24HOA Conyers, GA
So, I just saw a post on our local board that said the 24HOA at Conyers has changed the date to 10/8-9 instead of 10-15/16....no email notification whatsoever...and I'm on their distribution list for sure. Luckily for me, the date change isn't a huge deal. But, I am not sure I want to do this race anyway....the SOLO entry fee is $305 :eek: :eek: :eek: ...and may I ask why??? :confused:
What do we, as solo riders, get for a $305 entry fee that we don't get at the less expensive 24 hour races? I've raced 24HOA as a team in the past, and I did my first 24 solo this past year and paid $200...which isn't cheap either...but at least they had better prizes!
Has anyone from TwentyFourSports read this? http://forums.mtbr.com/endurance-xc-racing/survey-what-constitutes-good-24-hour-race-113404.html
How do others feel?
I just got a email from them.
Anybody have an idea why they have to change?
Another post said sorry but no refunds. That's BS when people plan in advance to the point of preregistering and then are told there is a new date and there are no refunds. What about weddings or any of a host of other preplanned things for the other weekend.
24HOA is full of it. I wouldn't give them my money if I were you.
Is it just me or...
Is it just me, or is 24 HOA starting to top everyones "You Suck List"?
Seems that way to me. This might be my last year racing their events unless they change their views on the sport...price of fees...and venue locations that are only in California and the far east coast. What about everyone else not living in California or on the East Coast.
I see a firey ball falling thru the sky at a high rate of speed!
If you paid via credit card, you might be able to get it back.
Originally Posted by jimbo
Flip the card over, call the 800 number, and give them an earful...
But as Tom Waits says "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."
That sucks. Good luck.
I WAS planning to do Conyers solo this year but am having to check the date change. Yea, I was planning to suck up the cost and do the race but not b/c of Twenty Four Sports and their great race promotion -- I was ONLY planning to do it b/c it's in my back yard and I love riding / racing at Conyers.
I agree with the sentiment expressed about the 24HOA series. There are way too many other races out there that don't cost as much and you get much more in return. You would think that with the sponsors 24 HOA gets, costs should be lower an there'd be more return for ALL riders.
Here's my deal with 'em: we pay TOO much money to do the race AND we provide their labor! Are we all sick in our heads? I have done at least one enduro each month this year and have yet to do either of the above at any of them. And ya know what? I had more fun than I ever have at Conyers. That course kicks back no matter how many times you ride it and how well you know it.
I've been thinking actually of heading to Moab for the Granny Gear race. I've never ridden Moab and I figure if I'm gonna spend a butt load of cash on a race, it might as well be someplace really stinkin' cool!
Nam, what d'ya think? You, Eddie and I could head to Moab! On another note, are you doing SM100? I'm torn between that and a staying local and racing a sprint triathlon. ORAMM's sustained climbs kicked my butt and I'm not sure I'm ready for that sort of demoralizing race so soon after.
Conyers is the best course, I agree. Especially for a 24hour. We need a new promoter to come in and run a 24 there! Anyone up to it? :D
Originally Posted by k2biker
Sorry, can't make it to Moab this year. Too much going on.....and yes, we're heading to SM100. You should too. ;)
I did Southern Lights 24/7 for the first time this year and was shocked there were no manditory work assignments. Not that it is a big stretch to find a volunteer while on a team, but how can this race do so much more on a smaller budget than the 24HOA people?
Here's my deal with 'em: we pay TOO much money to do the race AND we provide their labor!
It's b/c Scott and Jimmy at SL24-7 are way cool! I've done that race since it's inception in 2003 and those guys never fail to exceed expectations. God willing, I will do that race until I die or cannot ride a bike anymore.
To clear the air! - Conyers
First let me say that it's truly unfortunate that the date has had to move to the 8/9. We unfortunately have a choice; move the event as we have done or cancel it. Riders have told us they prefer the move over cancellation.
With regards to the refund policy... NEVER have we said that a team or solo rider could not have a full refund... NEVER! For those of you out there posting faults statements you are damaging the sport... get you facts correct first.
As for the post regarding fees etc; I appreciate each individuals right to speak your mind. Please note that Granny Gears fees are substantially move than ours for example. Do your fact checking before posting. Speaking of Granny Gear... Larid Knight sued Trilife two years ago and the company was lost to bankruptcy. NOTE... he sued use for the rules for 24 hour racing... I ask the question who should control the rules? He sued us for the use of "24 Hours of _______" anything... that's right folks....
