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  1. #101
    Grizzly
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    /sarcasm

    you guys are just kicking a man when he is down!

    /sarcasm off

    I've been involved in 3 Granny Gear events ( 3 24 hours of Moab) and they have been great events. Are they expensive? Yes. Do I leave the venue feeling like I got my money's worth? Yes.

    I used to really want to compete at Whistler in the "Worlds". Now? Forget it. I woudn't race in a 24 Hour$ of Adrenalin event if it were free. I like what Heather Mosely said, let's make Moab the premier 24 hour event in the country. Each year top pros are there racing solo and on teams. The course is top notch, the accomodations are plenty. Laird does a good job, and puts on a great show.

    And to answer Stuey's question...of course Laird should own the rules. He wrote them. It is that simple Stuey. Want to use them? Then pay the piper as you say. Otherwise write your own rules...oh wait...sounds like you are doing that right here in this forum. Unfortunatley people don't seem to want to play by them.
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  2. #102
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    24 Hoa

    Ok ok...I am not Ignatz, I am his wife. I've read this crap and Ignatz clued me in and I couldn't believe all this crap!

    Stuart...I've volunteered so many hours at the 24 HOA and when I needed assistance or had a question to ask you, you were a complete and utter A** to me. You treated me like I was nothing. You completely snubbed me. I may be a female and I don't mountain bike, but my husband and my money are supporting your whining a**! One would be wise to keep his pie hole shut or you are going to end up eating sh** because you burned yourself. Thank goodness for the others at 24 HOA like Ryan and the guy that works in the retail tent (sorry I don't remember your name)...they made it for the riders and volunteers. They were nice, they treated people like they should be treated. Get a clue...look at Jeff's site, even after you suspended him for posting an opinion...actually it was a suggestion, a suggestion that was politely posted, he doesn't speak ill will toward you or the 24 HOA organizaiton. He proved to be the bigger person...heck the adult for that matter! Why do you have to be this way? Do you honestly think you are ALL THAT? Do you realize how many other racing events that are soooo much cheaper are out there? Ones where everyone is laid back and nice, ones where the track is better? You have a huge EGO that needs to be shot down. We had to listen to your speech year after year regarding the lawsuit...do you actually think your lies can't be proven to be lies? Court papers are public information...these riders are not stupid! You need to be responsible for your actions, your mouth, and you screwing over your creditors and the riders. I agree...that if a rider doesn't make a race then they don't get the refund...however, you changed it, they should get their refund and/or use it toward another race. You are creating your own "BAD BUSINESS". I think you did the racing community a huge injustice by being an A** and banning Jeff from the events! Oh...if you are going to post and try to make yourself seem like some highly intelligent individual...you might want to proofread your responses because you can't spell worth sh** and you don't use the words in the correct manner. (manor...you used and get a clue it's manner!)
    "I read a Russian novel once," Anderson cut in bleakly. "People with unpronounceable names did nothing for seven hundred and eighty-three pages, after which somebody's aunt died."

  3. #103
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    Got a buddy (Howie) that thinks JeffK walks on water. They raced against each other at the 24 of 9 mile. Jeff has helped Howie with training questions, setting up a schedule, etc. Howie ended up with a 5th place finish at 24/9. It was his first ever 24 hour solo event, and he's 45 years old! I don't know Jeff personally, but I know if Howie thinks that highly of a person, he must be a decent guy. Howie has kept our club up to date on this thread and the controversy (there really isn't one) with Stuart keeping him out of 24HOA events. It's a shame, and dare I suggest the MTBR staff remove 24HOA advertisements from this site?

    I think Jeff's original comment was "Is it just me, or is 24 HOA starting to top everyones "You Suck List"?"

    Seems to me that Stuart kicking Jeff out of 24HOA events just proves Jeff that much more correct!!! As an XC and Big Hit race organizer, myself, I would never, ever ask for the banning of one of our best racers. If a good racer is saying you have problems, you probably do, and need to step back and look at your system. Banning him or her only proves THEIR point. Shame on you, Stuart. Oh, and this continued dumping of blame for 24HOA's current situation on the lawsuit, etc., is just pitiful. Your attitude toward the lawsuit just falls in line with your apparent juvenile business ethics.
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  4. #104
    Jabberwocky Jockey
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    Geez, I cannot believe what a total dick Sturat is (although we got some indication last year in GA with his tirade at the start, Sturat is also a bit of a drama queen).

    OK, I am not going to contibute alot to bashing Sturat, I just want to say a couple of things.

    I have ridden 6 GGP races and Laird is a straight up guy. I got to ride with him some at Snowshoe last year (does sturat even ride a bike?) and his passion for the sport really shows. It also shows in the way he treats his volunteers and racers.

    I have ridden 2 24 HOA events and, although I had fun, they aren't the same quality as GGP races and cost more to enter.

    and banning Jeff for saying something you don't like?????????

    WTF is that about? Dude, you need to get over yourself. I don't know about Canada but one of the freedoms we have here is we can say whatever the hell we want.

    If I was Jeff, I'd sue your ass for my entry fee back plus any damages (although if he won, he'd probably not get it anyway).

    Do the right thing. Let Jeff race or just keep on burning bridges, it's a long walk back to Canada.
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  5. #105
    Alright, let's ride!
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    Stuart, not sure if you care or not but this thread certainly seems to be getting some publicity. At the moment there are 51 people viewing this thread; 25 members and 26 guests. Is this really the image you want people that are interested in 24 hour races to have of your company?

    Seems like a public apology to Jeff would really help your image out right about now.

  6. #106
    rey
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    Quote Originally Posted by LowCel

    Seems like a public apology to Jeff would really help your image out right about now.

    Too late for that from my perspective. If he halved the price I still wouldn't ride his events, and Conyers is local for me.

    Mr. Dorland's pre-race speech should be a real corker this year, tho

  7. #107
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    To Chico and Larid

    Why dont you guys organize an unofficial world champs?

  8. #108
    Alright, let's ride!
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    I don't really have any intentions of doing any of his events either. The only 24 hour races I really plan on doing this year are 24 hours of big bear and possibly 24 hours of pisgah. I had a blast at 24 hours of big bear earlier this year. I had a chance to talk to Laird before the race and I must say it completely changed my opinion of the man. I had heard some story's about him (not worth mentioning) but after I spoke to him I forgot all about them. His passion for the sport is amazing. Not too mention how much he has done as far as 24 hour races go.

