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  1. #101
    Grizzly
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    /sarcasm

    you guys are just kicking a man when he is down!

    /sarcasm off

    I've been involved in 3 Granny Gear events ( 3 24 hours of Moab) and they have been great events. Are they expensive? Yes. Do I leave the venue feeling like I got my money's worth? Yes.

    I used to really want to compete at Whistler in the "Worlds". Now? Forget it. I woudn't race in a 24 Hour$ of Adrenalin event if it were free. I like what Heather Mosely said, let's make Moab the premier 24 hour event in the country. Each year top pros are there racing solo and on teams. The course is top notch, the accomodations are plenty. Laird does a good job, and puts on a great show.

    And to answer Stuey's question...of course Laird should own the rules. He wrote them. It is that simple Stuey. Want to use them? Then pay the piper as you say. Otherwise write your own rules...oh wait...sounds like you are doing that right here in this forum. Unfortunatley people don't seem to want to play by them.
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  2. #102
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    24 Hoa

    Ok ok...I am not Ignatz, I am his wife. I've read this crap and Ignatz clued me in and I couldn't believe all this crap!

    Stuart...I've volunteered so many hours at the 24 HOA and when I needed assistance or had a question to ask you, you were a complete and utter A** to me. You treated me like I was nothing. You completely snubbed me. I may be a female and I don't mountain bike, but my husband and my money are supporting your whining a**! One would be wise to keep his pie hole shut or you are going to end up eating sh** because you burned yourself. Thank goodness for the others at 24 HOA like Ryan and the guy that works in the retail tent (sorry I don't remember your name)...they made it for the riders and volunteers. They were nice, they treated people like they should be treated. Get a clue...look at Jeff's site, even after you suspended him for posting an opinion...actually it was a suggestion, a suggestion that was politely posted, he doesn't speak ill will toward you or the 24 HOA organizaiton. He proved to be the bigger person...heck the adult for that matter! Why do you have to be this way? Do you honestly think you are ALL THAT? Do you realize how many other racing events that are soooo much cheaper are out there? Ones where everyone is laid back and nice, ones where the track is better? You have a huge EGO that needs to be shot down. We had to listen to your speech year after year regarding the lawsuit...do you actually think your lies can't be proven to be lies? Court papers are public information...these riders are not stupid! You need to be responsible for your actions, your mouth, and you screwing over your creditors and the riders. I agree...that if a rider doesn't make a race then they don't get the refund...however, you changed it, they should get their refund and/or use it toward another race. You are creating your own "BAD BUSINESS". I think you did the racing community a huge injustice by being an A** and banning Jeff from the events! Oh...if you are going to post and try to make yourself seem like some highly intelligent individual...you might want to proofread your responses because you can't spell worth sh** and you don't use the words in the correct manner. (manor...you used and get a clue it's manner!)
    "I read a Russian novel once," Anderson cut in bleakly. "People with unpronounceable names did nothing for seven hundred and eighty-three pages, after which somebody's aunt died."

  3. #103
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    Got a buddy (Howie) that thinks JeffK walks on water. They raced against each other at the 24 of 9 mile. Jeff has helped Howie with training questions, setting up a schedule, etc. Howie ended up with a 5th place finish at 24/9. It was his first ever 24 hour solo event, and he's 45 years old! I don't know Jeff personally, but I know if Howie thinks that highly of a person, he must be a decent guy. Howie has kept our club up to date on this thread and the controversy (there really isn't one) with Stuart keeping him out of 24HOA events. It's a shame, and dare I suggest the MTBR staff remove 24HOA advertisements from this site?

    I think Jeff's original comment was "Is it just me, or is 24 HOA starting to top everyones "You Suck List"?"