Thanks for the reponse.
I did want to clarify, that, I am looking at this from the point of a solo rider. Teams have to pay, what, roughly $100 per person for their entry. Teams of 2 have to pay $205 per person. Then you have the solos that have to pay $305 per person. And, the solo riders are not even going to get to enjoy the other parts of the event. They will either be riding around in circles or sleeping. In my opinion, there is no justification to charge the solo riders that much more than the other competitors.
And, as far as Granny Gear goes...sure their fees might be more expensive...but each year there are more and more 24 hour events and other endurance events to choose from, and most of them are not as pricey.
I thought the other thread on "What Constitutes a good 24 hour race" was a really good one for Race Promoters to read. Some good suggestions on there.
Anyway, thanks again for the response.
Yes it’s been a difficult couple of years... with the complete loss of the company that started 24 Hours of Adrenalin December 3, 2003. Since that time, after Larid Knight's (Granny Gear) lawsuit a staff of 10 lost there jobs and we are currently down to a very small staff. We had to cancel all our development events because we could no longer finance losing efforts. Our level of customer service has dropped because of a reduced staff and we are working hard to ensure fun safe events continue. Jeff you ask why no events other than California or the East Coast... 24 Hours event are popping up all over North America and I for one think this is great for you the riders. I know that we have played a very important roll in developing 24-hour events across North America and the World... I'm proud of what we have been able to accomplish.
Originally Posted by KERKOVEJ
Jeff you have a very active voice in the 24-hour community and you can chose to use it in a positive or negative manor.
my commitment is too continue running positive events in the communities we are currently hosting events. It is my goal to provide event weekends welcoming all levels of riders and to work in a positive manor to assist in developing the sport as best we can.
I hope that you would wish us well,
Not The Truth!
NEVER have we said that a team or solo rider could not have a full refund... NEVER! For those of you out there posting faults statements you are damaging the sport... get you facts correct first.
Originally Posted by jimbo
From what I can see you haven't said that refunds are available either. Which is it?
Originally Posted by twenty4 sports
If refunds are available how does one go about it?
Originally Posted by wooglin
I have just been givin the heads up that this thread is out ther. I am sorry to my fellow racers who lose out when stuart changes the date of events or cancels them without thinking of the athletes. It is funny I just emailed him the other day that he was hurting himself by doing this sort of Sh*t.
As far as his answer that it was change the date or cancel, that is bull...I think he has been having such a sucky year, he changed the date because he thought he would get more riders if it was on a opposite weekend as Moab..you are really going to try to tell us, that the GA event site, changes the date on you..come on, contracts were signed along time ago, and if it did happen to be the case, where were you looking out for your riders?
24 Hours of Pisgah
You know, I started a 24 hour race last year . Wow what an eye opening experiance. I advertised and gave (even more than I advertised) all the things I thought were lacking. When I worked out a budget it cost way more than I dreamed to put on the race. Everyone wants a piece of you. You have to get around $100 bucks per person. Well this year I am doing even more than last year, down to a free party with live music for the racers after the race so they can enjoy it. I have free cabins, hot showers,darnd good entry packets. I give a hydration pack or simalar prize to racers at random when they come in. We have drawings, we have a lot of vendors, we have music. We have it all. You know If you want a quality race from someone who races themselves. Look around. Give them a chance. The Burn, Southern Lights. All good races from the little guy. Check out http://enduroadventures.com Give us a shot.
oh by the way..you do not see granny gear mentioned in a negative way inhere, by anyone execpt, twenty 4 sports.
Oh, and also for the record, I was told I could not have a refund for my 400 entry fee into worlds..the only reason I requested a refund, or entry into another 24 event, was do to the fact I am ill with mono, and will not be recovered in time to compete. I have raced at worlds 2 previous times..along with other 24 hour events of theirs, paid them thousands of bills....for him to reply to my email that people like me ruin the sport..funny I thought we were keeping him in business..
