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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Waltaz, so you are doing old pueblo, i thought it was required to drink beer and eat bacon only lol. I would eat solid foods since it wont be that hot.
    LOL...sure am! And Iíve done every variation of beer, whiskey, bacon, etc, etc, for races there. Took it kind of seriously a few years ago, and this year, will be pushing hard for a PR. I have never been real thoughtful about my hydration and nutrition, and am trying to think it through and plan, for a change. The beer and bacon, etc, will come AFTER, this year!


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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishpitbull View Post
    You could be over-hydrating, which is just as bad as under-hydrating. If you are peeing more than normal you are hydrating is to much. Lot's of racers overhydrate and consume more calories than is needed and this does hinder performance.
    This is a good reminder; I think I have tended to, A. Take too much water with me, particularly on lap races, and B. Eat WAY too much...donít want to bonk, right? Well, I always end up with gut issues, and feeling bloated. So trying to dial it back, and in.

    Thanks a ton to everyone! I sincerely appreciate the beta.


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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Plain water wont get absorbed in a race, just pee it out. So chasing tailwind with plain water is absolutely counterproductive. Its just filling your body with useless water it needs to excrete.
    Jeezus, seriously? Then, per what I just posted, I have always definitely WAY over-hydrated.

    That said, is one 25-oz bottle of 2-3 scoops of TW enough for a 1:30 lap? Feels light to me. Assuming plain water wonít get absorbed, maybe carry a second 21-oz bottle with 2 scoops of TW?


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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    Jeezus, seriously? Then, per what I just posted, I have always definitely WAY over-hydrated.

    That said, is one 25-oz bottle of 2-3 scoops of TW enough for a 1:30 lap? Feels light to me. Assuming plain water wonít get absorbed, maybe carry a second 21-oz bottle with 2 scoops of TW?


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    The classic "depends" response.

    This last weekend I did a 4 hour race and I brought 3 bottles. I knew I was risking it, but I wanted to race light and fast for such a short race. I figured last race dehydration would happen, but I wouldn't suffer much. The weather was an average of 70 and no humidity. So I wasn't sweating uncontrollably (I was still at 95% of my HR threshold average). So the two scoops of Hammer Perpetuem per bottle spread out over about 3.5 hours I ran dry at the beginning of the last lap) was enough to squeak by on without losing performance in those conditions.

    I most certainly have to add additional water on my 100+ degree races though. About 1 bottle of my mix and 1 bottle of water per 45-60 minutes.

    I never suffer from cramps from nutrition as mentioned below. I do get them from high exertion though. I started cramping 10 minutes from the finish on that 4 hour race, which is good timing as it means I put in a proper level of effort. I was able to soft pedal a couple of minutes, massage it out, then hammer the last bit of the race (I got passed into the finish loop, and sprinted for the position back). On my mid summer 8 hour last year I started to cramp 30 minutes from my last lap. I had a salty drink that I think helped me mentally and some soft pedaling, finished with something like 8 seconds to spare.

    While it is difficult, it is possible to over hydrate. But what is easy to do is take in too many calories. On my high hydration races (like my last 12 hour) I was probably peeing every hour or two. But I was preparing for temps to be about 100 and all exposed. It's easy to cut back on water if the weather turns good, it's hard to get that hydration back.



    Quote Originally Posted by irishpitbull View Post
    You could be over-hydrating, which is just as bad as under-hydrating. If you are peeing more than normal you are hydrating is to much. Lot's of racers overhydrate and consume more calories than is needed and this does hinder performance.

    Cramping is not always caused by lack of nutrients. Most are neuromusclular crams and no amount of hydration is going to help you.

    https://www.cycling-inform.com/what-...s-when-cycling

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    Jeezus, seriously? Then, per what I just posted, I have always definitely WAY over-hydrated.

    That said, is one 25-oz bottle of 2-3 scoops of TW enough for a 1:30 lap? Feels light to me. Assuming plain water wonít get absorbed, maybe carry a second 21-oz bottle with 2 scoops of TW?


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    I dont believe in any of those pre made formulas personally and have no experience with them. I only drink water with Skratch, and eat real food, and some clif bloks/bars if i need something instant before or after a huge effort.