    Seems to me that Stuart kicking Jeff out of 24HOA events just proves Jeff that much more correct!!! As an XC and Big Hit race organizer, myself, I would never, ever ask for the banning of one of our best racers. If a good racer is saying you have problems, you probably do, and need to step back and look at your system. Banning him or her only proves THEIR point. Shame on you, Stuart. Oh, and this continued dumping of blame for 24HOA's current situation on the lawsuit, etc., is just pitiful. Your attitude toward the lawsuit just falls in line with your apparent juvenile business ethics.
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  4. #104
    Jabberwocky Jockey
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    Geez, I cannot believe what a total dick Sturat is (although we got some indication last year in GA with his tirade at the start, Sturat is also a bit of a drama queen).

    OK, I am not going to contibute alot to bashing Sturat, I just want to say a couple of things.

    I have ridden 6 GGP races and Laird is a straight up guy. I got to ride with him some at Snowshoe last year (does sturat even ride a bike?) and his passion for the sport really shows. It also shows in the way he treats his volunteers and racers.

    I have ridden 2 24 HOA events and, although I had fun, they aren't the same quality as GGP races and cost more to enter.

    and banning Jeff for saying something you don't like?????????

    WTF is that about? Dude, you need to get over yourself. I don't know about Canada but one of the freedoms we have here is we can say whatever the hell we want.

    If I was Jeff, I'd sue your ass for my entry fee back plus any damages (although if he won, he'd probably not get it anyway).

    Do the right thing. Let Jeff race or just keep on burning bridges, it's a long walk back to Canada.
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  5. #105
    Alright, let's ride!
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    Stuart, not sure if you care or not but this thread certainly seems to be getting some publicity. At the moment there are 51 people viewing this thread; 25 members and 26 guests. Is this really the image you want people that are interested in 24 hour races to have of your company?

    Seems like a public apology to Jeff would really help your image out right about now.

  6. #106
    rey
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    Quote Originally Posted by LowCel

    Seems like a public apology to Jeff would really help your image out right about now.

    Too late for that from my perspective. If he halved the price I still wouldn't ride his events, and Conyers is local for me.

    Mr. Dorland's pre-race speech should be a real corker this year, tho

  7. #107
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    To Chico and Larid

    Why dont you guys organize an unofficial world champs?

  8. #108
    Alright, let's ride!
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    I don't really have any intentions of doing any of his events either. The only 24 hour races I really plan on doing this year are 24 hours of big bear and possibly 24 hours of pisgah. I had a blast at 24 hours of big bear earlier this year. I had a chance to talk to Laird before the race and I must say it completely changed my opinion of the man. I had heard some story's about him (not worth mentioning) but after I spoke to him I forgot all about them. His passion for the sport is amazing. Not too mention how much he has done as far as 24 hour races go.

    BTW Laird, how is the Maverick treating you? That bike looked amazing.

    From everything that I have read here I don't see any reason to give someone like Stuart any of my money no matter how much the event costs.

    Anyone have any details about the "tirade" at the beginning of the 24 hour race in GA that Darkwing duck spoke of earlier?

    BTW, currently 80 users viewing this thread, 22 members, 48 guests.

  9. #109
    BGR / MCM #311
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    Yeah...I'd be interested in what Stuey's speech consisted of before the race.

    All we ever tell our racers is the standard "don't cut trail, don't get physical with other riders, don't be a dick" speech and away they go. Just before a race is no time to give an editorial...the racers aren't listening to you anyway...they're focussed on the task at hand and don't give a crap about the promoter's problems at that point.
    Boogers and Birthdays....the more you have...the harder it is to breath

  10. #110
    mp3
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    Not only Chico and GG

    How about including some of the other races from around the country? Create a series. Maybe even give to top one or two M/F solos a free entry/trip to the Kona Global Championships?

  11. #111
    DLd
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    Way to pi$$ off a vocal and non-apathetic market Stuart.

    This being my first year in 24 hr racing, some 24HOA events were in the cards. Distance and timing were schedule friendly for me. Being that I'm not the type to sit back and say nothing when I see something wrong happening, the situation has changed. Using intimidation to quell dissenting opinions and discussion by banning Jeff Kerkove from the Worlds and 24HOA events is wrong, unethical, unAmerican, and just plain stupid. I will not be doing any 24HOA events this year, or any year in the future (and from the way Stuart runs things, it seems like the future for 24HOA will be short anyway). I will be doing the 24 hours in the Old Pueblo, the Soul Ride, and hopefully 4 events in 2006, including 24 hours of Moab, the Payson 24 Hour Stampede, and the Ford 24 Hour Champion Challenge in Seven Springs PA, maybe the E100 in Utah just because I heard really good things about it and the promoter. No 24HOA events.

