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  1. #1
    JeffcoHo
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    Carbon 'bars and seat post for dampening.

    I was having a conversation over a beer and we were talking about the dampening effect of carbon seat post and bars. The problem is I can't remember the names of them.

    What are some good carbon seat posts and handlebars? I am also looking at at least 711mm wide.

    Thanks
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    Easton Havens are great for dampening. I have them on all my bikes. And the bar is that wide.
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    Ive got carbon bars and seatpost, and cant tell any difference between the carbon vs aluminum as far as dampening goes. The carbon is super stiff, and I dont think it makes any difference other than weight. This is just my perception of it.

  4. #4
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    This seat post?

    Flash Carbon Seatpost

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffcoHo View Post
    I was having a conversation over a beer and we were talking about the dampening effect of carbon seat post and bars. The problem is I can't remember the names of them.

    What are some good carbon seat posts and handlebars? I am also looking at at least 711mm wide.

    Thanks
    Must have been a real short conversation.


    Magura

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  7. #7
    Daniel the Dog
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    I'm sorry but I don't feel a ton of dampening effect. I ride them because they are light and strong.

  8. #8
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    Somebody, maybe Syntace, is making a carbon seatpost the flexes more axially than it does longitudinally. Sounds like a cool idea, but spendy.

    As far as damping goes, that might be noticeable on a road bike, but there is no way switching from alu to carbon bars and post makes as much difference as reducing your tire pressure a few pounds, or even switching from budget 60tpi tires to smooth riding 120 tpi tires.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo View Post
    Somebody, maybe Syntace, is making a carbon seatpost the flexes more axially than it does longitudinally. Sounds like a cool idea, but spendy.
    Yep, Syntace P6-

    Syntace P6 Carbon HiFlex seatpost, Vector Carbon handlebar and Megaforce 2 stem Review | Mountain Bike Review

    I have one but have yet to ride with it, I just wanted to save a little weight and Syntace offers a ten year warranty. Their stuff goes thru some very rigorous stress testing.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo View Post
    I'm sorry but I don't feel a ton of dampening effect.
    That's because there isn't any worth considering

    This goes for the Syntace post too BTW., no matter what their marketing department claims.

    Magura

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishpitbull View Post
    Easton Havens are great for dampening. I have them on all my bikes. And the bar is that wide.
    Ditto! They are 711mm
    I use extra long grips on them and it makes holing on so much easier.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    That's because there isn't any worth considering

    This goes for the Syntace post too BTW., no matter what their marketing department claims.

    Magura
    The carbon fibre component that I've found makes a noticeable difference to comfort by reducing trail buzz is a carbon railed saddle. Changing from a Specialized Romin Expert saddle with titanium rails to a Specialized Romin Pro saddle with 7x9mm carbon fibre rails was a surprisingly large improvement.

    Even on a full suspension bike the carbon railed saddle gives a smoother ride than the same saddle with titanium rails, as though the tyres are at a slightly lower pressure or the rear shock's brain platform is a click softer.

    Specialized Bicycle Components

    I've been meaning to try a Syntace P6 Hiflex post for a while as apparently they do improve comfort. What's putting me off is that they're an in-line seatpost and I currently use a Thomson Elite layback seatpost so the riding position might not work. There are some other similar seatposts too, such as the Storck and Niner RDO posts which are claimed to offer some flex. This video shows the small amount of movement that is supposed to make a Niner RDO carbon seatpost more comfortable. I haven't actually tried one though.

    Niner RDO Seatpost

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ssxodqjpeLY?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    (changed Niner video to a Youtube video that works now.)

    Apparently titanium seatposts can offer some additional comfort also.

    When it comes to handlebars I'd struggle to say that I've noticed any difference in vibration damping between various handlebars. The main factor for limiting vibration though the handlebars seems to be your fork's suspension settings and running the front tyre at lowish pressures.
    Last edited by WR304; 08-17-2012 at 08:55 AM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by WR304 View Post
    The carbon fibre component that I've found makes a noticeable difference to comfort by reducing trail buzz is a carbon railed saddle. Changing from a Specialized Romin Expert saddle with titanium rails to a Specialized Romin Pro saddle with 7x9mm carbon fibre rails was a surprisingly large improvement.

    Even on a full suspension bike the carbon railed saddle gives a smoother ride than the same saddle with titanium rails, as though the tyres are at a slightly lower pressure or the rear shock's brain platform is a click softer.

    Specialized Bicycle Components

    Apparently titanium seatposts can offer some additional comfort also.

    When it comes to handlebars I'd struggle to say that I've noticed any difference in vibration damping between various handlebars. The main factor for limiting vibration though the handlebars seems to be your fork's suspension settings and running the front tyre at lowish pressures.
    Comparing two completely different saddles, and claiming the benefit of one over the other, being due to a specific factor, is pretty flawed logic at best

    Regarding the comfort you seem to think you can get from x/y/z material seat post, you are going to be disappointed if you do a bit of measuring or math.

    Let's just make a quick thought experiment:

    If said seat post did actually flex enough to give some comfort, wouldn't you agree that it would have to fit the weight of the rider, like other suspension components?
    A seat post that can carry a 200lb rider and flex, would be pretty rigid under a 130lb rider, don't you think?

    The same goes for saddle rails, handlebars, and so forth.

    Magura

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    Comparing these specific saddles is an interesting one. The Specialized Romin Pro 143mm width (carbon rails) and Specialized Romin Expert 143mm width (titanium rails) aren't completely different saddles. Put them side by side and visually they're the same
    The saddle upper (plastic shell, padding, covering, shape and width) is identical between the two saddles.

    Specialized Romin Pro Saddle

    Specialized Romin Expert Saddle

    Where the two saddles differ is in the saddle rail material and also the connection points between the saddle rails and saddle. The carbon rails being bonded to the saddle. The carbon railed Romin Pro is noticeably more flexible in a fore-aft direction than the Romin Expert when you try and rock it by hand.

    It's when you ride the saddles on the same bike on familiar trails that the added comfort from the Romin Pro becomes apparent.

    I can't really comment on the different seatposts as I haven't tried them.

