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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Waltaz, so you are doing old pueblo, i thought it was required to drink beer and eat bacon only lol. I would eat solid foods since it wont be that hot.
    LOL...sure am! And I’ve done every variation of beer, whiskey, bacon, etc, etc, for races there. Took it kind of seriously a few years ago, and this year, will be pushing hard for a PR. I have never been real thoughtful about my hydration and nutrition, and am trying to think it through and plan, for a change. The beer and bacon, etc, will come AFTER, this year!


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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishpitbull View Post
    You could be over-hydrating, which is just as bad as under-hydrating. If you are peeing more than normal you are hydrating is to much. Lot's of racers overhydrate and consume more calories than is needed and this does hinder performance.
    This is a good reminder; I think I have tended to, A. Take too much water with me, particularly on lap races, and B. Eat WAY too much...don’t want to bonk, right? Well, I always end up with gut issues, and feeling bloated. So trying to dial it back, and in.

    Thanks a ton to everyone! I sincerely appreciate the beta.


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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Plain water wont get absorbed in a race, just pee it out. So chasing tailwind with plain water is absolutely counterproductive. Its just filling your body with useless water it needs to excrete.
    Jeezus, seriously? Then, per what I just posted, I have always definitely WAY over-hydrated.

    That said, is one 25-oz bottle of 2-3 scoops of TW enough for a 1:30 lap? Feels light to me. Assuming plain water won’t get absorbed, maybe carry a second 21-oz bottle with 2 scoops of TW?


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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    Jeezus, seriously? Then, per what I just posted, I have always definitely WAY over-hydrated.

    That said, is one 25-oz bottle of 2-3 scoops of TW enough for a 1:30 lap? Feels light to me. Assuming plain water won’t get absorbed, maybe carry a second 21-oz bottle with 2 scoops of TW?


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    The classic "depends" response.

    This last weekend I did a 4 hour race and I brought 3 bottles. I knew I was risking it, but I wanted to race light and fast for such a short race. I figured last race dehydration would happen, but I wouldn't suffer much. The weather was an average of 70 and no humidity. So I wasn't sweating uncontrollably (I was still at 95% of my HR threshold average). So the two scoops of Hammer Perpetuem per bottle spread out over about 3.5 hours I ran dry at the beginning of the last lap) was enough to squeak by on without losing performance in those conditions.

    I most certainly have to add additional water on my 100+ degree races though. About 1 bottle of my mix and 1 bottle of water per 45-60 minutes.

    I never suffer from cramps from nutrition as mentioned below. I do get them from high exertion though. I started cramping 10 minutes from the finish on that 4 hour race, which is good timing as it means I put in a proper level of effort. I was able to soft pedal a couple of minutes, massage it out, then hammer the last bit of the race (I got passed into the finish loop, and sprinted for the position back). On my mid summer 8 hour last year I started to cramp 30 minutes from my last lap. I had a salty drink that I think helped me mentally and some soft pedaling, finished with something like 8 seconds to spare.

    While it is difficult, it is possible to over hydrate. But what is easy to do is take in too many calories. On my high hydration races (like my last 12 hour) I was probably peeing every hour or two. But I was preparing for temps to be about 100 and all exposed. It's easy to cut back on water if the weather turns good, it's hard to get that hydration back.



    Quote Originally Posted by irishpitbull View Post
    You could be over-hydrating, which is just as bad as under-hydrating. If you are peeing more than normal you are hydrating is to much. Lot's of racers overhydrate and consume more calories than is needed and this does hinder performance.

    Cramping is not always caused by lack of nutrients. Most are neuromusclular crams and no amount of hydration is going to help you.

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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    Jeezus, seriously? Then, per what I just posted, I have always definitely WAY over-hydrated.

    That said, is one 25-oz bottle of 2-3 scoops of TW enough for a 1:30 lap? Feels light to me. Assuming plain water won’t get absorbed, maybe carry a second 21-oz bottle with 2 scoops of TW?


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    I dont believe in any of those pre made formulas personally and have no experience with them. I only drink water with Skratch, and eat real food, and some clif bloks/bars if i need something instant before or after a huge effort.

    The body is only capable of absorbing so much water and nutrition no matter how much you shove in there. You can never equally replace what you lose as fast as you lose it. Drinking a bunch of water based on certain time or schedule is not the way to go. People really really need to trial and error their own body. Practice getting dehydrated and hungry. Some days you need more food and less water and some days you need more water and less food. So saying im using a bottle with x amount of calories in it and drinking at x time and y amount, thats overthinking and complicating things imo. You definitely need electrolytes in your water, plain water is useless in a race. Then you need around 90-100 grams of carbs per hour/hr.5, the right amount of sodium for your body and the conditions, totaling about 200-400 calories per hour. 1 gram of carbs is 4 calories.

    If i was racing old pueblo i would use one bottle of skratch water and a few dates with salt and maple butter towards the end of each lap which equal apx 90gm carbs, sodium is depending on how hot it is and how much i sprinkle on there based on that. If its hot ill use more, mild less. The sodium is to actually absorb whatever you put in your body. A lot of people dont absorb all that shit they pile in because their stomach closed off a long time ago when it ran out of sdoium from sweating it out. The skratch has electrolytes and sodium so its absorbed. Then your nutrition needs sodium to absorb. In a mix drink thing is your body absorbing the nutritional part of the mix or the water? I dont understand how these formulas work. I damn sure know you don't need two bottles of it for 1.5hrs of riding on a super flat trail at endurance pace. Even 400 calories a lap seems high to me. I would just drink my electrolyte water and eat/drink bout 200 calories as you approach the powerline before sassy and then after the lap is over slam the rest of your tailwind/eat another 200 calories. I would do the same thing every lap until i was done. That has you eating at about 65min and 95min of each lap. After 2 laps i would eat an additional 300 calories per lap by eating a little bit before the bitches/in the pits before, and at the whisky tree.