    BTW Laird, how is the Maverick treating you? That bike looked amazing.

    From everything that I have read here I don't see any reason to give someone like Stuart any of my money no matter how much the event costs.

    Anyone have any details about the "tirade" at the beginning of the 24 hour race in GA that Darkwing duck spoke of earlier?

    BTW, currently 80 users viewing this thread, 22 members, 48 guests.

  9. #109
    BGR / MCM #311
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    Yeah...I'd be interested in what Stuey's speech consisted of before the race.

    All we ever tell our racers is the standard "don't cut trail, don't get physical with other riders, don't be a dick" speech and away they go. Just before a race is no time to give an editorial...the racers aren't listening to you anyway...they're focussed on the task at hand and don't give a crap about the promoter's problems at that point.
    Boogers and Birthdays....the more you have...the harder it is to breath

  10. #110
    mp3
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    Not only Chico and GG

    How about including some of the other races from around the country? Create a series. Maybe even give to top one or two M/F solos a free entry/trip to the Kona Global Championships?

  11. #111
    DLd
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    Way to pi$$ off a vocal and non-apathetic market Stuart.

    This being my first year in 24 hr racing, some 24HOA events were in the cards. Distance and timing were schedule friendly for me. Being that I'm not the type to sit back and say nothing when I see something wrong happening, the situation has changed. Using intimidation to quell dissenting opinions and discussion by banning Jeff Kerkove from the Worlds and 24HOA events is wrong, unethical, unAmerican, and just plain stupid. I will not be doing any 24HOA events this year, or any year in the future (and from the way Stuart runs things, it seems like the future for 24HOA will be short anyway). I will be doing the 24 hours in the Old Pueblo, the Soul Ride, and hopefully 4 events in 2006, including 24 hours of Moab, the Payson 24 Hour Stampede, and the Ford 24 Hour Champion Challenge in Seven Springs PA, maybe the E100 in Utah just because I heard really good things about it and the promoter. No 24HOA events.

    Stuart, YOU are hurting our sport (and lasciviously mangling your own company I might add)

    Jeff K, I look forward to racing against you in the future and shaking your hand.

    Don

  12. #112
    Sofa King We Todd Did
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    Can one person influence an entire sport? If you take a step back and consider the potential fallout of this dramafest, it is possible.

    Stuart Dorland appears to have suspended Jeff Kerkove's ability compete in his racing series. Sponsors will find out about this, and while they might still leave their money in the series in the near term, they're bound to be examine this series with far greater scrutiny for future sponsorships. If they pull out of sponsoring this multi-race series, then the series is in jeopardy and might shut down. If the series collapses, then the sponsored racers will have fewer events to race. With fewer events to race, there are fewer consumer impression, which means that sponsors will then also cut back on the sponsorship money they provide to the racers to showcase their products at these competitive events. Less money for the racers means it gets that much harder to compete (a vicious cycle there), and much harder to make it worth their while to race. When the money dries up for races and racers, the sport goes into a downhill spiral unless manufacturers can find a different way to showcase their products. But let's be honest, without a competitive platform, how in the world is a manufacturer expected to showcase the product? More importantly, without competition, where's the drive to innovate and advance the technology?

    Nice domino effect there, Twenty4 Sports.

  13. #113
    mp3
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    That's one way to look at it

    Quote Originally Posted by SpinWheelz
    Can one person influence an entire sport? If you take a step back and consider the potential fallout of this dramafest, it is possible.

    Stuart Dorland appears to have suspended Jeff Kerkove's ability compete in his racing series. Sponsors will find out about this, and while they might still leave their money in the series in the near term, they're bound to be examine this series with far greater scrutiny for future sponsorships. If they pull out of sponsoring this multi-race series, then the series is in jeopardy and might shut down. If the series collapses, then the sponsored racers will have fewer events to race. With fewer events to race, there are fewer consumer impression, which means that sponsors will then also cut back on the sponsorship money they provide to the racers to showcase their products at these competitive events. Less money for the racers means it gets that much harder to compete (a vicious cycle there), and much harder to make it worth their while to race. When the money dries up for races and racers, the sport goes into a downhill spiral unless manufacturers can find a different way to showcase their products. But let's be honest, without a competitive platform, how in the world is a manufacturer expected to showcase the product? More importantly, without competition, where's the drive to innovate and advance the technology?

    Nice domino effect there, Twenty4 Sports.

    That's only one of several possibilites. Suppose Chico, Laird and some of the other race promoters step up and create a series, say a North American series.

    I'm sure there are enough passionate, moutain bike riding entrepreneurs out there that would fill the void.

  14. #114
    Topeak-Ergon Racing
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpinWheelz
    Can one person influence an entire sport? If you take a step back and consider the potential fallout of this dramafest, it is possible.
    You lost me after when Twenty4 Sports goes away. If this happens there will certainly be other promoters to step in and provide what the consumers and sponsors want. That's the way our market works and that's exactly what would happen in Conyers and else where.

    Eddie O

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by fireboy
    Got a buddy (Howie) that thinks JeffK walks on water. They raced against each other at the 24 of 9 mile. Jeff has helped Howie with training questions, setting up a schedule, etc. Howie ended up with a 5th place finish at 24/9. It was his first ever 24 hour solo event, and he's 45 years old! I don't know Jeff personally, but I know if Howie thinks that highly of a person, he must be a decent guy. Howie has kept our club up to date on this thread and the controversy (there really isn't one) with Stuart keeping him out of 24HOA events. It's a shame, and dare I suggest the MTBR staff remove 24HOA advertisements from this site?

    I think Jeff's original comment was "Is it just me, or is 24 HOA starting to top everyones "You Suck List"?"

