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  1. #1
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    Endurance Nutrition and Hydration thread

    Whats your preferred nutrition and hyrdation strategy on races over 3hrs and training rides that are similar. Everyone knows the single most important thing other than air pressure is nutrition and hydration. Lets keep all that in one thread.

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  2. #2
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    Did a mix of Tailwind Buzz with gels/peanut butter sandwiches/rice cakes last year for most of the season. That was ok but wasn't consistent and took too much prep. Switching over to Infinit Nutrition custom blend after running their off the shelf stuff for 7+ hours at ORAMM this summer with good results. No solids, just drinking my calories. First race on the custom blend this weekend, we'll see how it is for 6hrs. If anybody wants to try Infinit you can get $5 off I think by using this coupon code: INFINIT-COLEMAN. Should work with other offers too, just used it with the big sale they had last week.

    1 bottle an hour is the plan, maybe every 45 minutes for hot/muggy events. Ends up just shy of 300 cal per hour, my mix has protein and caffeine in it too, along with BCAA's.
    -DC, just some XC Bum in Sfla...

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    Like pinkpowa, I drink my calories, or at least the vast majority of them.

    A 50/50 mix of Hammer Heed and Perpetuem works well for me, shooting for kind of the classic 24+ ounces and 200+ calories per hour (I'm 6'2" and 190 in season).

    Adjusted for weather and intensity, of course.

    I'll occasionally supplement with some Hammer Gel or a Hammer Bar, but the only time I do a bar is at the top of a LONG downhill, so that I actually get some of it digested.

    This has been working for about a decade for me. I'll occasionally experiment with other approaches, but always end up back here.
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    I dig the Clif Bloks, easy to eat and generally tasty...until hour 8+ where I get sick of the taste of everything. Tried Tailwind, disappointed and it tastes awful; cutting each bottle with 4 ounces of grapefruit juice makes it palatable, but I experience less cramping and feel stronger on 3-5+ hour rides while drinking Gatorade.

    Still trying to figure out what works for me. YMMV.

  5. #5
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    I'm a fan of real food. Baked sweet potatoes, a variety of fruits and nuts, Fig Newtons, Clif bars, home brew electrolytes etc.
    "Bicycles have the magic power to go
    to enchanted places cars will never know." - mafo

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    I'm a fan of real food. Baked sweet potatoes, a variety of fruits and nuts, Fig Newtons, Clif bars, home brew electrolytes etc.
    Im with you, salted dates, sliced yams i bake up night before, fig newtons, clif bars, Skratch Labs for electrolytes, maybe an Odwalla superfood juice along the way to keep my gut working. I use Clif Bloks, Untapped maple syrup, and the Gatorade chews as my instant food when im really suffering and need something right now before a climb or something.

    In a race over 9hrs or super hard I will use EFS liquid shot. Stuff is amazing but expensive. I use that only from the start. 3-8hrs its all real food. 8+ hrs im on EFS from the start, skratch in bottle, with Tripwire on hand.

    What kind of fruits and nuts? I havent tried that yet. Dried fruit or fresh?



    To the rest of you...

    Apex Nutrition LLC is Kelli Jennings shes a nutritionist. She has a podcast on Mountain Bike Radio. She also has some pre made plans. I am not overweight but if you are, she has the Fuel Right, Race Light plan. I bought it as a gift to my training friend. He followed it for about 4 weeks and lost 15lbs but you know how that goes. He could only handle so many Kale smoothies before he fell right off that plan. It works if you stick it.

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  7. #7
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    Tailwind for anything 6 hours or less. And that's it. Keeps me fueled, hydrated, and not bloated or sour in the belly.
    You can't buy happiness. But you can buy a bike. And that's pretty close.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VegasSingleSpeed View Post
    I dig the Clif Bloks, easy to eat and generally tasty...until hour 8+ where I get sick of the taste of everything. Tried Tailwind, disappointed and it tastes awful; cutting each bottle with 4 ounces of grapefruit juice makes it palatable, but I experience less cramping and feel stronger on 3-5+ hour rides while drinking Gatorade.

    Still trying to figure out what works for me. YMMV.
    Gatorade gets a bad rap. Its all I use for training, because its cheap in the powder and you can make it weaker or stronger as needed. In a race, it doesnt play well with real food. For me. On a 3hr training ride, ill have salted dates, and a clif blok in case of emergency and g2 low calorie gatorade in my bottles.

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Gatorade gets a bad rap.
    That might be partly due to the use of unnecessary food colorings, that's why I wouldn't use it regularly.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    That might be partly due to the use of unnecessary food colorings, that's why I wouldn't use it regularly.
    I totally understand and am real hesitant to use it when i dont need to. Im real big on eating clean. I just use it for super hot training rides when im pounding through bottles and scratch is 20 a bag. Jeremiah Bishop gave me a homemade drink mix, im going to try that and making my own clif bars once im not living in my van with a real kitchen.




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  11. #11
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    If anybody has homemade drink mix or energy bars or smoothies or anything post them up.

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    There are some who claim the just adding sugar to your water is as good as anything, I'm going to give it a try with a squeeze of lemon and a dash of salt and see how that works.
    I brake for stinkbugs

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    Rice cakes seem to be a staple amongst tour pros, I saw this vid and they look pretty tasty-

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG7bWKK9G7E
    I brake for stinkbugs

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    There are some who claim the just adding sugar to your water is as good as anything, I'm going to give it a try with a squeeze of lemon and a dash of salt and see how that works.
    Jeremiah was talking how none of the marketed formulas have enough Sucrose. He said thats where they all are lacking. I need to study all this on a chemistry level for a few days and see how this all plays out when things are combined, or you need certain ingredients to make the other ingredients activate. He said his is mainly sucrose. I have his recipe written down on a piece of a pizza box from after a race we were talking and having pizza, i hurried up and wrote it down.

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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Rice cakes seem to be a staple amongst tour pros, I saw this vid and they look pretty tasty-

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG7bWKK9G7E
    I have a few rice cake recipes i can share. I cant swallow them without chugging water also. Leads to my stomach bloating out. Thats my problem basically with any liquid food. I just cant fit gallons of liquid in my stomach.

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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    There are some who claim the just adding sugar to your water is as good as anything, I'm going to give it a try with a squeeze of lemon and a dash of salt and see how that works.
    When I first started into this aspect of fuel/hydration, I found a simple recipe on this site that really worked nicely. I'm sorry I forget the exact proportions but it was something like 4 tbls Honey, a similar amount of pure Lime juice, 1/4 tsp of high quality unprocessed sea salt and that was all in maybe 32oz of water. The only reason I quit doing it was I just found it easier to buy something like TW for the amount I was going through. I'm rethinking that now as my allegiances are now elsewhere on the purchased product.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    When I first started into this aspect of fuel/hydration, I found a simple recipe on this site that really worked nicely. I'm sorry I forget the exact proportions but it was something like 4 tbls Honey, a similar amount of pure Lime juice, 1/4 tsp of high quality unprocessed sea salt and that was all in maybe 32oz of water. The only reason I quit doing it was I just found it easier to buy something like TW for the amount I was going through. I'm rethinking that now as my allegiances are now elsewhere on the purchased product.
    I drink maple syrup, iodized salt, apple cider vinegar, and lemon based on this same type of formula. I do that just to stay hydrated. Like the week leading up to a race ill have two of those a day.

    Any recipe that uses salt that isnt iodized is bunk.

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    First off my shortest races are either 6 hours or a 100K, everything else is longer (up to 24 hours) all solo events. So I am on the bike solid. My race strategy for anything 12 hours or under the stops are measured in seconds, with the longest being however long it take me to rip open a zip lock of Tailwind and fill a bottle or two. Meaning for anything 12 hours and under I am completely fueling off liquid.

    I started out my endurance racing many years ago just winging nutrition with random solid foods that I thought would be ok. Stuff like Cliff bars (which I am still ok with), nuts (a big no go for me), proteins like jerky, dried fish (also a BIG no go!!), and other heavier foods. During this time I would usually hit a wall and start cramping very bad around the 4-6 hour mark. I always thought it was lack of training, so I would train more but never made any real gains. I would also experience GI distress, usually in the form of bad gas pains (very unpleasant on the bike!).