    So, two bottles, one electro water and one your mix. Drink the water every 15 minutes, the mix half the bottle around the hr mark, the rest at the approach to the rock drop. Have about 150 calories in the pits not from tailwind and some coconut water, grab two new bottles, head out, drink electro water on same schedule whole time. I would take that tailwind at the same time, and add 150 calories not from tailwind per lap after the first alomg with tailwind. Im pretty sure you are supposed to use only tailwind so im probably talking nonsense but im trying to just give you an idea of how much you may need. Around 400 calories per lap, 100gms of carbs, enough sodium to absorb food and drink, and water with electrolytes. If a bottle of tailwind is 400 calories just drink it in 4 pulls, 1/4 of a bottle at a time. And have a big jug of it made in the pits so you can drink 150 calories worth in the pits everytime instead of real food. I just cant imagine drinking a smoothie and thats it for 24hrs. You need fiber and macronutrients also. It may have all that, not sure.

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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    I dont believe in any of those pre made formulas personally and have no experience with them. I only drink water with Skratch, and eat real food, and some clif bloks/bars if i need something instant before or after a huge effort.

    The body is only capable of absorbing so much water and nutrition no matter how much you shove in there. You can never equally replace what you lose as fast as you lose it. Drinking a bunch of water based on certain time or schedule is not the way to go. People really really need to trial and error their own body. Practice getting dehydrated and hungry. Some days you need more food and less water and some days you need more water and less food. So saying im using a bottle with x amount of calories in it and drinking at x time and y amount, thats overthinking and complicating things imo. You definitely need electrolytes in your water, plain water is useless in a race. Then you need around 90-100 grams of carbs per hour/hr.5, the right amount of sodium for your body and the conditions, totaling about 200-400 calories per hour. 1 gram of carbs is 4 calories.

    If i was racing old pueblo i would use one bottle of skratch water and a few dates with salt and maple butter towards the end of each lap which equal apx 90gm carbs, sodium is depending on how hot it is and how much i sprinkle on there based on that. If its hot ill use more, mild less. The sodium is to actually absorb whatever you put in your body. A lot of people dont absorb all that shit they pile in because their stomach closed off a long time ago when it ran out of sdoium from sweating it out. The skratch has electrolytes and sodium so its absorbed. Then your nutrition needs sodium to absorb. In a mix drink thing is your body absorbing the nutritional part of the mix or the water? I dont understand how these formulas work. I damn sure know you don't need two bottles of it for 1.5hrs of riding on a super flat trail at endurance pace. Even 400 calories a lap seems high to me. I would just drink my electrolyte water and eat/drink bout 200 calories as you approach the powerline before sassy and then after the lap is over slam the rest of your tailwind/eat another 200 calories. I would do the same thing every lap until i was done. That has you eating at about 65min and 95min of each lap. After 2 laps i would eat an additional 300 calories per lap by eating a little bit before the bitches/in the pits before, and at the whisky tree.

    So, two bottles, one electro water and one your mix. Drink the water every 15 minutes, the mix half the bottle around the hr mark, the rest at the approach to the rock drop. Have about 150 calories in the pits not from tailwind and some coconut water, grab two new bottles, head out, drink electro water on same schedule whole time. I would take that tailwind at the same time, and add 150 calories not from tailwind per lap after the first alomg with tailwind. Im pretty sure you are supposed to use only tailwind so im probably talking nonsense but im trying to just give you an idea of how much you may need. Around 400 calories per lap, 100gms of carbs, enough sodium to absorb food and drink, and water with electrolytes. If a bottle of tailwind is 400 calories just drink it in 4 pulls, 1/4 of a bottle at a time. And have a big jug of it made in the pits so you can drink 150 calories worth in the pits everytime instead of real food. I just cant imagine drinking a smoothie and thats it for 24hrs. You need fiber and macronutrients also. It may have all that, not sure.

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    Thanks for the incredibly detailed response...I appreciate it! Nice that you know the course very well. This will be my 5th solo SS effort at OP, and I've gotten better each time at managing myself, but I'm putting more thought into it this time because I'm shooting for a strong PR, which will require doing better in multiple areas, including hydration and nutrition.

    I plan on incorporating elements of everything that has been discussed, along with what I have come to know and like, as I don't want to try a whole new approach for the race. I've always worn a pack and hydration bladder (with water), but have recently switched to bottles only, so I want to make sure I maximize what I carry each lap. I had no idea that water was so ineffective (maybe that's why my stomach always shuts off after 4-6 hours). I happen to use and like Skratch, so I will use that in one bottle for my electrolytes, and do one bottle of Tailwind, with probably 2-3 scoops/200-300 calories. I know all of the drinking spots, as you describe, and when I hit my pit, I'll reload the same combo, and snack on some "real food".

    I realize in the past that I have taken in way too much real food, and water, for that matter. So I'll limit it to 150-200 calories at each pit stop (solid food, not TW). I happen to like treats in my pit, and like fun sized Snickers, Twizzlers, pickles, potato chips, and bits of ham and cheese or turkey and cheese small sandwiches. Basically, whatever of the buffet I set out I feel like noshing on for a moment, but I'll keep it less than in the past. I also really like drinking some "de-fizzed" regular Coke, which settles my stomach, and gives me some sugar and caffeine.