    Seems to me that Stuart kicking Jeff out of 24HOA events just proves Jeff that much more correct!!! As an XC and Big Hit race organizer, myself, I would never, ever ask for the banning of one of our best racers. If a good racer is saying you have problems, you probably do, and need to step back and look at your system. Banning him or her only proves THEIR point. Shame on you, Stuart. Oh, and this continued dumping of blame for 24HOA's current situation on the lawsuit, etc., is just pitiful. Your attitude toward the lawsuit just falls in line with your apparent juvenile business ethics.
    Well some people and things never change.
    This is not the first time that Stuart has banned someone from racing his events ( for calling him on his attitude and greed). After 9 years and bringing many teams and so many new racers to his events, we took our charity teams to Chico Racing 3 years ago. Adam is well respected and shows respect in return. He's responsible for building some of the best single track trails in Ontario and working in cooperation with venues/Conservation areas. He runs a fun, grass roots event with honesty and integrity. He started as a racer and built a fine little company that takes what it should and gives back so much and his love of the sport is obvious.
    Stuart, I'm afraid you're just digging a bigger hole here. You'd be wise to not respond, stop this unprofessional bantering and try to fix/redeem your company ( if it's not already too late). On second thought... you should probably just move on now. You had a great well organized event but you got greedy, plain and simple. Great marketing, lousy customer care.
    And while I'm at it...this sport is way bigger than one guy and one company. This little episode will not hurt the "sport". It's not like there are no other 24 hour MTB events out there to do. There are plenty of fun events if you're in it for the right reason. Ween yourselves from the idea that you need to do that particular Solo Championship and try something new. There is life after trilife (24sports)

  16. #116
    No. Just No.
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    Quote Originally Posted by reddevil
    Why dont you guys organize an unofficial world champs?
    Newflash: There is currently no 24hr solo world championship event, and never has been. For it to be a world championship it has to be recognized by the UCI. Since the UCI can barely get deep quality fields into most of the new XC Marathon World Cups, they certainly aren't going to be looking at 24hr racing anytime soon.

    24hr racing is a fun, grassroots type event. For anyone to take a "world championship" event seriously including the UCI, it would be reasonable to expect the best competitors to attend. With all due respect to the riders placing on the podium at the bigger 24hr events (because they are excellent athletes whose physical capabilities dwarf ours in most cases), there's a large gap between them and a quality World Cup XC rider.

    I'll wager that you could take the top 50 riders from any Euro World Cup, drop them into a 24hr race with little or no extra training required, and probably push the usual 24hr suspects much lower down in the results. The riders usually finishing around 5th place or below would drop right off the bottom of the sheet.

    The need to make 24hr racing into a serious world class event is misplaced. If it ever does get that level of recognition, then 99.9% of the people reading this won't be participants, we will be on the sidelines. If you think that's where 24hr racing should go, then I'll just continue scratching my head and wonder why.

  17. #117
    Grizzly
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    Newflash: There is currently no 24hr solo world championship event, and never has been. For it to be a world championship it has to be recognized by the UCI. Since the UCI can barely get deep quality fields into most of the new XC Marathon World Cups, they certainly aren't going to be looking at 24hr racing anytime soon.

    24hr racing is a fun, grassroots type event. For anyone to take a "world championship" event seriously including the UCI, it would be reasonable to expect the best competitors to attend. With all due respect to the riders placing on the podium at the bigger 24hr events (because they are excellent athletes whose physical capabilities dwarf ours in most cases), there's a large gap between them and a quality World Cup XC rider.

    I'll wager that you could take the top 50 riders from any Euro World Cup, drop them into a 24hr race with little or no extra training required, and probably push the usual 24hr suspects much lower down in the results. The riders usually finishing around 5th place or below would drop right off the bottom of the sheet.

    The need to make 24hr racing into a serious world class event is misplaced. If it ever does get that level of recognition, then 99.9% of the people reading this won't be participants, we will be on the sidelines. If you think that's where 24hr racing should go, then I'll just continue scratching my head and wonder why.
    I think you are way off. The top 24 hour guys are doing just fine in the XC events they are riding in. It's possible that the top XC guys would do well in a 24 hour event yes, but I don't think they'd bump the field down like you are saying.
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  18. #118
    No. Just No.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    I think you are way off. The top 24 hour guys are doing just fine in the XC events they are riding in. It's possible that the top XC guys would do well in a 24 hour event yes, but I don't think they'd bump the field down like you are saying.
    Eatough is the best 24hr racing has. He finished 11th at the Mont St. Anne World Cup Marathon XC;

    http://www.uci.ch/modello.asp?1stlev...=0&idnews=3568

    Note that the list of finishers above Eatough would hardly qualify as any sort of deep field from a World Cup standpoint. Most of the better racers didn't bother crossing the pond for the 2005 North American World Cups, XC or Marathon.

    While a 24hr event is a slightly different animal, the abilities of a marathon XC race at that level will transfer over fairly closely to the longer events with minimal retraining.

    Feel free to post/share any results that prove your point. Don't get me wrong, our 24hr guys are amazing by normal human standards. A dose of realism is required in this case though.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2 wrongs
    I guess the lesson learned here is "What comes around goes around".

    So very true.

    btw.. try a Chico event. They're great!

    www.chicoracing.com

    I also like the idea of a series of 24 hour events from various promoters. It would be great to see Nat Ross, or Cameron Chambers riding @ Albion Hills.
    Last edited by bigwheelboy_490; 08-31-2005 at 06:40 PM.
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  20. #120
    "Ride Lots" - Eddie Mercx
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    it's tough to say

    that the top XC racers could dominate 24 hour racing. can a sprinter win a marathon? can a distance runner beat a sprinter? the two are different animals. the top XC racers "may" dominate for the first 6 hours but can they keep it up for a full 24? some may be able to yet others may bonk like there's no tomorrow. having never done a solo 24 I can only guess that it takes and entirely different training regimen and fitness level to succeed than it does doing 3 hour races.

    YR

  21. #121
    No. Just No.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yeti_Rider
    that the top XC racers could dominate 24 hour racing. can a sprinter win a marathon? can a distance runner beat a sprinter? the two are different animals. the top XC racers "may" dominate for the first 6 hours but can they keep it up for a full 24? some may be able to yet others may bonk like there's no tomorrow. having never done a solo 24 I can only guess that it takes and entirely different training regimen and fitness level to succeed than it does doing 3 hour races.
    Agreed on most points. Some additional thoughts though;

    1) I suspect that the training regimens for a traditional XC racer (speaking about a full-time world class pro) are very similar to our top 24hr racers. Read up on the training routines for Eatough or Cameron Chambers sometime, and you'll discover they're doing a lot of sessions focusing on higher intensity, and not riding 5-6 hours days multiple times per week year round, other than perhaps some early season base building. That's going to look a lot like a standard XC pro, who will be pulling 15-30hr weeks at different times in the year. The top 24hr guys have demonstrated proficiency with some of the other intangibles of mental and emotional qualities also. No doubt some of the standard top XC racers wouldn't make the grade in these areas, but many of them probably would. They're trained to suffer, and they spend long, long hours in the saddle training.