    Pictured below: Specialized Romin Pro and Specialized Romin Expert saddles have visually identical uppers. The only difference being the saddle rail material and connection points.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Carbon 'bars and seat post for dampening.-romin_expert_pro.jpg  


  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    That's because there isn't any worth considering

    This goes for the Syntace post too BTW., no matter what their marketing department claims.

    Magura
    Take that back Magura, I just spent big bucks on that post, lie to me if you have to

    I've never had anything but aluminum bars and seat posts. I aim to try for myself and see If I can discern an appreciatable difference. At least I'll save a little weight.





    If it concerns me that much afterwards I still have one of these from back in the day-
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  16. #16
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    Why is it $180?
    is it seriously worth that much in benefits?

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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    Why is it $180?
    is it seriously worth that much in benefits?
    Well, as I said I aim to find out. To be sure with the Syntace products you save weight and get a ten year warranty.

    Of course there are diminishing returns after a certain point and I imagine this is the case with high dollar carbon components. An $80 part may be twice as good as a $50 part, but a $180 part may only be marginally better, thatís usually how it goes as you approach the higher end stuff.

    Is it worth it? that will depend on ones wants, needs, and amount of discretionary income. Hell, if I were concerned about the money I damn sure wouldn't have taken up mountain biking.

    Top of the line components are awesome, haters are gonna hate.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by WR304 View Post
    Comparing these specific saddles is an interesting one. The Specialized Romin Pro 143mm width (carbon rails) and Specialized Romin Expert 143mm width (titanium rails) aren't completely different saddles. Put them side by side and visually they're the same
    The saddle upper (plastic shell, padding, covering, shape and width) is identical between the two saddles.

    Where the two saddles differ is in the saddle rail material and also the connection points between the saddle rails and saddle. The carbon rails being bonded to the saddle. The carbon railed Romin Pro is noticeably more flexible in a fore-aft direction than the Romin Expert when you try and rock it by hand.

    It's when you ride the saddles on the same bike on familiar trails that the added comfort from the Romin Pro becomes apparent.

    I can't really comment on the different seatposts as I haven't tried them.

    Pictured below: Specialized Romin Pro and Specialized Romin Expert saddles have visually identical uppers. The only difference being the saddle rail material and connection points.
    Visually those saddles are very similar, you are right this far, but they work in two completely different ways.
    What makes the big difference, is the connection points.
    The carbon rail version, is a single piece, thus the built in suspension is based on deflection.
    The titanium rail version is based on defection and pivot points.

    That makes for a completely different construction.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    Take that back Magura, I just spent big bucks on that post, lie to me if you have to

    I've never had anything but aluminum bars and seat posts. I aim to try for myself and see If I can discern an appreciatable difference. At least I'll save a little weight.
    Well, if you still believe in the marketing department of Syntace, go make a quick experiment.

    Mount your new seat post, measure the distance from the saddle rails to for instance the top of the rear brake caliper.
    Now sit on the bike, and do the same measurement.

    If the difference is less than 10-15mm (approx. half an inch), you got a regular seatpost with a funny story. If it deflects like 10mm or more, well, I'm wrong and the marketing department of Syntace is right


    Magura

  20. #20
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    I've got a Nashbar carbon post and carbon bar on my rigid 29ER. They have both smoothed out the ride significantly compared to the aluminum parts they replaced... And I would never go for $100 each for these parts when the Nashbar post is $40, and the bar is $45. And since I weigh 255 and these parts work fine, they will probably work for you.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by BIGABIGD View Post
    I've got a Nashbar carbon post and carbon bar on my SS 29ER. I believeThey have both smoothed out the ride significantly compared to the aluminum parts they replaced... And I would never do for $100 for these parts when the Nashbar post is $40, and the bar is $45. And since I weigh 255 and these parts work fine, they will probably work for you.
    Fixed it for you


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  22. #22
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    Here are some links to a few recent magazine tests comparing the relative flex of different seatposts.

    http://www.schmolke-carbon.de/carbon...omprimiert.pdf

    http://velonews.competitor.com/files...90_VeloJun.jpg

    There's also a seatpost test in the German tour quarterly online magazine 01/2012 which I read a few weeks ago but can't find the link to again. If I do find it I'll post the link.

    The previous 4/2011 edition is here.

    www.tour-quarterly.com

    .
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Carbon 'bars and seat post for dampening.-velo_seatpost1.jpg  

    Carbon 'bars and seat post for dampening.-velo_seatpost2.jpg  

    Carbon 'bars and seat post for dampening.-velonews_seatpost_june2012.jpg  


  23. #23
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    Very interesting physics analysis. So according to this, the posts with more flex give you more of the carbon damping properties it seems. The ones with the least flex don't appear to offer much more damping than an aluminum post, yes ?
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  24. #24
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    That's all good.

    Now where is the test protocol? That should make the first alarm bells go off.

    Which frame was used?
    How far were the posts inserted into the frame?

    That a post with a bigger setback will flex more than one without, does not require a test, as that is simple math.

    Were all seat post clamps of the same length? If not, it would be the saddle rails making a difference.

    Did they measure the load on the bars as well? Not really as far as I can tell. If not, just a couple of centimeters of different body position, would make more difference than the entire scale they work with.

    Depending how heavy the rider is, and the seat tube angle, the flex is going to be more or less.
    With no rider weight indication on the posts, I call marketing babble.

    1 or 2 mm of travel, is not going to make much of a difference on a mountain bike. To get some dampening worth considering, travel is needed.

    You may want to look into the numbers they quote from their test. As far as I can tell, the numbers are of no importance to a MTB. At less than 1G difference, hardly any travel, this will drown in any MTB tire suspension by a magnitude.

    A "test" like the above, is what goes into the category called "technobabble".

    If any of the manufacturers indeed believed their product had the claimed properties, I find it very strange they don't simply get a real test made at an independent institute with credibility?
    Now a proof of such a claim, from an independent test institute, would be worth its weight in gold to the marketing department, and such patent would be worth even more.

    So far all I see, is marketing babble, and goofy patent applications, that never goes past the PCT stage for some reason.

    Magura

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    Quote Originally Posted by BIGABIGD View Post
    Very interesting physics analysis. So according to this, the posts with more flex give you more of the carbon damping properties it seems. The ones with the least flex don't appear to offer much more damping than an aluminum post, yes ?
    No, the more travel, the more damping. It's as simple as that.

