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  1. #1
    The Riddler
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    Tubes or No Tubes...

    I am doing my first endurance event, Jay Peak 60, and I have a question for those who have done these races. I run Mavic Crossmax XL's w/ Michelin Comp S UST tires set up w/out tubes. Should I carry a tube, levers, and pump and/or fill the tires w/ stans? Any help would be great. If I should put Stans in, what do I do, just buy the mix and throw it and seal the tire back to the rim???

  2. #2
    Trail rider and racer
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    A few thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaparzo
    I am doing my first endurance event, Jay Peak 60, and I have a question for those who have done these races. I run Mavic Crossmax XL's w/ Michelin Comp S UST tires set up w/out tubes. Should I carry a tube, levers, and pump and/or fill the tires w/ stans? Any help would be great. If I should put Stans in, what do I do, just buy the mix and throw it and seal the tire back to the rim???
    I run tubeless with latex, well I use the eclipse tubeless kit (Similar to stans) with stans latex and most always in races carry a spare tube and a C02 gun so if I ever have a failure I can quickly fix a flat in the minimum time possible.

    No matter what system your using, if your racing, or general trail riding for that matter be sure to bring along a spare tube, levers and a pump.

    Also, if your doing racing and take it at all serious, the little added weight of a bit of latex is a must IMHO that you never have any failures on the trail either racing or not. I for one hate having to stop in the race to fix flats or whatever so always try to minimise risk.

    FWIW, I am entering into my second year of using the whole latex setup and I have only ever had flats when running tubes. I am yet to have Stans/Eclipse fail on me.

    Trevor!

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaparzo
    I am doing my first endurance event, Jay Peak 60, and I have a question for those who have done these races. I run Mavic Crossmax XL's w/ Michelin Comp S UST tires set up w/out tubes. Should I carry a tube, levers, and pump and/or fill the tires w/ stans? Any help would be great. If I should put Stans in, what do I do, just buy the mix and throw it and seal the tire back to the rim???
    I've run many enduros tubeless with both UST rims and non-UST rims, and UST and non-UST rubber. Right now I've been running non-UST rim and tire setup for 4+ months with very good results. Regardless of tubeless setup, I always recommend bringing a spare tube to quickly fix a flat (evenwhen using sealant)

    Regardless of tire setup, simply put some Stan's or homebrew sealant in the tire and inflate.

  4. #4
    umm...yea
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    Bonking ... not feelin' well Wish I'd done it....

    I've never run tubeless before, although my bike has UST wheels (XTR). I was tempted to try some homebrew sealant prior to this weekend, but was afraid to try something new right before a race.

    I wish I'd done it now.....I suffered five flats during the 12 hour race which obviously cost me a considerable amount of time and several positions. I was riding very well , but every time I'd get ahead a bit I'd suffer the Wrath of the Flat Gods.

    Two people at the race saw my predicament and commented. One guy said "Bummer dude, you just can't seem to make any progress", and the other one said "Don't you know that nobody uses tubes any more??"

    I am going to get some latex and slime TODAY. I've had enough of this s***.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeamTwentyFour
    I wish I'd done it now.....I suffered five flats during the 12 hour race which obviously cost me a considerable amount of time and several positions. I was riding very well , but every time I'd get ahead a bit I'd suffer the Wrath of the Flat Gods.
    TeamTwentyFour, I ran Python Airlights on taped Velocity rims with homebrew sealant at Razorback (I was plate #24) and not a single issue over 9hrs of riding (and I rode the technical stuff as hard as I could). For reference, my body weight is low 170's.

  6. #6
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    Gain experience with the system prior to the race...

    I've done the latex thing for year, so I thought it was no problem to air up a new set of Continental Twister Protection tires the week before last summer's Leadville 100. I was riding in 11th place and working on a sub-8 hour time when at about 65 miles I blew-out the rear on a flat gravel road section. The latex had eaten a hole in the tire and I was very glad to have a tube (and I booted the hole in the tire with a powerbar wrapper). I lost a dozen positions fixing the tire but clawed back some spots over the rest of the race. The moral of the story is to make sure you've got a lot of miles on the set-up you're going to use before the race -- and don't use Continental tires.

