Mountain Bike Reviews Forum banner

Hammer Nutrition - Perpetuem??

12K views 47 replies 26 participants last post by  1sportsdoc 
#1 ·
I will be riding a 2 man 12 hour event this weekend aka I will be in the saddle for about 6 hours. At what point do I switch from straight HEED to Perpetuem?

Do I start out and finish with just Perpetuem and forget the HEED? I don't get it.:confused:
 
#3 · (Edited)
Andrea138 said:
Don't overthink it... what do you usually eat/drink on long rides? Do that.
You are assuming that what I "usually do" is the best for me and there is no reason to pursue a better plan.:confused: Odd.

Argh..how do you keep tracking down my Hammer comments and questions? FWIW I have used so many products...ranging from Cytomax to Carbo Pro.

For me, there are CLEAR differences between products. A lot of times, it seems to be what type of fuel they are using and in some cases also the type of proteins used...

I want to find what works best for me. Hammer products are next on my list. For this reason, I now ask questions about Hammer Products, as I know that they are extremely popular and people seem to be overwhelmingly happy with them compared to other companies that get poor reviews.

I do appreciate Hammer's effort to stay on top. They do a great job. The offer a very informative free book, that you seem to think is all just propaganda with NO useful info. It is just 130 pages of "buy our stuff". That would be pretty repetitive don't you think?
 
#4 ·
Actually I think Andrea is on to something important in this case: don't do in a race what you haven't tried in training. You don't want to blow up when you've got money down and other people counting on you.

I usually alternate between perp and gel on my long (3+ hr) rides just for some variety, and the advice I've seen from Steve suggests you can mix these things 'freestyle' without much worry.
 
#5 ·
rydbyk said:
I will be riding a 2 man 12 hour event this weekend aka I will be in the saddle for about 6 hours. At what point do I switch from straight HEED to Perpetuem?

Do I start out and finish with just Perpetuem and forget the HEED? I don't get it.:confused:
i have skipped the heed and used perpetuem the whole time...and water...and some coke

:D
 
#6 ·
verslowrdr said:
Actually I think Andrea is on to something important in this case: don't do in a race what you haven't tried in training. You don't want to blow up when you've got money down and other people counting on you.
Yeah- That's more what I was getting at. Training isn't just for making your legs & lungs faster. It's when you figure out how to fuel yourself as well.
 
#7 ·
Completely agree with Andrea and think that is the most important thing. I think someone would be best off just sticking with what they have done before, rather than doing things that work for others, but may or may not work for them.

That said, rides under 2 hours, I personally use Heed. Rides over 2 hours, I don't use Heed at all, but use Perpetuem. I know others swear by SE (Sustained Energy) over Perpeteum.
 
#8 ·
after some of the comments from others on forums and my recent interest Paleolithic Anthropology, nutrition, natural movement, etc...I am backing off on some of the sugary supplements and trying new things.

you can actually buy certain meat products dried that are organic grass fed etc but you have to mail order this type of thing. you're not going to find it in stores. I am not saying everyone can tolerate whole food digestion with strenuous activity, and I never would have thought so either, but I am investigating!

:thumbsup:
 
#9 ·
can't do it anymore

burned out on perpetuuuum. kinda like i'll never drink southern comfort again.

gu makes a nice product. not really the same thing. but it has a more enjoyable flavor and i haven't burned out on it. i need to eat chewable food to keep me going. lots of water and keep the electrolytes in check with an electrolyte additive.
 
#10 · (Edited)
I did several 6 hour races this last season, my first race being my first ride of over 4 hours (I have never even driven 6 straight hours). I was a mess. I brought Gatorade, water, Paydays and some gels. After 3 hours I was stopping after every every lap (6 - 6.5 miles)...to rest, stretch and fight off cramps that began shortly after 33 miles. I ended up with 46 miles in 5:36

A racing buddy turned me on to Hammer products. I ultimately ended up using Perpetuem (in two 3 hour bottles) and hammer gel (in a flask) along with water and Endurolytes for one long training ride and then for my 2nd race three weeks after my first. What a difference. I did not need to stop at all during the race. After ~3 hours, I pulled up next to my cooler, dropped off my empty 3 hr bottle and grabbed a waiting bottle and I was off (never got off the bike). I still fought off some cramps after about 37 miles, but I never locked up and was able to press on even though I was riding faster and harder; 56 miles in 5:38. I have stuck with this combo (with some slight tweaking) since and though my times/miles are nothing to brag about, I am very happy with the improved results.