    Be that steel, aluminum, cryptonite, you name it.

    The damping that composites can offer, is a long way from what that "test" tries to show.
    As in many orders of magnitude.

    What you see in the test, is the results of a spring.


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    http://www.schmolke-carbon.de/carbon...omprimiert.pdf

    That test says the new Easton post I ordered has 2nd highest flex (31.6 size).
    Sweet, I got it on sale too!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    Well, if you still believe in the marketing department of Syntace, go make a quick experiment.

    Mount your new seat post, measure the distance from the saddle rails to for instance the top of the rear brake caliper.
    Now sit on the bike, and do the same measurement.

    If the difference is less than 10-15mm (approx. half an inch), you got a regular seatpost with a funny story. If it deflects like 10mm or more, well, I'm wrong and the marketing department of Syntace is right
    Why measure deflection under a static load as though measuring travel? Are you under the impression that Syntace marketed the P6 as a suspension post? Or perhaps youíre not taking into account the fact that there is a massive difference between slowly and suddenly applied loads.

    Syntace claims the additional flex designed into the post would render it less efficient at transferring shock loads. This is much different than how much movement one observes under a static load. The intent of the design is to mitigate harshness, not smooth out bump frequencies as in a suspension system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    No, the more travel, the more damping. It's as simple as that. Be that steel, aluminum, cryptonite, you name it.
    I cannot agree that more travel is the only way in which to achieve more damping. Are you claiming that if one holds a block of wood in one hand and strikes it with a hammer it will be equally as harsh as striking a block of steel? I ask rhetorically, obviously different materials possess different properties.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    The damping that composites can offer, is a long way from what that "test" tries to show. As in many orders of magnitude.
    That may be so, but please donít take my comments out of context insinuating I bought into marketing hype. I clearly stated I purchased due to weight savings and a ten year warranty, my finding out for myself if the damping properties of the P6 are as claimed are an aside.

    The OP asked for input from fellow riders with experience with carbon components to which you state their claims are imaginary. As you say Magura, there are no independent studies so if you are that convicted of your belief then the burden of proof is on you.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    http://www.schmolke-carbon.de/carbon...omprimiert.pdf

    That test says the new Easton post I ordered has 2nd highest flex (31.6 size).
    Sweet, I got it on sale too!
    Here's the Google translate version of the German seatpost article. It's a bit hard to follow but you can get the gist of it. The comments below are my interpretation of it based on the Google translated text:

    The key points appear to be that the magazine asked two engineering students from the college of Ostwestfalen-Lippe to test the different seatposts for flex in the laboratory, along with magazine testers riding the seatposts on rough roads in Mallorca to see how they perform in use.

    Their conclusions were:

    For the seatpost to flex enough to be comfortable there needs to be 175mm length or more extending out of the frame.

    A 27.2mm diameter seatpost is 20 to 40 percent more flexible than the same seatpost in 31.6mm diameter, apart from the Syntace P6 Hiflex which was about the same in both diameters.

    They really liked the Schmolke TLO seatpost for comfort but it was maybe too soft and swayed a bit when pedalling hard uphill.

    When looking at the graphs a lower stiffness figure is better for comfort. The Easton EC70 seatpost is one of the stiffest seatposts in the test. It's less flexible than nearly all the other seatposts so will be one of the least comfortable seatposts.

    Google translate text:
    ------------------------------------------------------
    Can saddle clip with flexible, resilient the later a plus au racing comfort be enforced. We studied 13 flex clip 85 to 495 Ä and explain what it takes
    anxiety in the development of racing wheels enter the ergonomics has kept. Are finite, many denekn, Total was hard earlier - today is intelligently designed. The frame's head tube, for example, thick-walled and grobvolumig prazises against flutter and handlebars for lenkverhlten. The bottom bracket is also Hochst verwindungsteif to be diverted from the laborious rote acquired leistungsvermogen not eingle watt need to bend the frame with powerful pedaling. For the same reason the whole drive train is executed rigid and inelastic. The pedal to the pinion package - mechanical misalignments here some were mean watt loss.
    In contrast to this, the seat - and the chain stays flattened to achieve a specific flexibility. The results spurbaren comfort saddle or on the lower ruck area. Flat seek are just more flexible than round. We could also mention the leaf-spring principle.
    Also Seatpost is a component which affects the comfort mabgeblich - if it is flexible. The gross benefit: unions are nachrustbar. The tube wall of the strong new flex nozzle is calculated so that the construction bends at the defined mabe flew. This flexibility, or the flex verchafft, the driver a clear plus in comfort. Really well this works, but only if the saddle stop short mogli Highest long protruding from the frame, ie from approximately 175mm long. Long rod-shaped components, such as about saddle clip, bend over short. In practice it looks folgendermaben: the rear wheel rolls over an obstacle, and the entire rear is lifted with saddle stop short stobartig. The mass inertia of the driver and opposes the stobrichtung stop short of the tube bends backward. with the flex of the pipe creates comfort that is stob cushioned.
    Are now available from many manufacturers flex mares. But which is the most flexible and thus most comfortable? There is no single value that describes the. Haibike Syntace and drove the conceptual highflex in product names. Canyon used in its carbon-saddle stop short basalt fibers and speaks of an up to four times higher elasticity compared to normal carbon fibers. Tune has at his black pieces on the stunningly low weight down (approx 110g) one possible flex is not discussed.
    The comfort-seeking consumer is currently with his choice before unlosbaren problems. It is therefore time for one export union test of flex trim. We define these as nachrustbauteil and examined them solely in terms of their flexibility, without frame and lauder. Dedicated SUPPORT we erherhielten of the college ostwestfalen lip in Lemgo, from fachbereich machine technology. in metrology laboratory untersuchetn two studierrende as part of their bachelor - the flexibility of working for rennrader saddle trim and MTBs. CHECKING addition to the design and also belong to the measure of auteilen berufsbilf of engineering-ingee engineers.
    The graphic shows the final result of the rigidity flex clip: the smaller the stiffness least, is more comfortable the saddle stop short

    the most comfortable, flexible restraint comes from the home of model Schmolke TLO flexes with only 50 N / mm. The execution of SL reaches 53 N / mm. Both versions differ primarily by the fiber type, the grouted TLO about higher quality carbon fibers with grobererer tensile strength.

