed in the EWS rule book)..
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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    No, guess not, what I want is Mountain Biking

    Again, comes back to overall, all around fitness - having it for the DH is one thing and having it for the UH is another, but having it balanced so you can make the cklimb at a decent speed and then rail the DH, that takes true Enduro, or as I like to call i, Mountain Biking skill and fitness.
    Start a race series.

    Or just do "strava" segments the encompass what you want.


    As you have seen on this thread what people think is a proper test of fitness and skill varies. The ratio of up hill to DH differs from person to person. What counts as techy uphill varies. One persons tame downhill is too much for another person.

    So what can you do? Race the races and have fun.


    OR


    Lament the fact your not a pro level rider because non of the race formats suite you individual strengths and weaknesses.

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    Lynx come to BC for a wicked grassroots Enduro being raced in Whistler on September 21st. I can bet with 100% certainty you'll be thankful for generous transition times and be totally gassed at the end of the race. You'll have a big smile and the locals will have blown your mind with their times vs yours and them being "lazy" on the climbs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Ralph Naef was 6th at the Trans Provence, ahead of Adam Craig. And definitely in the top 10%. Given that it was an end-of-season diversion, instead of the focus of his season like the other guys who had been racing and training for enduro all year, I'm fairly certain he'd move up a bit if he focused on that instead of riding around on a hard tail all year. 1:19 off the podium after almost 3hrs of total timed racing.
    6th out of 17 pros is not 10%. I'm not sure about Whistler this weekend, but at Winter Park EWS there were over 140 pro men and at least 2/3rds flew over from Europe, aka, there is a ton of depth in the Euduro World Series this year, which is good for the sport. Another difference, at Trans-Provence the event is focused remote, all-mountain adventure experience and riding/racing on amazing point to point trails more than prizes or a title, where as first place at Whistler EWS first place is $12 or $15k. Whenever more is on the line at the EWS just like for XC world cups and Olympics, so people tend to focus toward those events sponsors care most about. The cool thing about TP is average riders can compete and ride on some of the most amazing technical trails, then camp ride the liaison stages next to pros. Its as opposite (in a good way) to a WC as possible and an amazing event. BTW, stage 12 of TP had 110M of climbing and 400M of descending, aka very fitness/XC oriented and Jerome still won. The dude is crazy fit and could definitely be competitive in a XC WC if he focused on it. Graves and a few others probably could as well.

    Every year you see XC guys think they are going to crush Enduro "specialist" because they are fit and a "good" bike handlers and its just a very different type of effort on very different type of terrain IMHO. If your 40 and a WC DH'er or XC'er its hard to learn new tricks or take it up a notch in either fitness or technical skills. But the young talented XC and DH guys racing at the WC level, they could definitely be competitive in enduro coming from both sides just as some of the young enduro specialists have the engines and skills to develop into WC level racers in DH and XC if they wanted.
    Last edited by GrooveNinja; 08-19-2013 at 10:02 AM.

  48. #48
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    It's like trying to get through to the locals down here with their sill myths and folk lore, it just isn't going to work is it If you gave it an honest effort on the climbs, you wouldn't have the gas to smoke the DH as fast/much and that's my point, right now it's all about DH handling skills only and the fitness involved in that.

    Would love to come to BC just them, would make an excellent birthday present, however funds just aren't there to do such a thing now, will however hopefully be across that side of the world sometime early next summer to celebrate 10 years on an MTB.
    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    Lynx come to BC for a wicked grassroots Enduro being raced in Whistler on September 21st. I can bet with 100% certainty you'll be thankful for generous transition times and be totally gassed at the end of the race. You'll have a big smile and the locals will have blown your mind with their times vs yours and them being "lazy" on the climbs.
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    We're back to the fact that Enduro evolved out of DH and not XC. It's naturally going to be more DH biased. Everyone I know even the best strongest climbers still get a bigger rush out of the DH vs climbing. Enduro is always going to be more DH biased no matter how much anyone types on the net.

    Want something different? Go organize a race. I was bummed we had no good local Enduro racing, so I organized a series this summer. It's rad fun racing.

  50. #50
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    I guess, maybe it's for wanting something a bit more than XC and not DH. Don't get me wrong, I'm stoked on the EWS, look forward to watching the recaps and highlights on DIRT after every round and think it would be a blast to participate in. Guess maybe my not having natural sport talent and having to work hard at it and for some reason enjoying the climbs more, the more tech the better plays a part.

    You have me thinking about getting something started for fun. We don't have any racing here, not real trail stuff anyway, (loads of road), maybe I will organise something like what I'm talking about as a fun event. Think I will set the course and do all the climbs at a decent clip and then maybe give a 20% grace ontop of that time and then DH runs will be timed. Thanks for putting that thought in my head, but first need to get the trail properly sorted to stop idiots who just want to go fast from cutting corners or those who think they're fast, but have people on the back wheel cutting corners to stay ahead.

    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    We're back to the fact that Enduro evolved out of DH and not XC. It's naturally going to be more DH biased. Everyone I know even the best strongest climbers still get a bigger rush out of the DH vs climbing. Enduro is always going to be more DH biased no matter how much anyone types on the net.

    Want something different? Go organize a race. I was bummed we had no good local Enduro racing, so I organized a series this summer. It's rad fun racing.
    Just read the course overview for the EWS coming up in Whistler and I like the fact that they're not allowing anyone back to the pits over the first 4 stages, this will definitely add a bit to the overall event. Still though, a total of 863m climbing for a days riding, in those mountains, not indicative of what "the Avg Joe" would do I think
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