My stomach is one that does not like solid food when exercising so the liquid/supplement diet during the race was perfect for me as I was able to take in food my body needed in an easy to digest form. If you can stomach the product (maybe try the sample pack while training before ordering the large serving container) I say go for it!

Edit: Discalimer: The courses for my first two races were different, but both were here in the Triangle (meaning neither had to much climbing) and each had slightly different challenges, but the main point was that my body felt good enough to keep going at a good, consistent rate without the need to stop for rest. While I know there are many products out there, I am definitely sold on Perpetuem and Hammer Gel (not a paid advertisement...though I wish it was). :)
 
#11 ·
I'm a Perpetuum fan for anything over 2 hours and pretty much only water if less. Remember - no electrolytes to speak of in Perpetuum, so if you're shifitng with something that has them, you'll need to add enduralytes or similar.

Also, Perpetuum gets funky - like sour milk - if it gets warm for very long. Either keep your extras in a cooler, or mix right before using.
 
#12 ·
I just did a 12 hour two man race and was in a similar dilemma. I have been doing long 4 hour rides and using Perp on those rides. The 12 hour race is a little different as knew I would be going hard for about 50 minutes and then have a 50 minute break. I also have found that I do better with some real food mixed in if possible.

So I decided to not use Perp for this event. I only had water on the laps and during the breaks I downed a bottle of Heed, took e-caps and ate a little real food. I then downed a gel as I left for my next lap. I figured I had some time for stuff to digest and this worked great. I had very consistent lap times and we ended up passing the leaders on lap 8 and gaped them by 20+ minutes by the end.
 
#13 ·
Perpetuem is good fuel but it tastes ... like fuel.

I like the taste of HEED so I stick to that in my water bottles.

Then I make a gooey concoction of 1 scoop perpetuem, 2oz gel, 2oz water. Dense with calories and less viscous than gel alone so you can drink it down quick and get it over with :thumbsup: I generally do 1 bottle + 3 oz "gooey mix" per hour.
 
#14 · (Edited)
perrygeo said:
Perpetuem is good fuel but it tastes ... like fuel.

I like the taste of HEED so I stick to that in my water bottles.

Then I make a gooey concoction of 1 scoop perpetuem, 2oz gel, 2oz water. Dense with calories and less viscous than gel alone so you can drink it down quick and get it over with :thumbsup: I generally do 1 bottle + 3 oz "gooey mix" per hour.
So..from the start you are pretty much giving your body protein?

Also, do you put the concoction in a flask?
 
#15 ·
rydbyk said:
So..from the start you are pretty much giving your body protein?
Yeah just a bit of protein from the perpetuem/gel mix. I tolerate it fairly well for endurance races where the pace is sub-threshold. For a 90 minute XC race, it makes me puke.

rydbyk said:
Also, due you put the concoction in a flask?
I mix up a big batch and put it in little 5oz gel flasks.
 
#16 ·
rydbyk said:
I will be riding a 2 man 12 hour event this weekend aka I will be in the saddle for about 6 hours. At what point do I switch from straight HEED to Perpetuem?

Do I start out and finish with just Perpetuem and forget the HEED? I don't get it.:confused:
It's already been said, and it was good advice, don't experiment with something in a race unless it isn't an important race or your partner is ok with you experimenting during his race. If you are using the race as a learning tool and your partner doesn't care what happens then your question makes sense. Had to get that one out of the way first...

My question to you is... are you switching laps with your partner i.e. racing an hour, then waiting an hour, then racing an hour, etc? Or are you doing 6hrs straight, then waiting 6hrs while your partner races? Obviously two different strategies to fueling.
 
#18 ·
staylor said:
It's already been said, and it was good advice, don't experiment with something in a race unless it isn't an important race or your partner is ok with you experimenting during his race. If you are using the race as a learning tool and your partner doesn't care what happens then your question makes sense. Had to get that one out of the way first...

My question to you is... are you switching laps with your partner i.e. racing an hour, then waiting an hour, then racing an hour, etc? Or are you doing 6hrs straight, then waiting 6hrs while your partner races? Obviously two different strategies to fueling.
Yep...got it. I have been using the products off and on for a bit and in different ways. It will be nothing new necessarily...just trying to dial it all in. Maybe I should wait until after race day to do the minor tweeks?

To answer your question, I will be waiting approx 50+minutes after each lap I finish. What do you suggest? I am always wanting to hear what works best for other riders even though we are not all the same...
 