    VCLS with basalt canyons made of carbon fiber shines with 77 N / mm, and very comfortable. This was followed the wide midfield, the Blacks of Tune's Stuck (136N/mm) and the Syntace P6 HIFLEX (150 N / mm) is ford. All diameter with 27.2 mm respectively.

    For all the following context is crucial considerations: In the saddle coarsening stub long increases the flex in the third potency. To this purpose, an extreme example: If the output of the long doubles stumble, so the flex increases by eight times (2(power)3 = 8). That is, even a small increase of output increases the long flex noticeable.
    In reality this hang together is not quite as pronounced, as the clamp range is strong thick wall below the critical than at the upper end of the pipe.
    But what does that mean in practice? Are, for example when the frame neukauf rough 56 and 58 centimeters equally into consideration, so they choose the smaller and gross profit from the prolonged spend two centimeters long.
    Many thick gel padded saddle with high build. Experiment with dunn padded copies, according to the high saddle stumble, be extended. We traded high differentials of up to 20 mm.
    In kompaketn sloop-frame with its hard shell pipes falling backwards ended the saddle stop short right projects far out of the frame. Thus, the concept of long FLEXING saddle trim are translated translated admirably. The issue here long lie between 175 millimeters and 225.

    Next flexen saddle clip with little more than the diameter with coarse (with the same strong wall). Specifically: 27.2mm in diameter results in around 20 to 40 percent more flex than 31.6mm diameter, which is dependent on the wall and the strong querovalisierung. Of a querovalisierung spoken when the lateral
    strong wall is thinner than the front and back are executed. The lateral pipe walls are in the range of neutral bending fiber and are thus hardly loaded on train and pressure, therefore they can be thinner. For example, the Syntace P6 HIFLEX measures mm in the wall flanked by two strong, forward facing 3.5mm. Most saddle clip show this to more or less pronounced detail. Noteworthy only the carbon trim Syntace version for all diameters annahernd to the same flex
    27.2mm to 31.6mm trim frame
    Currently carbon frames are often saddle trim bestuckt having 31.6mm diameter. Can help with a distanzhulse but also slimmer, use pliable trim 27.2mm. An optimum clamping is only ensured when the terminal slots of frame and Hulse over each other. Logically must be the distanzhulse genause llang how the minimum insertion of Seatpost usually 80 to 90 mm. The use of pods (92mm) and bikehardest (85mm) long enough.
    Add to that a statement by stefan Schmolke: distanzhulsen permit a smooth transition from the unyielding frame to stop short thin. It is optimal for the power flow lines.
    Practical test on mallorca
    The three testiegern gebuhrte the honor in training camp on Mallorca gepruft also to be HELPFUL. Dan was the clip of Schmolke TLO (), Canyon and Tune. Two tester fuhrer them. Hurzeler in wheels of the tour operator, the model centurion GigaDrive The sloop of carbonrhamens amounts to 40mm, so long could be realized gross output of 205 and 215 mm. Distanzhulsen us ermoglichten the use of thin flex trim. Of our total 1800 kilometers we rolled deliberately a roughly paved in part to moderately next stretch - not only the wonderful landscapes begeisteretn us, but also the Sindern clip also flexible.

    The black pieces of tune bugelte the rudest stobe a profitable Handsome mabglatt the canyon there VCLS mediated Sect comfort in sense of the word. The TLO schmokle however Stieb on the structures in new dimension, even when seated. The TLO is super comfortable but not spongy. However, the rider from side perspecktive noticed that the powerful effect on the mountain a little stumble, teeters, what the driver spurt but - mind you at long abstract of about 200 mm. The purists will only interfere and professionals. The reverse conclusion: even with a smaller output from the frame is vermittein the TLO pleasant comfort.
    During our test, we evaluated in the first line of the comfort, but also the weight. Prices from 300 to almost 500 euro seem rather horrendous, but especially the long-term health of the back is a priceless good. Fall into many can also be saved to the price of a comfortable frame or whole wheel.


    http://www.schmolke-carbon.de/carbon...omprimiert.pdf

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Pictued below: Rennrad Magazine Seatpost Test (I've added the english text to try and make it clearer.)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Carbon 'bars and seat post for dampening.-seatpost_test_june2012.jpg  


  29. #29
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    Think about it. 50 to 250 N/mm ???????

    Does that have much influence on a MTB?

    Do the math.


    Magura

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    Think about it. 50 to 250 N/mm ???????

    Does that have much influence on a MTB?

    Do the math.


    Magura
    I would agree that by itself, not really. But that is not to say this property is without merit. If one were inclined to build with comfort in mind by carefully choosing like components and set up their bike accordingly.

    Saddle and bar selection, grips, tire pressure, suspension tune (if applicable), even shoes worn will all have a small influence. The idea is stacking tolerances, many small changes that when combined will be very noticeable not unlike weight savings, i.e. a few grams here and there thru careful component selection will add up.

    Man Magura, I've seen some good posts from you in the past but this particular subject has you fired up. To offer some constructive criticism less condescension and more sound reasoning would better support your argument and positively benefit the forums.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    Why measure deflection under a static load as though measuring travel? Are you under the impression that Syntace marketed the P6 as a suspension post? Or perhaps youíre not taking into account the fact that there is a massive difference between slowly and suddenly applied loads.

    Syntace claims the additional flex designed into the post would render it less efficient at transferring shock loads. This is much different than how much movement one observes under a static load. The intent of the design is to mitigate harshness, not smooth out bump frequencies as in a suspension system.



    I cannot agree that more travel is the only way in which to achieve more damping. Are you claiming that if one holds a block of wood in one hand and strikes it with a hammer it will be equally as harsh as striking a block of steel? I ask rhetorically, obviously different materials possess different properties.



    That may be so, but please donít take my comments out of context insinuating I bought into marketing hype. I clearly stated I purchased due to weight savings and a ten year warranty, my finding out for myself if the damping properties of the P6 are as claimed are an aside.

    The OP asked for input from fellow riders with experience with carbon components to which you state their claims are imaginary. As you say Magura, there are no independent studies so if you are that convicted of your belief then the burden of proof is on you.
    A load is the same, no matter if big or small, higher or lower frequency, so the forces works the same as well in both cases.