    Stuart, YOU are hurting our sport (and lasciviously mangling your own company I might add)

    Jeff K, I look forward to racing against you in the future and shaking your hand.

    Don

  12. #112
    Sofa King We Todd Did
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    Can one person influence an entire sport? If you take a step back and consider the potential fallout of this dramafest, it is possible.

    Stuart Dorland appears to have suspended Jeff Kerkove's ability compete in his racing series. Sponsors will find out about this, and while they might still leave their money in the series in the near term, they're bound to be examine this series with far greater scrutiny for future sponsorships. If they pull out of sponsoring this multi-race series, then the series is in jeopardy and might shut down. If the series collapses, then the sponsored racers will have fewer events to race. With fewer events to race, there are fewer consumer impression, which means that sponsors will then also cut back on the sponsorship money they provide to the racers to showcase their products at these competitive events. Less money for the racers means it gets that much harder to compete (a vicious cycle there), and much harder to make it worth their while to race. When the money dries up for races and racers, the sport goes into a downhill spiral unless manufacturers can find a different way to showcase their products. But let's be honest, without a competitive platform, how in the world is a manufacturer expected to showcase the product? More importantly, without competition, where's the drive to innovate and advance the technology?

    Nice domino effect there, Twenty4 Sports.

  13. #113
    mp3
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    That's one way to look at it

    Quote Originally Posted by SpinWheelz
    Can one person influence an entire sport? If you take a step back and consider the potential fallout of this dramafest, it is possible.

    Stuart Dorland appears to have suspended Jeff Kerkove's ability compete in his racing series. Sponsors will find out about this, and while they might still leave their money in the series in the near term, they're bound to be examine this series with far greater scrutiny for future sponsorships. If they pull out of sponsoring this multi-race series, then the series is in jeopardy and might shut down. If the series collapses, then the sponsored racers will have fewer events to race. With fewer events to race, there are fewer consumer impression, which means that sponsors will then also cut back on the sponsorship money they provide to the racers to showcase their products at these competitive events. Less money for the racers means it gets that much harder to compete (a vicious cycle there), and much harder to make it worth their while to race. When the money dries up for races and racers, the sport goes into a downhill spiral unless manufacturers can find a different way to showcase their products. But let's be honest, without a competitive platform, how in the world is a manufacturer expected to showcase the product? More importantly, without competition, where's the drive to innovate and advance the technology?

    Nice domino effect there, Twenty4 Sports.

    That's only one of several possibilites. Suppose Chico, Laird and some of the other race promoters step up and create a series, say a North American series.

    I'm sure there are enough passionate, moutain bike riding entrepreneurs out there that would fill the void.

  14. #114
    Topeak-Ergon Racing
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpinWheelz
    Can one person influence an entire sport? If you take a step back and consider the potential fallout of this dramafest, it is possible.
    You lost me after when Twenty4 Sports goes away. If this happens there will certainly be other promoters to step in and provide what the consumers and sponsors want. That's the way our market works and that's exactly what would happen in Conyers and else where.

    Eddie O

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by fireboy
    Got a buddy (Howie) that thinks JeffK walks on water. They raced against each other at the 24 of 9 mile. Jeff has helped Howie with training questions, setting up a schedule, etc. Howie ended up with a 5th place finish at 24/9. It was his first ever 24 hour solo event, and he's 45 years old! I don't know Jeff personally, but I know if Howie thinks that highly of a person, he must be a decent guy. Howie has kept our club up to date on this thread and the controversy (there really isn't one) with Stuart keeping him out of 24HOA events. It's a shame, and dare I suggest the MTBR staff remove 24HOA advertisements from this site?