  7. #7
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    Ate through the tire, was that a homebrew latex mix, what was in the mix, that's crazy? I've used Stans and never had the goop eat my tires (yet), using either WTB Mutano's or Conti's but Explorers rather than Twister's.

    Over one year of riding I only had two failures. One was a piece of shale tha ripped open the sidewall of a Conti and that would've caused a flat either way and the other was because of running over a 16d nail. Destroyed the tire. Other than that couple burps that required a couple jolts of CO2, but no complete flats.

    Over all great experience with Stan's set up, although it is a pain and messy to switch out to new tires.

  8. #8
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    I've had an Explorer get eaten with Stan's. On a training ride, the rubber had separated from the carsass making the tire balloon to the side (barely clearing the fork leg). Thankfully it held until I got back to the car. FYI, that tire was ~4 months old. It's believed that the ammonia in the latex (homebrew or Stan's) eats the natural rubber which Conti uses. Take a careful look inside your tire, if you can see white threads of the carcass instead of smooth black rubber, the tire is on borrowed time.

    With sealant, definitely stay away from Conti tires, and tires with small beads (Michelin Comp S lite). IMO, pressures over 40psi are also not recommended.

  9. #9
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    No kidding, I'll have to take a closer look.

    Quote Originally Posted by fritZman
    I've had an Explorer get eaten with Stan's. On a training ride, the rubber had separated from the carsass making the tire balloon to the side (barely clearing the fork leg). Thankfully it held until I got back to the car. FYI, that tire was ~4 months old. It's believed that the ammonia in the latex (homebrew or Stan's) eats the natural rubber which Conti uses. Take a careful look inside your tire, if you can see white threads of the carcass instead of smooth black rubber, the tire is on borrowed time.

    With sealant, definitely stay away from Conti tires, and tires with small beads (Michelin Comp S lite). IMO, pressures over 40psi are also not recommended.

    Thanks for the heads up.

  10. #10
    umm...yea
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    Interesting info.

    It is for unknown reasons like these that I was afraid to try something new right before the race. I did'nt want to try out anything without first putting it through some considerable test time.

    I used to use Conti tires, which I know use natural rubber compounds, but nowadays I use Maxxis tires.

    Thanks for the info!

  11. #11
    umm...yea
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    Hey fritZman, how'd ya do?

    Quote Originally Posted by fritZman
    TeamTwentyFour, I ran Python Airlights on taped Velocity rims with homebrew sealant at Razorback (I was plate #24) and not a single issue over 9hrs of riding (and I rode the technical stuff as hard as I could). For reference, my body weight is low 170's.
    How'd ya end up at the 12 hour? How many laps? I have no idea how I did, but I'm pretty sure I completed 12 laps I was one of the last riders to cross the finish line and I fell asleep within minutes after that....I slept right through the awards ceremony! By the time I woke up the organizer had taken everything down including the results, so I am anxiously waiting for them to put the info up on their web site. I'm sure that will take several days with so many participants there.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeamTwentyFour
    How'd ya end up at the 12 hour? How many laps? I have no idea how I did, but I'm pretty sure I completed 12 laps I was one of the last riders to cross the finish line and I fell asleep within minutes after that....I slept right through the awards ceremony! By the time I woke up the organizer had taken everything down including the results, so I am anxiously waiting for them to put the info up on their web site. I'm sure that will take several days with so many participants there.
    Good job, 12 laps is a damn good effort. Top 10 for sure. What plate # were you?

    Unfortunately, my back and wrists were *killing* me towards the end. It got to the point that I couldn't hang onto the handlebars safely (I had a couple near misses on the last lap) so I retired with a little over 3 hrs to go. I had completed 10 laps, and from what I was told I was on the lead lap in 5th place some 30 minutes behind the leaders.

    Great course though, and awesome weather for riding eh?

  13. #13
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    Old Conti's worked, newer models are not to be trusted...