    The body is only capable of absorbing so much water and nutrition no matter how much you shove in there. You can never equally replace what you lose as fast as you lose it. Drinking a bunch of water based on certain time or schedule is not the way to go. People really really need to trial and error their own body. Practice getting dehydrated and hungry. Some days you need more food and less water and some days you need more water and less food. So saying im using a bottle with x amount of calories in it and drinking at x time and y amount, thats overthinking and complicating things imo. You definitely need electrolytes in your water, plain water is useless in a race. Then you need around 90-100 grams of carbs per hour/hr.5, the right amount of sodium for your body and the conditions, totaling about 200-400 calories per hour. 1 gram of carbs is 4 calories.

    If i was racing old pueblo i would use one bottle of skratch water and a few dates with salt and maple butter towards the end of each lap which equal apx 90gm carbs, sodium is depending on how hot it is and how much i sprinkle on there based on that. If its hot ill use more, mild less. The sodium is to actually absorb whatever you put in your body. A lot of people dont absorb all that shit they pile in because their stomach closed off a long time ago when it ran out of sdoium from sweating it out. The skratch has electrolytes and sodium so its absorbed. Then your nutrition needs sodium to absorb. In a mix drink thing is your body absorbing the nutritional part of the mix or the water? I dont understand how these formulas work. I damn sure know you don't need two bottles of it for 1.5hrs of riding on a super flat trail at endurance pace. Even 400 calories a lap seems high to me. I would just drink my electrolyte water and eat/drink bout 200 calories as you approach the powerline before sassy and then after the lap is over slam the rest of your tailwind/eat another 200 calories. I would do the same thing every lap until i was done. That has you eating at about 65min and 95min of each lap. After 2 laps i would eat an additional 300 calories per lap by eating a little bit before the bitches/in the pits before, and at the whisky tree.

    So, two bottles, one electro water and one your mix. Drink the water every 15 minutes, the mix half the bottle around the hr mark, the rest at the approach to the rock drop. Have about 150 calories in the pits not from tailwind and some coconut water, grab two new bottles, head out, drink electro water on same schedule whole time. I would take that tailwind at the same time, and add 150 calories not from tailwind per lap after the first alomg with tailwind. Im pretty sure you are supposed to use only tailwind so im probably talking nonsense but im trying to just give you an idea of how much you may need. Around 400 calories per lap, 100gms of carbs, enough sodium to absorb food and drink, and water with electrolytes. If a bottle of tailwind is 400 calories just drink it in 4 pulls, 1/4 of a bottle at a time. And have a big jug of it made in the pits so you can drink 150 calories worth in the pits everytime instead of real food. I just cant imagine drinking a smoothie and thats it for 24hrs. You need fiber and macronutrients also. It may have all that, not sure.

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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    I dont believe in any of those pre made formulas personally and have no experience with them. I only drink water with Skratch, and eat real food, and some clif bloks/bars if i need something instant before or after a huge effort.

    The body is only capable of absorbing so much water and nutrition no matter how much you shove in there. You can never equally replace what you lose as fast as you lose it. Drinking a bunch of water based on certain time or schedule is not the way to go. People really really need to trial and error their own body. Practice getting dehydrated and hungry. Some days you need more food and less water and some days you need more water and less food. So saying im using a bottle with x amount of calories in it and drinking at x time and y amount, thats overthinking and complicating things imo. You definitely need electrolytes in your water, plain water is useless in a race. Then you need around 90-100 grams of carbs per hour/hr.5, the right amount of sodium for your body and the conditions, totaling about 200-400 calories per hour. 1 gram of carbs is 4 calories.

    If i was racing old pueblo i would use one bottle of skratch water and a few dates with salt and maple butter towards the end of each lap which equal apx 90gm carbs, sodium is depending on how hot it is and how much i sprinkle on there based on that. If its hot ill use more, mild less. The sodium is to actually absorb whatever you put in your body. A lot of people dont absorb all that shit they pile in because their stomach closed off a long time ago when it ran out of sdoium from sweating it out. The skratch has electrolytes and sodium so its absorbed. Then your nutrition needs sodium to absorb. In a mix drink thing is your body absorbing the nutritional part of the mix or the water? I dont understand how these formulas work. I damn sure know you don't need two bottles of it for 1.5hrs of riding on a super flat trail at endurance pace. Even 400 calories a lap seems high to me. I would just drink my electrolyte water and eat/drink bout 200 calories as you approach the powerline before sassy and then after the lap is over slam the rest of your tailwind/eat another 200 calories. I would do the same thing every lap until i was done. That has you eating at about 65min and 95min of each lap. After 2 laps i would eat an additional 300 calories per lap by eating a little bit before the bitches/in the pits before, and at the whisky tree.