    2) Let's use your example of runners, which is a great comparison to discuss the quality of the field in a 24hr event. If I watch the Olympics, I could pick almost any running discipline from 100m, to 1500m, to marathon, and if an athlete finishes 5th or 10th, then I'd be reasonably confident that's pretty close to their actual place in the entire world's population at that time (including runners from other distances) give or take a few spots.

    In XC racing, a rider who finishes 5th or 10th at the UCI world championships is probably pretty close to being the 5th or 10th best XC rider in the world if we were able to have the entire world's population participate (a silly hypothetical example, of course). However, if we were able to take the entire world's population and put them in a 24hr race, including all the other cyclists from all other discplines, do you think that Chris, or Tinker, or Cameron, etc. would still win? Maybe, or maybe not. They'd certainly be competitive, but they'd have their hands full for sure. After that, do you still think the 10th place finisher from the 24HOA WSC event would still finish anywhere near that placing? They'd be a great rider for sure, but not a chance. I'm quite sure there would be literally hundreds of other riders in the mix.

  22. #122
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    Have you ever raced a solo 24hour race??
    Probably not, otherwise you wouldnt have this view.
    I know plenty of top notch XC pros who wouldn't even think about doing a 24 hour race.
    Why? Because it is more than just riding your bike.
    It takes a whole lot more than going all out for 2 hours or so.
    I just wish you would go try to do a solo 24 hour race and see if you make it longer than a few hours.
    jesus rides a fixed gear.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by twenty4 sports
    Yes it’s been a difficult couple of years... with the complete loss of the company that started 24 Hours of Adrenalin December 3, 2003. Since that time, after Larid Knight's (Granny Gear) lawsuit a staff of 10 lost there jobs and we are currently down to a very small staff. We had to cancel all our development events because we could no longer finance losing efforts. Our level of customer service has dropped because of a reduced staff and we are working hard to ensure fun safe events continue. Jeff you ask why no events other than California or the East Coast... 24 Hours event are popping up all over North America and I for one think this is great for you the riders. I know that we have played a very important roll in developing 24-hour events across North America and the World... I'm proud of what we have been able to accomplish.

    Jeff you have a very active voice in the 24-hour community and you can chose to use it in a positive or negative manor.

    my commitment is too continue running positive events in the communities we are currently hosting events. It is my goal to provide event weekends welcoming all levels of riders and to work in a positive manor to assist in developing the sport as best we can.

    I hope that you would wish us well,

    Stuart

    Hey Stuart. Why do you call Jeff, Jeffy? Was that derogatory (big word Stuey... break out your dictionary)? Why wontcha let Jeff (or is it Jeffy) race? Can't handle a little gentle criticism? Stu ( can I call you Stu?) you are a douchebag. Please ban me from all 24HOA events as well.

    p.s. I try to be nice when I post, but you you brought this on

  24. #124
    No. Just No.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KonaEnduroJC
    Have you ever raced a solo 24hour race??
    Probably not, otherwise you wouldnt have this view.
    Yep. Best not to start a pissing contest of that nature, unless you're sure which side of the contest you're going to come out on.

    Anyhow, this is getting way off topic. My point is not to slag the abilities of top 24hr competitors. They have amazing physical capabilities, and lots of other intangible qualities. My point is that what we currently call a "world solo championship" is not to be taken as seriously as some people are making it out to be. Aside from a small minority of riders, the rest of us are part-timers doing this as a hobby.

    24hr solo racing is my hobby also. I take it very seriously within the context that my life allows. I even have some nice hardware to show for it. However, I take off my rose-colored glasses and don't make the mistake of over-indulging in what this means in terms of my place in the racing world, which is very low in the grand scheme of things. It's called reality.

    Were the "pros" you talked to full-time paid professionals without a regular job who tour the World Cup circuit? There's a huge difference between that and the "Pros" category riders in your local race series.

  25. #125
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    Once interested in 24HOA

    I had been talking about doing 24 HOA for the past year. I thought it was really a good event...then a friend informed me of the posting on this forum. I have never witnessed such an unprofessional promoter as Stuart, based on his comments.

    As far as Laird is concerned, there's NO need for him to reply to this post any further due to the fact you, Stuart, have already ruined your reputation.

    One thing you need to think about Stuart. Mountain bikers are like family. People from all walks of life with different professions such as road workers to doctors. When mountain bikers are brought together there is usually mutual respect through the passion of the sport/ lifestyle. My point, everyone has or will see this forum. Try to show respect for other mountain bikers if you truly do care by not furthering this insanity. Reinstate Jeff.

    About Larid, yes, he does own the rules for his 24 hour series. He wrote them!

    If I may, considering these poor people that are suffering in the South due to Katrina, it is very sad we all (including myself) worry about someone such as Stuart and his 24HOA. Some things are more important than your series Stuart. Frankly, I'm seeing a sad, sad fella only hurt himself.

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by hmosley
    For those of you who would like to believe Stuart when he says that he has never said no about refunds,I would like to bring to light an email which was sent between Stuart and I,

    I have been seeking any type of refund for Worlds this year, due to the fact that I have fell ill with mono. I even suggested to just transfer my registreation to another event once I feel better. This was 2 weeks ago with the initial email.

    Someone brought this forum to my attnetion last night. I did some posting and then emailed Stuart, that I had read that he said that they have never said they will not refund, and I thought that was cool, because he originally told me NO REFUND> so I said I would look forward to hearing from him concerning my refund.

    I then sat down to go to bed and actually started to feel bad for him, I did post some hurtful stuff.

    Then I went to my email to see if he had wrote back..keep in mind, I am a rider, who tarvels all over the country, and pay for everything myself..I do not have health insurance, and now I have big doctors bills.I need every penny I can find.

    So I check my email..and he did write back..his professional response, qoute..

    "Stop bothering me"

    very nice. As a bussiness man, he should remember, this is not a game. His disregard to me as a customer, does not sit well.