    So to net it out:
    - Per lap:
    - 1 bottle of Skratch (2 scoops) - 120 cal
    - 1 bottle of Tailwind (2-3 scoops) - 200-300 cal
    - maybe some bloks or piece of a bar occasionally to munch on

    Per pit stop:
    - Pickles/pickle juice
    - 150-200 cal of "real food" based on preference
    - Some "de-fizzed" regular Coke

    Most important to me, don't overdrink and overeat. That's what the post-race is for...LOL.

    Thanks again,

    Walt
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    Thanks for the incredibly detailed response...I appreciate it! Nice that you know the course very well. This will be my 5th solo SS effort at OP, and I've gotten better each time at managing myself, but I'm putting more thought into it this time because I'm shooting for a strong PR, which will require doing better in multiple areas, including hydration and nutrition.

    I plan on incorporating elements of everything that has been discussed, along with what I have come to know and like, as I don't want to try a whole new approach for the race. I've always worn a pack and hydration bladder (with water), but have recently switched to bottles only, so I want to make sure I maximize what I carry each lap. I had no idea that water was so ineffective (maybe that's why my stomach always shuts off after 4-6 hours). I happen to use and like Skratch, so I will use that in one bottle for my electrolytes, and do one bottle of Tailwind, with probably 2-3 scoops/200-300 calories. I know all of the drinking spots, as you describe, and when I hit my pit, I'll reload the same combo, and snack on some "real food".

    I realize in the past that I have taken in way too much real food, and water, for that matter. So I'll limit it to 150-200 calories at each pit stop (solid food, not TW). I happen to like treats in my pit, and like fun sized Snickers, Twizzlers, pickles, potato chips, and bits of ham and cheese or turkey and cheese small sandwiches. Basically, whatever of the buffet I set out I feel like noshing on for a moment, but I'll keep it less than in the past. I also really like drinking some "de-fizzed" regular Coke, which settles my stomach, and gives me some sugar and caffeine.

    So to net it out:
    - Per lap:
    - 1 bottle of Skratch (2 scoops) - 120 cal
    - 1 bottle of Tailwind (2-3 scoops) - 200-300 cal
    - maybe some bloks or piece of a bar occasionally to munch on

    Per pit stop:
    - Pickles/pickle juice
    - 150-200 cal of "real food" based on preference
    - Some "de-fizzed" regular Coke

    Most important to me, don't overdrink and overeat. That's what the post-race is for...LOL.

    Thanks again,

    Walt
    Im pretty sure that you are supposed to only take tailwind if you start taking, adding in other real food may cause you issues. Thats why i just do skratch and real food because i could never only use tailwind or infinit and nothing else and pretty sure for it to be 100pct effective you need to strictly consume that. From start to finish, just a powder mixed with water, they claim it is skratch and food in one. Ill never know.

    If you take 200-300 calories in mix and then bloks or bars as you say maybe here and there, you will be at 5-600 calories per 1.5 which is too much for endurance pace i believe. Thats just me. I would say go all mix or no mix and food and skratch.

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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Im pretty sure that you are supposed to only take tailwind if you start taking, adding in other real food may cause you issues. Thats why i just do skratch and real food because i could never only use tailwind or infinit and nothing else and pretty sure for it to be 100pct effective you need to strictly consume that. From start to finish, just a powder mixed with water, they claim it is skratch and food in one. Ill never know.

    If you take 200-300 calories in mix and then bloks or bars as you say maybe here and there, you will be at 5-600 calories per 1.5 which is too much for endurance pace i believe. Thats just me. I would say go all mix or no mix and food and skratch.

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    Good points, and I was wondering that about the Tailwind. As it turns out, they are now one of Epic's sponsors for the whole series, and will be at Old Pueblo. I plan on chatting them up and adjusting accordingly.

    And you're right about that being too much per 1.5, which has been my main problem in the past - you tend to think I'M GOING TO BE RIDING FOR SO LONG I BETTER EAT A SHIT TON OF FOOD!!! I will watch out for that. I don't mind riding slightly hungry; I far prefer it over full or bloated.
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  9. #109
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    I agree that you can take in too many calories per hour and that will take away from your performance some. I also am of the opinion that the less work you body has to do to digest and absorb the nutrient the better. That is why I stick with the liquid nutrition, especially now after switching to Tailwind this past season. Before I was using Skratch, Roctane, or Carbo Rocket (not all at the same event) and trying to hit the 300 calories, and 80-90 grams of carbohydrates per hour, but I was still falling short in my nutrition and having to deal with mild cramps toward the end of races. I would have to supplement with some solids and tried gels but did not like them.

    The first race on Tailwind was an eye opener, no cramps and good energy through the whole race. The shortest race I do is a 100K with a lot of climbing up to solo 24 hour races. I am not interested in trying a 24 hour only on TW, but 12 hour and under it is perfect for me. I think the big difference in TW and the others I have tried is the increased amount of sodium (like 250mg - 300mg more per 80g of carbs). At first I was concerned about the increase but after researching it I found that the theory is the sodium helps the absorption of the carbs. After testing it quite a bit I honestly feel like I am better fueled on the TW.

    I am in no way trying to push Tailwind as a product, or liquid nutrition as the best fueling method. I am just offering up what I have found that works for me. Different strokes for different folks...