    To offer damping, the piece in question has to slow down a given amount of energy. The longer the travel, the slower the stop, gives higher damping.
    This is why we have adjustable suspension systems on our bikes.

    The analogy of hitting wood and steel, is not comparable. In that case it would be the mass that made the difference, not the material as such.

    I'm sorry, it seems I understood you the wrong way. You posted about the damping qualities of the Syntace post, so I thought you bought it due to that expectation.
    My mistake

    One thing I am not wrong about though, is that the burden of proof, is on the one making the claim, in this case Syntace. I have not made any claim, but questioned unproven claims.
    That's a quite different matter

    What we are discussing here, is physics, not religion, and to produce evidence to support a claim, is mandatory.
    To have a marketing department spew their usual technobabble, is on the contrary something that ought to make peoples alarm bells go off big time.

    The reasoning behind that I put some effort into exposing claims that are put by marketing departments without evidence, is that if nobody does so, sooner or later the marketing BS turns into "common knowledge".

    Just take a look at how things has ended up in the home audio industry.
    No reason the bike industry should go down the same path, as that really just serves the marketing departments with the lowest moral standards.

    To the bike industry, it would be relatively easy to come forth with evidence to back up claims, as just about anything can be measured relatively easily, and at relatively low cost.
    Instead we seem to get more and more of unfounded claims, and the usual "50% better, stiffer, faster, lower rolling resistance" bull.

    It would be so much easier to just hand out measurements, but trouble is that most of the marketing technobabble would fall on the floor instantly if measured.


    Magura

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    I would agree that by itself, not really. But that is not to say this property is without merit. If one were inclined to build with comfort in mind by carefully choosing like components and set up their bike accordingly.

    Saddle and bar selection, grips, tire pressure, suspension tune (if applicable), even shoes worn will all have a small influence. The idea is stacking tolerances, many small changes that when combined will be very noticeable not unlike weight savings, i.e. a few grams here and there thru careful component selection will add up.

    Man Magura, I've seen some good posts from you in the past but this particular subject has you fired up. To offer some constructive criticism less condescension and more sound reasoning would better support your argument and positively benefit the forums.
    Let's put it all into scale.

    Tires : 50+mm of suspension
    Saddle rails : often 10+mm suspension
    Suspension fork : approx half the travel of the fork at the point where the saddle is, so let's say another 50+mm depending how much travel your fork has naturally.

    So here we have at least 100+mm of vertical travel available at the saddle.
    The tires being the first in line and the fastest as well, takes care of most of the small stuff.
    Next the fork takes over, dealing with the bigger stuff. The saddle rails will start to work as well at that point.
    Adding another 2mm of very stiff suspension is not going to do anything, beyond what is already dealt with.


    On a road bike, the game may change, I don't know for sure, and to be honest I'm too lazy to calculate it. A couple of mm of travel, would though seem to at least be significant on a road bike. If it makes a difference in that case, well I doubt it.


    Magura

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    To offer damping, the piece in question has to slow down a given amount of energy. The longer the travel, the slower the stop, gives higher damping.
    This is why we have adjustable suspension systems on our bikes.
    I stand by my statement as what I was addressing is the idea that travel is the only means by which to achieve damping, your response is in agreement with my stance on this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    The analogy of hitting wood and steel, is not comparable. In that case it would be the mass that made the difference, not the material as such.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    I cannot agree that more travel is the only way in which to achieve more damping. Are you claiming that if one holds a block of wood in one hand and strikes it with a hammer it will be equally as harsh as striking a block of steel? I ask rhetorically, obviously different materials possess different properties.
    Is mass not a physical property? My point being that damping or a deadening effect has been achieved in that example sans travel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    One thing I am not wrong about though, is that the burden of proof, is on the one making the claim, in this case Syntace. I have not made any claim, but questioned unproven claims.
    That's a quite different matter
    You misunderstand, on the point of Syntaceís or anyone elseís marketing claims I am in absolute agreement with you, however in the case of a fellow member who isnít selling anything and has nothing to gain claiming an observed appreciable difference in ride quality and your inference that it is merely a belief I contend that the observation, albeit not taken to the test and refine phase, is a stronger case than your disbelief or doubt. If you aim to convince others that your disbelief in this fellows claim is founded then the burden of providing evidence of a false claim or a reason for doing so falls on your shoulders.

    I applaud your efforts and desire to hold companies to a higher standard of scientific integrity and honesty in advertising, but when you get to the point of shooting down fellow end users for the sake of supporting an argument I believe your passion to have become a disservice. I believe it would have been wiser to pursue a line of questioning toward the claimant in an attempt to understand their perception to further investigate the claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    Let's put it all into scale...

    Adding another 2mm of very stiff suspension is not going to do anything, beyond what is already dealt with.
    Looking at it from another angle, what if we were to use the stiffest most rigid post available? At least these products are attempting to go in the right direction.

    Whether or not the difference can be felt I don't know yet, but I'm certain this is a question worth asking those with real world experience. Isn't the point of MTBR review to explore and expose marketing claims? We can theorize about this all day, but it seems to me expedient to try for ourselves and report back for the benefit of the members and for accountability of company claims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    You misunderstand, on the point of Syntaceís or anyone elseís marketing claims I am in absolute agreement with you, however in the case of a fellow member who isnít selling anything and has nothing to gain claiming an observed appreciable difference in ride quality and your inference that it is merely a belief I contend that the observation, albeit not taken to the test and refine phase, is a stronger case than your disbelief or doubt. If you aim to convince others that your disbelief in this fellows claim is founded then the burden of providing evidence of a false claim or a reason for doing so falls on your shoulders.

    I applaud your efforts and desire to hold companies to a higher standard of scientific integrity and honesty in advertising, but when you get to the point of shooting down fellow end users for the sake of supporting an argument I believe your passion to have become a disservice. I believe it would have been wiser to pursue a line of questioning toward the claimant in an attempt to understand their perception to further investigate the claim.



    Looking at it from another angle, what if we were to use the stiffest most rigid post available? At least these products are attempting to go in the right direction.

