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  1. #1
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    Kokopelli trail race

    Are any of you thinking of racing/riding the Kokopelli Trail Race this year?

    Also, any female finishers of the KTR yet?

    Thanks,

    B
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    I'd like to know if there have been any female finishers too. I'm thinking about doing it in the spring. Anybody know?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by fairyweatherider
    I'd like to know if there have been any female finishers too. I'm thinking about doing it in the spring. Anybody know?
    I did it last year and there was one female there but I'm pretty sure she didn't finish. I think she was the first to try, but I definitely may be wrong!

    Has the race even been announced by Mike?

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    I'm interested in doing it.

    I was going to send MC a note to find out whether it was going to happen and what the logistics would be. I think someone on MTBR has an Endurance Race web site that includes info on it. I saw it a few days ago. I will look.

    *edit* here is that link I referred to: 2006 Calendar shaping up at Ride424.com and here is the Endurance link: http://www.ride424.com/calendar.php

    Keep scrolling down to May 2006, it's there The contact info is in the Journals link.
    Last edited by edemtbs; 10-31-2005 at 02:38 PM. Reason: link

  5. #5
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    Koko is a fantastic race. The self supported element adds another dimension to the event for sure. I believe MC has already announced it on the ride424.com calendar. It can be viewed at www.ride424.com/calendar.php

    I had asked about a women's record last year, and no one could give an answer. I gave it a go last year and made it to Rabbit Valley when my body got all wierd with low electrolytes and such. I decided to bail at the Interstate, and vowed to come back in 2006. Hell, maybe even do it twice for good measure....it's such a great trail.........have fun if you go!

    erika v.

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    I read about it in the Mountain Flyer magazine

    Quote Originally Posted by EVM
    Koko is a fantastic race.
    It does sound like a very cool race and low key, nice. Good luck next year EVM.

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    Geez you guys--it's still 7.5 months away...

    Don't you have snowboards to wax...

    ..or somethin'...?!

    I did announce it on the ride424 website. I'm working on a website for the Koko, Grand Loop, and GDR races. Probably not before 1/1/06, but hopefully by then.

    Many women have ridden the Kokopelli route, but as yet none have completed the race. There have been rumors of women completing the route in a day, but none confirmed.
    At least one woman will finish the race in '06. How do I know? Sheer numbers. If even half of the women that have contacted me about the event show up, at least one of them will finish. I'm betting that EVM will be one of them, but I'll also bet that she has company.

    An even better question is, how many (men or women) will attempt the Grand Loop, and what percentage will finish? My guess is 9 starters and 2 finishers. Is it really that hard? Actually, it's WAY harder...

    MC

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Geez you guys--it's still 7.5 months away...

    Don't you have snowboards to wax...

    ..or somethin'...?!

    I did announce it on the ride424 website. I'm working on a website for the Koko, Grand Loop, and GDR races. Probably not before 1/1/06, but hopefully by then.

    Many women have ridden the Kokopelli route, but as yet none have completed the race. There have been rumors of women completing the route in a day, but none confirmed.
    At least one woman will finish the race in '06. How do I know? Sheer numbers. If even half of the women that have contacted me about the event show up, at least one of them will finish. I'm betting that EVM will be one of them, but I'll also bet that she has company.

    An even better question is, how many (men or women) will attempt the Grand Loop, and what percentage will finish? My guess is 9 starters and 2 finishers. Is it really that hard? Actually, it's WAY harder...

    MC
    Where's the grand loop take place?

    You'll be happy to hear the Cinnamon raisin peanut butter now comes in a plastic jar so perhaps shipping won't be such a hassle. I'm averaging a jar a week...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    Where's the grand loop take place?
    The Grand Loop starts at Loma, follows the Kokopelli to the high point of the La Sals, then turns south onto the Paradox Trail. Follow that through the la Sals, descend into and across the Paradox Valley and then climb all day to top out at 10k on the Uncompahgre Plateau. Which is where you turn left onto the Tabeguache Trail, which you follow for the next 115+ miles back to GJ. Total distance is ~340 miles. Total climbing 45,000'+.

    More here:
    http://mtbike.mountainzone.com/2001/...oop_index.html
    http://www.zipp.com/athletes/adventu...ctations.shtml
    http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/PR-060203.asp

    That should give you an idea, at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    You'll be happy to hear the Cinnamon raisin peanut butter now comes in a plastic jar so perhaps shipping won't be such a hassle. I'm averaging a jar a week...
    Ba$tard! Hit me when I'm weak, why dontcha?? I ran out last week... Soon as I get my PayPal balance back in the black I'll be callin' on ya...

    MC

  10. #10
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    I am DEFINITELY

    psyched on doing the race.

    The self-support element makes it that more enticing.

    I got Walt to build up a frame. And I'm going to have Mike C build up the wheels (you'll get that email in a month, Mike)

    I just hope once they take out the Ti hardware out of my leg (long story), the bones will fill in by race day.

    And if not, I can at least shoot for the title of "The Guy Who Finished the Race with a Drilled-out Tibia"

  11. #11
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    By the way...

    I need to scout that area and the KTR course. I am familiar with Fruita/Loma/Mack/Rabbit Valley but beyond that I'm pretty much clueless. So I'll need to be scouting and will probably do some now through when it snows too much.

    Anyone that wants to join send a PM.

    As for the Grand Loop, well, one step at a time for me. Never letting us rest on our laurels are you MC?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by edemtbs
    I need to scout that area and the KTR course. I am familiar with Fruita/Loma/Mack/Rabbit Valley but beyond that I'm pretty much clueless. So I'll need to be scouting and will probably do some now through when it snows too much.
    From Rabbit Valley all the way to Dewey can be ridden pretty much all winter. There may be a day or two (right after a storm) where it's goopy, but I rode all of it many times last winter--including Jan and Feb. Even much of the climb up from Dewey, as well as between Slickrock and Porc Rim (and maybe a bit beyond, but not much). Really, the only places that aren't rideable year-round on the trail are the higher elevations in the La Sals.

    Quote Originally Posted by edemtbs
    As for the Grand Loop, well, one step at a time for me. Never letting us rest on our laurels are you MC?
    Wouldn't want to disappoint you...

    MC

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Geez you guys--it's still 7.5 months away...

    Don't you have snowboards to wax...

    ..or somethin'...?!


    MC
    But it'll take that long for me to get fit enough to try it!

    And snow......what's that?

    B
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  14. #14
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    there with bells on.

    My wife & I will be there. We're hoping to get into more and more endurance racing this year and the koko sounds like a lot of fun. We rode it with BOB's this June and loved every mile of it.
    I own and work at Hub Cyclery, Idyllwild CA

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Many women have ridden the Kokopelli route, but as yet none have completed the race. There have been rumors of women completing the route in a day, but none confirmed.
    Emily Loman did Kokopelli in a day in 2003. Trip report at http://www.climbingdreams.net/life/2003/kokopelli/

    bock

  16. #16
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    Very Nice!! Good to see someone step up to verify the rumors.

    Remember the "KT Race" itself is unsupported.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    psyched on doing the race.
    The self-support element makes it that more enticing.
    I got Walt to build up a frame. And I'm going to have Mike C build up the wheels (you'll get that email in a month, Mike)
    Glad you're thinking about racing. Heal well and the race should take care of itself.

    I'll be expecting the "wheel email"...

    MC

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bock
    Emily Loman did Kokopelli in a day in 2003. Trip report at http://www.climbingdreams.net/life/2003/kokopelli/

    bock
    Thanks for the update, and for confirming what we suspected was true.

    For anyone that's reading this, but hasn't read the link above, it looks like the female course record is ~24hrs. It needs to be noted that that was with support.

    Please let Emily know that she's invited to race with the rest of us this spring.

    Cheers,

    MC

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Thanks for the update, and for confirming what we suspected was true.

    For anyone that's reading this, but hasn't read the link above, it looks like the female course record is ~24hrs. It needs to be noted that that was with support.

    Please let Emily know that she's invited to race with the rest of us this spring.