    I have really enjoyed this discussion, lots of great info for me to think about. Good stuff guys!

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbell View Post
    I agree that you can take in too many calories per hour and that will take away from your performance some. I also am of the opinion that the less work you body has to do to digest and absorb the nutrient the better. That is why I stick with the liquid nutrition, especially now after switching to Tailwind this past season. Before I was using Skratch, Roctane, or Carbo Rocket (not all at the same event) and trying to hit the 300 calories, and 80-90 grams of carbohydrates per hour, but I was still falling short in my nutrition and having to deal with mild cramps toward the end of races. I would have to supplement with some solids and tried gels but did not like them.

    The first race on Tailwind was an eye opener, no cramps and good energy through the whole race. The shortest race I do is a 100K with a lot of climbing up to solo 24 hour races. I am not interested in trying a 24 hour only on TW, but 12 hour and under it is perfect for me. I think the big difference in TW and the others I have tried is the increased amount of sodium (like 250mg - 300mg more per 80g of carbs). At first I was concerned about the increase but after researching it I found that the theory is the sodium helps the absorption of the carbs. After testing it quite a bit I honestly feel like I am better fueled on the TW.

    I am in no way trying to push Tailwind as a product, or liquid nutrition as the best fueling method. I am just offering up what I have found that works for me. Different strokes for different folks...

    I have really enjoyed this discussion, lots of great info for me to think about. Good stuff guys!
    Great feedback, and I am eager to use Tailwind as a key component of my fueling strategy for this race.

    I have also really enjoyed this discussion, and have learned a TON! I appreciate the thought and input you guys have provided; I know it is hard-won knowledge, and is invaluable for me. Thanks again!


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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Im pretty sure that you are supposed to only take tailwind if you start taking, adding in other real food may cause you issues. <snip>
    There is no requirement that you use Tailwind exclusively if you are using Tailwind. You do need to go in with a strategy though and not switch your plan mid-race. For example, if you started a race planning on 300cal/hr and mixed your TW to meet that need, then suddenly start taking in gel's, one of three things will happen. Either you won't take on enough water, you'll take on too many calories, or both. To obsorb a gel, you need a shockingly large amount of water. For me, I've screwed up a race by adding caffeinated Gu to my plan in addition to the 275cal/hr TW. I drank less TW so my total carb intake per hour was still around 275cal, but that meant less water to assist with absorbing the calories. Carbs without enough water means a gut bomb for me. Now I typically carry an empty bottle on the bike during a race and if my water needs push me above my caloric needs, I fill it up at an aid station and bump my water intake. I also mix my TW a little lighter now, especially on hot races, and supplement my calories with Gu along with a bottle of straight water. ROT for me and Gu is 10oz of straight water/gu/30min. That's my contingency plan though, I still try to get 100% of my caloric and hydration needs with TW. Nice to have some flexibility though in case things don't go quite to plan.

  12. #112
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    I use Tailwind exclusively for any rides from 1 hour to 6. The stuff is great. Did a 6-hour race last year on just TW and felt good the whole time, slightly hungry but fully hydrated and energized. No cramps or instant off to on like you sometimes get with crack, er gels. Just a consistent feeling of good legs and energy.
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  13. #113
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    Timely article....
    https://blog.skratchlabs.com/blog/hy...e-and-practice


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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Timely article....
    https://blog.skratchlabs.com/blog/hy...e-and-practice


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    Thanks for sharing this!

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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by BmanInTheD View Post
    I use Tailwind exclusively for any rides from 1 hour to 6. The stuff is great. Did a 6-hour race last year on just TW and felt good the whole time, slightly hungry but fully hydrated and energized. No cramps or instant off to on like you sometimes get with crack, er gels. Just a consistent feeling of good legs and energy.
    When you say exclusively, do you mean nothing went in your body excpet a liquid made up of tailwind and water. No separate water, or water/electrolyte mixes? No munching at aid stations or anything?






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  16. #116
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    Has anybody messed with a product called..

    EFS Liquid shot. Its 400 calories per serving.

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    I have heard of them but don't have any 1st hand experience. I have tried using similarly packaged products (smaller than your hand "gel flask") and while convenient and easy to pack I have trouble opening and closing the lids and holding on to them while on the trail. I have tried flip top and twist top design lids and both have their drawbacks for me, probably just me. I have used them on the road bike or smooth sections of trail and they are fine, but when out in the rough tight single track they are troublesome.

    I do like the ingredients in the Liquid Shot, good to see the addition of BCAA! I personally would like a little more sodium, but that is completely anecdotal. I may have to order some and give them a shot...

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Wow...I wish I had read that before Old Pueblo this past weekend.

    I completely botched my hydration and nutrition, trying the Tailwind-only bottle approach, and bonked horribly at the end of Lap 7 (at 115 miles or so). Struggled with nausea and no energy on Lap 8, and pulled the plug at 2 am after 131 miles.

    I got behind early on my calories and electrolytes, had trouble getting them down after 4-5 hours, and was never able to make it up. I actually cramped at the beginning of Lap 3 (at the top of Bitch #1), after about 35 miles total, and was like, WTF? But reading that article, it's clear why...

    I've got no beef with Tailwind, as I like it. But I cannot do a "heavy" drink only. I need a light mix and real food throughout. Lesson learned. I overthought it. It sucks, though, because I was riding strong and was well ahead of my goal pace.
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    I had similar issues with Tailwind: if I mixed it strong enough to be my only calories I couldn't stand drinking it for 6 hours, and if I went with 1-2 scoops I was supplementing with real food anyways.

