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  1. #1
    Daniel the Dog
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    High Intensity Interval Training theory

    I have been tacking this HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training) that states that short 90% heart rate training is the key to fitness and weight loss. I'm not convinced because I'm not sure 10 minutes of sprints is going to get one ready for an endurance event. The HIIT proponents claim that long medium efforts do nothing but stress the heart and body in an unhealthy way. They claim that Cortisol is pumped due to the stress on the body. I don't buy it but there may be some science behind it.

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  3. #3
    Dirty South Underdog
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    When they say "fitness and weight loss," they're talking about just that- for the average, sedentary, overweight person. If you're trying to be good at riding a bike for upwards of a few hours, you're going to have to practice riding a bike for upwards of a few hours. There's really no way around it.

    Cortisol is released (I don't think I'd go so far as to call it "pumped" ) in order to aid in the breakdown of stored fat, carbohydrate, and protein to be used for energy (ATP) production. It's a normal process that's neither totally undesirable nor dangerous.

    Aerobic exercise does result in some oxidative stress in the body, but not to an unhealthy degree. In fact, it's believed that the body gets "trained" at dealing with the free radicals produced by aerobic oxidation (the main way you're getting ATP during aerobic exercise), and that "training" increases the body's ability to deal with free radicals from less desirable sources such as pollution, etc. and might have a role in the prevention of some diseases, such as cancer.
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  4. #4
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    I incorporated HIIT in my work outs about a year ago and I think there are good benefits to it. I mix it in with weight training, karate and biking. I can get a better work out in less time than traditional aerobic training. Here's a couple routines I like:

    Indoor running track: 1 easy to moderate lap at about 1 minute then punch/kick a heavy bag full out for 15 - 20 seconds then back to running 1 lap. Repeat 6 - 8 reps. Short and intense. Beats the heck out of running 30 - 45 minutes. I have my karate class do this and they love it, even though most are laying on the floor at the end.

    Outdoor running track: On my bike, start on the outside lane and ride one lap at easy to moderate pace. Then full out sprint half a lap. Back to easy to moderate pace for 1 lap then repeat 6 - 8 reps, moving in one lane each time. Burn baby burn.

    I think it's a good training tool to be added to your other routines. Give it a try and let us know what you think.

  5. #5
    It ain't easy being Green
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    Duh. Interval training is key; all the pros say so and practice what they preach. Carmichael, Allen & Coggan, Weins, Absolon, the list goes on; all of them recommend interval training for _all_ athletes, particularly those who specialize in endurance.

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/7gy19c0ku1mw42ny/
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11772161
    http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com...etraining.html

  6. #6
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    Leadville Training Plan...

    Any links to good ones for the final 12 week push? I'm looking to break 9hours (2004 -11:00, 2005: 9:36, 2006: 9:42, 2007 9:27 2008/09: didn't race). Thoughts?

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    Dirty South Underdog
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    Yeah- I didn't mean in my first post that you shouldn't do any of that (did some today myself!), just that if you are an endurance athlete, you also need to do some specific endurance training as well, whereas if you're just an average joe looking for health and wellness, then the diversity isn't quite as important.
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  8. #8
    PeT
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrea138
    Aerobic exercise does result in some oxidative stress in the body, but not to an unhealthy degree.
    Interestingly, re-oxygenation after being anaerobic leads to a burst of reactive oxygen species and that can cause some serious problems depending on the tissue we're talking about. Lots of research is going into trying to mitigate that response in individuals suffering heart attacks, as a lot of the damage that happens isn't so much from spending some time anoxic but rather from the oxidative burst that happens once blood flow (and oxygen) returns -- apoptosis is triggered and significant damage to heart muscle may occur. In experimental systems where apoptosis is inhibited upon re-oxygenation, there's much better outcomes from anaerobic --> aerobic transitions.

    I'm all for including intervals in with lots of tempo rides as an effective way to train for endurance racing. I don't feel that HIIT alone would get anyone near where they need to be to maximize their potential in a 8 to 24 hr race. At the same time, I think many folks don't include enough short, max effort interval workouts into their endurance training regimen.
    "The plural of anecdote is not data." -- Attributed to various people in a variety of forms, but always worth remembering...