#19 ·
rydbyk said:
Yep...got it. I have been using the products off and on for a bit and in different ways. It will be nothing new necessarily...just trying to dial it all in. Maybe I should wait until after race day to do the minor tweeks?

To answer your question, I will be waiting approx 50+minutes after each lap I finish. What do you suggest? I am always wanting to hear what works best for other riders even though we are not all the same...
Sounds like you have a pretty good perspective on things, with that said my suggestion would be this:

- With 50min +/- laps, your pace won't be so much an endurance pace, rather it will be multiple XC-ish intervals. Given that your pace will be quite a bit more intense than endurance there is a larger possibility that your stomach will rebel against high levels of protein.

- Given that Perpetuem is soy protein which tends to be a slower assimilating protein (in my opinion), it is a relatively high dose of protein per serving (in my opinion) and has fat content I would reduce my usage of Perpetuem during the event.

- Given that HEED is essentially just maltodextrin with some electrolytes that's not going to be enough to carry you through the entire 12hrs.

- Assuming you want to race on just liquid nutrition for the entire event (even staying on liquid while you are in the pit waiting for your partner), I would suggest mixing the two products so that you are gaining some protein advantage to help satiate hunger, trick the body into thinking you can go for a long time with the fuel it is getting and continue the continuously required repair process.

- The key is fixing the ratio so it's right for you, based on your bodyweight, level of race intensity, how accustomed your body is to processing certain fuels under certain loads (efficiency of metabolizing), etc.

- I don't know what amount of cals you have raced on previously at an XC-ish pace but it should be less than an endurance pace (as a general guideline) so take your normal endurance cal per hour and reduce it by approx 10-15% while on bike.

- As soon as you get off-bike I would suggest taking in more of the Perpetuem rather than the HEED/Perpetuem blend but get it done right away so you have a chance to assimilate it before getting to the staging tent and out on to the race course. Whatever you do, make sure you have switched to the lower protein blend at least 30mins prior to stomping on the pedals.

- My recommendation would be not to exceed your normal endurance race pace cals per hour no matter what you are consuming (straight HEED, straight Perpetuem, or a blended ratio).

- Final recommendation, err on the side of caution and under-calorie initially until you get a feel for how your body is going to process whatever you are taking during those first few laps of XC-ish pace.

I know some of this sounds complicated, it doesn't have to be, make it as simple as you want. As long as you keep your cals per hour smart and protein levels low enough everything should be ok. I'm just trying to provide some ideas for your consideration.

Disclaimer: I race on Infinit, I really like it, I stay on liquid Infinit for the duration of 24hr races and it works for me. I don't like Hammer's Perpetuem at all, I wouldn't race on Perpetuem if a free 100lb box of it fell out of the sky and landed at my feet. Hopefully Perpetuem works for you.
 
#20 ·
staylor said:
Disclaimer: I race on Infinit, I really like it, I stay on liquid Infinit for the duration of 24hr races and it works for me. I don't like Hammer's Perpetuem at all, I wouldn't race on Perpetuem if a free 100lb box of it fell out of the sky and landed at my feet. Hopefully Perpetuem works for you.
How do you find the protein in the Infinit? I have a bag that I haven't tried yet because I am afraid of the protein after a few experiences with Perpetuem. It is dialed down a bit, so I'm sure it is less than Perpetuem and Infinit claims that their protein is easier to digest. My other option is to go with Heed.
 
#21 ·
EBrider said:
How do you find the protein in the Infinit? I have a bag that I haven't tried yet because I am afraid of the protein after a few experiences with Perpetuem. It is dialed down a bit, so I'm sure it is less than Perpetuem and Infinit claims that their protein is easier to digest. My other option is to go with Heed.
I have about 500hrs of *race* time on Infinit and a bunch more time trg on it. I've never had a problem on Infinit, I race on 3 custom blends of my own choosing, two are identical and each one has protein in it with the only difference between both of them being one has caffeine the other doesn't. The third blend has no protein in it and I use it to clear any residual gastro protein buildup after several hours of racing, if I am pushing a lot of calories back, because I have upped my regular hourly caloric load which of course increases the associated protein load.