    So, two bottles, one electro water and one your mix. Drink the water every 15 minutes, the mix half the bottle around the hr mark, the rest at the approach to the rock drop. Have about 150 calories in the pits not from tailwind and some coconut water, grab two new bottles, head out, drink electro water on same schedule whole time. I would take that tailwind at the same time, and add 150 calories not from tailwind per lap after the first alomg with tailwind. Im pretty sure you are supposed to use only tailwind so im probably talking nonsense but im trying to just give you an idea of how much you may need. Around 400 calories per lap, 100gms of carbs, enough sodium to absorb food and drink, and water with electrolytes. If a bottle of tailwind is 400 calories just drink it in 4 pulls, 1/4 of a bottle at a time. And have a big jug of it made in the pits so you can drink 150 calories worth in the pits everytime instead of real food. I just cant imagine drinking a smoothie and thats it for 24hrs. You need fiber and macronutrients also. It may have all that, not sure.

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    Thanks for the incredibly detailed response...I appreciate it! Nice that you know the course very well. This will be my 5th solo SS effort at OP, and I've gotten better each time at managing myself, but I'm putting more thought into it this time because I'm shooting for a strong PR, which will require doing better in multiple areas, including hydration and nutrition.

    I plan on incorporating elements of everything that has been discussed, along with what I have come to know and like, as I don't want to try a whole new approach for the race. I've always worn a pack and hydration bladder (with water), but have recently switched to bottles only, so I want to make sure I maximize what I carry each lap. I had no idea that water was so ineffective (maybe that's why my stomach always shuts off after 4-6 hours). I happen to use and like Skratch, so I will use that in one bottle for my electrolytes, and do one bottle of Tailwind, with probably 2-3 scoops/200-300 calories. I know all of the drinking spots, as you describe, and when I hit my pit, I'll reload the same combo, and snack on some "real food".

    I realize in the past that I have taken in way too much real food, and water, for that matter. So I'll limit it to 150-200 calories at each pit stop (solid food, not TW). I happen to like treats in my pit, and like fun sized Snickers, Twizzlers, pickles, potato chips, and bits of ham and cheese or turkey and cheese small sandwiches. Basically, whatever of the buffet I set out I feel like noshing on for a moment, but I'll keep it less than in the past. I also really like drinking some "de-fizzed" regular Coke, which settles my stomach, and gives me some sugar and caffeine.

    So to net it out:
    - Per lap:
    - 1 bottle of Skratch (2 scoops) - 120 cal
    - 1 bottle of Tailwind (2-3 scoops) - 200-300 cal
    - maybe some bloks or piece of a bar occasionally to munch on

    Per pit stop:
    - Pickles/pickle juice
    - 150-200 cal of "real food" based on preference
    - Some "de-fizzed" regular Coke

    Most important to me, don't overdrink and overeat. That's what the post-race is for...LOL.

    Thanks again,

    Walt
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    Thanks for the incredibly detailed response...I appreciate it! Nice that you know the course very well. This will be my 5th solo SS effort at OP, and I've gotten better each time at managing myself, but I'm putting more thought into it this time because I'm shooting for a strong PR, which will require doing better in multiple areas, including hydration and nutrition.

    I plan on incorporating elements of everything that has been discussed, along with what I have come to know and like, as I don't want to try a whole new approach for the race. I've always worn a pack and hydration bladder (with water), but have recently switched to bottles only, so I want to make sure I maximize what I carry each lap. I had no idea that water was so ineffective (maybe that's why my stomach always shuts off after 4-6 hours). I happen to use and like Skratch, so I will use that in one bottle for my electrolytes, and do one bottle of Tailwind, with probably 2-3 scoops/200-300 calories. I know all of the drinking spots, as you describe, and when I hit my pit, I'll reload the same combo, and snack on some "real food".

    I realize in the past that I have taken in way too much real food, and water, for that matter. So I'll limit it to 150-200 calories at each pit stop (solid food, not TW). I happen to like treats in my pit, and like fun sized Snickers, Twizzlers, pickles, potato chips, and bits of ham and cheese or turkey and cheese small sandwiches. Basically, whatever of the buffet I set out I feel like noshing on for a moment, but I'll keep it less than in the past. I also really like drinking some "de-fizzed" regular Coke, which settles my stomach, and gives me some sugar and caffeine.