    Cheers,

    MC
    Mike-

    Out of curiosity....what's the geared record?

    B
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  20. #20
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    Kokopelli Records

    Quote Originally Posted by donkey
    Mike-
    Out of curiosity....what's the geared record?
    B
    The records stand at:
    Geared: 14 hours 17 minutes (Mike Curiak, 2004)
    Single speed: 14 hours, 43 minutes (Jon Brown, 2005)

    To the best of my knowledge, no woman has finished it in a day and self supported. So the first women to finish this year (geared and single) will be the official KTR course record holders.

    And while I'm sure we're not far off from having a fixed gear rider and a cx-bike finisher, we're going to limit the record keeping to geared and single.

    Curious side note about the records: In 2003 the record was set at 16 hours. Up to that point it had never been done faster than 19 hours. But why? A big part of it is that no one had really ever tried to go fast, but even bigger was that the ~5 years previous to that saw very dry winter/spring seasons, and so the sand was very deep and really slowed us down. the past three years' races have seen very wet (relatively) conditions in the weeks leading up, which has allowed racers to go much faster because of minimal walking. What we get next year is anyone guess right now, but be warned--the drought will return and when it does we won't be breaking 15 hours...

    MC

  21. #21
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    Kokopelli in a Day

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    For anyone that's reading this, but hasn't read the link above, it looks like the female course record is ~24hrs. It needs to be noted that that was with support.

    Please let Emily know that she's invited to race with the rest of us this spring.
    Just found this thread. Still fairly new to the MTBR scene. Thanks for posting my Kokopelli trip report, Bock! We had never even heard of the "official KTR" when we did the ride in 2003. Pretty cool to find out that Emily may be the first woman to have ridden it in a day. She's also the youngest (man or woman) *ever* to have finished the Hardrock 100 footrace. I think she's completed it 4 or 5 times by now. She's currently pregnant and unlikely to do the race next year though. However, I'd like to give it a shot. I think I could manage an 18-20 hour time. Sub-15 is friggin' incredible!

    I believe my friend Buzz rode the trail solo and unsupported in 1999 in around 15 hours, but he opted to skip the Yellowjacket loop. Peter Bakwin and Steph Ehret *ran* the trail in 32 hours last year! Holy Smokes!

    http://www.geocities.com/pbakwin/kokopelli.html

    Cheers,
    Stefan

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    Good job! Two In

    I'm In And I Know One Girl Who Will Be There.i Missed Last Year
    Due To Work But Not This Year!!!

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    Female record

    I read on the Adventure Sports Magazine that adventure racer Dannelle Ballangee rode Kokopelli in 24hrs - might check with her before you crown anyone.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mphart
    I read on the Adventure Sports Magazine that adventure racer Dannelle Ballangee rode Kokopelli in 24hrs - might check with her before you crown anyone.
    Geeesh! I wasn't "crowning" anyone - just thought it was cool that Emily *may* have been the first woman to do it in a day. I wouldn't be surprised a bit if Danelle has ridden it in a day. Or in well under 24 hours for that matter. There is no question that she could do it easily.

  25. #25
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    Quote from AS

    From Adventure Sports Magazine:

    One of the beauties of the Kokopelli is that there is no one way to ride it. Some go Fruita to Moab, others Moab to Fruita. A three-day voyage with some type of caching or support vehicle is the standard for advanced riders, while most tour operators run a fairly leisurely five-day trek. Adventure racing’s reigning queen, Danelle Ballangee, has ticked it off in just over 24 hours as a training ride. It has been completed in three days, unsupported, on single-speed bikes. And endurance god Mike Curiak hammered it in 16 hours last May in the Kokopelli Mountain Bike Race. No matter, the Kokopelli is more than just a long ride. It’s far harder than it seems, but over and over on the trail you lose yourself in the landscape.

    Read the full article here.

    When I rode it with Emily, we rode from Fruita to Moab.

  26. #26
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    What exactly does unsupported mean? Can you cache stuff on the route to pick up or have to have everything with you on the start line?

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    That's a great question

    and one that I've been wondering myself.

    Perhaps it will be a good idea to get a general agreement on what is and what is not allowed...?

    Personally, I interpret the rules to mean:

    NO outside food/water support.

    NO outside mech support.

    NO outside medical support.

    NO pre-planned pacelines.

    Of course, if I come across someone who needed mechanical or medical help, I will do what I can - which includes calling for paramedics. I still haven't done my pre-rides, so I need to check if I get phone reception out there. And there's always walkie-talkies...

    What makes this race so appealing to me is the fact that not only do you have to be a strong rider, you also have to be self-reliant.
    Last edited by 514Climber; 11-26-2005 at 11:50 AM.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by fairyweatherider
    What exactly does unsupported mean? Can you cache stuff on the route to pick up or have to have everything with you on the start line?
    No caches, no drops, no sag vehicles. Carry all that you need or do without.

    The one exception is water--if you find it (in streams, creeks, rivers) you can filter or treat it and take it with you. You can also plan to ride off-course to get water (Westwater Ranger Station) or food (Cisco store if it's open) but both of those options will cost you time if you're trying to go fast.

    The guiding principal is to be self-supported. As in NO outside assistance. That means you need to be prepared for all conditions you'll get out there, from 25 degrees in the wee hours to 100+ in the afternoon. You need to have food and light to get you through from start to finish, however long that may take. One racer took 24+ hours to finish last year, and there might have been more that finished if they had been better prepared.

    And (here's the important part) while there are other people out there riding, 4-wheeling, camping, etc... the spirit of the race is to not lean on these people for assistance unless you're in a bad situation that can't be solved on your own. That means a broken leg or a broken frame. Just because you decided to skip filtering water at the last creek does not mean that someone else should come to rescue your dehydrated carcass. If you bring a CO2 inflator instead of a pump, and it malfunctions or you run out of cartridges, don't ask someone else to save your ass. Start hoofing it and, as you walk, think about the error of your ways.

    I'm sure it seems to some people that this is excessively puritanical. Call it whatever you want. It is a race for adults that know what they're getting into and how to take care of themselves. If you don't agree or aren't into that, there are plenty of 24-hour and 100-mile events out there that will scratch your particular itch.

    Thanks,

    MC

  29. #29
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    It's settled then...

    Clear and concise rules - which, of course, reduce the potential for any misinterpretation.

    A race like the KTR should exist...Not to feed egos, and certainly not to say one form of racing is better than another.

    It should just exist...

    I'll see you all next spring!
    Last edited by 514Climber; 11-26-2005 at 01:55 PM. Reason: grammar

  30. #30
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    I think you may be seeing me there too

  31. #31
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    Spirit of the ride.

    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    Clear and concise rules - which, of course, reduce the potential for any misinterpretation.

    A race like the KTR should exist...Not to feed egos, and certainly not to say one form of racing is better than another.

    It should just exist...

    I'll see you all next spring!
    I hope the spirit of the ride remains just as you describe it because that is what attracts me to it.

    I was there 2 weeks ago starting on the CO side to do some pre-riding. Day 1 I succumbed to Mary's Loop and rode every trail there in one shot. So much for expanding my horizons. Day 2 I finally broke away and rode the Kokopelli proper from Mack to Westwater and back. I succumbed again though and rode the Westwater singletrack that parallels the official KT route. Oh well Got back to the car in the pitch dark.

    I was going to go out again this weekend to continue pre-riding from Westwater and go further west but with the major change in the weather decided against it. The skis are calling to me.

    Not sure I've seen the official pronouncement on direction of the race this year. Since it went Moab to Fruita this year should we assume Fruita to Moab next year?

    Ed E
    Last edited by edemtbs; 11-26-2005 at 06:56 PM.

  32. #32
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    Sorry, but I just gotta know...

    Ok Mike, I'll bite: given great conditions (soil moisture, creeks to take water from, astral alignments & ect.) how fast could the Grand Loop be done?

    My wild guess is 55 hours.

