I went for a long ride fueled by Perpetuem, got really nauseous on the climb back, which did not go away on the long decent back. I got a cold Gatorade Ice, sipped it for a little bit and barfed on the VTA light rail platform.
Last Saturday I wanted to go on a long ride that had a lot of climbing to prepare for the Tahoe Sierra 100. I picked a road ride (sorry roadie content) over the front and back side of Mt Hamilton east of San Jose Ė 96 Miles, 10800 ft.
Going up Hamilton seemed effortless and I did not push the pace, letting riders doing lesser rides pass me. I was fueled mostly by Hammer Perpetuem 1 hr bottles and munched a little bit on a chocolate Luna Bar, that I got at the Lick Observatory vending machine (Mt Hamilton). I forgot my other bars back at home.
Starting the backside decent it felt blow dryer hot around noon. I rode out to the Junction Bar, a cool cowboy bar, and met a touring couple and the dude said that it was 100 deg F, but I thought that was a false reading from his bike computer.
Itís a long way back on rollers and 2 hills before you start the steeper back side of Hamilton , so I took it carefully. It was probably around 1:30 pm, with 7 to 5 miles to go to the top of Hamilton that I started to feel really hot and nauseous. I stopped a couple of times and was counting each mile. I even stopped at the piped spring, to toss water on myself and dunk my water bottles that felt as hot as tea.
I got to the top and which did not hurt my legs as bad as I thought, but my stomach was still bad. I filled up with some cold water and put some cold water on my face and arms and listen to some other riders that just did the front side talk about their uber expensive deep carbon rims. I did not feel any better, so I decided just to rest on the way mostly down 15-20 miles into town. I sipped the plain water to see I that helped, but it did not.
I took the 2 hills that you hit slow and got all the way down and thought about bailing and riding VTA Light Rail from Alum Rock to Campbell saving 10 miles of hot city stop and go, but taking a lot longer due to the VTA route.
I stopped at a liquor store to get a cold drink and the best choice that I could think of is Gatorade ICE, which I got because it is less sweet than standard Gatorade. I sipped some of a berry flavor and it tasted like battery acid. I waited for light rail and ended up get Ĺ way to the platform planter before barfing up 8-28 oz of 100% liquid.
I think my problem started with either taking too many calories of Perpetuem and Luna Bar or I just donít like the slower burning fat in Perpetuem that is suppose to enhance body fat burn and make you feel satisfied. Another thing I learned recently is that Perpetuem has electrolytes that come naturally in it ingredients, but not enough for hot day of climbing. I have electrolyte capsules, but forgot to bring them, so that is why I was munching on the Luna bar, hoping that that would give me a larger dose.
I guess my nausea shut my digestive system down from absorbing any water and it was just sitting in my stomach. Hammer says never to mix simple sugars, found in Gatorade with its complex crabs, but since I was sipping of plain water for ~15 miles, I thought I would be empty.
I weighed myself before breakfast at 145 and after the ride 139. Yeah, I did #2 at the half way point, but that is 4% of my pre-ride weight, a dangerous amount of weight to lose. I tried Hammerís Sustained Energy on Labor Day on a 4-5hr ride up and down St. Josephs and Mt Umunhum, sticking to the ~<270 Cal/hr, with success, but that ride was not long enough for me to have a problem.
I doubt it was mixing simple sugars. More likely you consumed too much protein from the Perpetuem. At higher intensity, once you get close to lactic threshold, you can't process the protein. When that happens, your stomach stops emptying and if you throw Gatorade in, it just comes back out. I had that problem until I switched to non-protein drinks. I have heard some people say that it is accentuated by hot weather, but I don't know if that's ture or not, it could just be that you are simply swallowing more Perpetuem and therefore more protein.
If you do a search on this board you will find numerous threads on this topic.
Interesting report. I'm not going to weigh in on the nutritional aspect, as I pretty strongly believe that each person's body responds in totally different ways to the various nutritional products out there.
I'll add, though, that I notice you repeatedly forgot to bring products you'd planned on using. I've struggled with this, too--and I"m not usually lucky enough to score a Luna bar somewhere. I'm usually, at best, buying something like a Snickers at a little gas station. I'm trying to get pretty disciplined about re-packing my food immediately following a ride, or the night before if I know I'm going longer than usual.
