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  1. #51
    mp3
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    Might as well ask here...

    Stuart

    Seeing as you keep tabs on the endurance racing forum and this thread, how about it?
    What do you say to transferring my WSC solo entry fee to Namrita? It's fine with me and I don't think she has a problem with it.

    Mario

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by mp3
    I don't have not problem with the refund thing. That's standard with most races I've done.
    What I thought was silly and bothered me the most was not being able to transfer my entry fee to another Adrenalin event. I don't see what the problem is with that. Enlighten me. I could have raced Hurkey or Fountain hills solo but since I won't know till November I've already changed my race schedule. I don't ever plan on shutting up but I'll still race.

    As far as donating or transferring my fee to another racer perhaps you didn't read my previous post. Didn't sound like that was an option. BUT... If namrita shoots off an email to Stuart about transferring my solo entry fee to her and he say's yes them I'm game with that. Someone might as well get some fun out of it. Disputing the charges through the credit card company is not an option for me because I paid back in April...more then 60 days have passed.
    Hey Mario. I sent you an email. Let me know if you don't get it.

  3. #53
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    Jeff Kerkove banned for comments!!!

    Hey, thought you all would like to know that Stuart Dorland has "suspended" Jeff Kerkove from any 24hrs of Adrenaline events for a year based on the comments he made in this thread! This means he cannot race at Worlds, an event he has been preparing for all year. I know Jeff will not respond to this action here, so I am taking the initiative to let you guys in on this preposterous action.

    An action based on someone voicing their opinion is one thing, but when the "retailer" ( in this case, 24hrs. of Adrenaline) refuses services, based on said opinions being expressed, to the customer, ( in this case, Mr. Kerkove) you have a very flawed business model. That is going to cause repurcussions of a most negative type for 24hrs. of Adrenaline, I'm afraid. I am not an endurance racer, but I work in retail, and I understand that this is a really bad thing to have happen.

    I know the details of this sad action, as I have read the e-mail that Jeff recieved today. I also am a co-worker of his, so this has all come to me first hand. This shall not go unnoticed!
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  4. #54
    Grizzly
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    Jeff posted some details at his blog. http://jeffkerkove.blogspot.com
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  5. #55
    No. Just No.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Hey, thought you all would like to know that Stuart Dorland has "suspended" Jeff Kerkove from any 24hrs of Adrenaline events for a year based on the comments he made in this thread! This means he cannot race at Worlds, an event he has been preparing for all year.
    WIthout commenting on the merits of the situation, that is extremely disappointing. I'm sorry for you Jeff in the sense of it having been something you had worked and planned toward. Hopefully the resulting financial damages are minimal in terms of travel arrangements already booked, etc.

    While I can certainly appreciate the concept of a business owner having the right to refuse to engage in transactions with parties if they choose, I try not to think of mountain biking and 24hr events as a business. Instead I consider it just another flavour of mountain biking fun that just happens to have a business framework surrounding it. In reality I guess that's an idealized concept that doesn't really exist. Sad situation for everyone involved.

  6. #56
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    Did I do the right thing?

    Last year was the first 24 Hours of Pisgah, and here is what happened. On Thursday night/Friday morning before the race Hurricane Ivan came thru and devestated Western North Carolina (we were not alone by any means) 3 cabins at the venue were flattened and if anyone had been in them they would be dead. There was no power and no water, due to the emergency one could not rent a generator. One of the main roads (a 4 lane) to the venue was blocked by several mud slides. Places that had never been flooded in recorded history was under 5-6 feet of water. Several of us got on our cell phones (thank god they still worked) and called everyone who was traveling to the race to stop them. We actually reached all but one who then got on our forum and blasted me with every thing he had. Well I reschedualed for 2 weeks later. About a third of the teams could not make the new date. Some of those asked for refunds even though in big writing on the instruction page of the registration forms was NO REFUNDS. Well here is how I felt. I would be bankrupt if I refunded everyone, I wasn't comfortable taking peoples money with out giving them something in return, I had offerd an alternative date. What would you do? I said no refunds, but you can race next year on last years entry. Thanks to the folks who didn't ask for a refund

  7. #57
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    No good This all sucks!

    I have been reading these various posts and wonder to myself what the H--L is this Stuart guy thinking. How can you ban one of the better endurance racers form entering one of your events. Jeff Kerkove has an active voice ( as we have seen it made an example of) in the 24 hour cycling community. He takes time to post meaningful blogs for his fans and foes alike. They are all able to read what his life as an endurance athlete is all about. Has anything happened to anyone else on that list? Jeff has obviously been targeted because he has such an influential voice in the 24 hour community. If there had been an "across the board" ban for all racers posting on this blog, I might say ok, but to target one person is ludicrous. The local events will continue to flourish with a-holes like this running events. Mr. Stuart, approx how much do you stand to make from this event. It would appear from an outsiders view that you are trying to get rich off the series and not just make a little profit to make the event better the following year. Good luck with your series Stuart, after this little fiasco, things may start going downhill faster for you.