    I think Jeff's original comment was "Is it just me, or is 24 HOA starting to top everyones "You Suck List"?"

    Seems to me that Stuart kicking Jeff out of 24HOA events just proves Jeff that much more correct!!! As an XC and Big Hit race organizer, myself, I would never, ever ask for the banning of one of our best racers. If a good racer is saying you have problems, you probably do, and need to step back and look at your system. Banning him or her only proves THEIR point. Shame on you, Stuart. Oh, and this continued dumping of blame for 24HOA's current situation on the lawsuit, etc., is just pitiful. Your attitude toward the lawsuit just falls in line with your apparent juvenile business ethics.
    Well some people and things never change.
    This is not the first time that Stuart has banned someone from racing his events ( for calling him on his attitude and greed). After 9 years and bringing many teams and so many new racers to his events, we took our charity teams to Chico Racing 3 years ago. Adam is well respected and shows respect in return. He's responsible for building some of the best single track trails in Ontario and working in cooperation with venues/Conservation areas. He runs a fun, grass roots event with honesty and integrity. He started as a racer and built a fine little company that takes what it should and gives back so much and his love of the sport is obvious.
    Stuart, I'm afraid you're just digging a bigger hole here. You'd be wise to not respond, stop this unprofessional bantering and try to fix/redeem your company ( if it's not already too late). On second thought... you should probably just move on now. You had a great well organized event but you got greedy, plain and simple. Great marketing, lousy customer care.
    And while I'm at it...this sport is way bigger than one guy and one company. This little episode will not hurt the "sport". It's not like there are no other 24 hour MTB events out there to do. There are plenty of fun events if you're in it for the right reason. Ween yourselves from the idea that you need to do that particular Solo Championship and try something new. There is life after trilife (24sports)

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by reddevil
    Why dont you guys organize an unofficial world champs?
    Newflash: There is currently no 24hr solo world championship event, and never has been. For it to be a world championship it has to be recognized by the UCI. Since the UCI can barely get deep quality fields into most of the new XC Marathon World Cups, they certainly aren't going to be looking at 24hr racing anytime soon.

    24hr racing is a fun, grassroots type event. For anyone to take a "world championship" event seriously including the UCI, it would be reasonable to expect the best competitors to attend. With all due respect to the riders placing on the podium at the bigger 24hr events (because they are excellent athletes whose physical capabilities dwarf ours in most cases), there's a large gap between them and a quality World Cup XC rider.

    I'll wager that you could take the top 50 riders from any Euro World Cup, drop them into a 24hr race with little or no extra training required, and probably push the usual 24hr suspects much lower down in the results. The riders usually finishing around 5th place or below would drop right off the bottom of the sheet.

    The need to make 24hr racing into a serious world class event is misplaced. If it ever does get that level of recognition, then 99.9% of the people reading this won't be participants, we will be on the sidelines. If you think that's where 24hr racing should go, then I'll just continue scratching my head and wonder why.

  17. #117
    Grizzly
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    Newflash: There is currently no 24hr solo world championship event, and never has been. For it to be a world championship it has to be recognized by the UCI. Since the UCI can barely get deep quality fields into most of the new XC Marathon World Cups, they certainly aren't going to be looking at 24hr racing anytime soon.

    24hr racing is a fun, grassroots type event. For anyone to take a "world championship" event seriously including the UCI, it would be reasonable to expect the best competitors to attend. With all due respect to the riders placing on the podium at the bigger 24hr events (because they are excellent athletes whose physical capabilities dwarf ours in most cases), there's a large gap between them and a quality World Cup XC rider.

    I'll wager that you could take the top 50 riders from any Euro World Cup, drop them into a 24hr race with little or no extra training required, and probably push the usual 24hr suspects much lower down in the results. The riders usually finishing around 5th place or below would drop right off the bottom of the sheet.