    FYI everyone..........hmosley is one respectable & kick ass rider, she has won 3 solo 24's this year! She is very inspirational; and promotes rides, races and riders/racers



    Also, Stuart fired 6 or so of his employees the night before the Dalton,MA 24 HOA race because they didnt go to bed when he told them to.
    This, IMO created a safety issue for the racers. Two racers I know had to stop during their race lap to help fellow riders that fell, for well over an hour each time waiting for help. One had a broken jaw and another had serious head injuries, and before helped arrived briefly stopped breathing multiple times.
    I think it took so long for help to arrive being the help that knew the course was fired, real good job Stuart
    Last edited by douglas; 09-01-2005 at 06:47 AM.

  27. #127
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    Dang, who would have thought I would ever register for the emptybeer forums

    Add 21 riders to the list of people who won't be doing Adrenalin events anymore.

    And I invite Sturat to go ahead and ban me from racing his events...

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    Were the "pros" you talked to full-time paid professionals without a regular job who tour the World Cup circuit? There's a huge difference between that and the "Pros" category riders in your local race series.
    Yes Sir they are. Todd Wells, Jeremiiah Bishop, John Devine, Alan Obye.
    They are all fairly well known and none would want to do a 24 hour solo except maybe Jeremiah.
    jesus rides a fixed gear.

  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by KonaEnduroJC
    Yes Sir they are. Todd Wells, Jeremiiah Bishop, John Devine, Alan Obye.
    They are all fairly well known and none would want to do a 24 hour solo except maybe Jeremiah.
    Great riders. Question well answered - thank you.

    However, don't confuse the concept of "don't want to" with "not able to". A brief history of 24hr solo racing, although you may be well-aware of it already. About a decade ago John Stamstad wanted to race 24 hours solo, and promoters wouldn't let him do it, claiming it was too hard and too dangerous. He got around it by sneaking in a false team entry and riding the whole event himself.

    24 hour solo racing still remained an odd freakshow for a few years, but the since then time has shown that hundreds of normal people with everyday lives are quite capable of riding a decent 24 hour solo race. If we can do it, then it's pure hubris and vanity to think that a highly trained athlete like Wells, Bishop, Obye, Devine, or a hundred others around the globe couldn't ride a kickass solo with about a 1 week warning that would flood the leaderboard at what we call our world solo championships IF THEY WANTED TO.

    You're effectively proven my point which that in general, the best riders in the world don't care about the genre of 24 hour solo racing, or it just doesn't fit in with the programs that their sponsors have for them that call for them to be visible in a much higher number of events across the country week in week out. Therefore, it's arrogance to think of the events we ride as anything close to a valid world championship. The only way in which it's a world championship is because that's the name a promoter decided to give it. There might be about 5 riders max on each of the male/female who would be true elite level competitors. The rest of us are a paying packfill revenue source for the promoter, and wouldn't be allowed anywhere near a real world-calibre event.

    The whole concept of a world 24hr solo championship should simply be dissolved until there is more interest in the genre from a larger pool of elite competitors. Until then we're always going to be subject to the whims of whatever promoter is currently staking claim to holding a world championship.

  30. #130
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    24HOA is run by a bunch of dopes. IMHO, the fees for solo riders are outrageous. Most people eventually realize they get a better experience riding smaller events -plus they are usually 1/3 to 1/10th the price of a 24 hours of Price Gouging event.

    Banning Jeff underlines the unprofessional (and very un-'bike-like') way 24HOA is run.

    I will never attend one of these events and I will do everything I can to disuade my peers from getting suckered.

    I'm sure Stuart would reply to the barrage of messages but I hear he's on his way down to New Orleans to sell bottled water to hurricane victims - $4 a liter. Maybe get a little looting in too.

    Jerk.

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by twenty4 sports
    Riders... ask Larid should anyone own the rules to 24 Hour Racing?
    Are you freaking kidding? Laird developed those rules so they are rightfully his. You don't think it took time, energy and ideas to come up with it? So you think you should just get to piggy-back off of someone else's work? Since you are so keen on volunteers for your races, why don't you spend some time volunteering at a Granny Gear event? As they say, time is money...
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  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Futurepath
    If I may, considering these poor people that are suffering in the South due to Katrina, it is very sad we all (including myself) worry about someone such as Stuart and his 24HOA.

    I couldn't agree more. As a matter of fact, I challenge those on this thread that have stated they will no longer ride 24HOA events, to take $50 that was going to go to Stuey and call 1-800-help-now and donate it to the Red Cross Relief Fund for Katrina Victims (or visit www.redcross.org). I will NEVER ride a 24 hour SOLO event (but will be a member of our local club's "beer per lap" team at 24/9 in 2006 ), but I still called and donated my $50.
    Boogers and Birthdays....the more you have...the harder it is to breath

  33. #133
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    Well, using that logic...

    [QUOTE=Circlip..............

    The whole concept of a world 24hr solo championship should simply be dissolved until there is more interest in the genre from a larger pool of elite competitors. Until then we're always going to be subject to the whims of whatever promoter is currently staking claim to holding a world championship.[/QUOTE]
    ..........we could also eliminate the Pro World Road Championships, and to some degree, the Norba, and UCI mountain bike Championships, since "not all the elite racers" are there. (I personally believe these championships are a "crock" anyway.)

    Example: Is the World mountain bike championships held in 1990 not valid? I could list a host of other examples. Reality: Someone started a "world championship" and, yes, the talent pool probably was a low level, but to wait until you have a number of top, elite level athletes chomping at the bit to do a World Solo 24hr Championships before you actually hold them is not very realistic.

    Perhaps a "respected" ( and I use that term with tongue firmly in cheek) cycling entity will step up and create such an animal. I suspect it'll have alot more to do with money than any one group of "elite" level athletes actually clamoring for such an event. Until then, anybody wanting to set up a series of events, such as Kona's Sleepless in the Saddle series, or a one day event, such as 24hrs. of Moab, could legitimately call that a "World Championship".As long as the peers of that group recognize winners of said event(s) as the world champions, then it is a valid "world championship" in my opinion.
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  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    Great riders. Question well answered - thank you.

    However, don't confuse the concept of "don't want to" with "not able to". A brief history of 24hr solo racing, although you may be well-aware of it already. About a decade ago John Stamstad wanted to race 24 hours solo, and promoters wouldn't let him do it, claiming it was too hard and too dangerous. He got around it by sneaking in a false team entry and riding the whole event himself.