I have no problems with your events. They are first class. They are a good time. They do bring out the best in personal performace. I would never talk-down a race or race promoter unless I have a good reason. I am looking forward to World's in Whistler this year, and so are many many others. In fact I have participated in 3 of your events...24 Hours of Winter Park, '02 Worlds, '04 World's, and soon to be '05 World's. In all honesty, I would have never attended these events if it were not for sponsors footing 99.999% of the entry fee. I personally feel that your fees for solo racers is high. When I look at events around the country, they range from $35 to $150 to race at other 24 hour events. Granted you have a moving road show to haul around so I see where you need to charge more.
If I could request a few things to make your events better in my book...
1. Make the race dates. Keep the race dates.
2. Hold your events around the country...West coast, east coast, SE, Midwest, Etc. There is so much potential out there for a new crowd to draw in.
3. Lower the fees...please :rolleyes:
4. Low key is good. We don't need a circus. I will gladly pay less it helps.
I took on the challenge of puting on my own race this year. Yes, it was not near the status of the 24HOA, but I have a good idea of what you are/will go through. Can I have my entry back? Can we move the date? Why this? Why that? Etc. Etc. Etc. I got all kinds of e-mails. I do feel your pain.
Please, I beg you please, think hard and long about what you are/will do in the future. The sport at a higher level does depend on you...me...Granny Gear...racers...and all the little unknown events around the world.
prices for 24 hour events
Venue fees (stiff) porta johns, insurance, advertising (flyers,magazine ads; people need to know the date etc. even stiffer) at least a t-shirt, course marking materials, emt, trail work, web-site, entry forms, bib numbers, medals, trophys or what ever . I know I have left stuff out but this is the minimum. A cross country race is around $25 and if you do a series you will most likely stay in a motel for some, and if you are lucky and place, you might even get a pair of socks and then get to drive home. Yes the Horse Park can do what ever they want to do. A promoter is at the mercy of the venue. Without the course what do you have? Nothing.
I am only a local promoter of 24 hour events in Ontario, Canada. Event promotion is a tough business, and I've been doing this for 10 years at a local level.
I will not go into any details about my "battles" with Trilife/Twenty4 Sports, but Stuart always seems to bring up the Granny Gear lawsuit and is still playing the blame game 1.5 years later.
Stuart, you were a great marketer, but made many enemies along the way. I will say you've had a positive impact on the sport, ran some terrific events, and took 24 hour events across North America....great! Laird introduced 24 hour mtb racing and will always be the father of the sport, (I've never been to his events, but I call him from time to time....a nice guy). Start producing better events, and listening to your competitors, or do something else....period. The blame game will get you nowhere, and you've played that tune too long!
Never have I never stated that I started 24 hour racing... larid did. Producing great events is what we have been doing for years and yes these days we are challenged due to the lawsuit from Granny Gear against Trilife... the point is that he wants to own the rules and regulations to 24 hour mountain biking and if he would have won, precedence would have been set and everyone would need to pay the piper. The shear fact that you and larid spoke during the lawsuit speaks volumes. Continue putting on great events, and enjoy kicking a man when he is down.
Originally Posted by chicoracing
I just like to race my bike.
I know how hard it is to put on a "NORBA" type event, I can only imagine how difficult it must be to put on a 24 hour event especially coming all the way from the Great White North.
I appreciate the efforts you all make to give us a fun event.
Personally, I will be at Pisgah and Conyers ;) plus I did Big Bear earlier in the year.
Maybe I can come back in late Oct and give a review of all three :).
Thanks again to all you promoters for putting the races on.
Originally Posted by twenty4 sports
You scheduled an event for Hardwood last year, and changed venues a month and a half before without offering refunds. I registered a number of teams for my competing event who were really mad you wouldn't give them refunds as they didn't like your new venue - some walked away from deposits, some from full entries.
What is your refund policy for a change of date? Similar to a change of venue?
As for my use of "24 Hours of _______" - you are such a hypocrite. You tried bullying me with the same crap once.
Whenever anyone questions your pricing, or events, you tell them they are hurting the sport. This is absolutely ridiculous as you are a for profit company and are accountable to your customers.
Last year you published mistruths about my company and that didn't sit well with me at the time. From my angle the only one to blame for your business problems is you.
P.S. It wasn't all legal fees you took care of with your bankruptcy was it Stuart?
Stuarts policy regarding refunds, Qoute
For those of you who would like to believe Stuart when he says that he has never said no about refunds,I would like to bring to light an email which was sent between Stuart and I,
I have been seeking any type of refund for Worlds this year, due to the fact that I have fell ill with mono. I even suggested to just transfer my registreation to another event once I feel better. This was 2 weeks ago with the initial email.