    A few years ago I found Kelli Jennings at Apex Nutrition threw the Apex Nutrition podcast on Mountain Bike Radio. She changed my life, more importantly changed my racing. I bought all of her E-books and read them several times. In doing so I learned how the body works, more specifically what our bodies need for fuel, how it digest it, what it doesn't need, etc. She approaches her nutrition based on digestion and it being the limiting factor.

    After learning what, how, and why to fuel from Kelli I started testing to see what worked for me and what doesn't. I found the less solids I used the better. I have raced on Carborocket, Roctane, Skratch, Hammer, (probably a few others I am forgetting) and finally Tailwind. I also tried gels and am not a big fan. But when I started hitting the 75g-90g of carbs, 250-300 calories, up to 900mg of sodium and NO more than 35g-40g of caffeine per hour (plus potassium, and magnesium) all in liquid form I found the cramping was gone, I did not get hungry, no more GI problems, and good energy levels. I found the big difference in all the other mixes I listed and Tailwind is the amount of sodium and both dextrose and sucrose (knowing that your body absorbs the 2 types of sugars through different pathways and that by using both the absorbson efficiency is maintained over a longer period). At first I was very hesitant to try the TW b/c of the sodium amount was almost tripled from the others I was using with decent success. But after talking to the people at TW I decided to give it a try on a long training ride. It may have been totally placebo but I felt like I could feel my energy levels rise with each sip, almost instant. I know it sounds like total BS, believe me I had to test it out several times before I was certain that it wasn't just completely in my head. Since I have switched to TW I can fuel completely on 3 scoops per bottle up to a proven 12 hours.

    I think someone earlier in the thread mentioned Kelli, I just want to back them up and say she is the real deal! Give her a call or email if you want to start fueling correctly and get the most out of your training and racing here is her site:

    Apex Nutrition | Fuel Right Race Light

  19. #19
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    This year I used naked Tailwind so I didn’t have to deal with much of the sweet flavor. I supplemented with enduro bites, ginger stroop waffles, and GU gels. This combo has worked well for me over the years, but always difficult to find the right combo.


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  20. #20
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    in the past I've used maltodextrin (dirt cheap from brew supply shops) and other things (flavor, salt, bcaa...) but it was a very small pain in the ass and I got tired of trying to dial it in.

    These days I use CarboRocket, Elete drops and sometimes Tailwind (I too like the "naked" version). Now race formats dictate my food strategery - I'm getting old and ornery so while I can tolerate these things for 12/24hrs I don't really like it so on lap formats I'll alternate between liquid carbs and elete spiked water and food (sometimes sammiches, sometimes chews/gels).

    6hrs or less I'll use liquid calories almost exclusively. Sometimes with a pack (wingnut ftw!) and if there are appropriately spaced feed zones I'll use bottles.

    I prefer bottles to keep track of how much I'm getting but sometimes if I don't really know what I'm getting into I'll use the pack.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt Disney's Frozen Head View Post
    in the past I've used maltodextrin (dirt cheap from brew supply shops) and other things (flavor, salt, bcaa...) but it was a very small pain in the ass and I got tired of trying to dial it in.

    These days I use CarboRocket, Elete drops and sometimes Tailwind (I too like the "naked" version). Now race formats dictate my food strategery - I'm getting old and ornery so while I can tolerate these things for 12/24hrs I don't really like it so on lap formats I'll alternate between liquid carbs and elete spiked water and food (sometimes sammiches, sometimes chews/gels).

    6hrs or less I'll use liquid calories almost exclusively. Sometimes with a pack (wingnut ftw!) and if there are appropriately spaced feed zones I'll use bottles.

    I prefer bottles to keep track of how much I'm getting but sometimes if I don't really know what I'm getting into I'll use the pack.
    I totally hear ya about mixing in some solids during a format that allows it, like a lap race. I absolutely have to get some solids in me if I'm racing over 12 hours. I just have to be very careful about what solids and how much I take in (but that is just me). However on the shorter races like 12 hours and under I loose too much time trying to deal with solids. On anything 12 h and less I try and keep my pits under 30 seconds and keep them at least 2-2.5 hours apart (depending on how long a lap is), usually 2 bottles between stops.

    How do you manage getting enough solids down and still keep a steady pace up?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by BmanInTheD View Post
    Tailwind for anything 6 hours or less. And that's it. Keeps me fueled, hydrated, and not bloated or sour in the belly.
    ^^ This is all one needs to know. Same plan here and it's perfect.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by KF YORK View Post
    ^^ This is all one needs to know. Same plan here and it's perfect.
    Tailwind was one of my many experiments over the years. It worked fine -- like just about any reputable energy drink would -- but it left a weird aftertaste in my mouth, regardless of the chosen flavor.

    Back to a mix of Hammer Heed and Perpetuem, and I randomly rotate flavors to avoid burnout.
    Whining is not a strategy.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo View Post
    Tailwind was one of my many experiments over the years. It worked fine -- like just about any reputable energy drink would -- but it left a weird aftertaste in my mouth, regardless of the chosen flavor.

    Back to a mix of Hammer Heed and Perpetuem, and I randomly rotate flavors to avoid burnout.
    but Perpetuem doesn't leave a weird taste in your mouth?

    I also tend to chew gum to keep those things at bay - until I go ass over and end up with a mouthful of rocks/dirt in my gum, that's awesome.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbell View Post
    ...How do you manage getting enough solids down and still keep a steady pace up?
    sometimes that's hard but most races have a stretch or two (or more) that allow for one or no-handed riding and I'll shove a quarter of a grilled cheese/half a stroopwaffle or whatever while pedaling. A few seconds off the gas doesn't is a fair trade-off imo.

    On lapped formats ideally I have a pit person/crew or my wife to wipe/lube the chain and I'll eat at that time. I wish it was always that cut and dry.

    A quickie on "sour" stomachs though. I'll use pro-biotics or ginger/mint if I sense that coming on. I tried the non-refrigerated probiotics and they don't seem to have the same effect ymmv ***slightly biased info warning*** CarboRocket rocketlytes have both ginger and mint to help with that as well. Also if you burp, it's minty fresh So far so good.

  26. #26
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    Hey, get your questions in asap



    Im also going to have Kelli post on this thread.

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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt Disney's Frozen Head View Post
    but Perpetuem doesn't leave a weird taste in your mouth?

    I also tend to chew gum to keep those things at bay - until I go ass over and end up with a mouthful of rocks/dirt in my gum, that's awesome.
    Yes, on the Perp aftertaste, but for me, I get none of it if I mix with Heed.

    A buddy of mine does the gum thing while riding. That would be one too many activities at the same time for me!
    Whining is not a strategy.

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    Absolutely, like I said earlier Kelli methods have been 100% effective for me! I agree, if you have questions she is the person you need to talk to! Also I recommend listening to all the previous Apex Nutrition podcast (not to mention listening to and supporting Mountain Bike Radio).

  29. #29
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    Tailwind -- exclusively. For most training, 2 scoops per 24 oz (caffeinated for after-work sessions is really good). For very hot and/or high-level effort up the ratio to 3 scoops per 24 oz. On the 100s I only supplement a little at aid stations with small PB&J pieces, maybe 1/2 banana, maybe some Skittles... simple sugar calories. Eating anything more than that (like Cliff bars, fig newtons, etc) results in a bloated tummy... ask me how I know.
    I just wanna ride...

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaMustang View Post
    Tailwind -- exclusively. For most training, 2 scoops per 24 oz (caffeinated for after-work sessions is really good). For very hot and/or high-level effort up the ratio to 3 scoops per 24 oz. On the 100s I only supplement a little at aid stations with small PB&J pieces, maybe 1/2 banana, maybe some Skittles... simple sugar calories. Eating anything more than that (like Cliff bars, fig newtons, etc) results in a bloated tummy... ask me how I know.
    You take caffeine at night? Youre an animal.

    Try this instead for a pick me up before riding. Guaranteed energy boost, naturally.