My body works well on approx 4gms of Infinit protein (and a bit of BCAA) per hour at an endurance pace, if I start increasing the protein load by just a few grams more per hour my gut starts to react to that. Everyone is different of course but I have a pile of athletes who use the same custom formula as I do and they are all happy with it. My suggestion would be to crack that bag open and go out for your normal training workload and see how you feel on it, then after a few rides on Infinit go out for a several hour ride simulating the race pace of your choice to see how your system responds to it.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Staylor:

Thanks for the long list of tips. Sounds like you have a bit of experience:eek: In your opinion, why is Infinit better than Perpetuem?

Also, is HEED your choice for anything you do or do you simply stick with Infinit for any distance including training too??

Know anything about that Joel Friels "Short and Fast" mix for under 90 min races (what I usually race)??
 
#23 ·
rydbyk said:
Staylor:

Thanks for the long list of tips. Sounds like you have a bit of experience:eek: In your opinion, why is Infinit better than Perpetuem?

Also, is HEED your choice for anything you do or do you simply stick with Infinit for any distance including training too??

Know anything about that Joel Friels "Short and Fast" mix for under 90 min races (what I usually race)??
I think to answer your question on why Inifinit is superior to Perpetuem you should go to Infinit's website and look at their comparison charts. Next, you should ask questions just like you are now in order to get opinions. Last, you should buy a bag and check it out to form your own opinion. My answers to why I prefer Infinit are... it doesn't do well sitting in a bottle for several hours, it gives me bloating and nausea after several hours of racing, I can't stand the taste and texture after several hours of trg/racing especially in the heat, I don't want to have to pop electrolyte pills during a race if I don't have to, and several other reasons but they are all just my opinion and that is only an isolated study, though I have seen similar opinions shared by others on this and other forums.

I don't use HEED for anything, I don't need to. I race on Infinit and it's a good solution for me, I've raced for over 30hrs straight on just liquid Infinit so that has to demonstrate it works well... for me.

I don't know anything about Joe Friel's mix, other than it has Joe Friel's name on it. ;-)

My suggestion would be to drop the folks at Infinit a line, explain to them the kind of racing/trg you do and they will help you build a custom solution. I would type in my 10% discount code for you right now but it would muddy up the message that I'm trying to send, I don't want to sound like a shill. My only purpose for spending time on the thread was to try and help you out just before you hit their race weekend.

If you want the discount code just PM and I will fire it your way.
 
#24 ·
staylor said:
I think to answer your question on why Inifinit is superior to Perpetuem you should go to Infinit's website and look at their comparison charts. Next, you should ask questions just like you are now in order to get opinions. Last, you should buy a bag and check it out to form your own opinion. My answers to why I prefer Infinit are... it doesn't do well sitting in a bottle for several hours, it gives me bloating and nausea after several hours of racing, I can't stand the taste and texture after several hours of trg/racing especially in the heat, I don't want to have to pop electrolyte pills during a race if I don't have to, and several other reasons but they are all just my opinion and that is only an isolated study, though I have seen similar opinions shared by others on this and other forums.

I don't use HEED for anything, I don't need to. I race on Infinit and it's a good solution for me, I've raced for over 30hrs straight on just liquid Infinit so that has to demonstrate it works well... for me.

I don't know anything about Joe Friel's mix, other than it has Joe Friel's name on it. ;-)

My suggestion would be to drop the folks at Infinit a line, explain to them the kind of racing/trg you do and they will help you build a custom solution. I would type in my 10% discount code for you right now but it would muddy up the message that I'm trying to send, I don't want to sound like a shill. My only purpose for spending time on the thread was to try and help you out just before you hit their race weekend.

If you want the discount code just PM and I will fire it your way.
Thanks. Will do..
 
#25 ·
Great thread with useful info. To add on.....anyone have a take on Hammer Race Caps? Worth the $? I have a race next week and have never used them.........but curious about any success stories with this product?

(I will anchor a 4 man relay at the BarnBurner in Flagstaff, AZ (26 mile fire road loop at 7k ft). Not sure I want to add anything new this close to a race.........
 
#26 ·
I've had great luck with endurance racing using a 50/50 mix of Perp and Heed. I like the combo of a bit of protein and electrolytes, and love the way the Heed modifies the awful flavor of straight Perp. Although I don't really give a darn about flavor during a race, I certainly do during training. The 50/50 mix works well for me. I have been tempted to try Infinite, but unlike others, I've been a bit scared off by the customization part of it.

STaylor, if you're willing to share your formula, please PM me and I'll try a bag of the stuff.

Finally, if you like late race caffeine, IMO, nothing beats some flat Mountain Dew!
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top