Someone brought this forum to my attnetion last night. I did some posting and then emailed Stuart, that I had read that he said that they have never said they will not refund, and I thought that was cool, because he originally told me NO REFUND> so I said I would look forward to hearing from him concerning my refund.
I then sat down to go to bed and actually started to feel bad for him, I did post some hurtful stuff.
Then I went to my email to see if he had wrote back..keep in mind, I am a rider, who tarvels all over the country, and pay for everything myself..I do not have health insurance, and now I have big doctors bills.I need every penny I can find.
So I check my email..and he did write back..his professional response, qoute..
"Stop bothering me"
very nice. As a bussiness man, he should remember, this is not a game. His disregard to me as a customer, does not sit well.
I heard through the grape vine that the reason the staff is no longer with the 24 hrs of adrenaline is not because they were all "Let go" it is because they all quit. Couldnt put up with Stuart. All the staff last year and all the staff this year walk out.
Hummm I wonder why?????
What bothers me most about twenty4sports is they changed the date without regard to any of the local organizations. SORBA, who has always supported and helped twenty4sports, stands to lose a lot of money due to the date change. The Tumbling Creek race which is a huge fund raiser for SORBA is on Oct 8-9. The Tumbling Creek race date was not set until AFTER twenty4sports published their dates. I am really not happy with twenty4sports at all for this date change.
One thing I'm not seeing mentioned here about the Granny Gear races: I just noticed last week that they have a deal with the American Lung Association that if you raise $400 for ALA, you race for free.
Therefore, Granny Gear is giving us -- the riders -- a way to participate for free AND they are giving something back. For this, I give Laird props. That's why I make the statement that for all practicle purposes, I can fly from Atlanta to Moab and do the race there cheaper than I can race 20 minutes from home. Again, I'm with Namrita in that I'm looking at this as a solo competitor. Can I come up with $400? You bet - my sponsors would love to pitch in on that one!
I sent Stuart a note the other day stating that I'd volunteer my time to help with set up and during the race at Conyers instead of paying to race -- two days later, no response. Given I've heard that they're a bit short handed, I thought he would have jumped on my offer. I'll gladly help out b/c I have many friends who are racing so I'd actually be helping them out too! If he doesn't want my help, I'll go cook for someone and drink some Terrapin Beer all weekend!
hmmm, Stuart stiffed Heather....this ain't good! Um, if you haven't seen her results, you should check 'em out. It would have been pretty sweet to have her around these parts.
Hope you get to feeling better, Heather! BTW, I loved the time I spent in the Upstate region. There's nothing better than hiking Gothics, Armstrong and Lower (maybe it was Upper?) Wolfjaw in February -- except maybe hiitin' Mt Marcy!
Happy trails. I gotta get back to work.
Now you're calling me a liar. I am only quoting this person from the Sorba Forum:
Originally Posted by twenty4 sports
Obviously this person was lying. He never really emailed you and you never really emailed him back.
Finally, a note for those considering bailing on 24HOA. I was told via reply to my email, "They can't do refunds"!
Thanks, I was actually considering helping out some friends who needed a fifth (I figured they had already paid and thus 24HOA already had the money), but with this crap, fuggitaboudit.
I know Jimbo's post was dripping with sarcasm but just so everyone will know, the guy who posted that on the SORBA forum is someone who is really involved, well known, respected, knows what's up and is in contact with the race coordinators of many different organizations.
Originally Posted by jimbo
I guess the only way *we* are going to win here is if we go elsewhere. 24 hours of Pisgah this year, and several others next year..
Originally Posted by jimbo
Thanks, I've learned a lot by reading this thread.
I'll never do another race held by 24S as last year I felt the blame game rant before the race and the fee hike constantly going up since my first 24 race in 1999 was too much. I will instead ride the smaller less expensive races and enjoy them knowing I didn't break my wallet and still get to compete against top class folks.
Same with our local series. It has turned to crap! I'm now starting to do adventure races and 12/24 hour events as the regular MTB XC here in GA blows!
just a quick fyi, Stuart is in Whistler right now setting up for Worlds, I'd expect a delay in email comms with him.