    So to net it out:
    - Per lap:
    - 1 bottle of Skratch (2 scoops) - 120 cal
    - 1 bottle of Tailwind (2-3 scoops) - 200-300 cal
    - maybe some bloks or piece of a bar occasionally to munch on

    Per pit stop:
    - Pickles/pickle juice
    - 150-200 cal of "real food" based on preference
    - Some "de-fizzed" regular Coke

    Most important to me, don't overdrink and overeat. That's what the post-race is for...LOL.

    Thanks again,

    Walt
    Im pretty sure that you are supposed to only take tailwind if you start taking, adding in other real food may cause you issues. Thats why i just do skratch and real food because i could never only use tailwind or infinit and nothing else and pretty sure for it to be 100pct effective you need to strictly consume that. From start to finish, just a powder mixed with water, they claim it is skratch and food in one. Ill never know.

    If you take 200-300 calories in mix and then bloks or bars as you say maybe here and there, you will be at 5-600 calories per 1.5 which is too much for endurance pace i believe. Thats just me. I would say go all mix or no mix and food and skratch.

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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Im pretty sure that you are supposed to only take tailwind if you start taking, adding in other real food may cause you issues. Thats why i just do skratch and real food because i could never only use tailwind or infinit and nothing else and pretty sure for it to be 100pct effective you need to strictly consume that. From start to finish, just a powder mixed with water, they claim it is skratch and food in one. Ill never know.

    If you take 200-300 calories in mix and then bloks or bars as you say maybe here and there, you will be at 5-600 calories per 1.5 which is too much for endurance pace i believe. Thats just me. I would say go all mix or no mix and food and skratch.

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    Good points, and I was wondering that about the Tailwind. As it turns out, they are now one of Epic's sponsors for the whole series, and will be at Old Pueblo. I plan on chatting them up and adjusting accordingly.

    And you're right about that being too much per 1.5, which has been my main problem in the past - you tend to think I'M GOING TO BE RIDING FOR SO LONG I BETTER EAT A SHIT TON OF FOOD!!! I will watch out for that. I don't mind riding slightly hungry; I far prefer it over full or bloated.
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  9. #109
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    I agree that you can take in too many calories per hour and that will take away from your performance some. I also am of the opinion that the less work you body has to do to digest and absorb the nutrient the better. That is why I stick with the liquid nutrition, especially now after switching to Tailwind this past season. Before I was using Skratch, Roctane, or Carbo Rocket (not all at the same event) and trying to hit the 300 calories, and 80-90 grams of carbohydrates per hour, but I was still falling short in my nutrition and having to deal with mild cramps toward the end of races. I would have to supplement with some solids and tried gels but did not like them.

    The first race on Tailwind was an eye opener, no cramps and good energy through the whole race. The shortest race I do is a 100K with a lot of climbing up to solo 24 hour races. I am not interested in trying a 24 hour only on TW, but 12 hour and under it is perfect for me. I think the big difference in TW and the others I have tried is the increased amount of sodium (like 250mg - 300mg more per 80g of carbs). At first I was concerned about the increase but after researching it I found that the theory is the sodium helps the absorption of the carbs. After testing it quite a bit I honestly feel like I am better fueled on the TW.

    I am in no way trying to push Tailwind as a product, or liquid nutrition as the best fueling method. I am just offering up what I have found that works for me. Different strokes for different folks...

    I have really enjoyed this discussion, lots of great info for me to think about. Good stuff guys!

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbell View Post
    I agree that you can take in too many calories per hour and that will take away from your performance some. I also am of the opinion that the less work you body has to do to digest and absorb the nutrient the better. That is why I stick with the liquid nutrition, especially now after switching to Tailwind this past season. Before I was using Skratch, Roctane, or Carbo Rocket (not all at the same event) and trying to hit the 300 calories, and 80-90 grams of carbohydrates per hour, but I was still falling short in my nutrition and having to deal with mild cramps toward the end of races. I would have to supplement with some solids and tried gels but did not like them.

    The first race on Tailwind was an eye opener, no cramps and good energy through the whole race. The shortest race I do is a 100K with a lot of climbing up to solo 24 hour races. I am not interested in trying a 24 hour only on TW, but 12 hour and under it is perfect for me. I think the big difference in TW and the others I have tried is the increased amount of sodium (like 250mg - 300mg more per 80g of carbs). At first I was concerned about the increase but after researching it I found that the theory is the sodium helps the absorption of the carbs. After testing it quite a bit I honestly feel like I am better fueled on the TW.