    Maple syrup 1 tsp
    Apple cider vinegar 1tblsp
    Iodized salt 1/4 tsp

    Youll get a nice zing going

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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaMustang View Post
    Tailwind -- exclusively. For most training, 2 scoops per 24 oz (caffeinated for after-work sessions is really good). For very hot and/or high-level effort up the ratio to 3 scoops per 24 oz. On the 100s I only supplement a little at aid stations with small PB&J pieces, maybe 1/2 banana, maybe some Skittles... simple sugar calories. Eating anything more than that (like Cliff bars, fig newtons, etc) results in a bloated tummy... ask me how I know.

    ^^^^This......except I don't do the caffeine. I also go 100% TW....I don't eat on the rides. I have learned that TW and food doesn't mix well.
    I resolve to constantly assert my honest opinion on anything and everything - whether it is requested or not.
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  32. #32
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    Anything less than about 6 hours of riding, I just drink water only, maybe a couple of snacks. Racing for 4 or less and i'll use something sugary. 8+ hour races and I'm using Perpetuem.

    My LBS gives me Hammer stuff a lot, so I mostly use it. I got some APX at a race and really like it for short stuff, sub 2 hours.

  33. #33
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    Doesn't the xylitol in Hammer stuff worry you guys?

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  34. #34
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    I’ve experimented with a few different electrolyte drinks over the years and have always preferred real food in small amounts frequently if possible and after reading The FeedZone by Allen Lim, it made even more sense. There is a product mostly in Canada called Eload which is fantastic, no crap, just a good ratio of electrolytes but I switched to home made and Skratch a couple years ago due to the better flavours.

    So now, I either make my own electrolyte drink (recipe below) or Skratch (convenience or if travelling) along with home made cookies/bars based on my dietary sensitivities, supplemented with the occasional Gu Gel/waffle and as I don’t drink caffeine Roctane Gels give me a boost like nothing else so always carry one or two just in case.

    A girl I treat, her coach gave her this electrolyte recipe so I’ll make a big jug of it and use it during the week while training. If using salt best to use Sodium Citrate as it is tolerated in the gut but as I have an account with Gu Energy will use their Roctane Capsules as they have ginger in them. Allen Lim did a talk at a LBS near me a couple years ago and after a lengthy discussion about Skratch gave me an idea on how to tweak the electrolyte solution from that coach. See below:

    Electrolyte solution

    4L water
    10tbsp maple syrup (150ml)
    12 Roctane capsules (1gram salt) (1tsp)
    Lemon juice (1 lemon) (4tbsp)

    Or - Substitute a juice per calorie with the maple syrup.
    Maple Syrup is approx 60cal/tbsp

    I’ve done mango puree for example, 120cal of mango puree in trade for 2tbsp of maple syrup, gives a nice light mango taste and then adjust the salt based on how hot it is, etc...

    D
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    Just recently tried both Tailwind and CarboRocket. Both seem to be effective, and I'm using more TW because they come in convenient "stick packs." I'm training for a 400 mile ultra and another one after that. This will be my first time using TW for a race this long, but I've had good results on 6-9 hour training rides. TW with caffeine is also good for pushing through the night, I'd think. Anyone here do any ultra-type races?

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by osteo View Post
    I’ve experimented with a few different electrolyte drinks over the years and have always preferred real food in small amounts frequently if possible and after reading The FeedZone by Allen Lim, it made even more sense. There is a product mostly in Canada called Eload which is fantastic, no crap, just a good ratio of electrolytes but I switched to home made and Skratch a couple years ago due to the better flavours.

    So now, I either make my own electrolyte drink (recipe below) or Skratch (convenience or if travelling) along with home made cookies/bars based on my dietary sensitivities, supplemented with the occasional Gu Gel/waffle and as I don’t drink caffeine Roctane Gels give me a boost like nothing else so always carry one or two just in case.

    A girl I treat, her coach gave her this electrolyte recipe so I’ll make a big jug of it and use it during the week while training. If using salt best to use Sodium Citrate as it is tolerated in the gut but as I have an account with Gu Energy will use their Roctane Capsules as they have ginger in them. Allen Lim did a talk at a LBS near me a couple years ago and after a lengthy discussion about Skratch gave me an idea on how to tweak the electrolyte solution from that coach. See below:

    Electrolyte solution

    4L water
    10tbsp maple syrup (150ml)
    12 Roctane capsules (1gram salt) (1tsp)
    Lemon juice (1 lemon) (4tbsp)

    Or - Substitute a juice per calorie with the maple syrup.
    Maple Syrup is approx 60cal/tbsp

    I’ve done mango puree for example, 120cal of mango puree in trade for 2tbsp of maple syrup, gives a nice light mango taste and then adjust the salt based on how hot it is, etc...

    D
    Thanks Dennis! Thats so nice of you to post that recipe.

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    What is the 400 mile race you are doing? I would like to try one but there are not many if any on the East coast, at least not that I have heard of...

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    The Stagecoach 400, in mid-March. I feel you, this one is in Southern California and does a loop around San Diego: https://socalenduro.wordpress.com/stagecoach-400/

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    Gotcha, too far for me to travel...

  40. #40
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    Unfortunately I want to do the Stagecoach, but it is inconvenient with other racing I do right now.

    That said, for an event like that, I would try to eat as much real food as possible. Snack bars, fruit, sandwiches, whatever. My bottles would be water only except for having an emergency powder just in case I came up short.

  41. #41
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    I always use Hammer Nutrition Orange-Vanilla Perpetuem and Lemon-Lime HEED mixed.

  42. #42
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    This could probably be a whole other thread, but does anyone have any good resources on becoming fat adapted for the sake of race nutrition? There is a ton of info out there and I would like to narrow it down to a good starting point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DualRollers View Post
    This could probably be a whole other thread, but does anyone have any good resources on becoming fat adapted for the sake of race nutrition? There is a ton of info out there and I would like to narrow it down to a good starting point.
    Lots and lots and lots of z2 riding. Adapts your body to oxidizing fat instead of glycogen at higher zones. I live off healthy fats for the most part.

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    A little outdated and before power/cliff bars or goo ever existed:
    - Coke + tsp sea salt @ 50% water
    - Smashed banana on rice cake (aid stop)
    - Fig newtons (surprised only one other mentioned int)
    - Red vines
    - Starburst
    - Avocados
    - Potatoes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommybees View Post
    A little outdated and before power/cliff bars or goo ever existed:
    - Coke + tsp sea salt @ 50% water
    - Smashed banana on rice cake (aid stop)
    - Fig newtons (surprised only one other mentioned int)
    - Red vines
    - Starburst
    - Avocados
    - Potatoes
    I would use solely fig newtons instead of dates but they just crumble and i have nothing to grab onto while riding. Any suggestions for keeping them in one piece? I have used just figs, a bit harder to chew/swallow in that form.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DualRollers View Post
    This could probably be a whole other thread, but does anyone have any good resources on becoming fat adapted for the sake of race nutrition? There is a ton of info out there and I would like to narrow it down to a good starting point.
    Are you asking about a ketogenic diet? If so...
    Its all about diet, 100% and you must test your blood to know if your in ketosis as everyone is a little different. I am no expert, just know enough to be dangerous. I do not follow a ketogenic diet, but know plenty who do and t seems to work well for them. From what I know the best resource is Dr Dom D'Agostino, here is a good place to start:
    https://ketonutrition.org/

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    Quote Originally Posted by DualRollers View Post
    This could probably be a whole other thread, but does anyone have any good resources on becoming fat adapted for the sake of race nutrition? There is a ton of info out there and I would like to narrow it down to a good starting point.
    I'm not an expert.

    But, LOTS and LOTS of base miles fastest help teach you body to use the resources it has. I start off most of my rides fastest. All my commuting (35 minutes) is fasted. I'll normally get a coupe hours into a ride before I'll take in calories. I did a 134 mile, 8 hour roadie ride and didn't eat for the first hour or so (can't remember). Set a second fastest time on a 12 minutes segment 6 hours into the ride in a solo effort trying to catch the lead group to let them know someone else was falling behind.

    But that's A LOT of base miles fasted to get there. But worth it to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewalk View Post
    I'm not an expert.