    I just reformulated my Infinit Custom mix to have about 25% more sodium and actually removed all caffeine from it. First race was last weekend, 6 hours of Santos in Ocala and I had a great race with no cramping, pretty consistent pace and power all day. Ended up 12th out of 110 overall so pretty good for me. It was a hot day with punchy climbs and the fuel worked out great.

    https://blog.bikeminded.com/2018-fle-4-santos/
    Last edited by pinkpowa; 02-23-2018 at 10:05 AM.
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    I have. I like it a lot. Relatively easy on my stomach, good flavors, and I like that it includes a bunch of electrolytes in addition to just calories. My go to carry for endurance races has been as follows:

    2 bottles of Infinit (custom blend)
    1 flask of EFS shot
    1 energy bar (I like Picky Bars, they're 200 calories each, small but not too dense and easy to chew)
    Camelback with plain water to wash everything down.

    The above is just a bit more calories than I need for 3 hours but gives me some options depending on what sounds good at the moment, or what's easiest to access given trail conditions. I mainly rely on the Infinit bottles because as long as I drink 1 bottle per hour I'm staying on target with calorie needs and it's less to try and think about when the brain is already fuzzy with fatigue. Bonus on the EFS Shot...the flasks are re-useable. So you can buy more gel in bulk later.

  21. #121
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    Does anyone binge on foods that cause inflamation the night before so you can store more water?

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    Quote Originally Posted by party_wagon View Post
    Does anyone binge on foods that cause inflamation the night before so you can store more water?
    Technically yes and I have felt fantastic all day when I have.

  23. #123
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    Anyone on a keto adapted diet?

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    I feel really good on keto as long as I have a cheat day. I'll ride 2 hours a day after work and then do a five hour ride on Saturday. I'll eat like a large deep dish pizza Friday night with craft beers and more bad food Saturday. If I skip my cheat day I cramp and feel bad until my next cheat day. I normally have 3-4k calories on keto a day. So much eating.

  25. #125
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    This thread is more about racing and training nutrition and hydration during rides. Not eating habits or diets. You can find lots of threads to talk about fad diets and all that other stuff.

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  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    This thread is more about racing and training nutrition and hydration during rides. Not eating habits or diets. You can find lots of threads to talk about fad diets and all that other stuff.

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    I think pre race nutrition is a critical element. Do you opt to double your h20 capacity and store more carbs the day before you ingest a low carb beverage in exchange for poorer circulation to your joints? I can complete forty miles of single track without a drop of water. If I tried to do those rides repeatedly I would suffer. Diet is a critical element and should be included with your race nutrition. I find it much easier to complete a 24 hour race on pizza pre race than sweet potatoes and lean meat.

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by party_wagon View Post
    I think pre race nutrition is a critical element. Do you opt to double your h20 capacity and store more carbs the day before you ingest a low carb beverage in exchange for poorer circulation to your joints? I can complete forty miles of single track without a drop of water. If I tried to do those rides repeatedly I would suffer. Diet is a critical element and should be included with your race nutrition. I find it much easier to complete a 24 hour race on pizza pre race than sweet potatoes and lean meat.
    So start a thread and talk about your voodo science and diets. Dont start talking all your nonsense on this one. There are several threads about a keto diet in the nutrition forum. This was specifically created in this forum to talk about race and training nutrition. Eating a pizza and drinking beer the night before a race is asinine. So take that somewhere else.

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    I'm no doctor but I have done my homework. There are diets that cause you to store more water than others. There is also a big difference between stage races and 24 hour races.

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by party_wagon View Post
    I'm no doctor but I have done my homework. There are diets that cause you to store more water than others. There is also a big difference between stage races and 24 hour races.
    If your running stage races name your whole diet and race take in. If your running 24 hour races name your pre race take in and race take in. Post this information so people can improve their fitness. I'm bad bike handler with a resting heart rate around 35bpm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    So start a thread and talk about your voodo science and diets. Dont start talking all your nonsense on this one. There are several threads about a keto diet in the nutrition forum. This was specifically created in this forum to talk about race and training nutrition. Eating a pizza and drinking beer the night before a race is asinine. So take that somewhere else.

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    Easy killer. I for one find this idea very interesting and think it's relevant to the thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by solo-x View Post
    Easy killer. I for one find this idea very interesting and think it's relevant to the thread.
    There are already plenty of threads about keto and other bs diets. Use those to talk about it. Cant take anybody as other than trolling when they talk about eating pizza and beer before a race, using no water on a 40 mile ride, post useless articles unrelated to this thread, and he made a thread about stage races and is talking about tires. Can any threads on this forum stay on topic. It seems these days, no. Just talk about whatever you want on any thread so when people are trying to read topics and gather info they have to sift through nonsense.

    What psi and chain lube should i run on my commuter bike when racing the city bus while eating a hot slice of pizza and drinking whiskey from my camelbak? Any info guys?

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  33. #133
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    Here i started a thread for you guys to talk about diets and eating habits off the bike. Please take those discussions to that thread.