Originally Posted by k2biker
My only real beef
Do a Granny Gear solo and enjoy a 50% payback for the podium.
Do an Adrenalin event and get a plaque or a Hydrapak. Be told the money goes to the World championships. Notice how much easier it gets to qualify for the World's every year in order to draw more participants.
Realize I can just do other events for closer to $100(like the Burn 24 hour race) and, as a solo rider, still not enjoy anything other than riding for 24 hours. I only benefit from post race meals and prizes. Midnight corn-roasts and fireworks do nothing for me.
Promoters can do what they want. It's their race afterall. If people don't like it they will stop coming. Look at Snowshoe with attendance dropping @ 50% over 3-4 years. It is easy to consider an event prestigious when they spend a lot of money on advertising, but some of us just want a good time with good friends. I just spent over $2000 on the Trans Rockies, but I had an original experience. How many 24 hour races are offering something new for the money after all these years??
**Never been a promoter, never will be. Just the views of a former(and still sometimes) competitor.
It's actually $800 for solo racers, $400 per member on a team. I raised $1000 last year for Temecula and I'm planning on doing the same for Moab. I think it's a great thing that GG does for the American Lung Association, I hope it continues for a long, long time...
Originally Posted by k2biker
Direcly from an email exchange
I won't be able to make to the WSC this year. I emailed Stuart yesterday about it before reading Heathers blog and her situation. As I was drinking my coffee this morning settling into work I found this post. Now I wouldn't normally consider posting an email exchange in a public forum but in this case I though it might actually be helpful.
The following is the full email exchange between Stuart and I. Besides the expensive solo entry fees, I am bothered that I have to wait until November to find out about my situation. And perhaps with this post I can kiss my entry fee good bye.
I understand and we will look at it after the season is completed. The policy states no refunds, but as I mentioned we will look at this in November. Sorry but thats the best we can do right now.
On Aug 17, 2005, at 5:52 PM, orange oppa wrote:
Perhaps there was a misunderstanding. I don't want a refund I just want to apply the entry fee to either next year's WSC or to a different Adrenalin event. Or if those two aren't viable options is it possible to say apply it to a friends entry fee that isn't paid in full yet (assuming of course that it's not paid in full yet...I haven't checked yet)?
sorry to hear you are unable to make it this year. Currently our refund policy (that each athlete accepts during the registration process) states that there are no solo refunds. At the end of the season (November) we will look at each scenario, but can't promise anything other than our policy at this time.
again sorry that we will not see you this year and please follow up in November with us.
On Aug 17, 2005, at 1:04 PM, orange oppa wrote:
I sent an email some time ago asking if I could transfer my entry fee from this year to next year's WSC or to a different Adrenalin event. Due to family circumstances, I will not be able to particpate in the WSC this year.
sorry to hear that everyone is having bad news with adrenalin. I do feel in my gut that we will not see are refunds ever.
I had to chime in,
I have participated in 3 24hoa's.
I have had great fun and loads of success with Aaron, Kevin and most of the pervious 24hoa staff, however, the owner is a rude and argumentative individual with no concept of customer service or really how to speak to people :mad: .
I have never had a race director speak to me, or at me, like Stuart has. :confused:
The only reason I continue to do 24hoa is due to the fact that I see so many of my friends and cycling compadre's at these events, the fun and camaraderie is exceptional.
Maybe Stuart could take lessons in etiquette from the Southern Lights gang, or better yet, let's get everyone in Metro Atlanta out to Southern Lights next year.
I second the kudos for 24-7. what a great bunch of folks! I appreciated the fact that the organisers came through after dark and asked if I needed anything.
Originally Posted by gmanatlanta
despite the rain I had a great time!
one of my favorite moments from the race: a volunteer at the first water station at 3 a.m. or so, in a pouring rain, singing (and doing a credible job) "you've lost that lovin' feeling" -- kept me chuckling all the way through to mile 5, where my brakes ceased to work. but no matter, crashing in the mud was goooey and soft
having read all the above, looks like I'm opting out of conyers and shooting for 24 HOP instead. I wont be participating in the N.U.M.B.A though, unless my rash clears up by then :)
I will be there
24 sports - sorry to buck the trend on here but I will be there ready to race. Dates sometime have to change and yes it is expensive to enter. However, my time is worth money and a few hundred bucks for me to have fun all weekend long is well worth it. Come on people, it is a bike race. Let some positive energy flow and if you have to opt out due to other obligations maybe you could look for someone who wants to race and have them take your place and pay you back. Life is too short to worry about stuff like this. Hope to see everyone out there.