    The need to make 24hr racing into a serious world class event is misplaced. If it ever does get that level of recognition, then 99.9% of the people reading this won't be participants, we will be on the sidelines. If you think that's where 24hr racing should go, then I'll just continue scratching my head and wonder why.
    I think you are way off. The top 24 hour guys are doing just fine in the XC events they are riding in. It's possible that the top XC guys would do well in a 24 hour event yes, but I don't think they'd bump the field down like you are saying.
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  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    I think you are way off. The top 24 hour guys are doing just fine in the XC events they are riding in. It's possible that the top XC guys would do well in a 24 hour event yes, but I don't think they'd bump the field down like you are saying.
    Eatough is the best 24hr racing has. He finished 11th at the Mont St. Anne World Cup Marathon XC;

    http://www.uci.ch/modello.asp?1stlev...=0&idnews=3568

    Note that the list of finishers above Eatough would hardly qualify as any sort of deep field from a World Cup standpoint. Most of the better racers didn't bother crossing the pond for the 2005 North American World Cups, XC or Marathon.

    While a 24hr event is a slightly different animal, the abilities of a marathon XC race at that level will transfer over fairly closely to the longer events with minimal retraining.

    Feel free to post/share any results that prove your point. Don't get me wrong, our 24hr guys are amazing by normal human standards. A dose of realism is required in this case though.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2 wrongs
    I guess the lesson learned here is "What comes around goes around".

    So very true.

    btw.. try a Chico event. They're great!

    www.chicoracing.com

    I also like the idea of a series of 24 hour events from various promoters. It would be great to see Nat Ross, or Cameron Chambers riding @ Albion Hills.
    Last edited by bigwheelboy_490; 08-31-2005 at 05:40 PM.
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  20. #120
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    it's tough to say

    that the top XC racers could dominate 24 hour racing. can a sprinter win a marathon? can a distance runner beat a sprinter? the two are different animals. the top XC racers "may" dominate for the first 6 hours but can they keep it up for a full 24? some may be able to yet others may bonk like there's no tomorrow. having never done a solo 24 I can only guess that it takes and entirely different training regimen and fitness level to succeed than it does doing 3 hour races.

    YR

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yeti_Rider
    that the top XC racers could dominate 24 hour racing. can a sprinter win a marathon? can a distance runner beat a sprinter? the two are different animals. the top XC racers "may" dominate for the first 6 hours but can they keep it up for a full 24? some may be able to yet others may bonk like there's no tomorrow. having never done a solo 24 I can only guess that it takes and entirely different training regimen and fitness level to succeed than it does doing 3 hour races.
    Agreed on most points. Some additional thoughts though;

    1) I suspect that the training regimens for a traditional XC racer (speaking about a full-time world class pro) are very similar to our top 24hr racers. Read up on the training routines for Eatough or Cameron Chambers sometime, and you'll discover they're doing a lot of sessions focusing on higher intensity, and not riding 5-6 hours days multiple times per week year round, other than perhaps some early season base building. That's going to look a lot like a standard XC pro, who will be pulling 15-30hr weeks at different times in the year. The top 24hr guys have demonstrated proficiency with some of the other intangibles of mental and emotional qualities also. No doubt some of the standard top XC racers wouldn't make the grade in these areas, but many of them probably would. They're trained to suffer, and they spend long, long hours in the saddle training.

    2) Let's use your example of runners, which is a great comparison to discuss the quality of the field in a 24hr event. If I watch the Olympics, I could pick almost any running discipline from 100m, to 1500m, to marathon, and if an athlete finishes 5th or 10th, then I'd be reasonably confident that's pretty close to their actual place in the entire world's population at that time (including runners from other distances) give or take a few spots.

    In XC racing, a rider who finishes 5th or 10th at the UCI world championships is probably pretty close to being the 5th or 10th best XC rider in the world if we were able to have the entire world's population participate (a silly hypothetical example, of course). However, if we were able to take the entire world's population and put them in a 24hr race, including all the other cyclists from all other discplines, do you think that Chris, or Tinker, or Cameron, etc. would still win? Maybe, or maybe not. They'd certainly be competitive, but they'd have their hands full for sure. After that, do you still think the 10th place finisher from the 24HOA WSC event would still finish anywhere near that placing? They'd be a great rider for sure, but not a chance. I'm quite sure there would be literally hundreds of other riders in the mix.