    Endurance racing nutrition-Off bike

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  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by party_wagon View Post
    I think pre race nutrition is a critical element. Do you opt to double your h20 capacity and store more carbs the day before you ingest a low carb beverage in exchange for poorer circulation to your joints? I can complete forty miles of single track without a drop of water. If I tried to do those rides repeatedly I would suffer. Diet is a critical element and should be included with your race nutrition. I find it much easier to complete a 24 hour race on pizza pre race than sweet potatoes and lean meat.
    Make as many posts as you want about keto and other stuff in this thread please

    Endurance racing nutrition-Off bike

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    When you say exclusively, do you mean nothing went in your body excpet a liquid made up of tailwind and water. No separate water, or water/electrolyte mixes? No munching at aid stations or anything?
    Yep, nothing else. IIRC I used about 150 ounces mixed with 2 scoops/25 oz. Felt like I coulda gone a little harder at times but I hadn't done a race that long in a while and I'm getting old. Here's the ride:
    https://www.strava.com/activities/984775022/overview
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  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    There are already plenty of threads about keto and other bs diets. Use those to talk about it. Cant take anybody as other than trolling when they talk about eating pizza and beer before a race, using no water on a 40 mile ride, post useless articles unrelated to this thread, and he made a thread about stage races and is talking about tires. Can any threads on this forum stay on topic. It seems these days, no. Just talk about whatever you want on any thread so when people are trying to read topics and gather info they have to sift through nonsense.

    What psi and chain lube should i run on my commuter bike when racing the city bus while eating a hot slice of pizza and drinking whiskey from my camelbak? Any info guys?

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    As far as thread drift is concerned, this is far from the most egregious offense I've seen. And it's fine if you feel you want to keep the thread on point, I'd simply suggest softening your delivery when you do it. This thread is after all a discussion of all things endurance fueling and hydration related. Pre-race/post-race or during the race isn't specified.

    And dude, we eat pizza and drink beer DURING the race, why not before?!?

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by solo-x View Post
    As far as thread drift is concerned, this is far from the most egregious offense I've seen. And it's fine if you feel you want to keep the thread on point, I'd simply suggest softening your delivery when you do it. This thread is after all a discussion of all things endurance fueling and hydration related. Pre-race/post-race or during the race isn't specified.

    And dude, we eat pizza and drink beer DURING the race, why not before?!?
    Theres no I in we. I dont drink, or eat shit food like pizza. Yes,im missing out "they say". Im missing out on candida overgrowth, and gastric distress lol.



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  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Theres no I in we. I dont drink, or eat shit food like pizza. Yes,im missing out "they say". Im missing out on candida overgrowth, and gastric distress lol.
    I don't want to derail this any further, but to some your stance against beer hand ups and pizza mid-race is as equally crazy as you think keto is. Also, if you only want to talk to people who believe in the same ideas diet and nutrition wise as you do, what more are you going to learn? You're merely living in an echo chamber at that point.

    Ok, I'm done with this soap box. Back to the discussion!

    I personally don't eat much from aid stations. I take the advice of not doing things differently on race day than in training very seriously though.

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by solo-x View Post
    I don't want to derail this any further, but to some your stance against beer hand ups and pizza mid-race is as equally crazy as you think keto is. Also, if you only want to talk to people who believe in the same ideas diet and nutrition wise as you do, what more are you going to learn? You're merely living in an echo chamber at that point.

    Ok, I'm done with this soap box. Back to the discussion!

    I personally don't eat much from aid stations. I take the advice of not doing things differently on race day than in training very seriously though.
    Nobody im racing against is eating pizza or drinking beer mid race. Thats a different group of people. Ive carried enough caskets to know what beer does. Its a personal choice, i have no problem with people who drink in a race, before, or after, i hang out and drink my water, we all are sharing a vibe. I make jokes about racing to the keg, its not disrespectful, just like guys make fun of me for taking mid pack expert like the world cup. I cant take anyone serious who is drinking the night before a race. Why even train then. Makes no sense. Now if you dont "train" per se, and are just there for the experience, cool, like i stated, im not racing against them.

    Im all about learning new ideas, the exact reason i made this thread. All i was saying is lets keep this about race nutrition and there are other threads about keto and all that. Pretty basic request, keep this one on one topic, and make other threads about other topics. I love hearing new ideas i just dont want to have to sift through a bunch of stuff to read the info im searching for in that particular thread.



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  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Nobody im racing against is eating pizza or drinking beer mid race.
    I think you'd be surprised to discover who's packing pizza for their endurance races.


    Race nutrition is still a very individualized component of finishing (and winning) a race.

  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by VegasSingleSpeed View Post
    I think you'd be surprised to discover who's packing pizza for their endurance races.


    Race nutrition is still a very individualized component of finishing (and winning) a race.





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  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Here i started a thread for you guys to talk about diets and eating habits off the bike. Please take those discussions to that thread.

    Endurance racing nutrition-Off bike- Mtbr.com

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    I drink pineapple coconut water during races.. It's about 60 calories per 20 ounce bottle.

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    If you use Skratch get a hold me asap for a hookup.

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  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    If you use Skratch get a hold me asap for a hookup.

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    I ordered 5 bags, BTW...thanks for the heads up!


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    I used Tailwind for a couple seasons, but found out last season that I can make my own bottles that are just as effective and literally fractions on the dollar compared to the cost of TW. I buy bulk maltodextrine from my local Natural Grocer and add a few other things to make it more palatable and have more electrolytes... A basic bottle is something like:

    2/3rd cup Maltodextrine (~65g carbs)
    1/3rd packet of kool-aid powder
    1/8 tspn table salt

    Depending on if I am doing a training ride or race, I will either add honey to the bottle to bump the carbs up around 80g-90g (long training rides) or carry some homemade honey gels and pop one at the top of every hour (races, since I baggie my mix and you can't really add honey to the mixture).