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    Dirty South Underdog
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeT
    Interestingly, re-oxygenation after being anaerobic leads to a burst of reactive oxygen species and that can cause some serious problems depending on the tissue we're talking about...
    One of the professors I worked with in grad school was looking into various antioxidants and if they could lessen the effect of exactly what you're talking about. He had subjects doing repeated Wingate cycle tests immediately followed by muscle biopsies. It was pretty crazy to watch, but he hadn't found anything of significance last I read.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    I have been tacking this HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training) that states that short 90% heart rate training is the key to fitness and weight loss. I'm not convinced because I'm not sure 10 minutes of sprints is going to get one ready for an endurance event. The HIIT proponents claim that long medium efforts do nothing but stress the heart and body in an unhealthy way. They claim that Cortisol is pumped due to the stress on the body. I don't buy it but there may be some science behind it.
    The theory is that high intensity intervals raise your power at lactic threshold. Since endurance racing is done mostly below threshold, it should help.

  11. #11
    Rider
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdcadbiker
    Duh. Interval training is key; all the pros say so and practice what they preach. Carmichael, Allen & Coggan, Weins, Absolon, the list goes on; all of them recommend interval training for _all_ athletes, particularly those who specialize in endurance.

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/7gy19c0ku1mw42ny/
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11772161
    http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com...etraining.html
    More good stuff. I've been under the impression that staying below max level of effort was where I should perform most of my pre-race workouts (I'm new....). I thought that I had read that in an article on Ultracycling, but must be mistaken.
    No blogs here, nothing special.....I just like to ride my bike.

  12. #12
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    You can't go wrong with practicing on similar terrain, and effort level, you anticipate experiencing in the race you are preparing for.

  13. #13
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    This link may offer some insite to the beneftis of HIIT training
    http://www.mont24.com.au/gear/?IntCa...IntContId=7531

    Mark fenner is a BAD ASS racer and coach from Down Under. He offers a nice little training plan on 10ish hours per week for ultra racing. His blog is also FULL of useful information.

    I beleive in the HIIT philosophy, but I also think to race long you still have to have some long saddle time. I do some personal coaching for some endurance guys and gals and normally trend to do HIIT for most of the training plans. Mind you...most of my athletes are adults with families so training time is already at a limited time.

    Speaking from personal expierence I have had good success with low hours at a much higher intensity. I ran a trail marathon on just 3 long runs of 13 miles, and felt strong the whole race. But, I also was doing crossfit 4-6x's per week and running maybe 2 days per week. When it comes to long mtb events I try and go longer at least 1-2 days per week. Usually on weekends due to job and family obligations. I think if you go longer than 12 hours you have to put in the long rides of upwards of 8 hours or so. I tend to do back to back long rides to get my taint and head prepared for the rigors of racing long.
    For Ironman my training averaged b/w 8-12 hours. I did alot of training at "Sweet spot training" or zone 3 as it is also called. I can tell you this doing a 4 hour ride with 2 hours at zone 3 is PAINFUL!! On all my long rides or runs I very rarely just rode or ran. I would do different kinds of intervals with verying times from 1min to 90 mins. One of the worst workouts I did was 90 mins of 1 min on 1 min off at or above 300 watts. I hurt like hell!!

    Anyway I hope you guys find the link useful and my personal expierence.
    C ya on the trails!

    Drew

  14. #14
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    Good Stuff! I have done a lot of 12-24 hour races in the past and have been pretty successful. I really have never had a training program, I just kind of went out and rode my bike - A LOT! I was riding around 20-25 hours a week for a couple of years - with no specific training rides. I did get into a routine of a super hard ride on Tuesdays (All out effort for 60 min) and then riding or racing hard on Saturdays - with all the other days of the week just normal rides.

    Well, this year I was going to "quit" racing... well, just race for fun and to do the events and not care about placing. I found out this is not as much fun as being in contention, so I started training again!!

    This time I am taking a different approach and enlisted a coach to assist - I really do not want to put in 25 hour weeks anymore, it gets old!! He has been providing me with a bunch of different workouts - a lot of them similar to what has been posted already. I have been doing a lot of intervals, LT rides, very low intensity recovery rides, some running, and hill climbing specific intervals. I think I am at about 12-15 hours per week of training, but it is totally different than before. I am about two months in and starting to feel stronger on the rides, and have really noticed an increase in speed and the way I feel in the second half of the races (but, the longest event has just been a 4 hour race). I have a couple of 12 hour and 100 mile races coming up in the next couple of months... so I will get to see first hand how this type of training transitions to the endurance stuff.

    Not very helpful right now for this post, however in a couple of months I will know the answer to the OP question first hand - having done both types of training for endurance events...