    29erchico

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    Quote Originally Posted by 29erchico
    Ok Mike, I'll bite: given great conditions (soil moisture, creeks to take water from, astral alignments & ect.) how fast could the Grand Loop be done? My wild guess is 55 hours.
    I wish I knew what that answer was, because then I wouldn't have to go do it again to try to find out!

    Your guess of 55 hours might be possible in theory. I think if conditions were optimal and I was fit and didn't make any major mistakes I might be able to get close to 60. That's my goal anyway. But the route is so difficult, and the conditions so unpredictable, that you just pay your money (proverbially speaking) and take your chances, and if you happen to have it together enough to merely finish, you truly don't care about the time it took.

    Here's to a wet winter, and early spring, and cool temps the first week of June...

    MC

  34. #34
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    Just wanted to let everyone know that the Kokopelli Trail Race now has it's own webpage.

    All together now:

    AAAAAAWWWWWWWWWwwwwwwwwwwwww...

    Find it, and more KTR info, here:
    http://greatdividerace.com/_wsn/page4.html

    Cheers,

    MC

  35. #35
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    Excellent. Thanks.

    FYI - the "2006 Kokopelli Discussion" link on your KTR website errors.

  36. #36
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    I'd like to know how rough the trail actually is?

    I'm thinking about 2007, my physical condition this year, while greatly improved is NOT up to doing it this year! However, 07 remains possible! I'd like to know about the actual terrain! Is it more equipment stress, rider stress or both together?
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    Quote Originally Posted by stormcrowe
    I'd like to know about the actual terrain! Is it more equipment stress, rider stress or both together?
    It is 142 miles if you stay on course - 145 miles if you detour up to Westwater ranger station for a water refill. I'd say both together. Equipment stress depends greatly on the weather and rider stress depends on how smartly you have trained, fuel and pace on race day - and how bad you want it.

    All in all it's a big undertaking.

  38. #38
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    New question here.

    Quote Originally Posted by LyndaW
    It is 142 miles if you stay on course - 145 miles if you detour up to Westwater ranger station for a water refill. I'd say both together. Equipment stress depends greatly on the weather and rider stress depends on how smartly you have trained, fuel and pace on race day - and how bad you want it.

    All in all it's a big undertaking.
    Reason I was asking, I'm thinking about 2007. 2006 is NOT possible this year, due to lack of physical condition. As some background here:
    I've dropped 321 pounds since March this year. I've gone from a wheelchair to a mountainbike. I was on Oxygen at 10 liters/minute, due to pulmonary problems associated with my weight. I blew up due to a pituitary disorder and had bariatric surgery, and have made MAJOR inroads into my health problems, and have gotten to the point where I can ride 30-60 miles at a 15-18 mph pace on a mountainbike with an average of 500 foot fluctuations in terrain up and down. I am now off the oxygen and maintaining 97% saturation and not dropping below 85% even under stress while riding hills. Best I can do here in Indiana! Am I nuts to be thinking about this? Any advice to prepare for this event will be greatly appreciated! I think I can do this and that's half the battle! The other half is preparation! I can tell you this much, I WANT THIS SO BAD I CAN TASTE IT! I don't care if I place high, I only care if I finish it! Of course finishing in front would be nice though!
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    Wow! you've made amazing progress. I bet you feel like a million bucks. Good for you. With that attitude and progression KTR may be in your 2007 plan but you need to keep working up to it in baby steps.

    I'd recommend doing a few long distance events that have options to bail out and have lots of support to test yourself before trying KTR. In 2006 try out a solo 6-hour then solo 12-hour race on a lapped course where you can do fewer laps and have a support crew check on you every hour. Then move onto a 100 miler with less support. Those are the steps to take enroute to a KTR finish.

  40. #40
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    Good job! Cool, you just described my gameplan to a T!

    Quote Originally Posted by LyndaW
    Wow! you've made amazing progress. I bet you feel like a million bucks. Good for you. With that attitude and progression KTR may be in your 2007 plan but you need to keep working up to it in baby steps.

    I'd recommend doing a few long distance events that have options to bail out and have lots of support to test yourself before trying KTR. In 2006 try out a solo 6-hour then solo 12-hour race on a lapped course where you can do fewer laps and have a support crew check on you every hour. Then move onto a 100 miler with less support. Those are the steps to take enroute to a KTR finish.
    Thanks for the Kudos, Lynda! Yeah, that is my general gameplan, along with 2 long tours, a 256 miler over Spring Break(I'm an overage College student) and a ride to Key West from central Indiana over summer break. I'll be competing in the 12 hrs of DINO in October, and plan to ride the Huntington County 140 on/off road 2 day as well in September. I'm currently able to hold HR in the 180's with no discomfort as well! Not bad for a fat 45 year old! By the way, I don't feel like a million bucks, you're a bit short! I feel like $10,000.00 compared to where I was a year ago! Maybe I'll see ya there! Keep spinnin!
    [SIZE=4]Feel free to visit my blog: http://theamazingshrinkingman.blogspot.com
    [COLOR=Red][FONT=Trebuchet MS] I'm also doing Tour de Cure in July, my page:
    http://main.diabetes.org/site/TR?pg=...373&px=3127592

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    Trail Condition

    Has anyone been on the section at the end lately, down by Loma? It was really washed out and rutted (like 2' deep ruts) 2 years ago...which is the only time I have done it. Awesome ride otherwise.

    Also, has anyone ever done this ride on a tandem?

    Thanks,

    Wade

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    i've thought about it, and i've thought about it, and i'm in. i want to race the kokopelli this year. anything i need to do to get in? i had your email earlier mike, then i lost it. how many do you expect this year? there seems to be alot of interest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrwmojo
    i've thought about it, and i've thought about it, and i'm in. i want to race the kokopelli this year. anything i need to do to get in? i had your email earlier mike, then i lost it. how many do you expect this year? there seems to be alot of interest.
    People are coming out of the woodwork with questions and "commitments". How many? Won't know until race day.

    All you need to do is show up at the pre-race meeting, then at the race start line. No entry fee, no registration.

    See ya there.

    MC

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    Quote Originally Posted by wadejr
    Has anyone been on the section at the end lately, down by Loma? It was really washed out and rutted (like 2' deep ruts) 2 years ago...which is the only time I have done it. Awesome ride otherwise.

    Also, has anyone ever done this ride on a tandem?

    Thanks,

    Wade
    Some of the descent from the Rabbit Valley overlook to Salt Creek is as you describe--deep ruts. Combined with steep trail and very little use, it's a safe bet that it's not going to repair itself before the race. That means be prepared to dismount and walk unless you are an A+ tech rider and on top of your game after 130+ miles in the saddle.

    No idea on the tandem ?.

    Anyone?

    MC

  45. #45
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    Ruts...

    I was there in early/mid November and it was the same as in years past. Like MC said, don't expect it to change by race day.

    Ed E

    Quote Originally Posted by wadejr
    Has anyone been on the section at the end lately, down by Loma? It was really washed out and rutted (like 2' deep ruts) 2 years ago...which is the only time I have done it. Awesome ride otherwise.

    Also, has anyone ever done this ride on a tandem?

    Thanks,

    Wade

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    A Logistic Question

    How do you fellow racers plan to return to Moab?

    I plan on parking in Moab - which means I'll need a shuttle back from Fruita.

    Is there a shuttle service in Fruita that will give the racers a ride back? If so, how much will it cost?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    How do you fellow racers plan to return to Moab?

    I plan on parking in Moab - which means I'll need a shuttle back from Fruita.

    Is there a shuttle service in Fruita that will give the racers a ride back? If so, how much will it cost?
    We usually just find a group with similar schedules, and do the car shuttle beforehand so that when you hit the finish your car is there.

    Chris Kostman browbeat me into agreeing to ride from GJ back to Moab (the day after the race) last year. But then he didn't show up...

    I don't know of a shuttle service--maybe just wait until the date gets closer and then we can start to match people up with rides.

    MC

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    Thanks

    I'll definitely have to get in the loop for that shuttle service. As race day approaches let's all do our best to coordinate a viable schedule.

    I am more than happy to kick in $$$ for gas.

    Peace and happy training everyone.