    I am in no way trying to push Tailwind as a product, or liquid nutrition as the best fueling method. I am just offering up what I have found that works for me. Different strokes for different folks...

    I have really enjoyed this discussion, lots of great info for me to think about. Good stuff guys!
    Great feedback, and I am eager to use Tailwind as a key component of my fueling strategy for this race.

    I have also really enjoyed this discussion, and have learned a TON! I appreciate the thought and input you guys have provided; I know it is hard-won knowledge, and is invaluable for me. Thanks again!


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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Im pretty sure that you are supposed to only take tailwind if you start taking, adding in other real food may cause you issues. <snip>
    There is no requirement that you use Tailwind exclusively if you are using Tailwind. You do need to go in with a strategy though and not switch your plan mid-race. For example, if you started a race planning on 300cal/hr and mixed your TW to meet that need, then suddenly start taking in gel's, one of three things will happen. Either you won't take on enough water, you'll take on too many calories, or both. To obsorb a gel, you need a shockingly large amount of water. For me, I've screwed up a race by adding caffeinated Gu to my plan in addition to the 275cal/hr TW. I drank less TW so my total carb intake per hour was still around 275cal, but that meant less water to assist with absorbing the calories. Carbs without enough water means a gut bomb for me. Now I typically carry an empty bottle on the bike during a race and if my water needs push me above my caloric needs, I fill it up at an aid station and bump my water intake. I also mix my TW a little lighter now, especially on hot races, and supplement my calories with Gu along with a bottle of straight water. ROT for me and Gu is 10oz of straight water/gu/30min. That's my contingency plan though, I still try to get 100% of my caloric and hydration needs with TW. Nice to have some flexibility though in case things don't go quite to plan.

  12. #112
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    I use Tailwind exclusively for any rides from 1 hour to 6. The stuff is great. Did a 6-hour race last year on just TW and felt good the whole time, slightly hungry but fully hydrated and energized. No cramps or instant off to on like you sometimes get with crack, er gels. Just a consistent feeling of good legs and energy.
    You can't buy happiness. But you can buy a bike. And that's pretty close.

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    Timely article....
    https://blog.skratchlabs.com/blog/hy...e-and-practice


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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Timely article....
    https://blog.skratchlabs.com/blog/hy...e-and-practice


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    Thanks for sharing this!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BmanInTheD View Post
    I use Tailwind exclusively for any rides from 1 hour to 6. The stuff is great. Did a 6-hour race last year on just TW and felt good the whole time, slightly hungry but fully hydrated and energized. No cramps or instant off to on like you sometimes get with crack, er gels. Just a consistent feeling of good legs and energy.
    When you say exclusively, do you mean nothing went in your body excpet a liquid made up of tailwind and water. No separate water, or water/electrolyte mixes? No munching at aid stations or anything?






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  16. #116
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    Has anybody messed with a product called..

    EFS Liquid shot. Its 400 calories per serving.

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    I have heard of them but don't have any 1st hand experience. I have tried using similarly packaged products (smaller than your hand "gel flask") and while convenient and easy to pack I have trouble opening and closing the lids and holding on to them while on the trail. I have tried flip top and twist top design lids and both have their drawbacks for me, probably just me. I have used them on the road bike or smooth sections of trail and they are fine, but when out in the rough tight single track they are troublesome.

    I do like the ingredients in the Liquid Shot, good to see the addition of BCAA! I personally would like a little more sodium, but that is completely anecdotal. I may have to order some and give them a shot...

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Wow...I wish I had read that before Old Pueblo this past weekend.

    I completely botched my hydration and nutrition, trying the Tailwind-only bottle approach, and bonked horribly at the end of Lap 7 (at 115 miles or so). Struggled with nausea and no energy on Lap 8, and pulled the plug at 2 am after 131 miles.

    I got behind early on my calories and electrolytes, had trouble getting them down after 4-5 hours, and was never able to make it up. I actually cramped at the beginning of Lap 3 (at the top of Bitch #1), after about 35 miles total, and was like, WTF? But reading that article, it's clear why...

    I've got no beef with Tailwind, as I like it. But I cannot do a "heavy" drink only. I need a light mix and real food throughout. Lesson learned. I overthought it. It sucks, though, because I was riding strong and was well ahead of my goal pace.
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