So far, that little step has gone a long way to keeping me from eating weird stuff out in the middle of nowhere.
How many calories from Perpetuem were you taking in per hour. I am about 165 lbs and just did a long mountain bike training ride fueling with Perpetuem and gu. 60 miles and 11k vert of climbing
Took in around 120 calories per hour of Perpetuem and 80 calories per hour of Gu. Felt really good the whole ride. I think it's a fine balance on how many calories you consume. I also agree that protein might be causing issues. How many hours in did you start feeling sick?
I had 135-150 calories/hr of Perpetuem and the ~90 calories/hr of Luna Bar over a 2 hrs starting at noon. Sick around hour 4.5 - 5.5
Originally Posted by JTrue
I'm thinking it was more the heat than the Perpetuem. That may just be that I do fine with Perp but that kind of heat would kick my arse.
Good luck at the race!
First of all did you have any other symptoms of heat stroke or heat exhaustion, fatigue, dizzyness, pale skin, stop sweating, ect?? You could have started into one of these heat related problems.
On the nutrition side I haven't been doing this training stuff for these kind of distances much but here is the simple things I took away from university. Sweat rates are about 2 L per hour, you need to replace that when exercising, this is both the waters and electrolytes. Gasteric emptying is optimized at about 6% simple sugars (there is a reason that gatoraid is the most independently studied sports drink out there). I use those two things to make drinks, honestly gatoraid is the one I use just because it works for me and my mindset is that they got it right. Then I try out other foods ect with high glycemic index to get simple sugars into the blood so it can get to the muscles which need quickly.
Now this information was learned about 5 years ago now but I have not herd anything drasticly different, please let me know if I have missed a major paradim shift in sports drinks and nutrition, other then marketing pushes which are not based on third party science. I am going to check out this cal per hour stuff though that might be interesting.
Always try different things and find what works for you
At the SM100 last weekend, I committed an ultimate sin by changing my nutrition from what I'd trained with- I started with a bottle of Perpetuem mixed using their recommended body weight/duration guide.
I had cramps within 20 miles totally locking up both legs. After fighting through the cramps for about the next 20 miles, I was finally able to get my body absorbing the electrolytes and fluids that I needed.
Maybe, as has been suggested, it's too much protein for your body to process? I found that 1 scoop Perp/ 1 scoop HEED per bottle, per hour, worked best for me.
Good luck with the training and nutrition!
Whiskey is my yoga.
My Hammer Nutirion's "Essential to Getting Started",
Originally Posted by jrastories
#1 "Keep fluid intake during exercise between 16-28 ounces per hour" I think the take away is that you can't replace what is lost lost during intense exercise. (
1 liter = 34 ounces)
#3 "Avoid simple sugars in your fuels; use complex carbohydrates only." So, no Gatorade
I only drink Perpetuem when I do long races, 8 hour solo, etc. and it works great for me. I only drink two to three bottles the entire time, space them out about 2 to 3 hours. I've never had a problem getting sick from the Perpetuem.
I have vomited Gatorade before too. Climbing Clawhammer in Pisgah really hard following a breakfast of Cheerios. I projectile vomited green Gatorade and Cheerios. It was awesome. I sat down for ten minutes and then got back on the bike and kept climbing.
I havn't drank Gatorade in over ten years now.
Killroy, do you have this problem with any other electrolyte or cold drinks?
I did some sever vomiting recently after an 8 hour race. I think it was because I was dehydrated, dangerously low on electrolyte/minerals and then drank a bunch of cold liquids in a short time.
I have never had stomach issues until I started doing 8+ hour stuff.
I think I need to back off to 1/2 scoop of Perpetuem an hour or switch fuels.
I did the Sierra 100 and finished in the 10 hour range, which I was lucky to get 2nd 19-29 open because I did have another problem which was over-fueling of mostly Perpetuem. I thought I was going to yack.
It felt like I was getting hunger pains, so I sipped the Perpetuem and a little Hammer Gel when I was not thirsty. I took with me 10 scoops of Perpetuem, but only used ~5, averaging ~80 cal/ hour intake. I thought it was a little low, but ~mile 70 I had to sit down and could of yacked. I switched to plain water and got my strength back for the last climbs and some passes.