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    I'm considering this race. Not sure if it's going to work out with my work schedule yet. I have a boatload of questions but I won't ask them all at once. First off, tires. I run a GF 29'er. I was thinking of trying Maxxis Ignitors and running them tubeless with Stans. Is this a good tire choice for the Kokopelli Trail? I have run Stans in my 26 inch tires with good results. Although Stans doesn't recommend any folding tires with a 29 conversion, it sounds like many have had good luck running the Maxxis Ignitors. Any thoughts!!!

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by 71 10-7
    I'm considering this race. Not sure if it's going to work out with my work schedule yet. I have a boatload of questions but I won't ask them all at once. First off, tires. I run a GF 29'er. I was thinking of trying Maxxis Ignitors and running them tubeless with Stans. Is this a good tire choice for the Kokopelli Trail? I have run Stans in my 26 inch tires with good results. Although Stans doesn't recommend any folding tires with a 29 conversion, it sounds like many have had good luck running the Maxxis Ignitors. Any thoughts!!!
    i used the same tires front and rear for it last year and would have no reason to consider using any other tire. they worked perfectly fine. I used tubes though. Zero flats.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    i used the same tires front and rear for it last year and would have no reason to consider using any other tire. they worked perfectly fine. I used tubes though. Zero flats.
    Thanks Spookykinkajou,

    I may also run tubes, we'll see. What the volume on the Maxxis like? I have stock Bontrager XR's (2.25 front/2.2 rear). They're nice and big. I checked with Shiggy's site but didn't find the 29er Maxxis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 71 10-7
    I may also run tubes, we'll see. What the volume on the Maxxis like? I have stock Bontrager XR's (2.25 front/2.2 rear). They're nice and big. I checked with Shiggy's site but didn't find the 29er Maxxis.
    I'd echo what SKJ said and add in that the course has so much variety that it's hard to choose a bad tire. There are large amounts of hardpack, ledges, pavement (well, chip seal), and sand, and nothing is going to be ideal on all of it. I think the best tire for this course is the one that you're most comfortable with. If in doubt, err on the side of larger volume--your joints will thank you in the days following the race.

    To specifically address your Maxxis/Bontrager tire question, the Maxxis has slightly less volume than the Bontrager.

    MC

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    Thanks for the info MC. I just ordered a map online from the BLM and I'm hoping this will give me a better idea about what I may be getting myself into. I've never rode this trail and most likely will not be able to pre-ride any of it (I'm from MN). I'm sure I'll have more questions in the coming weeks/months. To the trainer

  54. #54
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    Are GPs systems allowed during the race?
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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    Are GPs systems allowed during the race?
    Yep. No silly, senseless rules here (You must carry a baton, you must sign in after each lap, pee only in designated areas) etc.... Carry whatever you think you need, and nothing you don't. Ride the course exclusively under your own power, and accept no outside help. That's pretty much it.

    MC

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Yep. No silly, senseless rules here (You must carry a baton, you must sign in after each lap, pee only in designated areas) etc.... Carry whatever you think you need, and nothing you don't. Ride the course exclusively under your own power, and accept no outside help. That's pretty much it.

    MC



    I am looking forward to this race.
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  57. #57
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    Trail markings

    I am in for the KTR this year. A couple of flatlanders from Michigan are coming out to race. So the question is:

    What kind of trail markings are on the KTR? Color, frequency, etc....

    I have all the maps, only one mentions that trail markers are at the intersections.

    Answers would be appreciated.

    ---Chad

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjsbike
    I am in for the KTR this year. A couple of flatlanders from Michigan are coming out to race. So the question is: What kind of trail markings are on the KTR? Color, frequency, etc....
    I have all the maps, only one mentions that trail markers are at the intersections.
    ---Chad
    Chad-

    Most of the markings are BLM standard brown carsonite. They look like this:



    ...except that they are brown, and have little Kokopelli emblems on them. The ones on the Kokopelli are about 40" high by about 4" wide, and they'll also have a directional arrow on them (usually telling you to turn, but sometimes just telling you to keep on goin' straight).

    Frequency? Good question. Not every turn is marked, but most of them are. For most of the route, although there are many divergent trails, the Kokopelli is the main travel route. Meaning that most traffic is going the same way as you, and the condition of the trail makes this obvious. You will rarely (only once that I can think of) turn off onto a lesser used trail, so simply paying attention to the level of use of each trail (at intersections where there is no marking) will tell you all you need to know 95% of the time.

    And the other 5%? That's why you carry the map and COPMOBA pamphlet--just in case.

    If you keep your head up and pay attention, route finding will not be a problem. If you start to bonk and get lazy, and find yourself staring at your front tire for any length of time, WAKE UP! Then stop and determine if you're still on the right trail.

    Let me know if you need clarification.

    MC

  59. #59
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    Trail Markers

    Chad,

    I thought I might add a few things to Mike's comments above.

    The markers are quite frequent, although probably not every mile, as I've seen them described. I found that it's easy to miss them going downhill. You might want to keep a closer eye while descending if you haven't been on the trail before.

    I agree with Mike that the most travelled (main) route is usually the best way to go. I can think of at least three places where that's not the case though (at least to my instincts), and I'm (somewhat) familiar with the route. There might be a few more places that aren't obvious to someone not familiar with the area. Again, keep a close eye for those brown kokopelli posts, and be ready to turn around if you aren't seeing them anymore.

    It sounds like you've got a good selection of maps. I'm sure you have the Latitude 40 Grand Junction map. I'd also recommend the Latitude 40 Moab East map if you don't have it. It covers the first half of the trail really well.

    Good luck in May!

    Fred

  60. #60
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    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Chad-

    Most of the markings are BLM standard brown carsonite. They look like this:



    ...except that they are brown, and have little Kokopelli emblems on them. The ones on the Kokopelli are about 40" high by about 4" wide, and they'll also have a directional arrow on them (usually telling you to turn, but sometimes just telling you to keep on goin' straight).

    Frequency? Good question. Not every turn is marked, but most of them are. For most of the route, although there are many divergent trails, the Kokopelli is the main travel route. Meaning that most traffic is going the same way as you, and the condition of the trail makes this obvious. You will rarely (only once that I can think of) turn off onto a lesser used trail, so simply paying attention to the level of use of each trail (at intersections where there is no marking) will tell you all you need to know 95% of the time.

    And the other 5%? That's why you carry the map and COPMOBA pamphlet--just in case.

    If you keep your head up and pay attention, route finding will not be a problem. If you start to bonk and get lazy, and find yourself staring at your front tire for any length of time, WAKE UP! Then stop and determine if you're still on the right trail.

    Let me know if you need clarification.

    MC
    Mike and Fred,

    Thanks for the answers. The trail is well marked, from the descriptions given to me.

    See all of you in May. I will be the tall, skinny guy riding the red/silver GF Sugar 29er.

    ----Chad

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    Looks like fun...

    ...in a sick sort of way. Count me in!
    Dave

    Anything is possible. The impossible just takes longer.

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    Paging MC

    Quote: "That's why you carry the map and COPMOBA pamphlet--just in case."

    Will I be able to pick up a COPMOBA pamphet or maps the Friday before the race in GJ/Fruita/Loma? Any chance this material or similar will be at the pre-race meeting? I've twice requested the BLM map but havn't received it yet!!! Thank's in advance for any info.

    Dave

  63. #63
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    I just came across this. It was published last month, so I expect it is up to date. anyone already have a copy of it?

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...15987231464000
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  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    I just came across this. It was published last month, so I expect it is up to date. anyone already have a copy of it?

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...15987231464000

    Even though I've never seen it, I have to believe it's far better than anything else available. Whomever is the first to order it, read through it and let us know what you think.

    Thanks,

    MC

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by 71 10-7
    Will I be able to pick up a COPMOBA pamphet or maps the Friday before the race in GJ/Fruita/Loma? Any chance this material or similar will be at the pre-race meeting? I've twice requested the BLM map but havn't received it yet!!! Thank's in advance for any info.Dave
    Don't bank on it. Check out the Amazon.com link below...