    Whether or not the difference can be felt I don't know yet, but I'm certain this is a question worth asking those with real world experience. Isn't the point of MTBR review to explore and expose marketing claims? We can theorize about this all day, but it seems to me expedient to try for ourselves and report back for the benefit of the members and for accountability of company claims.
    Let's see if we can put a lid on this once and for all.

    If we entertain the idea of that less than 2% of the total damping of the bike, can indeed be noticed (which you would have to have a very sensitive piece of measuring equipment to even measure), it would have to be tuned in with the rest of the damping of the bike to take effect at all.
    About that I doubt you will disagree?

    What we see here, when somebody pops in and tells us about big differences (remember we just found it is less than 2% at best), is marketing at work, at its finest.
    You see exactly this all around you, every day.
    In many cases it is hard to figure, if it is the power of suggestion, that makes you feel or think it is so, or it is in fact for real.

    I work in the medical industry. Here we have the exact opposite problem. We have to get rid of the power of suggestion, to be able to make valid tests and research.
    That is actually harder than most people would think. The human brain will do a lot to not disappoint you, if you believe in something. Most people think that they are in control of this phenomena, but the sad truth is that none of us are.
    The only way to not trick yourself, is to look for reasonably valid proof.
    That you or I think something is in a certain way, is at best basis for further investigation.

    One thing I have learned over the years though, is that very rarely there is no reasonable explanation for an effect. Once claims collide with math or physics, I am yet to see the claims being verified by a valid test.

    Just think back to the other herrings we have seen in the bike industry.

    Like Titanal frames (closely related to the topic at hand), cranks with "power springs", and so forth. Some of those things, took a long time till most people figured they were borderline marketing fraud.
    Lately we have the ceramic bearing show on as well, where marketing departments claim up to 10% power saving (reference for that figure is the company called Ceramic Speed)

    Magura

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    There sure are a lot of claims from end users who say something like this:
    "I had a Thompson post that I loved but I switched to a carbon post to get more dampening and I did prefer the ride of the carbon post."


    Going from a non flexible alum post to a more flexy carbon post seems to be more than marketing to me.

    I will add my opinion too:
    The carbon post I ride on helps me feel more comfortable over a longer ride than my old alum post.
    However, I would say that the seat post change is subtle, it's not a night and day effect to me.
    Changing the seat seemed to do a lot for comfort on my bike, and was like a night and day change.
    Changing my handle bars to carbon was also subtle, until I went down hill.
    When hitting big stuff that makes my front tire stop for a moment.
    The carbon handlebars in some way help me hold onto them better.
    My alum handle bars felt like they were being torn from my hands sometimes on heavy impacts.
    Likewise, when my seat hits my but real hard on a unexpected landing I do not feel the hit as much with my carbon post.
    It feels more like a tap then a hit.

    It's not scientific, it's just a report of how I feel when riding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    If we entertain the idea of that less than 2% of the total damping of the bike, can indeed be noticed (which you would have to have a very sensitive piece of measuring equipment to even measure), it would have to be tuned in with the rest of the damping of the bike to take effect at all.
    About that I doubt you will disagree?
    I do agree, however it is for that very reason I mention the idea of stacking tolerances. It would be foolish to expect a seat post alone to remedy undo harshness, but working in concert with select components and tuning one can and should expect an appreciable difference.

    A point that Iím sure you will agree is that there are not many significant gains to be had on any one place on a bicycle. Itís about the complete package and often squeezing every ounce of gain can be quite an expensive challenge.

    Besides, you have no idea how sensitive my ďequipmentĒ is.

    The idea of perceived attributes through expected results is not new to me and I expected you bring this to the discussion. As I said, if we were to try to isolate the damping effects of the post alone then I agree the net gain would be hardly worth the trouble, but again if you stack the proposed 2% with a hypothetical 2% from a saddle, 3% from carbon bars and soft grips, and 3% from running lower tire pressures Iím hard pressed the believe one would not notice a 10% gain in shock and vibration damping.

    I believe we are at an impasse Mr. Magura. No conclusive evidence exists to support either position. You seem staunch in your opinion that a flexible seat post has no merit and any such claims are better explained through the power of suggestion and wide spread belief. I am of the opinion it best to leave it open ended until such evidence surfaces and am willing to entertain field reports while trying it out for myself.

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    What I noticed on my current bike is that my standard al seat post extended almost to to the max (but not past it!) with a narrow diameter (27.2) is nearly as compliant as my old USE Shock Post. I can see it move if I push on it, it's very comfy. No need for carbon for me unless it's all about shaving some grams.
    Geologist by trade...bicycle mechanic (former) by the grace of God!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TiGeo View Post
    What I noticed on my current bike is that my standard al seat post extended almost to to the max (but not past it!) with a narrow diameter (27.2) is nearly as compliant as mu old USE Shock Post. I can see it move if I push on it, it's very comfy. No need for carbon for me unless it's all about shaving some grams.
    That might very well be the case, as you get quite a bit of travel that way

    I have made a 450mm carbon post for the same reasons, also 27.2mm.

    The ticket to get some travel, is to run small diameters. A 31.6mm is almost twice as stiff.

    Whatever the material, it will render more or less the same result.


    Magura

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    Exactly, I like to use the term compliance because I think travel seems to point towards mechanical suspension movement but yes.
    Geologist by trade...bicycle mechanic (former) by the grace of God!

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    Well TiGeo, if your happy with your set up there really isnít any reason to change, but carbon can offer more compliance if designed to do so and certainly has a greater fatigue life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    Whatever the material, it will render more or less the same result.
    Everything vibrates at it's own natural frequency and every material has a damping coefficient, carbon fiber is imbued with a higher rate of vibration decay and is much less excitable than that of aluminum.

    Another point to consider between metals and composites is isotropy. metals are equally strong and stiff in all directions. Once the cross section geometry of a metal pipe is determined to meet strength or stiffness requirements in one plane, an engineer lacks the freedom to meet varying demands for strength or stiffness in any other plane.

    Composites are anisotropic, their strength and stiffness is only realized along the axis of the fibers which can be arranged in any desired pattern. Thus, composites can be laid up with different fiber angles to posses different mechanical properties in multiple planes, for instance stiff side to side and compliant for and aft.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    Everything vibrates at it's own natural frequency and every material has a damping coefficient, carbon fiber is imbued with a higher rate of vibration decay and is much less excitable than that of aluminum.