I am having similiar issues with Stuart and 24HOA. I am registered for the 24 hours of HC in September. Unfortunately, I have become injured and will not be able to attend. I emailed Stuart and requested a transfer to another event. He responded, a week later I might add, indicating that there are no refunds per policy, but may consider a transfer after the end of the season in November.
Originally Posted by hmosley
I asked for a copy of this policy that is apparently not posted on the website and I still have not received a response, which was over two weeks ago. This is just ridiculous. This operation has just gone down the tubes. Not only is this one of the most expensive events out there, they also require volunteers to staff the events? Whats up with that? :mad:
I would really be suprised if I do another one of their events. There are so many other events that are cheaper and much better run. I don't need to support a promoter with this type of attitude.
what comes around goes around
funny - i see who is viewing this thread right now - hi guys!
it looks like November is some sort of specail date promise from 24 sports - based on other promises they have not followed through on, i suggest you call your credit card company and challenge the charge on your card
Well, with all the money they collect with that $10/per person "web usage" fee when you register, they should have plenty left over to refund those affected by their date change at least. Geez.
$10 web usage fee ! ?
Whats next? Wal-Mart charging for parking.
As a former promoter I can't help but chime in on all the "no refund" complaints. I've raced for 17 years and have yet to enter a race that offers a refund if you get sick, injured, the dog eats your homework, etc.. Some allow transfers to other events, some don't, it is often a grey area, and seems to be so with 24 HoA. It does not appear to me like Adrenalin is out of line with what other promoters offer, regardless of what the outcome is in November.
Once a promoter hands out a single refund they get bombarded by dozens more requests for refunds. It is a good way to go clinically insane. Don't believe it? Put on a race & try it yourself. Barring massive screw up by the promoter, the only sensible refund policy is no refunds at all.
If a promoter changes the date that is different, but so far I haven't seen anyone who got bumped from Conyers complain that they could not get a refund. Anyone here in that boat? Did I miss someone?
Just my $0.02 from a past life on the other side of the aisle.
Originally Posted by kretzel
Agreed! And like I was saying. Donate your spot to someone who can't afford it if you can't make it due to the date change. Same goes for the person with Mono. Or, follow the Nike moto - Just shut up and race. :)
I would LOVE to race..but the only problem is that I can't afford it. So, Mr. Lotus, if you have $320 to sponsor me...I will race Solo Female. Or, if there is anyone out there that can't use their entry due to the date change, I'll gladly take the donation, and will "shut up and race". Thanks.
Originally Posted by Lotus
market forces at work
We are seeing good old fashioned market forces at work. Which, by the way, include free sharing of opinions/reviews of products/events, and a percentage of people taking their racing dollars elsewhere after their assessment of available info. In this regard, seems to me like the solo racers are a more sensitive barometer of "product" than the teams.
Originally Posted by Lotus
No doubt fun will be had by all participants, solo or team. after all, mtbr's arent exactly a bunch of shoe gazers.
As far as the validity of peoples beefs with 24 sports, they would be poor businessmen/women to not come away with some useful info from this thread in how to improve their business..
so, pay and race this one or not, but please, folks, dont "shut up" about it. I found this thread very informative. :cool:
This is a forum, after all, and if everyone "shuts up" that don't make for a very lively forum, does it? :D
Refunds, Donating entry fee, Nam you want my entry?
I don't have not problem with the refund thing. That's standard with most races I've done.
What I thought was silly and bothered me the most was not being able to transfer my entry fee to another Adrenalin event. I don't see what the problem is with that. Enlighten me. I could have raced Hurkey or Fountain hills solo but since I won't know till November I've already changed my race schedule. I don't ever plan on shutting up but I'll still race. :D
As far as donating or transferring my fee to another racer perhaps you didn't read my previous post. Didn't sound like that was an option. BUT... If namrita shoots off an email to Stuart about transferring my solo entry fee to her and he say's yes them I'm game with that. Someone might as well get some fun out of it. Disputing the charges through the credit card company is not an option for me because I paid back in April...more then 60 days have passed.