    MC

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    New Kokopelli Guidebook

    Hi all, I was just alerted to this forum, someone said you were talking about me...

    I wrote the guidebook you've been referring to, just published it last month. It's starting to get some airtime thru forums like this & it's pretty flattering - thanks!

    So I read thru your thread & it sounds like you've got this race pretty well wired. I may be able to cast some light. My guidebook is based on about 5 years of running Bikerpelli, an annual Kokopelli trail trip. It's IMO the most accurate & thorough guide in existence. A few caveats for your purposes - the mile-by-mile is written from Loma to Moab, the opposite of your direction I think? It can be reversed but bits like "this is an easy turn to miss" don't necessarily apply going the other direction.

    There's another guide out there by Peggy Utesch, it's on Amazon, hers is written in the opposite direction and may be more applicable for you.

    For the most part you shouldn't need a guide to find the trail. What is invaluable I believe are the Latitude 40 maps - Fruita/GJ and Moab East. These detail 95% of the trail and can really save your butt. I wouldn't recommend riding the trail w/o them. Yes the trail is well marked but the signs can be missed or even vandalized, it usually happens to a few folks every year on our trips, and that's daylight travel. In reality if you carry the maps you probably won't break them iout but a few times, but those few times could save you hours or your life - definitely worth it.

    What I don't like about the Utesch guide (apart from the fact that it's 16 yrs old) is that it does very little to help you prepare for the trail. That's what I wanted to improve upon with mine & half the book deals with that alone. That part may be very helpful to you. Water spots, cache spots, landmarks, bailouts, endurance & tech expectations, gear, etc.

    All the same, the Bikerpelli site is loaded with good trail info that you may also find useful, that's free of course. If you opt to order my guide thru Bikerpelli you also get a copy of the COPMOBA map it sounds like you're having trouble finding. We've got the lat 40 maps too, as does your local shop probably.

    Best of luck to all of you taking on this challenge, it will take a rare determination - I admire that. If I can help please let me know.

    Alex.
    www.bikerpelli.com

  67. #67
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    Hey Alex thanks for the details. It appears that your 06 tour and the KTR might overlap in dates. Maybe we will see you out there on the trail. Oh, and if you find some half dead cyclist rummaging for food at your lunch stops you may know why
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  68. #68
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    I am almost “in” for this KTR. Just ordered Alex’s trail guide from Amazon, should have waited till I read his post.

    This would be a huge jump up from the other supported/daytime endurance events I have done, Leadville and Durango.

    I have ridden bits and pieces of the Kokopelli trail over the years and am generally familiar with the type of terrain and weather but there are two areas I have questions on and would appreciate anyone’s observations.

    First and foremost - Water strategies

    I have never ‘filtered’ water and was wondering about equipment choices and basic techniques? I intend to get a filtration unit and ‘practice’ on some up coming rides but would like to avoid as many beginners mistakes as possible.

    Locations to re-supply with filtered water
    • I am assuming there will be several creek crossings in the 1st half/La Sal section of the trail? (Start to Dewy Bridge) I read in the 2004 KTR results that Fisher Creek was used to filter water but my map shows at least two times we will cross Fisher, will both crossings generally have water flowing in May? Any other logical filter location crossings in the first half?
    • In the Second half of the trail (Dewy to Loma) it looks like we would have 2 locations to filter from the Colorado River with out actually leaving the trail, Dewy and Cisco Landing? Anyone ever filtered from the sandy Colorado River? Then there would be the Westwater River Ranger Station about 1.5 miles off course? BLM site says the water from the station is not always available but I would assume it probably would be in May, if not you could filter here as you would be down to the river?
    Any general comments about water strategies; gear, amounts carried, etc on what has worked well in the past?


    Second concern – Lighting

    I know I will not finish before ‘full’ dark. That means I will need good lighting/battery on the last part of the trail, especially with all the remaining single track. With a 3:00am start I will have already used about 2.5 hrs of battery. My current system is only good for about 2.5 hrs so that means extra batteries or a new system. I am leaning towards a new system with, one or to lithium-ion batteries. Any comments or suggestions? Has anyone tried out the new NiteRider Moab HID unit? Claimed 12 hr runtime at 720g?

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by trail717
    Locations to re-supply with filtered water
    • I am assuming there will be several creek crossings in the 1st half/La Sal section of the trail? (Start to Dewy Bridge) I read in the 2004 KTR results that Fisher Creek was used to filter water but my map shows at least two times we will cross Fisher, will both crossings generally have water flowing in May? Any other logical filter location crossings in the first half?
    • In the Second half of the trail (Dewy to Loma) it looks like we would have 2 locations to filter from the Colorado River with out actually leaving the trail, Dewy and Cisco Landing? Anyone ever filtered from the sandy Colorado River? Then there would be the Westwater River Ranger Station about 1.5 miles off course? BLM site says the water from the station is not always available but I would assume it probably would be in May, if not you could filter here as you would be down to the river?
    Any general comments about water strategies; gear, amounts carried, etc on what has worked well in the past?
    Here's the deal with H2O at Westwater ranger station - they have a ranch-style spigot but claim it's for emergencies only. That's the "sometimes available" part, they may let you, they may not. It's kept locked normally. You can pump from the CO river right there or numerous other spots but as one pioneer put it years ago, "too thin to plow, too thick to drink." You'll have to clean your filter a good bit. Wrap a bandanna around the filter inlet to save some cleaning, it'll keep a lot of silt out.

    You may get lucky at a couple drainage ditches west of there but it's hit or miss based ono the weather lately. Count on that water being just as silty. Same from that point to Salt Creek (mile 130 for you), you may get lucky at a couple ditches, don't count on it.

    In the La Sal's you'll find water in a few spots. There's a secret spring at Castle valley, a good dependable flow around N Beaver Mesa & sometimes at Hideout Canyon. Don't use Onion Creek, it's polluted with old mining operation runoff.

  70. #70
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    I felt, last year, my HID was total overkill for the beginning. I was really wishing I didn't have the extra weight in my pack. For this year I'm considering just using a petzel to start off, but I don't think I'll finish in the dark.

    Were that the case, and you don't want to spend $. I would get a cheap light for the start because the road is wide open and relatively smooth and then use your good light for the finish.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    I felt, last year, my HID was total overkill for the beginning. I was really wishing I didn't have the extra weight in my pack. For this year I'm considering just using a petzel to start off, but I don't think I'll finish in the dark.

    Were that the case, and you don't want to spend $. I would get a cheap light for the start because the road is wide open and relatively smooth and then use your good light for the finish.
    Excellent suggestion, you saved me some money and more important some weight!! Snow/winter conditions allowing I hope to be able to pre-ride the La Sal section but may not be able to. I road the Moab/Porcupine Rim/Moab loop last year so I have ridden the first couple of miles of the start, Sand Flats road up to the Porcupine Rim Trail turn off, and agree a ‘cheap’ petzel type light would work well with this easy road and lower ‘climbing’ speeds. So I could expect the trail conditions to be mostly similar till sunrise, no rocky descents type terrain till after 1st light?

    Thanks

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Hearn
    Here's the deal with H2O at Westwater ranger station - they have a ranch-style spigot but claim it's for emergencies only. That's the "sometimes available" part, they may let you, they may not. It's kept locked normally. You can pump from the CO river right there or numerous other spots but as one pioneer put it years ago, "too thin to plow, too thick to drink." You'll have to clean your filter a good bit. Wrap a bandanna around the filter inlet to save some cleaning, it'll keep a lot of silt out.

    You may get lucky at a couple drainage ditches west of there but it's hit or miss based ono the weather lately. Count on that water being just as silty. Same from that point to Salt Creek (mile 130 for you), you may get lucky at a couple ditches, don't count on it.

    In the La Sal's you'll find water in a few spots. There's a secret spring at Castle valley, a good dependable flow around N Beaver Mesa & sometimes at Hideout Canyon. Don't use Onion Creek, it's polluted with old mining operation runoff.

    Thanks for the tips and info, I am looking forward to studying your new Kokopelli’s Trail Guide.