After hearing that the Hammer Racers were taking 6 caplets of Endurolytes/ hour, I was pounding those ( ~4/hr) the whole time.
Great job on the training and racing. Really impressive. Tahoe is awesome.
Having been an endurance athlete for over 20 years, I have learned a few of these lessons too. I have 4 recommendations for you.
1. Don't be so set on Hammer products. Perp has a ton of protein, 14%. One of the posts above was right about this. This is a ton of protein. Most folks that do consume protein don't go above 4 or 5%. Everyone is different. It sounds like you may not be in the norm that Hammer is made for. I strongly recommend Infinit nutrition. www.infinitnutrition.com. I don't work for them, but have been using them for over 3 years. Infinit lets you customize all aspects of your formula.
2. As I had been on Infinit and started pushing my training into the realm that you have (5 to 8 hours) I found that my body didn't like processing certain types of carbs. Using Infinit, let me change the carb composition to get into the 24 hour realm.
3. Hydration. In that kind of heat at altitude, it is almost impossible to consume too much water. At altitude and in the heat, I consume 48 to 50 oz of fluid an hour. About 24 oz / hour is my Infinit formula. The rest is water.
If 80 cal/hour is too low, then I want to try less protein like you recommend.
Originally Posted by mcmurv
Hammer recommends keeping fluid intake during exercise between 16-28 ounces per hour (30 oz in extreme conditions) because over hydration is one of the most common blunder by athletes.
Hammer's guidelines are just guidelines for the general population. I struggled for years with this. After frustration and talking with a nutritionist, he concluded that I was getting dehydrated. I did a sweat test and found how much I really needed to drink.
In high altitude and heat, it takes an incredible amount of fluid to over hydrate. I have been through up to 60 oz per hour without any problems, except having to pee some more.
I have good luck with Hammer stuff, but share many of the taste/too high of protein/etc. opinions expressed above on the Perp. I mix 50/50 Perp and Heed for endurance racing. Works great. Better taste, makes me "want" to drink, etc.
For long rides, you HAVE to figure out how to consume 200 or more calories per hour, and it sounds like you are way below that.
Really hot weather makes endurance efforts even tougher, so don't draw any final conclusions before you test them in normal weather. I rode a 100-mile mtb race years ago that finished in 96-98 degree temperatures, and only one third of the field completed the race. Heat really sucks the endurance right of you.
Whining is not a strategy.
R I D E S T E E L
Just a thought, but at the temps you're riding in, I wonder if the protein started to turn. Unsure how often you're stopping for water and a refill of drink mix, but once mixed, the protein will start to turn in about 4 hours (perhaps less in the killer heat you're riding in). I tried Perpet, but unless it's actually cold, I can't take it.
Lots of great comments above. I think you're better off with a mix and match program. Riding in the heat as you do, I'd consider Heed (as it's easier to digest, or a combo of the two drink mixes, swapping back and forth), gel and a steady serving of electrolytes, maybe grabbing a half bar here and there. Hydration is key. When your stomach starts to turn, it often means your lacking nutrients on some level. It's possible that you're having trouble processing all that the Perpetuem offers in heat and under the stresses of climbing at altitude.
Best of luck, be careful out in that heat.
It's the soy protein in perpetuem that turns bad so fast when warm. I had to stop taking perpetuem for that reason. Besides whey protein, especially whey protein isolate absorbs much faster and is more stable at warmer temperature.
I also get mad gut rot from gatorade. I've recently learned that the pH in gatorade is somewhere between 2.7-3.2, that's super acidic and my gut can't take it anymore.
I think Hammer def falls into some marketing about simple sugars. It's main carb, while technically a glucose polymer, has a higher glycemic index than glucose. Maltodextrin is marketed to bodybuilders because of the insulin spike it creates. Which is actually fine, because in a sports drink you sip it so it meters out the dose and you want something that absorbs fast so it doesn't make you bloated. But Hammer says that it won't create insulin spikes like simple sugars, kind of wrong. Meanwhile, newer studies show that mixing carbs improves absorption rates, thereby improving the number of calories that your body can take in, sparing muscle glycogen and pushing back fatigue.
When I read "gatorade barf", I thought it was a new flavor. Sounded better than most.