  15. #15
    Waiting for Godot
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    you want to train your lactate threshold not your max heart rate.

    the higher your "LT" the faster you can go and even ride rested at the speed that tires out others.
    lets say that riding on a flat ground your LT is 27 mph. if you train your LT up to 32 mph and your opponent's LT is still 27 mph, you have the option to ride at his LT while he will be slowly getting more tired and you are resting. or you can push the pace, forcing him to get worn out faster than you.

    the lower your heart rate, the more you are conserving energy. you can ride farther faster this way. i can ride all day at 40 beats minus my LT as long as i keep up on nutrition.

    training your max heart rate is only good for sprints when you need all out speed and power. that does not happen very often during endurance races.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    I have been tacking this HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training) that states that short 90% heart rate training is the key to fitness and weight loss. I'm not convinced because I'm not sure 10 minutes of sprints is going to get one ready for an endurance event.
    HIT alone will not prepare you for endurance races; There's no avoiding putting in the hours in the saddle.

    But HIT intervals thrown in when you are crunched for time can yield big fitness gains for relatively little time. The Tabata protocol is a good example - 20 sec on ALL OUT, 10 seconds rest, keep it up for 4 minutes and you're done. (If you feel like you can ride any more after this, you didnt do them hard enough! ). This has been shown to not only boost your anaerobic capacity (as you'd expect) but all the markers of aerobic capacity as well (mitochondrial density, VO2Max, etc).

    It's worth fitting that kind of HIT training into your training schedule. Especically when you dont have time for a 2 hour workout. But I doubt that anyone could successfully race a 100-miler on Tabatas alone.

  17. #17
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    Tabatas are wild and can be done for just about any exercise. I am thinking about doing Tabata for all my non-bike workouts.

  18. #18
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    Your body improves when you, and this word is very important, 'overload' it. Intervals cause overload. Steady long rides do not cause anaerobic muscle fiber overloading.

    Another critical part of this puzzle:

    Lets say you ride an endurance race, say 9 hrs, and somehow you know that means you need to ouptut 180 watts during that time.

    Okay, so your pulse after 15 min at 180 watts (that gives you a relative notion of how hard 180 watts is for you, lower is good, higher less good) will be determined by how many watts you can put out for a few minutes - lets call that the 2 min max. If your 2 min max is 400 - 600, then your pulse will be lower at 180 watts than if your 2 min max is 250. If you can only put out 250 watts for 2 minutes, then putting out 180 will require a high percentage of your 2 min max and it will be very difficult. Intervals push out that 2-min max.

    So working somewhat near your max stretches out your max (overload = increase in power output over time) and makes it easier to stay at that 180 goal. If you never put out high watts, your max will always be low.

    Endurance specialists certainly maintain closer to their 2 min max than sprinters for a 9 hr push (which is why they are endurance specialists), just to say that the relationship between 2 min max and 9 hr max is not a constant across all people. In fact, there are endurance riders who focus in their training on long steady rides, and they will find that they can maintain pretty close to their 2 min max for 9 hrs (relatively speaking, I don't mean 90% or something). Of course, what is ironic is that those will benefit the most from evolving their 2 minute max.


    If you have a ride with rolling large hills then you can simulate formal interval training by going crazy over the hill parts *for some rides* - not all. Mountain biking itself, in its normal mode, kind of imposes intervals versus more steady road rides so most of you are probably already doing intervals of a sort as it is. During a race you'd of course want to maintain a more level power/heart-rate output.


    EDIT: Ah, funny, OilCanRacer says what I'm referring to above. I hadn't read his post carefully.

  19. #19
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    www.sealfit.com

    Try that for a couple of weeks.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rontele
    www.sealfit.com

    Try that for a couple of weeks.
    Have you heard of David Goggins? When he went from being just a Seal (as if there is such a thing as "just" a Seal, I mean no disrespect) to being an ultramarathoner, he didn't do sealfit.com workouts, he became a modern day Forrest Gump. His workouts: run.

    So, if you want to be a strong, fit cyclist, what should you do... oodles of calisthenics or ride your bike?

  21. #21
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    chronic cardio is terrible for your body. read: cortisol being pumped into your system.

    i intermix crossfit and sealfit into longer weekend rides. it keeps things fresh, interesting and gives a good mix of aerobic and anaerobic activities.

    i'm also a total hack wannabe, so I really do not know what I am talking about.

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