    I will be getting a chance to practice your ‘bandanna around the filter inlet’ tip on that tasty old Colorado River water in March.

    Hopefully during the race I can just use the spigot at the Westwater ranger station. However I want to have a tried and proven water option/method especially on the last half of the trail!.

  73. #73
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    Excellent!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Hearn
    Hi all, I was just alerted to this forum, someone said you were talking about me...

    I wrote the guidebook you've been referring to, just published it last month. It's starting to get some airtime thru forums like this & it's pretty flattering - thanks!

    Alex.
    www.bikerpelli.com
    The book's on order from Amazon.

    Good info being posted here by everyone - thanks!

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    I felt, last year, my HID was total overkill for the beginning. I was really wishing I didn't have the extra weight in my pack. For this year I'm considering just using a petzel to start off, but I don't think I'll finish in the dark.

    Were that the case, and you don't want to spend $. I would get a cheap light for the start because the road is wide open and relatively smooth and then use your good light for the finish.
    This is my line of thinking as well. I plan on finishing before dark, but you never know...I'd hate to get caught in the dark without some real lights to get me home. What are the final 10-20 miles of the trail like?

    I am thinking that 2 BLT Ozone 9ines might be perfect for this race. They are cheap, they burn for a long time and are very light and easy to carry. The $64,000 question though is...are they bright enough to get me down some tough single track? I would guess that for dirt roads and jeep track that they would be adequate. Anyone have any time with these lights?
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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    This is my line of thinking as well. I plan on finishing before dark, but you never know...I'd hate to get caught in the dark without some real lights to get me home. What are the final 10-20 miles of the trail like?

    I am thinking that 2 BLT Ozone 9ines might be perfect for this race. They are cheap, they burn for a long time and are very light and easy to carry. The $64,000 question though is...are they bright enough to get me down some tough single track? I would guess that for dirt roads and jeep track that they would be adequate. Anyone have any time with these lights?
    The last 15 miles are part of the popular Kokopelli’s Loop Trail Area, there are about 5 loops here and the main trail uses sections of several of these loops. Several intersections to contend with and a lot of single track, some rocky, a dismount or two, some cliff exposure etc. Some of the trail is rated black diamond, some medium and some rated easy on local trail maps. If you hit this section in the early evening and have any thing left you are in for a single-track treat.

    However after full dark I personally would not ‘ride’ a lot of this final section with out a top line light. If I lost a main light I could probably ride/walk it with a weak backup type light as I am familiar with this final section.

    Note: This IS probably the most fun and convenient section of the course to pre-ride if you arrive in the area early enough on your way to Moab.

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    Water Strategy

    Start light for the climbing. Refill at N.Beaver Mesa. That should get us to Westwater ranger station no problem. Westwater is the last refill to my knowledge.
    What can we expect at Westwater Station? Open or closed tap? Is filtering river water good enough?
    What is best water strategy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    This is my line of thinking as well. I plan on finishing before dark, but you never know...I'd hate to get caught in the dark without some real lights to get me home. What are the final 10-20 miles of the trail like?
    Do not get caught out there without good lights! Even if you 'think' you'll finish before dark, have at least two hours of 'reserve' on your good lights--you won't regret it.

    The last 10-20 miles are some of the most techy of the whole race. Not crazy stuff, but there's some exposure, lots of ledges and rocks, and you can rarely see very far ahead. Without a good light, in the dark, you'll be walking a significant portion (50%+) here, or riding at walking pace.

    MC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    I felt, last year, my HID was total overkill for the beginning. I was really wishing I didn't have the extra weight in my pack. For this year I'm considering just using a petzel to start off, but I don't think I'll finish in the dark.
    Don't forget abou the 40mph descent on twisty, cracked pavement just before sunrise. We hit it with some light last year, but you'll probably get there sooner this year...


    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    Were that the case, and you don't want to spend $. I would get a cheap light for the start because the road is wide open and relatively smooth and then use your good light for the finish.
    Good idea. Don't leave the good light at home folks--you're gonna need it at some point, guaranteed.

    MC

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    The weather was perfect...

    So this being Colorado, the weather was perfect for riding this weekend and Friday afternoon I headed to Fruita to scout some more of the Koko. Stopped by MC's to pick up my new wheelset - can I just say two words here - "They Totally Rock!". Ok three words. Highly recommended.

    On Saturday I rode from Westwater and headed west. Started a bit late in the day. Changed to an 18 tooth cog at the trailhead and then Space CadEd spent about one hour dorking around with the chain - once a year I go thru a re-learning process on links and chains. I dorked around enough to where I ruined one of the links and it broke 3 times during the ride before I finally chucked it. Stomped on it at Bookcliffs today so I think it's fixed.

    So, riding the desert is awesome. I'm tooling along and there is nary a wisp of wind but there in front of me a ghostly sight. A column of tumbleweeds about 50 feet high was rising and falling in it's own little twister as it moved across the scrubland. It was totally silent and watching this bizarre sight was spooky in a really good way.

    Uh, goatheads were EVERYWHERE. Luckily brand new Bonty Jones at 38 psi fended off all thorns so this retroTube guy had no flats. Be warned.

    Then the fun starts. I'm out a ways and as I usually do when scouting, I stop frequently to take a look behind me so I can understand the return trip a bit better. Well, on one stop, just as I was thinking I better turn around so I don't get caught out in the dark, I spot a large herd of sheep appearing out of no where behind me and quickly mowing their way towards the trail I was to return on. DANG!! For those of you unfamiliar with what this means I'll tell you. I decided to turn around right then and high tail it back so's I could beat them sheep and get past 'em without a hastle. Well I almost made it. I was just scooting by the first few which were about 50-100 feet off trail and thought I had made it when I suddenly saw a sheep running VERY fast right at me. I knew I was screwed. Then I saw another sheep and another, all three of them tearing for me. I stopped immediately!

    Well these weren't sheep, these were very large, white sheep dogs and they ain't friendly let me tell you. They barked and snarled a lot and they surrounded me. I thought the most aggressive dog was going to bite me. It actually touched my leg with it's muzzle as it snapped at me. Not a pleasant feeling. I couldn't do anything. If I moved the slightest bit it would provoke an attack, if I ventured a look into the face of one of the dogs it would enrage them. There was no one around. I just stood there, staring at the horizon, talking in a low voice to the dogs. I think I said "Good dog." a hundred freakin' times. One of them was behind me, one to my side and that mean one sniffing me all over - he finally popped a squat right next to me and took a nice healthy dump. Very sweet, who's the boss?

    Needless to say I escaped unscathed after about 20 mins of more angry bluffs and barking. Luckily I am not scared of dogs and I figured these dogs, even as vicous as they acted, were trained to keep predators away from the sheep and that's it. So I was nervous but I wasn't terrified. I have no idea what would have happened if I was scared and tried to run - worst thing in the world to do. I was also lucky in that the herd of sheep decided to move away from us instead of settling down and the dogs eventually followed them leaving me alone. So, if you see a herd of sheep out there, be aware, but stay calm. Dealing with three mean dogs is not easy.

    So that's a Koko story for February. More pre-rides coming up I'm sure. Stay tuned.

    See ya

    Ed E
    Last edited by edemtbs; 02-12-2006 at 11:08 PM.

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    we don't need no stinkin' lights?

    First off, I am confused. Does the race start at 3-4am or midnight? The website suggests midnight. Why the change?

    I don't know if MC planned it this way, but May 13th is on a full moon. Thus it seems no lights will be necessary to climb up that first road. Will we get to the downhill before or after dawn? The end of the race will depend on whether the start is at midnight or 3 am I guess. The moon will not be up again until 30 minutes after civil twilight (twilight: 8:50pm, moonrise 9:20pm) so if you're out there late you'll need lights in the evening for at least a short period.