  8. #58
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    Did I do the right thing?

    Last year was the first 24 Hours of Pisgah, and here is what happened. On Thursday night/Friday morning before the race Hurricane Ivan came thru and devestated Western North Carolina (we were not alone by any means) 3 cabins at the venue were flattened and if anyone had been in them they would be dead. There was no power and no water, due to the emergency one could not rent a generator. One of the main roads (a 4 lane) to the venue was blocked by several mud slides. Places that had never been flooded in recorded history was under 5-6 feet of water. Several of us got on our cell phones (thank god they still worked) and called everyone who was traveling to the race to stop them. We actually reached all but one who then got on our forum and blasted me with every thing he had. Well I reschedualed for 2 weeks later. About a third of the teams could not make the new date. Some of those asked for refunds even though in big writing on the instruction page of the registration forms was NO REFUNDS. Well here is how I felt. I would be bankrupt if I refunded everyone, I wasn't comfortable taking peoples money with out giving them something in return, I had offerd an alternative date. What would you do? I said no refunds, but you can race next year on last years entry. Thanks to the folks who didn't ask for a refund

  9. #59
    your ankles are fat
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    a drop in participation at adrenalin races will follow this for sure

    After reading these posts, I for one will no longer be participating in 24hrs of Adr. races. All hail the little guy who puts 24hr races on for the love of the sport. I would presume Trans Iowa 2006 won't be a "World Solo Qualifier." Sorry Jeff and those banned or not refunded their entries due to health/cancellation circumstances, I know how much these races mean to us all.
    Last edited by PaddyH; 08-26-2005 at 10:17 PM.

  10. #60
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    Yeah I gotta say this is really bogus. I would have gone to worlds too but could not afford it.
    But now with the way Stuart is acting I WILL NEVER be supporting his events. But if you already are paying him let me know and I will take your spot.
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  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduro Adventures
    Last year was the first 24 Hours of Pisgah, and here is what happened. On Thursday night/Friday morning before the race Hurricane Ivan came thru and devestated Western North Carolina (we were not alone by any means) 3 cabins at the venue were flattened and if anyone had been in them they would be dead. There was no power and no water, due to the emergency one could not rent a generator. One of the main roads (a 4 lane) to the venue was blocked by several mud slides. Places that had never been flooded in recorded history was under 5-6 feet of water. Several of us got on our cell phones (thank god they still worked) and called everyone who was traveling to the race to stop them. We actually reached all but one who then got on our forum and blasted me with every thing he had. Well I reschedualed for 2 weeks later. About a third of the teams could not make the new date. Some of those asked for refunds even though in big writing on the instruction page of the registration forms was NO REFUNDS. Well here is how I felt. I would be bankrupt if I refunded everyone, I wasn't comfortable taking peoples money with out giving them something in return, I had offerd an alternative date. What would you do? I said no refunds, but you can race next year on last years entry. Thanks to the folks who didn't ask for a refund

    You clearly did the right thing, based on the circumstances. There isn't a whole lot more that you could do. A hurricane cannot be helped, and you are doing what you can. Sounds like the right thing to me.
    If you want to play with electricity, more power to ya......

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Hey, thought you all would like to know that Stuart Dorland has "suspended" Jeff Kerkove from any 24hrs of Adrenaline events for a year based on the comments he made in this thread! T
    Amazing. I guess Stuart somehow does not think that he is "hurting the sport" by doing this, but he could not be more wrong. Fortunately, the sport is bigger than him. My guess is that this is going to reverberate through the 24 hr race community, and Stuart is going to find himself regretting this foolish action.
    If you want to play with electricity, more power to ya......

  13. #63
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    Does anyone else find it odd...

    ...that with every reference to Laird, he spells it "larid"?

    Weird, imo.

    fp

  14. #64
    mp3
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    The racers make the race

    24 Hours of Adrenalin has made a mistake by barring Jeff from participating in their events for one year. 24 hour racing is no longer the nascent community it once was. 24 Hours of Adrenalin is not “THE” community any longer. There are numerous other 24-hour venues across the country that provide outlets to have fun and compete at a reasonable cost. And I’m sure that a good number of event promoters are in it because of passion and not primarily for profit like Adrenalin. Perhaps 24 HOA has forgotten that it exists only because of the racers. The weekend warriors, like myself, make up the bulk of Adrenalin’s profit and the elite racers make the Whistler event the “world” championship. Take away the elite racers and there is no championship. Take away the profit base by continuing to charge high prices and providing poor services then you have no more mediocre events. Perhaps it’s time for the 24-hour community to throw their weight behind regional events and alternative championship events/series. Perhaps a boycott of 24HOA events will drive the point home…it’s the racers who say (with their entry fees) what is and what is not.

  15. #65
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    Wow. Could Stuart have *gasp* hurt the sport!? I think maybe he did.