    This setup gives me varied carb types, salt for electrolytes, and plenty of calories. While I think Tailwind is awesome, it gets to be extremely expensive when you are experimenting, riding a lot, and trying to dial in your race day intake numbers.

  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by SingleSpeedSteven View Post
    I used Tailwind for a couple seasons, but found out last season that I can make my own bottles that are just as effective and literally fractions on the dollar compared to the cost of TW. I buy bulk maltodextrine from my local Natural Grocer and add a few other things to make it more palatable and have more electrolytes... A basic bottle is something like:

    2/3rd cup Maltodextrine (~65g carbs)
    1/3rd packet of kool-aid powder
    1/8 tspn table salt

    Depending on if I am doing a training ride or race, I will either add honey to the bottle to bump the carbs up around 80g-90g (long training rides) or carry some homemade honey gels and pop one at the top of every hour (races, since I baggie my mix and you can't really add honey to the mixture).

    This setup gives me varied carb types, salt for electrolytes, and plenty of calories. While I think Tailwind is awesome, it gets to be extremely expensive when you are experimenting, riding a lot, and trying to dial in your race day intake numbers.
    Full of artificial flavors, coloring, and the biggest scam ever, honey. Just cause you are saving money doesnt mean you arent using things you should never put in your body.


    Most people have a candida overgrowth and thats all they are feeding, not their cells. Like a dog with tapeworm.

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  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Full of artificial flavors, coloring, and the biggest scam ever, honey. Just cause you are saving money doesnt mean you arent using things you should never put in your body.


    Most people have a candida overgrowth and thats all they are feeding, not their cells. Like a dog with tapeworm.

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    With all due respect, your response sounds like vegan propaganda... I will give you the artificial flavors/colors on the kool-aid packets, but at 1/3rd of a packet I can't imagine you are doing much harm (if any) to your body. Especially with how fast you're burning any intake during a race setting.

    Maltodextrine is in literally every endurance fuel I have ever seen. I am sure that there are some without, but they are likely few and far between.

    Honey is actually not a scam, I would be curious to see articles based on scientific research that proves that honey (in reasonable amounts, obviously) is bad for you.

    Again, not trying to be an ass but the only people I ever hear say bad things about honey are bleeding heart vegans. As for daily consumption, I agree with you that kool-aid and maltodextrine are bad. We are talking race setting here though...

  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by SingleSpeedSteven View Post
    With all due respect, your response sounds like vegan propaganda... I will give you the artificial flavors/colors on the kool-aid packets, but at 1/3rd of a packet I can't imagine you are doing much harm (if any) to your body. Especially with how fast you're burning any intake during a race setting.

    Maltodextrine is in literally every endurance fuel I have ever seen. I am sure that there are some without, but they are likely few and far between.

    Honey is actually not a scam, I would be curious to see articles based on scientific research that proves that honey (in reasonable amounts, obviously) is bad for you.

    Again, not trying to be an ass but the only people I ever hear say bad things about honey are bleeding heart vegans. As for daily consumption, I agree with you that kool-aid and maltodextrine are bad. We are talking race setting here though...
    Definitely not vegan. Just look into what i eat. Just because maltodextrin is in something doesnt make it good! LOL, its in beer also. Is that a good endurance fuel? No. Honey spikes your insulin. Use real maple syrup instead. Despite a preponderance of evidence from phds people still think they have a better formula than the companies that do this. Just because your body can fuel off artificial stuff, doesnt mean it should. That's why people eat their usual stuff and it works because your body has perfected a way to process artificial stuff. When you put natural stuff in your body doesnt have the proper digestive enzymes in place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Definitely not vegan. Just look into what i eat. Just because maltodextrin is in something doesnt make it good! LOL, its in beer also. Is that a good endurance fuel? No. Honey spikes your insulin. Use real maple syrup instead. Despite a preponderance of evidence from phds people still think they have a better formula than the companies that do this. Just because your body can fuel off artificial stuff, doesnt mean it should. That's why people eat their usual stuff and it works because your body has perfected a way to process artificial stuff. When you put natural stuff in your body doesnt have the proper digestive enzymes in place.

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    Lane, I'm fairly sure that insulin spikes aren't a factor in racing - perhaps in peeps with extreme sensitivities to blood sugar such as hypoglycemics and diabetes. no clue where I read that though and my cursory 10 sec googles didn't find anything. Haven't seen that tommyrod guy in a while. I think he's a dietician who could elaborate more on that.

    Then again, I'm getting old and forgetful so I may have this completely bassackwards.

  50. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Definitely not vegan. Just look into what i eat. Just because maltodextrin is in something doesnt make it good! LOL, its in beer also. Is that a good endurance fuel? No. Honey spikes your insulin. Use real maple syrup instead. Despite a preponderance of evidence from phds people still think they have a better formula than the companies that do this. Just because your body can fuel off artificial stuff, doesnt mean it should. That's why people eat their usual stuff and it works because your body has perfected a way to process artificial stuff. When you put natural stuff in your body doesnt have the proper digestive enzymes in place.

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    I would never be so arrogant as to think I knew more than the people who developed Tailwind, or any other race fuel for that matter. As I mentioned before, what you eat in a race setting is different than sitting at your desk eating the same thing. Maltodextrin is not something I would eat in my breakfast oatmeal, but there has been a ton of science showing that it's actually a great endurance fuel.