    Another point to consider between metals and composites is isotropy. metals are equally strong and stiff in all directions. Once the cross section geometry of a metal pipe is determined to meet strength or stiffness requirements in one plane, an engineer lacks the freedom to meet varying demands for strength or stiffness in any other plane.

    Composites are anisotropic, their strength and stiffness is only realized along the axis of the fibers which can be arranged in any desired pattern. Thus, composites can be laid up with different fiber angles to posses different mechanical properties in multiple planes, for instance stiff side to side and compliant for and aft.
    It's real nice I have you around to educate me regarding composites, what would I do without

    Try measure the natural vibration frequency of a seat post.
    It is in the hundreds of Hz for any post, of any commonly used material. Way beyond anything that applies here.

    If you should ever get around to making something of carbon, you will find out that the problem is the other way around. When there is enough strength, the flexibility for a tube that short and of that big diameter, is very limited.
    So what you can do with carbon, is to keep the stiffness at the minimum that is pretty much dictated by the strength, unless you accept massive weight penalty.
    For a 31.6mm tube, that is pretty stiff.
    The other option carbon offers, is to add stiffness sideways on a seat post, which naturally is beneficial, but not really the topic at hand.


    Magura

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    all i hear is blah blah blah

    Have a beer everybody!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    It's real nice I have you around to educate me regarding composites, what would I do without
    Giving out negative rep because of ones attitude followed by displaying a poor one yourself is quite hypocritical.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Carbon 'bars and seat post for dampening.-mrm.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    Giving out negative rep because of ones attitude followed by displaying a poor one yourself is quite hypocritical.
    Running out of arguments much?


    Magura


    EDIT: Just for the record, that neg was given for playing moderator, in a thread that does not even concern you.
    Last edited by Mr.Magura; 08-25-2012 at 01:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    all i hear is blah blah blah

    Have a beer everybody!
    reprise

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    Running out of arguments much?
    This began as a discussion, you simply became indignant towards anyone who would post a comment that would seem to challenge your views.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    Just for the record, that neg was given for playing moderator, in a thread that does not even concern you.
    Not playing moderator, but rather make an appeal to stop producing talk that would alert a moderator, no reason it should concern me less than any other HBC customer. I would bet you wouldnít have bothered caring except you were cross with me over the discussion here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    Try measure the natural vibration frequency of a seat post.
    It is in the hundreds of Hz for any post, of any commonly used material. Way beyond anything that applies here.
    Did you mean to say kHz? My mentioning of natural resonance was meant to lead toward my main point of materials possessing different damping coefficients-

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    Everything vibrates at it's own natural frequency and every material has a damping coefficient, carbon fiber is imbued with a higher rate of vibration decay and is much less excitable than that of aluminum.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    If you should ever get around to making something of carbon, you will find out that the problem is the other way around. When there is enough strength, the flexibility for a tube that short and of that big diameter, is very limited.
    So what you can do with carbon, is to keep the stiffness at the minimum that is pretty much dictated by the strength, unless you accept massive weight penalty.
    For a 31.6mm tube, that is pretty stiff.
    The other option carbon offers, is to add stiffness sideways on a seat post, which naturally is beneficial, but not really the topic at hand.
    While I find your point about size and shape relevant to the topic overall, itís apples to oranges in terms of my point about isotropy. Not presupposing to educate you, but the fact that metals will exhibit the same mechanical properties in all directions and composites will be dependent on how the fibers are laid not unlike grain in wood does seem apropos to the discussion.

    I am no expert to be sure, but years back I was under the employ of GT bicycles thermoplastics division so Iím not completely green to the topic of composites.

    Let me shift gears here Magura, I donít have a beef with you and I certainly do not mean to arouse your frustration. There really is no need to be dismissive or condescending, you are not being attacked personally.

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    Dudes, all you gotta do is pick up two alum bars and bang them together hard, to feel their painful resonance.
    Do the same thing with two carbon bars and it's totally deadened and without pain.

    You don't need heavy thinking to demonstrate the dampening benefits of carbon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    Dudes, all you gotta do is pick up two alum bars and bang them together hard, to feel their painful resonance.
    Do the same thing with two carbon bars and it's totally deadened and without pain.

    You don't need heavy thinking to demonstrate the dampening benefits of carbon.


    I would love for you to be right on this one.

    I actually expected it to be so as well, but was proven painfully (literally) wrong, when doing some damage testing of a carbon tube a couple of months ago.

    Let's just say that next time I do such testing, I will wear some heavy work gloves!

    It was to test what kind of damage a frame tube I had made, would see from hitting a square edge of concrete. It was done with a 45mm diameter carbon tube, approx 900mm long.

    Magura

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    Which alum post did you compare it to?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post


    I would love for you to be right on this one.

    I actually expected it to be so as well, but was proven painfully (literally) wrong, when doing some damage testing of a carbon tube a couple of months ago.

    Let's just say that next time I do such testing, I will wear some heavy work gloves!

    It was to test what kind of damage a frame tube I had made, would see from hitting a square edge of concrete. It was done with a 45mm diameter carbon tube, approx 900mm long.

    Magura

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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    Which alum post did you compare it to?
    A 2mm tube of the same diameter.


    Magura

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    Magura, you spoiled the surprise!
    I was waiting for all the neg reps of people who tried it and then cursed for 10 mins shaking hands. lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    Magura, you spoiled the surprise!
    I was waiting for all the neg reps of people who tried it and then cursed for 10 mins shaking hands. lol
    Oups


    It was however a surprise to me, that the carbon was actually THAT much worse.

    Man that hurt.


    Magura

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    Get the tyre/rim width and pressure right and you won't need "comfort" components.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barteos View Post
    Get the tyre/rim width and pressure right and you won't need "comfort" components.
    BOO

    That's like saying get a bike with 7 inches of rear travel and it will solve all the problem in the universe.
    I don't agree, that any one single component can make up for the cumulative effect that many components have when combined.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    BOO

    That's like saying get a bike with 7 inches of rear travel and it will solve all the problem in the universe.
    I don't agree, that any one single component can make up for the cumulative effect that many components have when combined.
    Pressure/volume will make dramatically more difference than any "solid" (posts, bars etc...) bike components.
    If the tyres can't cope with small-medium bumps and high frequency vibrations then they aren't doing the job they were invented for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barteos View Post
    Pressure/volume will make dramatically more difference than any "solid" (posts, bars etc...) bike components.
    If the tyres can't cope with small-medium bumps and high frequency vibrations then they aren't doing the job they were invented for.
    I agree with you, swapping to a large volume tubeless tire setup with lower pressure is the single most significant thing of all the things I have done to my bike.