    24 hour solo racing still remained an odd freakshow for a few years, but the since then time has shown that hundreds of normal people with everyday lives are quite capable of riding a decent 24 hour solo race. If we can do it, then it's pure hubris and vanity to think that a highly trained athlete like Wells, Bishop, Obye, Devine, or a hundred others around the globe couldn't ride a kickass solo with about a 1 week warning that would flood the leaderboard at what we call our world solo championships IF THEY WANTED TO.

    You're effectively proven my point which that in general, the best riders in the world don't care about the genre of 24 hour solo racing, or it just doesn't fit in with the programs that their sponsors have for them that call for them to be visible in a much higher number of events across the country week in week out. Therefore, it's arrogance to think of the events we ride as anything close to a valid world championship. The only way in which it's a world championship is because that's the name a promoter decided to give it. There might be about 5 riders max on each of the male/female who would be true elite level competitors. The rest of us are a paying packfill revenue source for the promoter, and wouldn't be allowed anywhere near a real world-calibre event.

    The whole concept of a world 24hr solo championship should simply be dissolved until there is more interest in the genre from a larger pool of elite competitors. Until then we're always going to be subject to the whims of whatever promoter is currently staking claim to holding a world championship.
    We gotta start somewhere, no? I think you are off the mark in two respects.

    First of all, the highest level euros could probably kick butt in a 24, but it wouldn't happen with 7 days notice. Did you notice what happened at 24 natz this year? Chambers, a decent semi-pro XC rider, won against a very strong field, including one notable olympian, prev and current nat and world champs (sorry if that's circular, but you get the point). A large part of what makes a good 24 hour racer is experience. Some riders have more intrinsic ability in this area than others...but all gain from experience. Wasn't it Hestler who crushed it from the gun at worlds a couple years back only to drop after 6 hours or so? Experience.

    2nd - we have to start somewhere.

    I vote for Moab.

  35. #135
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    All good counterpoints!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    but to wait until you have a number of top, elite level athletes chomping at the bit to do a World Solo 24hr Championships before you actually hold them is not very realistic...I suspect it'll have alot more to do with money than any one group of "elite" level athletes actually clamoring for such an event.
    Excellent points. Will someone step up to the plate on a speculative basis and start to build a high dollar event that will attract larger sponsors and more elite level riders? Sort of "Build it and they will come"? Or will more interest need to be seen from larger numbers of the better riders before sponsors take this plunge? Do we as a community even want sponsors to make this leap, or do we want to keep 24hr racing as a grassroots event?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Until then, anybody wanting to set up a series of events, such as Kona's Sleepless in the Saddle series, or a one day event, such as 24hrs. of Moab, could legitimately call that a "World Championship".As long as the peers of that group recognize winners of said event(s) as the world champions, then it is a valid "world championship" in my opinion.
    Agreed. My counterpoint is, if an event is generally known and recognized to be the most competitive of its type, then why do we need to try to tag it with monikers like "world championship" or "global championship", which are just futile examples of organizers playing one-upmanship games? The current climate of 24hr racing seems to be quite handcuffed by this issue and we would probably all be better served by sweeping it all away.

    There are many sports and specialty disciplines within sports which have a recognized premier event without the posturing of calling it a world championship.

  36. #136
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    Well, You asked!

    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    .............
    Agreed. My counterpoint is, if an event is generally known and recognized to be the most competitive of its type, then why do we need to try to tag it with monikers like "world championship" or "global championship", which are just futile examples of organizers playing one-upmanship games? The current climate of 24hr racing seems to be quite handcuffed by this issue and we would probably all be better served by sweeping it all away.

    There are many sports and specialty disciplines within sports which have a recognized premier event without the posturing of calling it a world championship.
    I think this phenomenon is due to the reasons you give with the additions that, as a society, we cock an ear whenever "World Champion........" is mentioned. People take notice, so sponsors like to attach themselves to such things. The prestige that the title brings is almost more important than the activity/ skill/ talent that brought about the title in the first place!

    I agree that it is a problematic way to give pre-eminence to the best of our sport. I would think that, in the long run, a title like "Daytona 500 Winner", or "Indianapolis 500 Winner" would foster alot more heritage and pride than the much overused, and tired cliche' of "World Champion". However; that would require that a certain event become the "jewel" of 24hr racing. It's not likely that anyone will be able to decide that question anytime soon!

    For the present time, I think it's best that things stay at a grassroots, all-inclusive level. I think part of the fun for many is being able just to enjoy riding their bicycle along with folks the likes of Tinker Juarez, Keith Bontrager, or their next door neighbor. A move to a more prestigious, exclusive, and higher level will alienate many in the "movement" as it stands right now. Hmm.......kinda reminds me of what happened to XC racing!
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  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by hairball_dh
    I think you are off the mark in two respects.
    Could well be, after all this is all just silly internet speculation from all parties concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by hairball_dh
    First of all, the highest level euros could probably kick butt in a 24, but it wouldn't happen with 7 days notice.
    We'll have to agree to disagree (as pointed out above, this is all wild speculation anyhow) since I think you'd find that the training of a top 50 World Cup pro is already remarkably similar to any of the top few 24hr solo racers. How they apply it in a race is what's different. No, I can't prove a bit of this though, as I admittedly do not have Chris' or Tinker's or Julien Absalon's or Christophe Sauser's training schedules in front of me at this moment. Must have left them in my other jacket.

    Also, I do wish to point out that I never said in any of my posts above that our current crop of top half dozen 24hr racers would get wiped out. I have implied, and will maintain that it would be a very tough competition all around.

    Quote Originally Posted by hairball_dh
    Did you notice what happened at 24 natz this year? Chambers, a decent semi-pro XC rider, won against a very strong field, including one notable olympian, prev and current nat and world champs (sorry if that's circular, but you get the point).
    No I don't find that unreasonably circular.

    Quote Originally Posted by hairball_dh
    A large part of what makes a good 24 hour racer is experience.
    However, this I do find circular since the racers Cameron beat all have much more experience than him, 24hr solos and otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by hairball_dh
    Some riders have more intrinsic ability in this area than others...but all gain from experience.
    I will venture that not all, but most top World Cup XC racers would probably have healthy doses of the intrinsic abilities you are referring to.