    Also, to Enduro Adventures- I don't think people were concerned that he doesn't offer a refund, but that
    1) he doesn't spell out his refund policy in advance, and
    2) said, on page one of this thread "I never said no refunds". WTF?

    I think people would've been fine with a transfer to another rider or a postponment to another race.

    Yup...hurting the sport.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduro Adventures
    Last year was the first 24 Hours of Pisgah, and here is what happened. On Thursday night/Friday morning before the race Hurricane Ivan came thru and devestated Western North Carolina (we were not alone by any means) 3 cabins at the venue were flattened and if anyone had been in them they would be dead. There was no power and no water, due to the emergency one could not rent a generator. One of the main roads (a 4 lane) to the venue was blocked by several mud slides. Places that had never been flooded in recorded history was under 5-6 feet of water. Several of us got on our cell phones (thank god they still worked) and called everyone who was traveling to the race to stop them. We actually reached all but one who then got on our forum and blasted me with every thing he had. Well I reschedualed for 2 weeks later. About a third of the teams could not make the new date. Some of those asked for refunds even though in big writing on the instruction page of the registration forms was NO REFUNDS. Well here is how I felt. I would be bankrupt if I refunded everyone, I wasn't comfortable taking peoples money with out giving them something in return, I had offerd an alternative date. What would you do? I said no refunds, but you can race next year on last years entry. Thanks to the folks who didn't ask for a refund

    YES! You did the right thing!
    Ken,
    The circumstances that led to you needing to rescedule the race can only be described as 'an act of god'. Maybe I missed it but has Stuart ever come out and said exactly why he moved the date of conyers? Is he forcasting a hurricane? It's unfortunate that you weren't able to get ahold of that one team to tell them the race date was moved but, I don't know, if I showed up that weekend, it would have been immediately clear that to try to race was not a good idea. Death! Distruction! Chaos! No Water! No Power! Landslides! Landslides! Landslides! A year later they are still repairing landslides.
    Eric

    p.s. I don't have your snailmail address, I dropped a few Double Dare entry forms off with Vicky. Hope to see you and JT there!
    You can please some people sometimes but you can't please all the people all the time.
    ERIC'S RIDE LOG

  17. #67
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    Racers need to take action

    I am the girl with Mono. I think I really started this whole thing with Stuart. My beef originally, was that his refund policy, clearly states that if a solo racer notifies him 30 days prior to the race that you would be refunded 1/2 of your entry. I was told no refunds.

    Due to the circumstances that have taken place since, I have dediced that the community of racers should be able to do something. There are many of you out their, that will not see refunds, due to date changes, illness, or because Stuart has decided to ban you from his races.

    I originally requested a transfer into another event, or to another person and was told no as well.

    This past Friday, I made a trip over to my Lawyer. My husband and I took all the emails we had revieved from Stuart, a copy of his refund policy, and related expenses material.
    Our Lawyer, advised us that we do have a valid case, since his refund policy is so clearly stated, and since he is operating under a business, he is responsible to uphold certain regulations.

    Our lawyer also advised us, that our case would be even more substantial, and devestating to him if we had other racers involved with similair circumstances. If you would like more information please contact me.

    I will hope to see that we all follow through with are gut feelings on this issue, and do not let things just go. Someone needs to be held responsible.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduro Adventures
    Some of those asked for refunds even though in big writing on the instruction page of the registration forms was NO REFUNDS. Well here is how I felt. I would be bankrupt if I refunded everyone
    Google for "risk management." You take out event insurance for this kind of thing, you don't go bankrupt, and your participants go away happy.

    RFM

  19. #69
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    I used to do 24 HOA races...in fact I've probably done more than 10 of their races (including the World Solo Championships) and I find this so disappointing. I don't race 24 HOA races any more because they don't do any in Ontario...which is where they started the whole thing! Each year they lose their best venues (this year it was Canmore which used to be their only sellout, year before was Hardwood Hills) and it seems this trend will continue. In fact I just recently rec'd an email asking if I wanted to do the race (via Grandfather clause) in Whistler which indicates, in my opinion, their numbers are down and they are getting desperate. I always enjoyed their races and it was my perogative to pay the entry so why people complain about the fee is ridiculous....there are so many other races to do for so much less....just hit up one of those instead. The problem with 24 HOA is the attitude given on these forums....they are rude, inconsistent and a complete turnoff. To title the response to Jeff Kerkove as "Dear Jeffy" just reminds me of kids calling each other names in elementary school. Kudos to Jeff for trying to clarify his point in a response instead of being upset about the rudeness of Stuart.

    Now the next question is how Stuart will handle Jeff's refund, particular since that is what started this whole thread in the first place.

  20. #70
    Complete Bastard
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    Quote Originally Posted by twenty4 sports
    As for the post regarding fees etc; I appreciate each individuals right to speak your mind.

    Hahahha NOT!

    24HOA sucks, I'm letting every mtber I know, especially endurance racers, know about this. Don't support these *******s.