  22. #122
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    Have you ever raced a solo 24hour race??
    Probably not, otherwise you wouldnt have this view.
    I know plenty of top notch XC pros who wouldn't even think about doing a 24 hour race.
    Why? Because it is more than just riding your bike.
    It takes a whole lot more than going all out for 2 hours or so.
    I just wish you would go try to do a solo 24 hour race and see if you make it longer than a few hours.
    jesus rides a fixed gear.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by twenty4 sports
    Yes it’s been a difficult couple of years... with the complete loss of the company that started 24 Hours of Adrenalin December 3, 2003. Since that time, after Larid Knight's (Granny Gear) lawsuit a staff of 10 lost there jobs and we are currently down to a very small staff. We had to cancel all our development events because we could no longer finance losing efforts. Our level of customer service has dropped because of a reduced staff and we are working hard to ensure fun safe events continue. Jeff you ask why no events other than California or the East Coast... 24 Hours event are popping up all over North America and I for one think this is great for you the riders. I know that we have played a very important roll in developing 24-hour events across North America and the World... I'm proud of what we have been able to accomplish.

    Jeff you have a very active voice in the 24-hour community and you can chose to use it in a positive or negative manor.

    my commitment is too continue running positive events in the communities we are currently hosting events. It is my goal to provide event weekends welcoming all levels of riders and to work in a positive manor to assist in developing the sport as best we can.

    I hope that you would wish us well,

    Stuart

    Hey Stuart. Why do you call Jeff, Jeffy? Was that derogatory (big word Stuey... break out your dictionary)? Why wontcha let Jeff (or is it Jeffy) race? Can't handle a little gentle criticism? Stu ( can I call you Stu?) you are a douchebag. Please ban me from all 24HOA events as well.

    p.s. I try to be nice when I post, but you you brought this on

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by KonaEnduroJC
    Have you ever raced a solo 24hour race??
    Probably not, otherwise you wouldnt have this view.
    Yep. Best not to start a pissing contest of that nature, unless you're sure which side of the contest you're going to come out on.

    Anyhow, this is getting way off topic. My point is not to slag the abilities of top 24hr competitors. They have amazing physical capabilities, and lots of other intangible qualities. My point is that what we currently call a "world solo championship" is not to be taken as seriously as some people are making it out to be. Aside from a small minority of riders, the rest of us are part-timers doing this as a hobby.

    24hr solo racing is my hobby also. I take it very seriously within the context that my life allows. I even have some nice hardware to show for it. However, I take off my rose-colored glasses and don't make the mistake of over-indulging in what this means in terms of my place in the racing world, which is very low in the grand scheme of things. It's called reality.

    Were the "pros" you talked to full-time paid professionals without a regular job who tour the World Cup circuit? There's a huge difference between that and the "Pros" category riders in your local race series.

  25. #125
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    Once interested in 24HOA

    I had been talking about doing 24 HOA for the past year. I thought it was really a good event...then a friend informed me of the posting on this forum. I have never witnessed such an unprofessional promoter as Stuart, based on his comments.

    As far as Laird is concerned, there's NO need for him to reply to this post any further due to the fact you, Stuart, have already ruined your reputation.

    One thing you need to think about Stuart. Mountain bikers are like family. People from all walks of life with different professions such as road workers to doctors. When mountain bikers are brought together there is usually mutual respect through the passion of the sport/ lifestyle. My point, everyone has or will see this forum. Try to show respect for other mountain bikers if you truly do care by not furthering this insanity. Reinstate Jeff.

    About Larid, yes, he does own the rules for his 24 hour series. He wrote them!

    If I may, considering these poor people that are suffering in the South due to Katrina, it is very sad we all (including myself) worry about someone such as Stuart and his 24HOA. Some things are more important than your series Stuart. Frankly, I'm seeing a sad, sad fella only hurt himself.

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