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger___
    Ate through the tire, was that a homebrew latex mix, what was in the mix, that's crazy? I've used Stans and never had the goop eat my tires (yet), using either WTB Mutano's or Conti's but Explorers rather than Twister's.
    I used Stan's with Conti Explorers and Twisters previously with great success, but apparently they moved production to Tiawan or somewhere and something changed that made the tires susceptible to failures with the latex system. I'm switching to Schwalbe Racing Ralphs for this season, but will wait to air them up with Stan's system until blizzard season is over...

  14. #14
    umm...yea
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    Yea, it was awesome out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by fritZman
    Good job, 12 laps is a damn good effort. Top 10 for sure. What plate # were you?

    Unfortunately, my back and wrists were *killing* me towards the end. It got to the point that I couldn't hang onto the handlebars safely (I had a couple near misses on the last lap) so I retired with a little over 3 hrs to go. I had completed 10 laps, and from what I was told I was on the lead lap in 5th place some 30 minutes behind the leaders.

    Great course though, and awesome weather for riding eh?
    I was rider #98. Sounds like you were kicking butt! Sorry you had to withdraw That course does have some sections that can sure beat a rider up. I was really looking for at least a top 5 and beleive I would have attained that if I didnt have so many D@#% flats! Dude I was seriously getting pissed off! Oh well....guess I'm venting here.

    All in all I still had a really great time. Kudos to GoneRiding for another great event.

    Where ya from? I'm sorta local (less then 2hrs away from the course)
    Last edited by TeamTwentyFour; 03-01-2004 at 11:45 AM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeamTwentyFour
    I was rider #98. Sounds like you were kicking butt! Sorry you had to withdraw That course does have some sections that can sure beat a rider up. I was really looking for at least a top 5 and beleive I would have attained that if I didnt have so many D@#% flats! Dude I was seriously getting pissed off! Oh well....guess I'm venting here.

    All in all I still had a really great time. Kudos to GoneRiding fo another great event.

    Where ya from? I'm sorta local (less then 2hrs away from the course)

    I sympathize, I saw a lot of riders fixing flats. Trust me, take the time to setup properly with tubeless and you'll love it. Flat resistance is only one benefit. IMO, I find the traction and increased rolling speed even better benefits.

    For me, the hardest part of Razorback was when you weren't in the technical sections, you were hammering through some fast bermed sections which forced you to maintain the same grip near the brake levers. There were very few places during the lap which I could shift my hand position to ease the strain on my wrists.

    I'm from Canada, and was down visiting the folks in Ft Myers. Although I don't typically do races over 6hrs, I thought it would be a nice opportunity to ride some of the best in Florida. I must say it was worth the effort.

  16. #16
    umm...yea
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    Good job! Let me welcome you (late) to the Sunshine State!

    Quote Originally Posted by fritZman
    I sympathize, I saw a lot of riders fixing flats. Trust me, take the time to setup properly with tubeless and you'll love it. Flat resistance is only one benefit. IMO, I find the traction and increased rolling speed even better benefits.

    For me, the hardest part of Razorback was when you weren't in the technical sections, you were hammering through some fast bermed sections which forced you to maintain the same grip near the brake levers. There were very few places during the lap which I could shift my hand position to ease the strain on my wrists.

    I'm from Canada, and was down visiting the folks in Ft Myers. Although I don't typically do races over 6hrs, I thought it would be a nice opportunity to ride some of the best in Florida. I must say it was worth the effort.
    (....although you would'nt know that last week with all the rain we had). But yes... the Reddick trail is among Florida's finest. There are other equally good ones as well, but most of them are situated in different parts of the state therefore involve a bit of driving.

    I'm looking forward to trying out my bike sans tubes. I plan to use non-UST tires simply for the lighter weight. Do you think I will have any issues using a sub 400g tire that has a fairly thin sidewall/ carcass?

    I found the most difficult part of the course to be one very short section about 40 feet long towards the end of the lap. It was after the final major climb....there was a short technical section of undulating terrain. That part definitely sapped me after making the previous climb 12 times.