  21. #71
    "Ride Lots" - Eddie Mercx
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    a few additional comments and observations

    I've raced 7 24HOA events, one Granny Gear, and one Epic Rides event in the Southern CA and southwest area.

    having competed in 24 hour events from three different promoter at least gave me some perspective.

    all three put on a great event. But..........only 24HOA REQUIRES a volunteer. not only do you get the pleasure of forking out a lot of money in addition to whatever additional fees the venue requires you to pay, but you have to have somebody to provide FREE labor to the company profiting from the event!

    the problem with this is that when you travel to participate in an event, sometimes for a great distance, you can't always bring a wife/husband/boyfriend/girlfriend/life partner/significant other/ect. to act as this free labor. Even if you are able to bring your family, if you have kids preventing that person from leaving camp then you're still screwed. it's hard enough to get 3 or 4 friends to travel adn commit to participating in a race but to then have to find a person who's only purpose is to provide labor or face a DQ then that's just wrong. if teams paid more by not providing a volunteer then that's great but if I can't bring a volunteer and I can't get a refund but I'll get a DQ without a volunteer WTF am I supposed to do? Just not register and compete at an event that won't DQ my team!

    GG does not require a volunteer. Epic Rides does not require a volunteer. both put on events close to my home. if I only pick one event to participate in, which one may it be?

    Secondly, 24HOA timing and scorekeeping sucks! GG had RFID cards several years ago. Epic used computers to update lap times instantly. 24HOA, for all the expense that the racers paid, had scorekeeping that was usually 3 or 4 laps behind the current state of events!

    Finally, since it's all really about the T-shirt anyway, GG provides a T-shirt custom to the venue so if you do two GG events, you get two different T-shirts. 24HOA uses the same T-shirt for the entire season so if you do two events, you get two identical T-shirts (if you didn't get DQ'd for not bringing a volunteer along in the first place!).

    The fall Hurkey Creek 24HOA event is always good and on a good course. the spring event has coincided with the GG event (hmmmm, wonder why?). yet the spring HC event always lacks riders. could it be because we don't feel the need to pay to ride the same course twice in one year when there's another event just down the street.

    I know that promoting races is a business and they need to make money. But, one can't ignore the customer when there are other options available. and who focking cars if Laird was trying to patent or copyright or whatever 24 hours of anything? it doesn't take a marketing genius to then just come up wtih the 23 hours and 59 minutes of adrenaline to get arouond the issue anyway!@#$@#!!

    I'll continue to pick and choose which events I choose to enter but it's comforting to know that there are choices I can make. I can base my decision on several factors and I'm not stuck to any one promotor or event.

    YR

    How do others feel?[/QUOTE]

  22. #72
    giddy up!
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    Sturat-

    Might as well throw me on your banned list as well. After 4 or 5 Idyllwild events I'll not be back. The course is great but I can't see why I should support 24HOA when you've exhibited to the endurance community that you won't support us.

    Let's not be hypocrites folks....support the local promoter that actually cares about the community and will still be around after the circus leaves town.

    I never saw the point of a midnight corn roast anyway.

    B
    Last edited by donkey; 08-28-2005 at 07:19 PM.
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  23. #73
    Jed Peters
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    What is it about bike racers that cannot spell?

    Jeez!

  24. #74
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    I did the 24HOA Worlds in Whistler and didn't plan on returning due to the high cost. Being charged for a crummy web site was a total slap in the face. Banning Jeff is the nail in the coffin.

    Please add me to the banned-for-life list.

    I've got plenty to do with Trans-Iowa, Leadville, Lumberjack, and Boyne.

  25. #75
    Its only 1" on the map!
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    A one year sounds fine to me

    I pledge to not to do a 24HOA event for at least one year.

    Epic Rides - I'll see you in Tucson
    Granny Gear - I'll see you in Temecula

    Both of these folks put on great events, they are cheaper, and they do not require volunteers.

  26. #76
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    Just another expense, to pay the Insurance companies and lawyers

    Here in WNC we ride, rain, or shine, mud or dust. The other policy I stated was the event would run rain or shine. You know we don't exactly live where hurricanes have ever devestated before, it is also not tornado alley. It already costs way more to put on an event like this than most people could imagine, and folks balk at tha price as it is. Do you know how many teams it takes just to pay the minimum price for liability, and suplimental coverage for the racers? Would it be like a web usage fee? Pass it on to the racers? No I am sorry. The odds are the race goes on with out a hitch, I will offer an alternate date, or a free entry next year rather than line the pockets of insurance companies. Does the insurance cover someone dropping out because all of a sudden their nephew is getting married or because their dog got hit by a car, (why wasn't he on a leash?) We all take chances, calculated risks. I just will not take someones money with out giving them a choice of an alternate date, or an entry into next years race. If I refund one person, then why should I not refund everyone?