    Quote Originally Posted by hairball_dh
    Wasn't it Hestler who crushed it from the gun at worlds a couple years back only to drop after 6 hours or so? Experience.
    It was last year. Hestler, while also an excellent racer, does not currently rate as a top 50 XC World Cup pro.

    Quote Originally Posted by hairball_dh
    2nd - we have to start somewhere.
    Start what? I'm actually more interested in your opinion on this matter than any of the junk above written from both of us.

  38. #138
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    nah nah nah nahhhhhhhhhh

    don't funk with Kerkove's heaaaarrrrrrrrrrt!

  39. #139
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    Hey Circlip

    I get your point. I went to the "worlds" back in 2000 and came home with a different POV than I had from reading articles about the event in magazines in 1999. I know that when I show up to a 24 hour event an expert class "virgin" can show up and blow everybody out of the water, or he could overestimate his abilities and be packing his stuff up before midnight.
    I look at the "worlds" now the same way I see the SSWC. It is the Worlds because somebody says so, and for no other reason.
    I do think a lot of pros could cross over and stomp, but for them there has to be motivation (money). Why screw themselves up for a couple weeks trying to recover from a 24 hour event if their sponsors are paying them to perform in a NORBA or UCI race. I am not saying that the people racing at the top of bunch are not deserving. They have chose a path to success that is currently working for them. They work hard and are worthy of all the accolades bestowed upon them.
    24 hour racing is what it is, for now. Mostly a bunch of people just trying to see what they can do with the bodies before they die. Throw in a few people who figured out a way to make a career out of it, and that is our current lot.
    Promoters; to those that promote from a love of cycling, thank you. For those that want to provide a good time and make some money at it, thanks. To the ones who are trying to squeeze riders for a maximum profit, good luck. We have more options than we did five years ago.
    Last edited by teamdicky; 09-02-2005 at 07:11 AM.
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  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by teamdicky
    I get your point...

    ...24 hour racing is what it is, for now.
    Wow, nicely said on all counts.

    BTW, congrats on your SS/rigid Trans Rockies. Amazing accomplishment. It must be cool to be on some imaginary list of mountain biking "firsts", along with the aforementioned John Stamstad and others. Being first to do something kind of writes it in stone!

  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    I agree that it is a problematic way to give pre-eminence to the best of our sport. I would think that, in the long run, a title like "Daytona 500 Winner", or "Indianapolis 500 Winner" would foster alot more heritage and pride than the much overused, and tired cliche' of "World Champion".
    Or the Grand Slam events in golf and tennis, or cycling's TdF and Paris-Roubaix, etc. Many examples abound of marquis events that are easily recognized as being the most important in their sport, all without needing to attach a title to the victor other than simply the winner of that event.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    However; that would require that a certain event become the "jewel" of 24hr racing. It's not likely that anyone will be able to decide that question anytime soon!
    I'm partially in agreement. The difference of opinion I probably have is that the events which we will define as the "jewels" of 24hr racing shouldn't be given that accolade because of the quaility of the solo field or cash/product prizes given to solo podium finishers. We don't need a national series, for rankings or otherwise. We don't need an official world championship. As a solo train hard, compete hard against whoever shows up at the races you choose to do, and the cream of the crop will gravitate toward certain events in time. The

    24hr racing is about a thousand riders (or more) of all types going out and having an amazing riding and social experience. When I hear everyone at an event talking about how great it was while packing up, then I know it was a jewel event indeed. 24hr racing is an awesome creation. Why would we want to risk screwing around with this by adding additional competitive frameworks?

    Whether someone threw some prizes at me doesn't even count into my thinking about whether or not it was a good event. My reward comes from getting to test myself and spend a whole day on the course with my fellow riders. I'd rather see the promoters divert any prize money back into lowering entry fees instead, which would make it all more inclusive for participation.

    Amateur riders should be taking a cue from the full-time pros, most of whom must seriously love what they're doing because 99% of them are making large financial sacrifices. When the pros are doing it purely for passion and little to no long-term financial reward, it makes amateurs who are clamouring for prizes seem twisted and greedy by comparison. That passion is well stated in your comments below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    For the present time, I think it's best that things stay at a grassroots, all-inclusive level. I think part of the fun for many is being able just to enjoy riding their bicycle along with folks the likes of Tinker Juarez, Keith Bontrager, or their next door neighbor. A move to a more prestigious, exclusive, and higher level will alienate many in the "movement" as it stands right now. Hmm.......kinda reminds me of what happened to XC racing!

  42. #142
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    well anyways,.....

    can we go back to bustin' sturat's chops?

    just kidding....

  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted


    For the present time, I think it's best that things stay at a grassroots, all-inclusive level. I think part of the fun for many is being able just to enjoy riding their bicycle along with folks the likes of Tinker Juarez, Keith Bontrager, or their next door neighbor. A move to a more prestigious, exclusive, and higher level will alienate many in the "movement" as it stands right now. Hmm.......kinda reminds me of what happened to XC racing!
    yes, that is a cool aspect as it stands now. at 12 hours of razorback last year i blew by both Tinker and Etough!

    Amd then the race started.......

  44. #144
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    Hey Jeff--welcome to the Banned Wagon...

    I raced Stu's inaugural 24 hour 'worlds' in '99. After the event I personally thanked Stu, Steve, and Mark for the well-organized and smoothly-executed race, then went on to write articles for several magazines (Bike, Mountain Bike, Dirt Rag, Silent Sports, Rocky Mountain Sports, etc...) giving nothing but glowing reviews to the 24HOA organization.

    The next year, despite the fact that solo racing was taking off and the numbers were way up (I think this was the first year that caps were put in to limit the size of solo fields), Stu announced that he was cutting the solo purse out entirely because the solo category was losing money. Huh? No amount of question/answer with Stu ever satisfied any of us--he did it and that was that. All of the 'pro' racers had already planned their seasons out, bought plane tickets and/or booked rooms in advance, and there was no way that we could change plans at that point, so we grudgingly raced anyway. Few of us were happy, and most of us voiced our concerns about it. Nothing changed.