    But, LOTS and LOTS of base miles fastest help teach you body to use the resources it has. I start off most of my rides fastest. All my commuting (35 minutes) is fasted. I'll normally get a coupe hours into a ride before I'll take in calories. I did a 134 mile, 8 hour roadie ride and didn't eat for the first hour or so (can't remember). Set a second fastest time on a 12 minutes segment 6 hours into the ride in a solo effort trying to catch the lead group to let them know someone else was falling behind.

    But that's A LOT of base miles fasted to get there. But worth it to me.
    What about your diet outside of riding? Do you eat mostly ketogenic/low carb? I ride in a very similar way to what you described above, commute on an empty stomach, rides 60-90 minutes I generally don't eat, etc. I am trying to figure out if eating a certain way day to day helps with becoming fat adapted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DualRollers View Post
    What about your diet outside of riding? Do you eat mostly ketogenic/low carb? I ride in a very similar way to what you described above, commute on an empty stomach, rides 60-90 minutes I generally don't eat, etc. I am trying to figure out if eating a certain way day to day helps with becoming fat adapted.
    I'm on a see food diet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    I would use solely fig newtons instead of dates but they just crumble and i have nothing to grab onto while riding. Any suggestions for keeping them in one piece? I have used just figs, a bit harder to chew/swallow in that form.

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    For the figs, Mini Sandwich ziplocks work well. In the end, you get crumbled slugs of powdered fig balls, but that'll be the least of your worries.
    Starburst are hidden gems, nicely wrapped blocks that you suck on till they are gone. It is the cheapest goo on the planet!
    Coke has the simple calories, a bit of caffeine and cleans out the rotting slime in your mouth.

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    Are amino acids dead? I've mixing in some Perfect Amino with good luck but I'm susceptible to the placebo effect.

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    Half hour alarm on Garmin eat something, not picky, when it goes off. Hydration pack with Skratch labs mix in it and sip on it consistently, 1 bottle on bike with just water. Tires at 20 psi on my pump not sure what actual psi is

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    Exclusively tailwind for under ~5hr stuff. Mix of tailwind and nature bakery fig bars and/or pb/honey sandwiches for longer stuff.

    Almost never use tailwind while training though. Waste of money and too sweet.

    Typically don't eat anything if training ride is under 2hrs-2.5hrs. Over that then try to eat solid food (fig bars, pb/h, apple, banana....etc) every hour or so.

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    Someone above mentioned lace of sucrose in most mixes (perhaps that was Lane?). Check out Q6-6's 3:2:1 Hydration Base...supposedly an ideal ratio of Maltodextrin to Sucrose to Sucrose + BCAA's. I'm not up on the science end of it, but I have used it in shorter more intense (i.e traditional XC races) and have been pleased. Have not used it for longer stuff.

    For longer stuff, I'm also a fan of calories in a bottle mostly...has anyone tried this: www.maurten.com The pharmaceutical formulation scientist in me is intrigued by their claim of creating a hydrogel to eliminate sour stomach issues with taking such a concentrated drink mix (1 serving is 80 grams of carbohydrate) and optimize absorption properties. Expensive though...yikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    That might be partly due to the use of unnecessary food colorings, that's why I wouldn't use it regularly.
    What about the clear flavors?

    I use Diluted Gatorade and have started adding additional salt. I may start experimenting with adding Caffiene to that mix.

    Also making a switch to Snickers. I find them easy to eat while racing. Easier than messing with Gu. I can hold it in my hand against the grip and keep rollin. Gu makes me feel good but hs been a complete crap shoot for eating while on the move. I even have the Gu canteen. I may try diluting the Gu to make it easier to come out.

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    FJSnoozer, how do you keep the Snickers from melting?

    I'm exclusive TW for up to 12hrs. I haven't done anything longer than that though. For training rides I eat granola bars, Snickers, gummy bears, or whatever else I have kicking around. For races I shoot for 275cal/hr, for training under 3hrs I'm fine with ~100cal/hr. For 90min and under training rides I just eat before and after.

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    The Rockstar Va 265 starts in Harrisonburg Va 4/7/17. Finishes in Roanoke.


    This was in response to Jbell and his too far to travel comment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DualRollers View Post
    This could probably be a whole other thread, but does anyone have any good resources on becoming fat adapted for the sake of race nutrition? There is a ton of info out there and I would like to narrow it down to a good starting point.
    I am interested in this, as well. It seems Kurt Refsnider has been killing it in the ultra endurance bikepacking races on a high fat, low carb, whole food diet. Just haven't found much information on his diet or this approach specifically tailored for endurance cycling. I have also read that Juliana Buhring, one of the protagonists of Inspired to Ride (along with the late Mike Hall RIP) also preferred this type of diet for ultras; one of the benefits being that the fat burns longer so you don't need to refuel as often.

    This high fat diet is totally counter-intuitive to the mainstream cycling nutrition as espoused in this thread and pretty much everywhere; which is to follow a high-carb diet, replenishing every hour. The problem with the high carb diet kind is that if you eat like that off the bike, it will probably makes you gain weight, and if you miss a meal, your system goes out of whack and you bonk. Not to mention that there is the marketing component that clouds our perception from the companies selling these products, who have the incentive to get us thinking it's the best way to go. This mainstream cycling diet is mostly processed foods.

  59. #59
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    As soon as anyone claims a diet is superior to another, I walk away. Find the diet that works for you, don't look for the diet that works for everyone else.

    Courtney is blowing up the ultra world. She is incredible, and young. Makes you wonder how much she will be able to accomplish.

    Scott is probably the greatest known ultra runner to live.


    https://www.motivrunning.com/running...ooking-limits/
    "Dauwalter says her diet is best described as a “normal” American diet with no exclusions."

    About — Scott Jurek

    "All I need is a high-carbohydrate diet with enough protein and fat.”

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by FJSnoozer View Post
    What about the clear flavors?

    I use Diluted Gatorade and have started adding additional salt. I may start experimenting with adding Caffiene to that mix.

    Also making a switch to Snickers. I find them easy to eat while racing. Easier than messing with Gu. I can hold it in my hand against the grip and keep rollin. Gu makes me feel good but hs been a complete crap shoot for eating while on the move. I even have the Gu canteen. I may try diluting the Gu to make it easier to come out.
    Try payday too D. Has that extra salt to digest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MidnightFattie View Post
    I am interested in this, as well. It seems Kurt Refsnider has been killing it in the ultra endurance bikepacking races on a high fat, low carb, whole food diet. Just haven't found much information on his diet or this approach specifically tailored for endurance cycling. I have also read that Juliana Buhring, one of the protagonists of Inspired to Ride (along with the late Mike Hall RIP) also preferred this type of diet for ultras; one of the benefits being that the fat burns longer so you don't need to refuel as often.

    This high fat diet is totally counter-intuitive to the mainstream cycling nutrition as espoused in this thread and pretty much everywhere; which is to follow a high-carb diet, replenishing every hour. The problem with the high carb diet kind is that if you eat like that off the bike, it will probably makes you gain weight, and if you miss a meal, your system goes out of whack and you bonk. Not to mention that there is the marketing component that clouds our perception from the companies selling these products, who have the incentive to get us thinking it's the best way to go. This mainstream cycling diet is mostly processed foods.
    You have some good ideas but they are wrong.

    EVERYONE, every human being on earth, should be on a high fat, enough carb and protein diet. Kurt isnt using a special diet, hes using a normal diet for someone who takes care of what they eat.

    He doesnt use that diet RACING. He uses the same stuff you are saying is processed and all that.

    When you are RACING, your body needs nutrients right now, doesnt have time to process fat and all that. Nobody in their right mind is eating race food as normal food.

    To simplify for you

    Eat a high fat (healthy fats), enough carb, enough protein diet regularly, that helps fuel traditional base training for endurance athletes.

    Eat real food as much as you can on the bike training and racing, as in carbs (sugar), sodium, electrolytes from natural sources. Using gu and gel and all that is fine also, if you are working hard and your body uses it instantly. Otherwise it turns to fat like all junk food.

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    I did a 7hr race the other day.