  27. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Hey, thought you all would like to know that Stuart Dorland has "suspended" Jeff Kerkove from any 24hrs of Adrenaline events for a year based on the comments he made in this thread! This means he cannot race at Worlds, an event he has been preparing for all year. I know Jeff will not respond to this action here, so I am taking the initiative to let you guys in on this preposterous action.
    Looks like 24sports has adopted the "NO SOUP FOR YOU!!!" business model. an interesting gambit.............hrmmmm

  28. #78
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    Good job! 24 hours Moab..a new worlds

    fellow endurance racers take note. the 24 hours of Moab, has long been the 24 hour Amtri worlds..few know this. Solos and teams take note, that it is not the race director who determins what a world championship is, it is the racers who show up to the venue and race. We have a promoter out their, Laird Knight, who has shown us time and time again, what a great event he can put on. A tough course, great camping, great results, right at our fingertips, state of the art computer systems, and get this a super large cash purse to the top soloists...top three might I add..he is a great promoter, who we need to start recognizing.

    I just spoke with him at length via phone, about the need for a true World chamionships, a great venue, where racers are treated with respect. The 24 hours of Moab, is the perfect place for this. I raced here solo last year, and the course is challenging, yet fair, and worthy of being a world championship course. Plus it is Moab..the home of mountain biking, what a perfect place for a worlds. Plus we do not have to travel to another country!

    Long story short, Laird, will back us 100%. He said he will do his part to make this event, the 24 hours of Moab, a true World chamionship. It is time someone does things the right way.

    calling Laird was my idea, Stuart might feel like he can take away our money, but he cannot take away our right for a real World Championship Calibur event.

    The ball is now in our court, I urge everyone to register for Moab this year. The New world Chamionship!

  29. #79
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    Good job! 24 hours Moab..a new worlds

    fellow endurance racers take note. the 24 hours of Moab, has long been the 24 hour Amtri worlds..few know this. Solos and teams take note, that it is not the race director who determins what a world championship is, it is the racers who show up to the venue and race. We have a promoter out their, Laird Knight, who has shown us time and time again, what a great event he can put on. A tough course, great camping, great results, right at our fingertips, state of the art computer systems, and get this a super large cash purse to the top soloists...top three might I add..he is a great promoter, who we need to start recognizing.

    I just spoke with him at length via phone, about the need for a true World chamionships, a great venue, where racers are treated with respect. The 24 hours of Moab, is the perfect place for this. I raced here solo last year, and the course is challenging, yet fair, and worthy of being a world championship course. Plus it is Moab..the home of mountain biking, what a perfect place for a worlds. Plus we do not have to travel to another country!

    Long story short, Laird, will back us 100%. He said he will do his part to make this event, the 24 hours of Moab, a true World chamionship. It is time someone does things the right way.

    calling Laird was my idea, Stuart might feel like he can take away our money, but he cannot take away our right for a real World Championship Calibur event.

    The ball is now in our court, I urge everyone to register for Moab this year. The New world Chamionship!

  30. #80
    Mythical Creature
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    Quote Originally Posted by hmosley
    fellow endurance racers take note. the 24 hours of Moab, has long been the 24 hour Amtri worlds..few know this. Solos and teams take note, that it is not the race director who determins what a world championship is, it is the racers who show up to the venue and race. We have a promoter out their, Laird Knight, who has shown us time and time again, what a great event he can put on. A tough course, great camping, great results, right at our fingertips, state of the art computer systems, and get this a super large cash purse to the top soloists...top three might I add..he is a great promoter, who we need to start recognizing.

    I just spoke with him at length via phone, about the need for a true World chamionships, a great venue, where racers are treated with respect. The 24 hours of Moab, is the perfect place for this. I raced here solo last year, and the course is challenging, yet fair, and worthy of being a world championship course. Plus it is Moab..the home of mountain biking, what a perfect place for a worlds. Plus we do not have to travel to another country!

    Long story short, Laird, will back us 100%. He said he will do his part to make this event, the 24 hours of Moab, a true World chamionship. It is time someone does things the right way.

    calling Laird was my idea, Stuart might feel like he can take away our money, but he cannot take away our right for a real World Championship Calibur event.

    The ball is now in our court, I urge everyone to register for Moab this year. The New world Chamionship!
    Ugh. Anywhere but Moab! That course & venue are terrible, IMO. Smoke, dust, sand, smoke, dust, sand - and more sand. Never mind Lee Bridgers assessment! Yikes.

    It is one of those event's that every mtbiker interested in sheer spectacle and endurance racing should check out sometime in their life... of all the events in the US/CAN - isn't there a better venue than Moab? Ack. The 24HOA course at McDowell Park is great, as is Epic Rides' Old Pueblo course (speaking of the few I have experience with...). What about Temecula? Sounds like that's OK, no? Moab just seems like an overly abused and unfun course, that thankfully the crowd and management of the evnt help temper - but riding that course is juts not very fun - again, except for the fact you're with similarly psycho buddies!