    Then at the end of '00 Stu got all the regulars together for a pow-wow before the 'worlds' race and asked us what we wanted to change, and what we wanted to stay the same. All of us, men, women, young, old(ish), gearheads and singlespeeders alike voiced the same concern: rising costs with no payback. We asked nicely, then pleaded, then demanded that our voices be heard. Stu's response was (to paraphrase), "Uh, sorry, not happening. Next question...".

    The result was that at the end of the 2000 race season there was a mass exodus from 24HOA events. All the guys/gals that had been racing and winning for years just got fed up with burning money on the wind. John Stamstad, Pat Norwil, Chris Scott, Greg Blackwell, Jon Kirschke, Chloe Lanthier, Pat Irwin, Brett Wolfe, myself, and many others that collectively formed the founding group of 24 hour solo racers, all of us simply had had enough and moved on to other events. Go look back at the results from pre-2000 and post-2000 to verify this.

    In 2001 I skipped 'worlds' entirely. Hallelujah.

    In '02 and '03 due to sponsorship obligations I grudgingly found myself back at 'worlds'. There were very few familiar faces, and most of them seemed downright tickled at the opportunity to pay a boatload of cash to ride around in dusty circles chasing Chris and Tinker. In '02 I kept quiet, raced my bike, accepted my Hydrapak for finishing on the podium, then left as quickly as possible afterwards.

    In '03 it was the same story, but on top of all the other fees (parking, camping, booth rental, etc...) there was a charge to attend the awards banquet! We'd have to pay to stand on the podium! When (pre-race) I voiced my concern about that (in a civil email to one of Stu's vice-underlings), I was instantly a persona non grata.

    When I showed up to race I sought out Stuart and asked him if we could have a conversation about the fees after the race was over. He refused to make eye-contact with me, refused to answer the question, and eventually just walked away without answering at all.

    So I raced, finished on the podium, then boycotted the awards ceremony. I recall that I and a few friends went and spent less on sushi than it would have cost us to attend the banquet. As I drove back from BC to Colorado I calculated that the trip had cost me a hair over $2000 all told. I had driven to the event AND raced crewless to save money! Shortly after totaling up the costs I vowed never, ever to race one of his events again.

    A few months later I heard, thirdhand, that I had been banned forever from competing in any 24HOA events. To this day I've never heard this from Stu himself, nor have I been given any explanation as to why. But it really doesn't matter. Wild horses couldn't drag me to another one of his races. After reading through all of the similar anecdotes on this thread it seems that finally the general racing public is seeing Stu for who he really is. I'm surprised that it took as long as it did.

    Jeff, if I were you I'd look at this as a blessing. You have dozens of races to choose from and few of them will cost you as much $$$ as the 24HOA events did. Your career is young, your ability is impressive, and the future is wide open. Take advantage of the opportunity.

    Cheers,

    Mike Curiak

  45. #145
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    ahhh, remember when

    ************************************************** **************************************************

    I'm partially in agreement. The difference of opinion I probably have is that the events which we will define as the "jewels" of 24hr racing shouldn't be given that accolade because of the quaility of the solo field or cash/product prizes given to solo podium finishers. We don't need a national series, for rankings or otherwise. We don't need an official world championship. As a solo train hard, compete hard against whoever shows up at the races you choose to do, and the cream of the crop will gravitate toward certain events in time. The

    24hr racing is about a thousand riders (or more) of all types going out and having an amazing riding and social experience. When I hear everyone at an event talking about how great it was while packing up, then I know it was a jewel event indeed. 24hr racing is an awesome creation. Why would we want to risk screwing around with this by adding additional competitive frameworks?

    Whether someone threw some prizes at me doesn't even count into my thinking about whether or not it was a good event.

    *******That is fine for the really competitve people, but you're forgetting about the majority of racers who are not there to win. Just as this is a grass roots type event, most are grass roots riders, and taking something home ( because thery're not likely to take home a trophy or glory ) does mean something to them. Their reward may be that they simply did it, and maybe they finished. But something to remember it by other than a number plate stuck on the wall in the garage, something that they may use for the next ride like fresh tires or glasses or a new hydration pack that they weren't going to spend money on does have lasting value. Think back to your first crappy mountain bike and how cool any new widget was, and how enthusiastic you got about new grips, 'cause you actually wore something out. People cross country race to prove themselves, but the minority go to 24 hour events to do so.**********

    My reward comes from getting to test myself and spend a whole day on the course with my fellow riders. I'd rather see the promoters divert any prize money back into lowering entry fees instead, which would make it all more inclusive for participation.

    Amateur riders should be taking a cue from the full-time pros, most of whom must seriously love what they're doing because 99% of them are making large financial sacrifices. When the pros are doing it purely for passion and little to no long-term financial reward, it makes amateurs who are clamouring for prizes seem twisted and greedy by comparison. That passion is well stated in your comments below.[/QUOTE]

  46. #146
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    I had been very close to entering the Conyers, Ga event, but based on what I've read here it sounds like I dodged a bullet on that one.
    That which does not kill me, postpones the inevitable.

  47. #147
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    Wow- Stu must really be a man of his principals. Not that I agree with his principals, but he must feel strongly about them seeing as his standing up for them will probably cost him hundreds of thousands of dollars over the next several years. Think about all of the people commenting here, and all the teams they put together, and their friends, and the mtbr guests, and the many races per year, for years on end. It wouldn't take long to get into the hundreds of thousands of dollars range.

    Where is Stuey anyway? We haven't heard from you since his 'I'll tell ya' post three days ago. I'm curious to hear what he is going to say.

  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by @dam
    Where is Stuey anyway? We haven't heard from you since his 'I'll tell ya' post three days ago. I'm curious to hear what he is going to say.
    Considering the turn of events here, I'd really be surprised if he responded anymore.
    That which does not kill me, postpones the inevitable.

  49. #149
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    Not looking to defend hiim

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanL
    Considering the turn of events here, I'd really be surprised if he responded anymore.
    He probably can't respond as he is busy at the Worlds this weekend. He has probably been working it most of the week.
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  50. #150
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    Hey teamdicky,
    I'm still awaiting Stueys response to my offer to help him with setup et al at Conyers. I sent that email over three weeks ago. He was at Whistler "getting ready for World's" then.

    And we all wonder why 24HOA events cost so much.... we fund his little vacations when we pay his fees. Does it REALLY take an organized person a month to set up for that race? Probably not. How much would one's expenses be for a month at Whistler?
    Charles Myrick
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