  17. #17
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    John,

    I have some stuff I use, send me an email and I'll give you the recepie... Do not use those thin wall tires with a Stans set up- especially for 24 hour stuff. Use a 400-500g tire and some liquid latex. You'll be good to go, and about a pound lighter...

    Andy

  18. #18
    umm...yea
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    Good job! Tubeless

    I've been trying some "homebrew" sealant in my tires for the last few days (I'm running some used non UST tires on UST wheels. I "patched" a small hole in one of the tires with duct tape, whish seems to hold pretty good so far.).

    So far they are holding air very well with no noticeable loss in pressure.

    I can't really tell any difference in ride feel or rolling resistance like a lot of people claim.

    If the flat resistance is there, then it will be well worth it.

  19. #19
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    It will seal up to about a 1/4" or so. Much bigger than that and your out of luck. Last year at Ducktown I flatted and didnt even know it. I realized I had when I was in Durango the following weekend at Nationals. I flatted at 40mph coming down the face of the mtn out there- the sealant sealed, but not all the way. I then realized (while walking down the mtn to the staging area) that there was not/had not been enough sealant in there. Moral of the story is check it frequently, as the stuff will evaporate.

    We're hitting Reddick tomorrow if youre interested in going. Leaving Marcus's at 8:30 a.m. for 3 hours of riding up there.

    Take it easy,
    Andy

    PS. That was the only flat I had last year...

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeamTwentyFour
    ... I can't really tell any difference in ride feel or rolling resistance like a lot of people claim...
    What pressure are you running? I'd dial it right back from typical tubed setup. I was 174 lbs at Reddick (yes, lots of winter fat still), and I was running 32 psi front and 35 psi rear on Python Airlights. Lower pressure will conform better to the terrain actually reducing the rolling resistance.

  21. #21
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    Carry a tube, etc. Stans is not guarantee you won't get a flat, and you'll be lucky to find somebody compassionate to loan you a tube, especially if you tell them you never brought one out with you with you in the first place (I know I wouldn't).

    As for Stans, all you need is the sealant. Just pour two scoops in per tire, spin, and you're done.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    Carry a tube, etc. Stans is not guarantee you won't get a flat, and you'll be lucky to find somebody compassionate to loan you a tube, especially if you tell them you never brought one out with you with you in the first place (I know I wouldn't).

    As for Stans, all you need is the sealant. Just pour two scoops in per tire, spin, and you're done.
    I picked up 5 stickers/thorns on a ride in Feb. These were new Panaracer tubless tires. After two unsuccessful atempts to patch the tires I added Stan's Tubless to the wheels and haven't needed to add air since. Stan's fixed my hole problem and apparently prevents punctures as well. (knock wood)

  23. #23
    Obviously Single
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    New question here. I might take the plunge ...

    I don't normally peruse this forum, so please forgive my ignorance.

    I had a set of UST tires, but I had no end of problems with them. (Sorry, I don't
    remember the brand, but one couldn't hold air, even when new!)

    I also didn't like the idea that I'd still have to cary tubes and CO2/pump, but it'd take twice as long to fix a flat.

    Long story short, you guys know that isn't such a problem any more (though remotely
    possible).

    I'm spec-ing a new bike, and I think I'll get Mavic or Bontrage UST rims.

    So let me get this straight. I can use:
    * UST rim
    * UST tires
    * Stans (some sort of liquid that seals the insides of the tire but is messy)
    * run lower pressure
    * carry a spare tube (or 2 :-)) just in case

    Right now I use one of several light tires (like the Mich Wild Gripper Comp) and light
    weight tubes, but I have to run 50+ lbs of pressure to make it work. That's fine, as
    my suspension makes up for it, except on corners. I just can't rail the corners the
    way my UST friends can (because of my high air pressure).

    An one other thing: is it true that the claim is that you get *better* rolling resistance
    with lower pressure? I don't grok that, at least on the road (which much of my
    training is on). Where does that info come from?

    Thanks guys!
    The Lee-Man

    A witty saying proves nothing. -- Voltaire

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