    What i used..
    50oz of skratch water
    15 dates with salt and maple butter
    1 clif bloks
    1 clif bar

    What i packed..

    120oz skratch water
    15 dates
    3 clif bars
    3 clif bloks
    3 honey stinger waffles
    3 honey stinger chews
    1 gu roctane gel


    I still cant figure out how i climbed 6k ft in 7 hrs on so little food and water. Race pace. It was about 40F and i was a tad under dressed. Im thinking my stomach shut off from being chilled or something.

    Anyways, the next two days it all hit me, dehydration and malnutrition. I guess you must force yourself to take in food and water no matter how you feel.

    Saw guys do the same race on two bottles and 1 gu.

    Goes against all this 100 grams of carbs per hour and 1 bottle per hour for sure. Im always learning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Anyways, the next two days it all hit me, dehydration and malnutrition. I guess you must force yourself to take in food and water no matter how you feel.
    If it is not your A race, this is so important. I've felt fresh enough to do hard intervals 3 days after a 100, and I've also needed 10 days of rest. Nutrition and hydration in the last 2 hours and the hour after makes much of this difference.

    I can't recommend the Feedzone Portables book enough for figuring out calories per hour and hydration levels. To me the key metrics are:
    ml of fluid per hour
    calories per hour
    carbs per hour
    sodium per hour
    cal/mag per hour
    To me these numbers need to be viewed as non-negotiable. Figuring out how to get them and in what form based on course and aid stations is the variable.

    At 145lbs 275 calories per hour is the upper end of what my stomach can handle. Even a slight exceedance leads to my stomach going haywire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by euro-trash View Post
    If it is not your A race, this is so important. I've felt fresh enough to do hard intervals 3 days after a 100, and I've also needed 10 days of rest. Nutrition and hydration in the last 2 hours and the hour after makes much of this difference.

    I can't recommend the Feedzone Portables book enough for figuring out calories per hour and hydration levels. To me the key metrics are:
    ml of fluid per hour
    calories per hour
    carbs per hour
    sodium per hour
    cal/mag per hour
    To me these numbers need to be viewed as non-negotiable. Figuring out how to get them and in what form based on course and aid stations is the variable.

    At 145lbs 275 calories per hour is the upper end of what my stomach can handle. Even a slight exceedance leads to my stomach going haywire.
    So true man.

    I am a big disciple of Dr Lim and use all his stuff and info. I had all my numbers figured out and packed accordingly with a tad extra. You nailed two key things.

    In the last two hours i had a giant climb that i didnt want to push food in during a 45min climb so i was telling myself eat at the top, well at the top i had to stop and put my rain shell on and was in such a hurry i just threw it on and started riding again, when i had meant to take in calories and put my shell on. Got back riding and it was so cold i just wanted it to be over so just put my head down and started pushing hard wasnt taking hands off bars to eat. Then right as i finished i had to jump in my van, it started pounding rain and i just sat there in my kit and helmet lol, getting cramps and all that. I needed to take my recovery drink and start eating. It was a few hours till i had a proper meal, and back on regular water intervals. Felt fine as I went to bed. Then woke up like i got ran over by a train. First time ive ever had that happen and ive done longer harder races in higher heat. I think the higher heat made me drink more and eat and allowed me to work harder.

    Last year i did a 40 mile hammerfest the morning after lumberjack 100, felt like i could have done lumberjack two days in a row. This race has affected a whole week of training. I didnt ride the next day my hamstrings were insanely tight, the next day i could only manage yoga, yesterday i was able to hike for 2hrs. Today i can ride, i feel good enough. Definitely eye opening, i cant be having 3 days off the bike because of reasons i can control.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    You have some good ideas but they are wrong.
    Oh...ok, then. You speak with great authority and confidence over the internet! Thank you for setting me straight on this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MidnightFattie View Post
    Oh...ok, then. You speak with great authority and confidence over the internet! Thank you for setting me straight on this.
    Cause i research stuff. You had some good thoughts they were just misaligned. This thread is about race and training nutrition so when people are talking about what they eat they mean racing and training. A few people have started talking about "diets/eating habits" in general, which is not the point of this thread per se. Yes, endurance racers should be on a high fat diet, with enough carbs and protein, because most of their training is done in zones 2/3. Where your body is burning fat, not glycogen. That has nothing to do with race food. Where you need carbs/glycogen. Nobody races in zone 2. Not fast anyways. Kurt was in zone 4 and 5 a lot in any race he won.

    Fast burning carbs are for racing and training in z3-5. Slower burning carbs/fat for training in z2-3. So it would make sense to eat a diet based around what your race/training is. Hence Kurt high fat diet.
    You started talking about eating carbs every hour, thats racing, not daily life. Like i said you had some good thoughts they were just misaligned. You can get mad and make sarcastic remarks, it doesnt bother me. I like to spread knowledge in the face of ignorance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Cause i research stuff.

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    Yes, I can tell! You are quite the authority on nutrition and many other things, no doubt! Your authoritative and dismissive tone is no doubt justified based on your expertise! Kurt Refsnider races 300-2700 mile races mostly in Zone 4 and 5? Wow, that is remarkable!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MidnightFattie View Post
    Yes, I can tell! You are quite the authority on nutrition and many other things, no doubt! Your authoritative and dismissive tone is no doubt justified based on your expertise! Kurt Refsnider races 300-2700 mile races mostly in Zone 4 and 5? Wow, that is remarkable!
    Go away. Its not play time. If you knew anything at all you would know that yes, in long races the winners are in zone 4 and 5 a lot, while the losers are not, and that Kurt eats hostess cupcakes at the gas station which last i checked is processed food not natural fat. Dont come on this thread playing petty games. Its about racing and training nutrition for endurance xc races, not rides across america or ultra endurance tour divide stuff anyways. Ya that stuff overlaps in some ways but this IS about racing, meaning zone 4 and 5 also. Not bikepacking at 2mph for a week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Doesn't the xylitol in Hammer stuff worry you guys?

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    It makes me sick within minutes.

    It also can kill some animals. Not all packets make it in your jersey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    I did a 7hr race the other day.

    What i used..
    50oz of skratch water
    15 dates with salt and maple butter
    1 clif bloks
    1 clif bar

    What i packed..

    120oz skratch water
    15 dates
    3 clif bars
    3 clif bloks
    3 honey stinger waffles
    3 honey stinger chews
    1 gu roctane gel


    I still cant figure out how i climbed 6k ft in 7 hrs on so little food and water. Race pace. It was about 40F and i was a tad under dressed. Im thinking my stomach shut off from being chilled or something.

    Anyways, the next two days it all hit me, dehydration and malnutrition. I guess you must force yourself to take in food and water no matter how you feel.

    Saw guys do the same race on two bottles and 1 gu.

    Goes against all this 100 grams of carbs per hour and 1 bottle per hour for sure. Im always learning.

    Sent from my SM-G360P using Tapatalk
    So very true! You have to get your nutrition in you no matter what. If your lucky enough for it to not hurt your race it will get you after and can make your next event really suffer.

    Your experience with finding it difficult to get solids in b/c of conditions or terrain (lots of climbing especially for me on a single speed - unless I am walking ) is why I primarily fuel off a liquid base plan. I do eat some solids especially on 12+ hour events just to keep the stomach working and for some slower absorption nutrition. But either way you have to keep the fuel coming in...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Doesn't the xylitol in Hammer stuff worry you guys?

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    Not at all. Way less worry than most of the sugar waters, and it doesn't rot your teeth!
    Whining is not a strategy.

  73. #73
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    Start off with a bit of tailwind (like 1/4 of the recommended dose) and then just water and salt (or ultima). Will pick up whatever swill at the aid station, but water down. For long races will take some sweet potatoe or phat fudge. I am a semi keto athlete. Eat mostly LC and train without carbs. Race with very minimal carbs.
    TTHHHHHHHHHPPPPPPPPPTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

  74. #74
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    Probably the best clif notes are found in Primal Endurance by mark sisson. You might also check out Phil Maffetones books, but they are a bit heavier.
    TTHHHHHHHHHPPPPPPPPPTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

  75. #75
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    Not a lot of info on the MTB side of the fence. But go check out some ultra running forums...tons of info.
    TTHHHHHHHHHPPPPPPPPPTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    You have some good ideas but they are wrong.