    Not sure if you posted it or not (maybe I need to go back through this thread) but I would be curious to see how you fueled. I have had people preach to me about fueling all natural, which I am completely on board with but none of them have been able to give me solid advice on how to carry and maintain it. As an example, I had a local guy recommend that I fuel with dates. When I asked him how he went about carrying enough dates to fuel for a 6+ hour race, he basically told me he keeps a giant wad of sticky disgusting dates in his jersey pockets and just fishes through until he can break a chunk off. Sounded awful...

  51. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by SingleSpeedSteven View Post
    I would never be so arrogant as to think I knew more than the people who developed Tailwind, or any other race fuel for that matter. As I mentioned before, what you eat in a race setting is different than sitting at your desk eating the same thing. Maltodextrin is not something I would eat in my breakfast oatmeal, but there has been a ton of science showing that it's actually a great endurance fuel.

    Not sure if you posted it or not (maybe I need to go back through this thread) but I would be curious to see how you fueled. I have had people preach to me about fueling all natural, which I am completely on board with but none of them have been able to give me solid advice on how to carry and maintain it. As an example, I had a local guy recommend that I fuel with dates. When I asked him how he went about carrying enough dates to fuel for a 6+ hour race, he basically told me he keeps a giant wad of sticky disgusting dates in his jersey pockets and just fishes through until he can break a chunk off. Sounded awful...
    I probably told you that haha. I do use dates, and i cut up sweet potatoes in slices and grill on the George foreman the night before. For 6hrs that would only be 15 dates, easily fits in my revelate feed bag on my bars or in my jersey pocket. I just use a shopping bag and let the handles flap in the wind. Its part of my signature style .

    The whole point is to make a big ball of food in your stomach, that same ball of dates in your pocket, sitting in your stomach as Skratch is taken in bottles.

    Now the reason this doesnt work for everyone is their body isnt used to burning natural sugars it needs refined sugars. Most people over eat anyways. They think they need a bunch of stuff or they are getting behind. Just keep it simple.


    Here is 6 hours worth of dates, one package, the key is then adding a bit of parkers maple butter, another natural superfood, and sprinkling with iodized sea salt.
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  52. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    I probably told you that haha. I do use dates, and i cut up sweet potatoes in slices and grill on the George foreman the night before. For 6hrs that would only be 15 dates, easily fits in my revelate feed bag on my bars or in my jersey pocket. I just use a shopping bag and let the handles flap in the wind. Its part of my signature style .

    The whole point is to make a big ball of food in your stomach, that same ball of dates in your pocket, sitting in your stomach as Skratch is taken in bottles.

    Now the reason this doesnt work for everyone is their body isnt used to burning natural sugars it needs refined sugars. Most people over eat anyways. They think they need a bunch of stuff or they are getting behind. Just keep it simple.

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    Despite what you may think of my bottle mixture, I am actually a very clean eater. Which I am convinced plays a big part in how bad I get gut bombs trying to fuel with literally anything solid. I tried a lot of training rides with homemade solid foods, and it always ended in me being doubled over on the side of the trail with a knot in my gullywuts. I am actually extremely impressed that you can race with a gut full of sweet potatoes, I can't even imagine having something that heavy trying to digest while I am riding at race pace.

    If someone had a convincing way to put 80g-90g of natural carbs and sugars into a bottle and/or bottle homemade gel combo I would be 100% willing to try it.

  53. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by SingleSpeedSteven View Post
    Despite what you may think of my bottle mixture, I am actually a very clean eater. Which I am convinced plays a big part in how bad I get gut bombs trying to fuel with literally anything solid. I tried a lot of training rides with homemade solid foods, and it always ended in me being doubled over on the side of the trail with a knot in my gullywuts. I am actually extremely impressed that you can race with a gut full of sweet potatoes, I can't even imagine having something that heavy trying to digest while I am riding at race pace.

    If someone had a convincing way to put 80g-90g of natural carbs and sugars into a bottle and/or bottle homemade gel combo I would be 100% willing to try it.
    See thats the issue, your gut enzymes and all that. It doesnt move the food from your stomach into your intestines fast enough because you havent optimized it for that. So ya you have a big ball in your stomach cause it cant get to the intestines where it can get put into use. Its a whole physiological process. You have to train your body to fuel a certain way, some people are trying new stuff but their body cant do anything with it.

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  54. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    The whole point is to make a big ball of food in your stomach, that same ball of dates in your pocket, sitting in your stomach as Skratch is taken in bottles.
    ^^This...
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    I am pretty sure that in a normal “healthy” person sugar intake (any form of sugar: honey, maple syrup, candy, rice, pasta, or even potatoes) during high activity like racing will not stimulate any insulin production. This is because the sugar is immediately used as energy. Insulin is needed to convert the sugar to fat so it can be stored for later use. So you shouldn’t experience an insulin spike, nor should you experience the “crash” you can get from excessive sugars during “non active” states.

    That’s why a lot of people can fuel very effectively off of simple sugars for extended periods of time.

  56. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    See thats the issue, your gut enzymes and all that. It doesnt move the food from your stomach into your intestines fast enough because you havent optimized it for that. So ya you have a big ball in your stomach cause it cant get to the intestines where it can get put into use. Its a whole physiological process. You have to train your body to fuel a certain way, some people are trying new stuff but their body cant do anything with it.

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    So what is the process to adapting your body to racing on solid foods? Just suffer through enough that it finally starts to digest food under high intensity loads?

  57. #157
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    I follow this for my training nutrition. I just move the cheat meal to Friday night and Saturday since I do my long rides Saturday and Sunday. The article references cantelope for fast carbs. Does anyone use cantelope during races?https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/nutrition-101-eat-to-build-lean-muscle.html

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