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  31. #81
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    I enjoy the Moab course. I've done it as a team, and as a solo. It does get smokey and sandy, but that is all part of the atmosphere that makes it an amazing event.
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  32. #82
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    What about 24 hours of the Ozarks. That's still TBA on their website and it's 3 weeks away! (And real close to me so I'd actually consider going).

  33. #83
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    wow

    wow, i've never raced a big 24 hour event.
    local 12 hour for a few years but that's about it.

    I do it for the comrodery, not the compotion...

    and after reading this I'll never do one for 24hoa

    I ran into this subject on one of my buddies blogs. and followed the links until I got here and read all this.

    It made me so pissed off, I've flubbed off work all morning just to read this, set up an account, and all to tell Stewart.

    dude, you suck.
    get outa puttin on races,
    your giving it a bad name.

    3p0

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    I'm calling Bullsh** - The Truth about Trilife

    Quote Originally Posted by twenty4 sports
    Please note that Granny Gears fees are substantially move than ours for example. Do your fact checking before posting. Speaking of Granny Gear... Larid Knight sued Trilife two years ago and the company was lost to bankruptcy. NOTE... he sued use for the rules for 24 hour racing... I ask the question who should control the rules? He sued us for the use of "24 Hours of _______" anything... that's right folks....
    I typically keep to my work and haven't taken the opportunity to peruse these boards but several of my racers have informed me about this thread. First, I'd like to say, I'm really imressed with how much buzz there is about 24-hour racing. I created this format for the mountain biker's keen nose for fun and it's gratifying to see how much fun is being had.

    Second, I want to acknowledge Nat Ross for his excellent list of criteria for a great 24-hour race: http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php...923&postcount=9

    Lastly, I'm calling Bullshi**! on Stuarts rhetoric

    1st Bullshi**!: Stuart, stop spinning the facts. Let's look at the largest class, the 4-person team:
    24hoa 4-person team $575 + 10 web fee + $20 insurance fee = $605
    GGP 4-person team $560 + 12 cc processing = $572 (substantially more? No, actually less)
    Even GGP's solo enty is less AND we award 50% CASH back to the racers

    2nd Bullshi**!: Stuart dumped $285,000 on his creditors when he bankrupted Trilife. He was involved in three lawsuits at the time, all of which were created by his actions. Granny Gear Productions won its lawsuit against Trilife because Stuart was in blatant copyright infringment AND cyber-piracy. Stuart weasled out of paying his bills AND dodged judgements that were coming his way. He didn't event pay his lawyers. They are some of the creditors listed in the bankruptcy papers!

    Stuart, stop whining. It's SO un-becoming. You got a HUGE break. And stop blaming me for all your problems just because I have the integrity to protect my intellectual property and my trademarks. (And the integrity to pay my bills)

    BTW Folks, GGP does allow transfering or forwarding entry fees. Come join us in Moab if you can. It's an absolutely spectacular event. Keep the rubber side down.

    http://www.grannygear.com
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  35. #85
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    Ridiculous

    Just read through all of this post. I have never raced a 24 hour event and probably never will. In fact, I am not a racer at all. So, perhaps I cannot fully appreciate all of this. However, this appears to me to be the most blatant use of a business to carry out a personal grudge that I have ever seen.

    Stuart (whoever you are) - It's clear that you had some dirty laundry aired on this post. Unfortunately, you have mishandled it and created even more. It appears to me that the person you banned from your race was trying to merely give constructive criticism. The result of that was a lot of people saying a lot of things about you here in this forum. Whether or not any of it is true, I don't know. But, judging just by the information on this post it is very evident that you are not getting to the heart of the real issue - your relationship with and image amongst the racers. Banning a racer because of his well-intended comments will not make up for this. He is not the source of your frustration. Those who jumped in and lambasted you on this forum are. You missed your target.

  36. #86
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    A REAL world champ

    A real world championship? How 'bout one that actually includes races around the world?

    Want one that's cheap? How 'bout one that's cheaper than any 24HOA or Granny Gear race. One that includes a $20,000 cash purse, free camping, free spectating, and free massage for racers.

    Want to know the quality of the race? Ask around about Mountain Mayhem and Sleepless in the Saddle in the UK. These races sell out within 48 hours after the race registration opens, simply because they are great races run by an organizer who works for the racers.

    Bike Magazine agrees.

    Nat Ross designed the course

    Sleepless in the Saddle USA

    I know Laird, and I like him. I think he puts on great races. He's dedicated to the sport, and his passion shows through.
    Last edited by Cyclenaut; 08-29-2005 at 04:31 PM.
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  37. #87
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    I'm calling Bullsh** - Again

    Quote Originally Posted by twenty4 sports
    Never have I never stated that I started 24 hour racing... larid did. Producing great events is what we have been doing for years and yes these days we are challenged due to the lawsuit from Granny Gear against Trilife... the point is that he wants to own the rules and regulations to 24 hour mountain biking and if he would have won, precedence would have been set and everyone would need to pay the piper. The shear fact that you and larid spoke during the lawsuit speaks volumes. Continue putting on great events, and enjoy kicking a man when he is down.
    I've countered some of Stuart's other rhetoric, so why stop now? It's important that folks know the truth about Trilife. This kind of warped spin should not go unanswered.