    EVERYONE, every human being on earth, should be on a high fat, enough carb and protein diet. Kurt isnt using a special diet, hes using a normal diet for someone who takes care of what they eat.

    He doesnt use that diet RACING. He uses the same stuff you are saying is processed and all that.

    When you are RACING, your body needs nutrients right now, doesnt have time to process fat and all that. Nobody in their right mind is eating race food as normal food.

    To simplify for you

    Eat a high fat (healthy fats), enough carb, enough protein diet regularly, that helps fuel traditional base training for endurance athletes.

    Eat real food as much as you can on the bike training and racing, as in carbs (sugar), sodium, electrolytes from natural sources. Using gu and gel and all that is fine also, if you are working hard and your body uses it instantly. Otherwise it turns to fat like all junk food.

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    I would encourage anyone looking to tune up their diet to read through Lyle McDonald's materials online. He keeps his premises aligned with peer reviewed literature and tends to avoid logical leaps when making inferences.

    Full ketosis is hard for some to maintain. Although brain function can be maintained by ketones in the absence of glucose, some find themselves going fuzzy.

    Carb cycling without going fully ketogenic can be a brilliant way to maximize fat loss without losing energy for training.

    Rules of thumb that dictate macro ratios for all types can be misleading and even dangerous. Better to know your body, know your goals and plan accordingly.

    For the life of me I can't eat fats while cycling. I'd be better off sticking a rusty butter knife in my kidney.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Go away. Its not play time. If you knew anything at all you would know that yes, in long races the winners are in zone 4 and 5 a lot, while the losers are not, and that Kurt eats hostess cupcakes at the gas station which last i checked is processed food not natural fat. Dont come on this thread playing petty games. Its about racing and training nutrition for endurance xc races, not rides across america or ultra endurance tour divide stuff anyways. Ya that stuff overlaps in some ways but this IS about racing, meaning zone 4 and 5 also. Not bikepacking at 2mph for a week.

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    There's no way racing in Zone 4 and 5 is sustainable in a long bikepacking race. No chance. I actually bought a training plan from Kurt's coaching website and he says when you're pushing, you're aiming to be in Zone 1 or 2 (all day pace). Here's an excerpt from an analysis he does of an AZT 300 rider's HR and Power data. Endurance Nutrition and Hydration thread-pushing.png

    I appreciate your passion for mountain biking, but arguing with folks about incorrect information isn't very helpful.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by fitzhenry View Post
    There's no way racing in Zone 4 and 5 is sustainable in a long bikepacking race. No chance. I actually bought a training plan from Kurt's coaching website and he says when you're pushing, you're aiming to be in Zone 1 or 2 (all day pace). Here's an excerpt from an analysis he does of an AZT 300 rider's HR and Power data. Click image for larger version. 

Name:	pushing.PNG 
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ID:	1180064

    I appreciate your passion for mountain biking, but arguing with folks about incorrect information isn't very helpful.
    I wasnt making a point about zones, i just used that to further my point that you cant race an xc endurance race on no sugar. This isnt about bikepacking, i dont study bikepacking, its not really what this thread was about when i started it, and i read kurts blogs and he ate sugary gas station foods, gels, drank liquid fuel mixes, and peanuts.

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  79. #79
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    You can race long without sugar. I have done it.

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    For me nutrition is dependent on what type of race I am doing and what the course looks like. I do mostly Endurance MTB races with a few gravel races. It's much easier to prepare for and execute a nutrition plan while riding gravel, I can take one hand off the bars at virtually any moment to consume food/water. Endurance MTB is much different for me. Knowing the course is crucial for my nutrition goals. If I know there will be a fast, flowy section that will last a while, try and eat and drink before it so I can focus on being fast through that bit rather than looking for a place to try and rip my hand off the bars and jam something in my mouth without crashing. If I know where there are sections that will be hard to eat I try and have a small camelbak filled with tailwind. That way I can just pop in the hose and get my calories. If there are sections that I know I can reach in my pocket I'll eat a GU or waffle. Generally speaking though, for me it usually ends up being a combination of Tailwind and Skratch to drink and a gel, waffle combo to eat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fitzhenry View Post
    There's no way racing in Zone 4 and 5 is sustainable in a long bikepacking race. No chance. I actually bought a training plan from Kurt's coaching website and he says when you're pushing, you're aiming to be in Zone 1 or 2 (all day pace). Here's an excerpt from an analysis he does of an AZT 300 rider's HR and Power data. Click image for larger version. 

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    I appreciate your passion for mountain biking, but arguing with folks about incorrect information isn't very helpful.
    I just looked at the race winners Strava for the 12 hour race I did. He did virtually no Z4, 5 hours Z3, 6.5 Z2, no Z1. I did real shitty, getting sick half way through. I was Z1 most of the day and planning to race Z2/3 for the second half.

    I've got that guy on ignore for a reason.

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    Endurance Nutrition and Hydration thread

    Hi all. This isn’t one of the MTBR forums I frequent, but I figured I’d take a look for any good beta. Lots of good info, and thanks for the input!

    I do endurance XC stuff on my SS, including 12/24-hour solo efforts. Doing 24 Hours in the Old Pueblo in a couple weeks. Not a podium-level racer; just trying to do my best, stay on the bike, not bonk, and end up in the upper 1/3 or so.

    Stomach issues are one of my three concerns in long solo efforts (mental and weather being the other two). My stomach always seems to “turn” at some point, and I struggle to get stuff down. Obviously, that’s an issue in long events. I tend to recoil against “race carbs” (drinks, blocks, gels) after 4-6 hours, and even struggle to drink water. What I have found is I strongly like and need “normal foods”, so I stock my pit (in a lap event) with the following: small sandwiches on dinner rolls (ham and Swiss with mustard, or turkey and cheddar with mustard), cold pizza, potato chips, pretzels, Oreos, Snickers, Twizzlers, and de-fizzed regular Coke (really helps settle my stomach). Oh, and pickles and pickle juice. I will eat a little of the above at each pit stop, but always some Coke. After 4-6 hours, this is all I am eating, and am only drinking water on the course.

    FYI, the race carbs I prefer are Skratch electrolytes, CarboRocket Half-Evil and electrolyte and Clif Bloks. But as I said, I shut down on those after 4-6 hours, other than very periodic sips if I feel I am bonking.

    I’d be interested in any of your thoughts...thanks!


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    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    Hi all. This isn’t one of the MTBR forums I frequent, but I figured I’d take a look for any good beta. Lots of good info, and thanks for the input!

    I do endurance XC stuff on my SS, including 12/24-hour solo efforts. Doing 24 Hours in the Old Pueblo in a couple weeks. Not a podium-level racer; just trying to do my best, stay on the bike, not bonk, and end up in the upper 1/3 or so.

    Stomach issues are one of my three concerns in long solo efforts (mental and weather being the other two). My stomach always seems to “turn” at some point, and I struggle to get stuff down. Obviously, that’s an issue in long events. I tend to recoil against “race carbs” (drinks, blocks, gels) after 4-6 hours, and even struggle to drink water. What I have found is I strongly like and need “normal foods”, so I stock my pit (in a lap event) with the following: small sandwiches on dinner rolls (ham and Swiss with mustard, or turkey and cheddar with mustard), cold pizza, potato chips, pretzels, Oreos, Snickers, Twizzlers, and de-fizzed regular Coke (really helps settle my stomach). Oh, and pickles and pickle juice. I will eat a little of the above at each pit stop, but always some Coke. After 4-6 hours, this is all I am eating, and am only drinking water on the course.

    FYI, the race carbs I prefer are Skratch electrolytes, CarboRocket Half-Evil and electrolyte and Clif Bloks. But as I said, I shut down on those after 4-6 hours, other than very periodic sips if I feel I am bonking.

    I’d be interested in any of your thoughts...thanks!


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    Not much to say. It sounds like you've got your body figured out.