    However, it does not take anything away from the benefits I have enjoyed from my carbon seat post and handle bars and stem etc and cushy grips.

    They all add something to the ride and none of them alone, could make up for loosing all the others.

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    I've never noticed any differences between various bars and posts but some saddles with more "give" were slightly more comfortable.
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    Bumping this to ask what people's opinions are on the best carbon bars for vibration dampening.

    Looking at the Niner RDO and Easton Haven at the moment...

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigwheelsRbest View Post
    Bumping this to ask what people's opinions are on the best carbon bars for vibration dampening.

    Looking at the Niner RDO and Easton Haven at the moment...
    The topic your asking about, with a little searching, you should find a number of deep-dive threads .

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigwheelsRbest View Post
    Bumping this to ask what people's opinions are on the best carbon bars for vibration dampening.

    Looking at the Niner RDO and Easton Haven at the moment...




    Saddle, grips, gloves and tires first. If you have those dialed in then you will see minimal improvements (if any) by switching to carbon. I used the Niner bar and honestly didn't find any quantifiable improvement. Gloves and grips are where I achieved the most rewards. YMMV.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty $anchez View Post
    Saddle, grips, gloves and tires first. If you have those dialed in then you will see minimal improvements (if any) by switching to carbon. I used the Niner bar and honestly didn't find any quantifiable improvement. Gloves and grips are where I achieved the most rewards. YMMV.
    Well, ahem, I have to disagree with you on that one DS. I have a decent set of aluminium bars on a Reba squishy that is more uncomfortable than some cheap X-Lite carbon bars on a rigid carbon fork - both steel frames with similar saddle, grips, gloves and tyres.

    (I'd go with the same brand carbon bars again but can't find them anywhere)

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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    The topic your asking about, with a little searching, you should find a number of deep-dive threads .
    I'm useless with this new search feature. Can't find anything I look for - it always comes up with unrelated crap

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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    BOO

    That's like saying get a bike with 7 inches of rear travel and it will solve all the problem in the universe.
    I don't agree, that any one single component can make up for the cumulative effect that many components have when combined.
    Tyres aren't just one of the many components. They make all the difference.

    They are your simple and effective suspension system which when set up correctly should offer you 1-2" or more travel. Shame that so many people still haven't worked out how to use it...
    In comparison flex of all other (rigid) components is negligible.

    If you can't get enough comfort from your tyres, let some air out.
    If you can't do it due to the risk of pinch flats, rim strikes or instability, you're running too narrow tyres and/or rims for your weight and riding conditions.

    Most of people simply put too much air in their tyres because they still hold beliefs that more PSI makes them faster...
    Well, hello it's 2013 not 1990!

    Just to give you some example, I run a pair of Racing Ralphs 2.10 on my strange 26" drop bar commuter and any more pressure than 20PSI FR and 30PSI rear (15% tyre drop method) does NOT make me faster at all, just less comfortable. (220lb total rider+bike+ kit). That's on tarmac!

    Meanwhile it's not uncommon for many riders to run way above 30 or 40PSI... on smooth trails. Why? You're NOT getting any faster!
    www.bartthebikeman.wordpress.com
    fast 26" road bike, shaven Racing Ralphs as road tyres, homemade "Paul thumbies"...

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigwheelsRbest View Post
    Well, ahem, I have to disagree with you on that one DS. I have a decent set of aluminium bars on a Reba squishy that is more uncomfortable than some cheap X-Lite carbon bars on a rigid carbon fork - both steel frames with similar saddle, grips, gloves and tyres.

    (I'd go with the same brand carbon bars again but can't find them anywhere)


    One set of aluminum bars as a metric is not going to yield good results.

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    Carbon 'bars and seat post for dampening.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigwheelsRbest View Post
    Bumping this to ask what people's opinions are on the best carbon bars for vibration dampening.

    Looking at the Niner RDO and Easton Haven at the moment...
    I love my haven carbon bars.
    Cut to the length that suites you best.
    I like that they have a slight flex so which takes the shock down a notch from my factory alum bar. My old bars sometimes bucked me loose but the new bars are a little pliable making it easier to hang on when under serious stress like seen in down hill situations or rough rock gardens.

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    Carbon 'bars and seat post for dampening.


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    Carbon 'bars and seat post for dampening.


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    Carbon 'bars and seat post for dampening.

    I'll post here in Endurance XC to keep it with us lemmings. :-)

    I just picked up some new Thomson Riser bars. 730mm and super light(182 grams). I too have hand issues and "need/want" the dampening for longer rides. My current wide DH stiff Alu bars result in a sore hand with anything over 2-3 hours.
    One thing that surprised me was the Thomson brochure for these bars said they should be replaced after one year of hard racing or 3 year max. This is the first time I've seen anyone put a expected lifetime limit on handle bars. Any thoughts?

    Cheers,
    Mike

  69. #69
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    I have the RDO post and LOVE IT.
    Geologist by trade...bicycle mechanic (former) by the grace of God!

    2012 Specialized Stumpy EVO 29 HT

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    I have the Easton Haven and love it. It actually helped me to decide between bikes. Went with an aluminum frame over a carbon frame because I could plop the carbon seatpost on there for comfort instead of a carbon frame. Made a huge difference.

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    I may have missed it somewhere but has anyone discussed softball bats in this thread? If you want to know about dampening with aluminum vs carbon, get yourself on a softball equipment forum. Those guys can educate all of us on dampening and materials.

    My personal anectdotal experience with different bats is that not all alloys of aluminum and not all weights and layups carbon are created equal. I have a Worth EST aluminum bat that is a dream to hit with. I had a carbon fiber Miken that rattled my teeth. I had a Mizzuno carbon fiber bat that is as soft on the hands as my Worth. Unfortunately, all three of those bats have beed outlawed for league play as they were all 100+mph bats... Not that I could get that kind of speed out of them....

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