    Let's break this down, line by line:
    Never have I never stated that I started 24 hour racing... larid did. Yes, I did. And how did I do that? Perhaps by writing the rules?

    these days we are challenged due to the lawsuit from Granny Gear against Trilife Considering that you got out from under $285,000 of debt and weaseled out of the $135,000 judgement that Granny Gear Productions won against you, exactly how is it that you are challenged? Isn't it you creditors who had to absorb your debts the ones who are now chllenged?

    ... the point is that he wants to own the rules and regulations to 24 hour mountain biking No, I only want to own the copyrighted rules that I wrote and crafted based on 12 years of mountain bike racing and race promoting. The rules that you saw fit to copy, verbatim, and use as your own. That's called copywrite infringement and a court of law found you guilty of it. Anyone is welcome to create their own set of rules to govern whatever kind of race they would like to create.

    and if he would have won, (We DID win) precedence would have been set and everyone would need to pay the piper. No, only those who wish to use MY rules need to pay, as several race promoters who sanction their events with AMTRI do. They get a handsome return on their investment by being able to get the credibility of using the original rules legitimately and attracting racers far and wide who are accustomed to these rules.

    The shear fact that you (Adam Rupell from Chico Racing a Canadian competitor to Stuart) and larid spoke during the lawsuit speaks volumes The only volume it speaks to me is that I really enjoyed meeting Adam. He a mountain biker's mountain biker. And while I've never attended one of his 24-hour races, he's earned a great reputation. No surprise to me. He's clearly dedicated to the sport.

    Continue putting on great events, and enjoy kicking a man when he is down. There you go again, playing the victim. For goodness sake, start taking responsibility. YOU created this.
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  38. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by laird@grannygear.com
    I've countered some of Stuart's other rhetoric, so why stop now? It's important that folks know the truth about Trilife. This kind of warped spin should not go unanswered.

    Let's break this down, line by line:
    Never have I never stated that I started 24 hour racing... larid did. Yes, I did. And how did I do that? Perhaps by writing the rules?

    these days we are challenged due to the lawsuit from Granny Gear against Trilife Considering that you got out from under $285,000 of debt and weaseled out of the $135,000 judgement that Granny Gear Productions won against you, exactly how is it that you are challenged? Isn't it you creditors who had to absorb your debts the ones who are now chllenged?

    ... the point is that he wants to own the rules and regulations to 24 hour mountain biking No, I only want to own the copyrighted rules that I wrote and crafted based on 12 years of mountain bike racing and race promoting. The rules that you saw fit to copy, verbatim, and use as your own. That's called copywrite infringement and a court of law found you guilty of it. Anyone is welcome to create their own set of rules to govern whatever kind of race they would like to create.

    and if he would have won, (We DID win) precedence would have been set and everyone would need to pay the piper. No, only those who wish to use MY rules need to pay, as several race promoters who sanction their events with AMTRI do. They get a handsome return on their investment by being able to get the credibility of using the original rules legitimately and attracting racers far and wide who are accustomed to these rules.

    The shear fact that you (Adam Rupell from Chico Racing a Canadian competitor to Stuart) and larid spoke during the lawsuit speaks volumes The only volume it speaks to me is that I really enjoyed meeting Adam. He a mountain biker's mountain biker. And while I've never attended one of his 24-hour races, he's earned a great reputation. No surprise to me. He's clearly dedicated to the sport.

    Continue putting on great events, and enjoy kicking a man when he is down. There you go again, playing the victim. For goodness sake, start taking responsibility. YOU created this.

    Laird

    Thanks for clarifying the issue. I've always been confused by this supposed wanting to own the rules of 24 hour racing. It looks like Homer Simpson laziness and not taking the time to sit down to think up some original 24 hour racing rules caused the whole problem.
    You were just basically saying, "I wrote some rules. Go write your own because if you want to use mine there's a fee for that." Got it.

    Mario

  39. #89
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    Hey Laird, since you're here, any info on 24 Hours of Ozarks?? There's a whole mess of insane endurance racers in the KC area who are interested.

  40. #90
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    I guess the lesson learned here is "What comes around goes around".

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    No Refund if banned?

    Quote Originally Posted by sperky
    .........Kudos to Jeff for trying to clarify his point in a response instead of being upset about the rudeness of Stuart.

    Now the next question is how Stuart will handle Jeff's refund, particular since that is what started this whole thread in the first place.
    That was exactly my thought on this matter. Does a "NO REFUNDS" policy hold if the promoter bans a rider?

    Without knowing the full background to the two individuals it seems that Stuart may have been a little stressed with event organisation and that may be why he took the Soup Nasty approach (being PC). Let's face it there's competitors from all over the world coming along, a mate and his wife (sorry, volunteer) just left Australia for Canada today.