    I have a hard time doing breads or things that need a lot of chewing after about 5 hours or so. Not enough saliva in my mouth, getting mentally fuzzy and so tend to cough and splutter with unchewed bits going down the wrong pipe. And usually after 5 hours I'm not eating bc I'm hungry anymore, it's more of a discipline. If I start to get hungry, I'm in serious trouble.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    Hi all. This isn’t one of the MTBR forums I frequent, but I figured I’d take a look for any good beta. Lots of good info, and thanks for the input!

    I do endurance XC stuff on my SS, including 12/24-hour solo efforts. Doing 24 Hours in the Old Pueblo in a couple weeks. Not a podium-level racer; just trying to do my best, stay on the bike, not bonk, and end up in the upper 1/3 or so.

    Stomach issues are one of my three concerns in long solo efforts (mental and weather being the other two). My stomach always seems to “turn” at some point, and I struggle to get stuff down. Obviously, that’s an issue in long events. I tend to recoil against “race carbs” (drinks, blocks, gels) after 4-6 hours, and even struggle to drink water. What I have found is I strongly like and need “normal foods”, so I stock my pit (in a lap event) with the following: small sandwiches on dinner rolls (ham and Swiss with mustard, or turkey and cheddar with mustard), cold pizza, potato chips, pretzels, Oreos, Snickers, Twizzlers, and de-fizzed regular Coke (really helps settle my stomach). Oh, and pickles and pickle juice. I will eat a little of the above at each pit stop, but always some Coke. After 4-6 hours, this is all I am eating, and am only drinking water on the course.

    FYI, the race carbs I prefer are Skratch electrolytes, CarboRocket Half-Evil and electrolyte and Clif Bloks. But as I said, I shut down on those after 4-6 hours, other than very periodic sips if I feel I am bonking.

    I’d be interested in any of your thoughts...thanks!


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    You may want to try (if you haven't already) Tailwind. I find that the carbohydrate's in TW isn't much different than Skratch & Roctane (both of which I like), but the big difference for me is the increase in sodium in the TW. I can tell it absorbs faster and my stomach / guts do better on it. The last few endurance races I did, Shenandoah 100 and a local 12 hour I fueled only on TW at 3 scoop per 24 oz of water per hour. I never bonked, always felt 100% and my recovery was truly much better than normal (I was actually shocked by my recovery rate for both races). I contribute that to better fueling during the race.

    For a 24 hour event I am going to run on TW for the first 6-8 hours, maybe have a Clif bar or Lara bar during that time just for something to chew on. After the 10 hour mark I am going to start rotating some simple solids in the mix every few hours to keep the digestion working at its potential, but it will be small ammounts (gotta keep on the bike as much as possible). During that time the solids will be something like white rice with soy sauce or maple syrup (depending on how I'm feeling), or a cliff bar. After the 16-18 hour mark I will keep on the rice but also start adding in some protein in the form of Ensure (I may have an ensure at the 12 hour mark too), but IMO it is important to start bringing in the protein and maybe some BCAA's mixed in with the TW at the 16-18 hour mark. After the sun comes up it is just game on and Ill eat what ever need be to keep going. I have found that I fuel very well off of Little Debbie oatmeal cream pies (**PRO TIP** you have to buy the big box as they pies are larger and have more cream in them than the regular size boxes HA!) The whole time Ill have TW mixed at 3 scoops per 24 oz going while on the bike. After the 14-16 hour mark Ill start bringing caffeine into the mix with it in either my TW or in the form of Coke (I like the small 8 oz cans the best). When I start going heavy on the food items like after 18 hours in I will probably slack off the TW some and bring in more straight water, I feel that really helps digestion and its a welcomed mental brake. Just remember to keep the food simple!!! It must be easy to digest. I do my best to stay away from solid protein like nuts, & meat. I also stay away from bread in large quantity as I feel like it can give me gas when working hard, I had rather have a broken bone in an endurance race than a bad case of gas! One other thing is have a few forms of gas relief on hand like Tums and gas ex, they can save a race! Baby wipes and extra Chamois Cream can also be a life savor at 0300 in the morning, they will make you feel like a new man! HA

    I really like the 24 hour racing and wish there was more of it close to me.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbell View Post
    You may want to try (if you haven't already) Tailwind. I find that the carbohydrate's in TW isn't much different than Skratch & Roctane (both of which I like), but the big difference for me is the increase in sodium in the TW. I can tell it absorbs faster and my stomach / guts do better on it. The last few endurance races I did, Shenandoah 100 and a local 12 hour I fueled only on TW at 3 scoop per 24 oz of water per hour. I never bonked, always felt 100% and my recovery was truly much better than normal (I was actually shocked by my recovery rate for both races). I contribute that to better fueling during the race.

    For a 24 hour event I am going to run on TW for the first 6-8 hours, maybe have a Clif bar or Lara bar during that time just for something to chew on. After the 10 hour mark I am going to start rotating some simple solids in the mix every few hours to keep the digestion working at its potential, but it will be small ammounts (gotta keep on the bike as much as possible). During that time the solids will be something like white rice with soy sauce or maple syrup (depending on how I'm feeling), or a cliff bar. After the 16-18 hour mark I will keep on the rice but also start adding in some protein in the form of Ensure (I may have an ensure at the 12 hour mark too), but IMO it is important to start bringing in the protein and maybe some BCAA's mixed in with the TW at the 16-18 hour mark. After the sun comes up it is just game on and Ill eat what ever need be to keep going. I have found that I fuel very well off of Little Debbie oatmeal cream pies (**PRO TIP** you have to buy the big box as they pies are larger and have more cream in them than the regular size boxes HA!) The whole time Ill have TW mixed at 3 scoops per 24 oz going while on the bike. After the 14-16 hour mark Ill start bringing caffeine into the mix with it in either my TW or in the form of Coke (I like the small 8 oz cans the best). When I start going heavy on the food items like after 18 hours in I will probably slack off the TW some and bring in more straight water, I feel that really helps digestion and its a welcomed mental brake. Just remember to keep the food simple!!! It must be easy to digest. I do my best to stay away from solid protein like nuts, & meat. I also stay away from bread in large quantity as I feel like it can give me gas when working hard, I had rather have a broken bone in an endurance race than a bad case of gas! One other thing is have a few forms of gas relief on hand like Tums and gas ex, they can save a race! Baby wipes and extra Chamois Cream can also be a life savor at 0300 in the morning, they will make you feel like a new man! HA

    I really like the 24 hour racing and wish there was more of it close to me.
    Thanks, man...some good stuff in here to unpack. I appreciate it. Agree re the baby wipes and Chamois Butter, and I’m digging the PRO TIP!!


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  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbell View Post
    You may want to try (if you haven't already) Tailwind. I find that the carbohydrate's in TW isn't much different than Skratch & Roctane (both of which I like), but the big difference for me is the increase in sodium in the TW. I can tell it absorbs faster and my stomach / guts do better on it. The last few endurance races I did, Shenandoah 100 and a local 12 hour I fueled only on TW at 3 scoop per 24 oz of water per hour. I never bonked, always felt 100% and my recovery was truly much better than normal (I was actually shocked by my recovery rate for both races). I contribute that to better fueling during the race.

    For a 24 hour event I am going to run on TW for the first 6-8 hours, maybe have a Clif bar or Lara bar during that time just for something to chew on. After the 10 hour mark I am going to start rotating some simple solids in the mix every few hours to keep the digestion working at its potential, but it will be small ammounts (gotta keep on the bike as much as possible). During that time the solids will be something like white rice with soy sauce or maple syrup (depending on how I'm feeling), or a cliff bar. After the 16-18 hour mark I will keep on the rice but also start adding in some protein in the form of Ensure (I may have an ensure at the 12 hour mark too), but IMO it is important to start bringing in the protein and maybe some BCAA's mixed in with the TW at the 16-18 hour mark. After the sun comes up it is just game on and Ill eat what ever need be to keep going. I have found that I fuel very well off of Little Debbie oatmeal cream pies (**PRO TIP** you have to buy the big box as they pies are larger and have more cream in them than the regular size boxes HA!) The whole time Ill have TW mixed at 3 scoops per 24 oz going while on the bike. After the 14-16 hour mark Ill start bringing caffeine into the mix with it in either my TW or in the form of Coke (I like the small 8 oz cans the best). When I start going heavy on the food items like after 18 hours in I will probably slack off the TW some and bring in more straight water, I feel that really helps digestion and its a welcomed mental brake. Just remember to keep the food simple!!! It must be easy to digest. I do my best to stay away from solid protein like nuts, & meat. I also stay away from bread in large quantity as I feel like it can give me gas when working hard, I had rather have a broken bone in an endurance race than a bad case of gas! One other thing is have a few forms of gas relief on hand like Tums and gas ex, they can save a race! Baby wipes and extra Chamois Cream can also be a life savor at 0300 in the morning, they will make you feel like a new man! HA

    I really like the 24 hour racing and wish there was more of it close to me.
    Got some Tailwind, and used it yesterday on a hard ride (Mandarin Orange). Wow, that stuff is very light, and goes down easy. Less “sweet/sticky” than Skratch or CarboRocket. I used 2 scoops in a 24-oz bottle.