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    I'm not even sure if I can get away to race the KTR, however it is clearly on my mind: I had a dream last night that I raced the KTR and it was super easy and only took me 5 hours to complete. Guess I'm feeling positive about it. It was also a loop around a large lake instead of a desert point to point, so reality was distorted in a number of ways.
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    Start time

    Hey Everyone-

    Sorry about the lack of communication lately. Those of you who've started your own business need no explanation about where I've been. Those of you who haven't, I'll just say that sleep (even an hour or so) has been more important to me lately...

    The start time for the Kokopelli Trail Race has been changed to midnight. The main reason for this was to encourage more finishers.

    Over the last 5 years of putting this race together, the bulk of non-finishers have resulted from still being way out on the course when the sun goes down. This info was gleaned from conversations with the DNF's from the last few years.

    While few directly referenced 'darkness' as the main reason for their withdrawing from the race, they all indirectly pointed to the fact that they'd started in the dark, ridden all through the heat of the day, and were heading back into the dark. Few had prepared to do so, either with lights, clothing, food, or, most importantly, mentally. Faced with many more miles of trail, much of it technical, with little food, little light, little energy, and far less motivation, and it's easy to see why so many people pulled the plug before finishing.

    But, you're asking, why change the start?

    Based on the conversations I had with many of the DNF's, as well as the informal KTR "board of directors", we concluded that starting at midnight would eliminate the 'going into the second night' DNF's for two reasons. Primarily because few will start the race without enough light to get to the first dawn (and for 98% of the racers that's all the darkness they'll see), but also because they'll be much farther along in the day and far, far more likely to be done before the coming of the second night.

    Hope that makes sense to you. Don't hesitate to ask for clarification.

    Thanks,

    MC

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    Different dynamics...

    A midnight start is a significant change, to say the least. Everyone has to plan a minimum of 6 hours night riding. At least this will minimize the afternoon ride time if you're flying...

    A lot can happen in 6 hours of night riding. How far do you figure the faster riders will go in 6 hours? Dewey perhaps? Is that section all dirt road or mixed with single/double track?

    I'm also wondering if the new start time will impact route finding or water visibility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hairball_dh
    A midnight start is a significant change, to say the least. Everyone has to plan a minimum of 6 hours night riding. At least this will minimize the afternoon ride time if you're flying... A lot can happen in 6 hours of night riding. How far do you figure the faster riders will go in 6 hours? Dewey perhaps? Is that section all dirt road or mixed with single/double track?

    I'm also wondering if the new start time will impact route finding or water visibility.
    You're right, it is significant, and I'm glad that you noted that it's "different". I think it's advantageous in many ways, and a slight disadvantage in others, but not better or worse overall--just different.

    We wanted to make sure that everyone was planning properly (without creating rules that mandate what one must carry) for the darkness.
    -The upshot is that almost no one will need to go back into the dark on the second night, and overall temps for most will be cooler (because they'll ride less in the heat of the afternoon).
    -The downside is that some will be carrying 'more light'. For some nothing will change because they already had 6 hours of light on them.

    Overall, I think that routefinding will be easier (yes, easier) as the markings are reflective and you'll have fewer visual distractions to contend with in the dark.

    I don't think there will be any change in ability to find water. Fisher Creek runs right under the road and you smell/hear it before you see it. The only other water source that we'll cross in the dark is a small stream that we have to cross through, twice, to get down the trail.

    I don't think anyone will make it to Dewey in the dark. I think it usually takes closer to 7 (or more) hours to get there. The section from the start to Dewey, like the rest of the trail, has a little of everything; doubletrack, singletrack, pavement, ledgy/technical, etc...

    MC

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    I am curious what people are going to do for lights. I have a few ideas but I have not been able to test them. I am thinking of going with 2 lesser lights on my handlebars, rather than pack around the Hid with its big bulky batteries. If I can find a set up that will burn for a long time, and still provide enough rideable light then I should be set. Of course finding the right set up is the trick.

    So what are other people thinking of doing to get them through the 6 hours of dark?
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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    So what are other people thinking of doing to get them through the 6 hours of dark?
    I'm curious to hear some ideas as well. Civil twilight is 5:38 am for Moab on that date...and the double shot lasts a little over 5 hours & is a pretty light helmet mounted package. I'm not certain a single spot beam would be sufficient - probably not. Might also have something on the bars to supplement it as needed, but nothing that takes up valuable water bottle space.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    I am curious what people are going to do for lights. I have a few ideas but I have not been able to test them. I am thinking of going with 2 lesser lights on my handlebars, rather than pack around the Hid with its big bulky batteries. If I can find a set up that will burn for a long time, and still provide enough rideable light then I should be set. Of course finding the right set up is the trick.

    So what are other people thinking of doing to get them through the 6 hours of dark?
    I'll probably use the Exposure Enduro light. 8 hours on low beam, and low is way more than enough for all of the climbing. I'll supplement it with a helmet mounted spot that's good for ~2 hours.

    MC

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    I'll probably use the Exposure Enduro light. 8 hours on low beam, and low is way more than enough for all of the climbing. I'll supplement it with a helmet mounted spot that's good for ~2 hours.

    MC
    I have been looking at the Exposure light as well. From all accounts it seems like the ideal light, although I have not read any user reviews, nor actually seen one in person. I am thinking of running 2 of the BLT Ozone 9ine lights (http://www.blt-lights.com/ozone9ine.htm) on my bars, and then possible a mountaineering type headlamp as a back up. The BLT lights look good on paper, but then so do a lot of things. If they work as intended they might be a nice inexpensive alternative to the Exposure.

    Also, on an unrelated note, I am thinking of doing some KT exploration rides in March/April. I will post dates here once I get them pinned down. If anyone is interested let me know. I can be reached through my blog, or at adamlisonbee at gmail dot com
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    Am I the only one who thinks the full moon light will be sufficient to see by for most of the night? I'm not super familar with the course, but the first 30-40 miles or so dirt road, and isn't the start 17 miles of up? I mean, I know there are some technical and downhill bits in there, but I'm thinking that a 5 W LED with 3 hours of burn time should cover that. Right?
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    Full Moon

    Quote Originally Posted by FishMan473
    Am I the only one who thinks the full moon light will be sufficient to see by for most of the night? I'm not super familar with the course, but the first 30-40 miles or so dirt road, and isn't the start 17 miles of up? I mean, I know there are some technical and downhill bits in there, but I'm thinking that a 5 W LED with 3 hours of burn time should cover that. Right?
    I'm with you FishMan about the full moon (edit: cloudcover being a wild card of course). At the VT125 race last year, a midnight start, I did not have to use my main light in the open areas. I primarily used it for fast stuff or on the CT singletrack in deep forest. I don't recall how much moonshine we had.

    alizbee - March 11-12 I'm planning another run at KT pre-riding (edit: starting from CO Loma/Westwater side most likely).

    Later -

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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    I am curious what people are going to do for lights. I have a few ideas but I have not been able to test them. I am thinking of going with 2 lesser lights on my handlebars, rather than pack around the Hid with its big bulky batteries. If I can find a set up that will burn for a long time, and still provide enough rideable light then I should be set. Of course finding the right set up is the trick.

    So what are other people thinking of doing to get them through the 6 hours of dark?
    When I do it in 2007, I'll be using a AAA Powered 7LED Headlamp set as well as a AAA Powered 5LED Forehead light. I'll get about 14 hrs of light that way and between the two, I should have plenty of light!
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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    I am curious what people are going to do for lights. I have a few ideas but I have not been able to test them. I am thinking of going with 2 lesser lights on my handlebars, rather than pack around the Hid with its big bulky batteries. If I can find a set up that will burn for a long time, and still provide enough rideable light then I should be set. Of course finding the right set up is the trick.

    So what are other people thinking of doing to get them through the 6 hours of dark?
    Here is my clear as mud thinking so far on lights, may change radically as I have some fun testing out all my assumptions.

    I do not currently have any working lights so I have the opportunity to set up for the KTR (and other future night rides) from scratch. I have decided one ‘good to medium’ quality HID light (one also good enough for future fun/fast group rides) and one ‘long lasting’ back-up/climb light. After some trail time with a back-up/climb light and some pre-riding of the start I may leave the HID home.