    So you use 3 scoops for your events?


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  87. #87
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    Yes, usually 3. The orange is good but if you can find some try the unflavored. I like it better for the real long days, anything over 12 hours.

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    **but keep in mind when I’m mixing 3 scoops that is my TOTAL nutrition per hour.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbell View Post
    **but keep in mind when I’m mixing 3 scoops that is my TOTAL nutrition per hour.
    Roger; thanks!


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  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbell View Post
    **but keep in mind when I’m mixing 3 scoops that is my TOTAL nutrition per hour.
    Two more questions for you: Which Ensure, the regular one or the high-protein version? And where are you getting your BCAA’s from, the Ensure, or some other source? Thanks!


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    Regular ensure. And powder BCAA from your favorite supplement store. Just get a brand that doesn’t add sugar, coloring, etc. (it can get deep with the amounts of each amino acid, but Xtend I think that the name gets the proportions right)

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbell View Post
    Regular ensure. And powder BCAA from your favorite supplement store. Just get a brand that doesn’t add sugar, coloring, etc. (it can get deep with the amounts of each amino acid, but Xtend I think that the name gets the proportions right)
    Thanks again!
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    Endurance Nutrition and Hydration thread

    Another Tailwind user here.
    In summer I ride practically on TW only and only keep a few gels in my backpocket as an emergency. Never had stomachissues (longest ride 8 hours) with it.

    BUT i had some cold weather races and the liquid-only approach was not so good. Had to stop and pee a lot on both races. So when the temperature and therefore sweatrate is low, I will this season try to use TW bottles with more scoops (4-5) and Clif bars.

    Christoph Strasser uses Ensure and he rides one bottle extremely dense (if i remember correctly 1.000kcals) in training sometimes and the second bottle with water only. That way he knows how many calories he uses and drinks water as he feels.


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    Quote Originally Posted by alpi69 View Post
    Another Tailwind user here.
    In summer I ride practically on TW only and only keep a few gels in my backpocket as an emergency. Never had stomachissues (longest ride 8 hours) with it.

    BUT i had some cold weather races and the liquid-only approach was not so good. Had to stop and pee a lot on both races. So when the temperature and therefore sweatrate is low, I will this season try to use TW bottles with more scoops (4-5) and Clif bars.

    Christoph Strasser uses Ensure and he rides one bottle extremely dense (if i remember correctly 1.000kcals) in training sometimes and the second bottle with water only. That way he knows how many calories he uses and drinks water as he feels.


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    I like the idea of a concentrated bottle and the other with water. The only thing I have trouble with is it’s not as easy for me to be specific with nutrition per hour. It’s probably just me and isn’t that complicated but during a long ride/race I get behind on nutrition with the concentrated bottle method. I also can’t do gels, over a long day my gut starts to feel funky and I hate the way my mouth feels. Everyone is different so take this with a grain of salt.

    I think it’s more placebo with me keeping close track on my nutrition intake, but I did it so wrong for so long and tried to make up for it with
    training harder (not the answer BTW HA!!)

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbell View Post
    I like the idea of a concentrated bottle and the other with water. The only thing I have trouble with is it’s not as easy for me to be specific with nutrition per hour. It’s probably just me and isn’t that complicated but during a long ride/race I get behind on nutrition with the concentrated bottle method. I also can’t do gels, over a long day my gut starts to feel funky and I hate the way my mouth feels. Everyone is different so take this with a grain of salt.

    I think it’s more placebo with me keeping close track on my nutrition intake, but I did it so wrong for so long and tried to make up for it with
    training harder (not the answer BTW HA!!)
    I agree; I would get behind on my nutrition and hydration if I tried that approach. That said, are you just carrying the one bottle with 3 scoops of TW, or are you carrying a second bottle of water to augment, as necessary? The course I’m doing this weekend is a 16+ mile loop, and will take me 1:30 +/1 at solo pace. So I’m figuring the one bottle of TW with 2-3 scoops for me and one bottle of water, to make sure I can augment my hydration, if necessary. One bottle of just TW won’t be enough.


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    I have done the concentrated bottle method during an Ironman tri. Not very convenient to stop and fill new bottles. It worked fine for me. You just had to remind yourself to take a sip every 15-20 minutes and wash it down.

    But on the MTB I do hour bottles and work around that. I'll keep pre mixed bottles in my pit, or carry pouches on a self supported race. I've gotten to the point now where I almost over hydrate in races and have to stop and pee often (hard to pee while rolling in MTB...). But I prefer over to under hydration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewalk View Post
    I have done the concentrated bottle method during an Ironman tri. Not very convenient to stop and fill new bottles. It worked fine for me. You just had to remind yourself to take a sip every 15-20 minutes and wash it down.

    But on the MTB I do hour bottles and work around that. I'll keep pre mixed bottles in my pit, or carry pouches on a self supported race. I've gotten to the point now where I almost over hydrate in races and have to stop and pee often (hard to pee while rolling in MTB...). But I prefer over to under hydration.
    I do this exactly, minimize time off the bike as much as possible. I am also trying to work on bladder control, “holding it” longer so I have to pee less often during a race. Personally if I take in a lot of liquid I get rid of a lot of liquid, so there is that. But I’ll take a few pee brakes over cramping from lack of proper nutrition any day.

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    If you are peeing a lot back off the sodium some. You want to absorb as much as you can not pee it out because your kidneys are flushing excess sodium.


    Waltaz, so you are doing old pueblo, i thought it was required to drink beer and eat bacon only lol. I would eat solid foods since it wont be that hot.


    Does Tailwind have maltodextrin?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbell View Post
    I do this exactly, minimize time off the bike as much as possible. I am also trying to work on bladder control, “holding it” longer so I have to pee less often during a race. Personally if I take in a lot of liquid I get rid of a lot of liquid, so there is that. But I’ll take a few pee brakes over cramping from lack of proper nutrition any day.
    You could be over-hydrating, which is just as bad as under-hydrating. If you are peeing more than normal you are hydrating is to much. Lot's of racers overhydrate and consume more calories than is needed and this does hinder performance.

    Cramping is not always caused by lack of nutrients. Most are neuromusclular crams and no amount of hydration is going to help you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by irishpitbull View Post
    You could be over-hydrating, which is just as bad as under-hydrating. If you are peeing more than normal you are hydrating is to much. Lot's of racers overhydrate and consume more calories than is needed and this does hinder performance.

    Cramping is not always caused by lack of nutrients. Most are neuromusclular crams and no amount of hydration is going to help you.

    https://www.cycling-inform.com/what-...s-when-cycling
    I was typing the same thing Steve as you posted. You can drown yourself basically and cause much bigger issues than if you are a little dehydrated. Ive never peed in a race, that would be a bad sign to me. That my body is trying to get rid of fluids that it desperately needs to absorb. Plain water wont get absorbed in a race, just pee it out. So chasing tailwind with plain water is absolutely counterproductive. Its just filling your body with useless water it needs to excrete.

    There isnt a formula in the world that will stop you from becoming slightly dehydrated, you should never be able to replace as much as you sweat out, that would have you drinking gallons at a time and peeing everywhere and riding slow.

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