    HID
    For my HID light I ordered (and just received today ) a ‘Topeak MoonShine HID’ ($299 internet buy, Ben’s Cycle & Fitness) with the smaller Li battery: 370g total claimed system weight , claimed 2.5 hrs on 7W low, helmet or bar mount. See Topeak web for pictures and full specs. After I fully evaluate the unit I might order a second small sized Li battery (≈250g?, 2.5 more hrs, $90) or the larger Li battery (≈520g? , 4.5h claimed on 7W low). I am not necessarily thinking of hauling a second MoonShine battery on the KTR but might like the extra one for other type rides/events.

    !!See my new Toy!! (Wife not to happy with all this ‘light’ stuff & cost)
    Some Ramblings: Just got back from a quick 40 min trial run around my neighborhood, handlebar mount on my old fully rigid hardtail, did some small and medium washboard bumps at speed to check mounting, some dirt/ice and pavement etc, about 20° F ambient Mount, light and thumb switch all worked very well. Cable connection looks and feels solid. At first I thought the 7W low was just fine for everything I was riding tonight. My initial impression of the difference between 7W &10W was noticeable but did not seem very important, however as I came back down a old potholed pavement descent at around 30+mph I really was using the 10W, much better under this condition than the 7W.
    More Ramblings: Unit kicked in to it’s claimed 30 min reserve right after 40 min of combined 7/10, this time agrees with manual for temp effect on Li batteries and required ‘first charge’ battery training, will see how much it improves after several charges and warmer temps.
    Final Ramble: The light/bulb assembly, connecting cables, battery and battery mount all have the look and feel of top notch quality, both from a manufacturing and an engineering sense (Yes I suffer slightly form being an engineer). The Handlebar mount is very light and seems 100% functional (so far) but it does lock down with an allen bolt (wing style bolt hear we come). So the HB mount lacks the nice quick on/off “clam action w/finger adjust” feature of the more expensive systems. Also the Helmet mount looks ok but the strap is to ‘stretchy’ to be of practical use, can probably be upgraded/replaced fairly easily.


    Backup/Climb
    For my back up/climb light I am seriously looking at the 3 or 5W LED DiNotte lights. They have AA NiMH (you can carry spare set of std AAs or buy a second set of rechargeable NiMH from radio shack) or a proprietary Li battery option.

    DiNotte just emailed me their current price list, here is some of it:

    Some DiNotte Product Comparison Chart Info

    Ultra 3 $169 AA NiMH Helmet 80 Lum 3 Watt 4 / 2 /20 hrs

    Ultra 3 Lithium $269 Li Ion Helmet 80 Lum 3 Watt 16 / 8 / 40 hrs

    Ultra 5 Lithium $299 Li Ion Handlebar 120 Lum 5 Watt 12 / 6 / 40 hrs

    I have read some posts on DiNotte, they sound like the perfect light weight helmet light for ‘fill-in lighting’ and climbing. I like the idea of off the shelf backup batteries but their new Li’s have great run time (at a cost of course)
    Any one have recent experience with DiNotte?
    Last edited by trail717; 02-24-2006 at 10:25 PM.

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    Also, on an unrelated note, I am thinking of doing some KT exploration rides in March/April. I will post dates here once I get them pinned down. If anyone is interested let me know. I can be reached through my blog, or at adamlisonbee at gmail dot com[/QUOTE]



    I to will be in area several times in March/April, one date that is 90% is March 17/18

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    Quote Originally Posted by trail717
    I to will be in area several times in March/April, one date that is 90% is March 17/18
    I am 90% that I will be in the area that weekend as well. However we may be on the White Rim instead of the KT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by trail717
    Also, on an unrelated note, I am thinking of doing some KT exploration rides in March/April. I will post dates here once I get them pinned down. If anyone is interested let me know. I can be reached through my blog, or at adamlisonbee at gmail dot com

    I to will be in area several times in March/April, one date that is 90% is March 17/18
    I'm riding Dewey Bridge to Loma on March 17th and would love company. So far it's just me and my wheels. Plan is to ride through at a decent pace without stopping much.

    Lemme know.

    LW

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    That sounds great!

    Quote Originally Posted by LyndaW
    I'm riding Dewey Bridge to Loma on March 17th and would love company. So far it's just me and my wheels. Plan is to ride through at a decent pace without stopping much.

    Lemme know.

    LW
    Hi Lynda - March 17th is definitely do-able. Like you, I would like to ride at close to race pace.

    Let me know what you think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LyndaW
    I'm riding Dewey Bridge to Loma on March 17th and would love company. So far it's just me and my wheels. Plan is to ride through at a decent pace without stopping much.

    Lemme know.

    LW
    That is a strong "likely" for me. I've been wanting to do back to back epics for a while, so this should give me that opportunity.
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    An option I am considering for lights is to run a Princeton Tec Corona Bike on my bars with the Princeton Tec EoS on my helmet. The Eos runs for 6 hours on 3 AAA batteries, and the Corona 30 Hours on 8 AA's.

    Both of these lights can be bought for less than $80 combined (here is the best price I have found online www.night-gear.com) which makes them an attractive option. As usual though, I am wondering if they will provide enough light...

    I thought I'd throw those out here and see what people thought. I have to admit that the lighting issue for this race continues to keep me up at night. Mainly because there are so many choices for long burning LEDs, and yet there is no real way of seeing them in action. I did manage to take a look at the Eos and Corona headlamps at my local sporting goods store, and they seem adequate, but it was difficult to tell in the only slightly dimmed area of the store.

    Perhaps I should just get one of those 10 million candlepower flashlights and strap it to my bike.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    An option I am considering for lights is to run a Princeton Tec Corona Bike on my bars with the Princeton Tec EoS on my helmet. The Eos runs for 6 hours on 3 AAA batteries, and the Corona 30 Hours on 8 AA's.

    Perhaps I should just get one of those 10 million candlepower flashlights and strap it to my bike.....
    Wow...you've been doing some homework. I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to lighting. How lumens compares to watts or candlepower is a mystery...but it looks like one of them (the EOS I think) has a 1W burn rate. Compared to the doubleshot's burn rate of 10W (2 x 5W LEDs, right Jeff?) it sounds pretty minimal. I've ridden that road up to the top of Porcupine and most any light would suffice for that section, but beyond there is a mystery to me.

    Keep us informed if you test one of them!
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    Princeton tec Corona LED light

    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    An option I am considering for lights is to run a Princeton Tec Corona Bike on my bars with the Princeton Tec EoS on my helmet. The Eos runs for 6 hours on 3 AAA batteries, and the Corona 30 Hours on 8 AA's.

    Both of these lights can be bought for less than $80 combined (here is the best price I have found online www.night-gear.com) which makes them an attractive option. As usual though, I am wondering if they will provide enough light...
    I've been using Princeton Tec Corona on my helmet to complement my HID light and I am very pleased with the performance of this light. It is very light and gives enough light output to ride a fire road. I would not use it for technical singletrack or on very fast sections, since it does not illuminate far enough. You should be OK on climbs with this light, but I would recommend a stronger light for the descents. I am considering this race also, if I decide to go, I am planning to start with the Corona and bring my HID (4 hours of burn time) for the technical/fast downhill sections.

  100. #100
    Grizzly
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    I have a NiteRider Blowtorch, and I love that light. The big downfall to it is the humungous battery that takes up a bottle cage. I just do not want to take up a bottle spot with a bulky battery that once the sun rises I am having to lug along. It is true Dave that I have been doing some research on lower power (1-3W) lights. I think I have been doing to much, because I am constantly running through different combinations in my head, pairing up different lights and seeing what they cost, etc... It is enough to drive a man nuts. I have decided "for sure" what I want now at least 4 times.

    A great resource though has been James Sharp's GearReview.com LED shootout. He has photos of beam patterns, a chart with burn times, charge times and costs, and a lot more info. It is a must read for anyone in the LED market.

    I am also with you Dave on the trail conditions beyond Porcupine Rim. I haven't any idea as to what awaits us there.
    Last edited by alizbee; 03-03-2006 at 11:55 AM.
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