    Talking about 24HOA qualifiers, great events and BIG 24 hr races, we are 38 days away from the start of the 2005 MONT here in Canberra, Australia. 2,400 riders and an equal number of supporters will descend on Kowen Forest for our biggest 24hr race and probably one of the biggest in the world, at least in terms of numbers if not international status. Interestingly, it's still run by a club and not a professional promoter. The Mont

  42. #92
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    Ban me too!

    I've read the threads and I think Sturat is ridiculous!

    I raced my first 24hoa at Hurkey Creek this spring. I was on a 10 person coporate team. I was there to have fun and did. I decided not to go this fall because of the price. I'm not your typical racer, just an enthusiast who likes to ride a lot. I am very dissapointed to hear how 24hoa operates.

    Unless Sturat kisses some major a$$ and lifts his ban on Jeff and makes a public apology and makes things right I may never go back and I'm sure many more will do the same. Besides his price is getting out of control.

    If Sturat responds and straightens out this mess then good for him.

    If he doesn't then Fock 24hoa.

  43. #93
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    Nothing left to lose, & half mad.

  44. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclenaut
    A real world championship? How 'bout one that actually includes races around the world?

    Want one that's cheap? How 'bout one that's cheaper than any 24HOA or Granny Gear race. One that includes a $20,000 cash purse, free camping, free spectating, and free massage for racers.

    Want to know the quality of the race? Ask around about Mountain Mayhem and Sleepless in the Saddle in the UK. These races sell out within 48 hours after the race registration opens, simply because they are great races run by an organizer who works for the racers.

    Bike Magazine agrees.

    Nat Ross designed the course

    Sleepless in the Saddle USA

    I know Laird, and I like him. I think he puts on great races. He's dedicated to the sport, and his passion shows through.

    I'm throwing my support behind these guys. I think in order to be a true World Championship the race should be held on more than one continent.

    Jim
    Fatter than most.

  45. #95
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    the last event i have done/will do with 24hoa was ths u.s. nat'ls. upon arriving his people charged me extra money for having my wife along as my support, but since she was not a racer they charged an extra $5. good thing they didn't see my 6mo. old boy in back! i had to track him down twice to get my money back, but i eventually did.

    the race event was a complete flop imo! no differentation between those of us competing in the nat'l solo competition vs those in the team or regular class. no assigned pits. no rankings. the course was not completed until the evening before, and it ended up being different than what they were initially telling riders.

    i also had numerous emails with stuart and his staff trying to get a copy of the dvd made/shown at the awards banquet the fall before at the 2004 wsc in whistler. i was promised on 3 different occasions, including in person at the nat'ls, that i would be getting one. i even offered to send him some helmet cam footage of the courses. glad i didn't waste my money with that!! until these issues are resolved i will not plan on attending another event.

    adam (chico) has done an awesome job! i suggest his events to all of my biking friends, and attend 3-4 of his events each year...1st class!!!! i am planning to attend a gg event soon as well as some other new promoters

    stuart, i urge you to consider the racers' comments and situations more seriously, and definitely follow through on your promises. i'm always glad to help out promoters when i have a chance as i know also how much work goes into preparing just the course to be raced.

  46. #96
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    Larid...

    I cannot wait to answer your BS...

    I will concentrate on the task at hand and will certainly tell the facts as they are, not what you state there are.

    Riders... ask Larid should anyone own the rules to 24 Hour Racing?

  47. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by twenty4 sports
    I cannot wait to answer your BS...

    Riders... ask Larid should anyone own the rules to 24 Hour Racing?
    Yes, if Laird copyrighted them, which I believe he did, he should own the rights to them. Is there some reason that you can't write your own rules?

    Unbelievable that you plan to have this fight on the internet for all to witness.....a true professional!

    For your own sake and the "future of the sport".... take your grieveances out of the public eye.

    You have no idea how many people read these boards and base their opinions on what they read. I have a feeling this whole soap opera will haunt you for a while.

    B
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  48. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by twenty4 sports
    I cannot wait to answer your BS...

    I will concentrate on the task at hand and will certainly tell the facts as they are, not what you state there are.

    Riders... ask Larid should anyone own the rules to 24 Hour Racing?

    [pedantic]

    L-a-i-r-d

    [/pedantic]

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  49. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by twenty4 sports
    Riders... ask Larid should anyone own the rules to 24 Hour Racing?
    If they're his rules he does, you bunghole. You don't know when to shut up. The backlash from stupidly banning Jeff is going to be felt in your pocketbook for years. Shut up while everyone just thinks you're a dick and not a flaming *******. Word of mouth is murder when you stick your foot in your mouth like this. You should apologize, let jeff race free, and kiss ass for a year.

  50. #100
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    In the past Trilife/Twenty4Sports was organized behind the scenes by individuals who cared about the sport and did a pretty good job in spite of Mr.Dorland. Now that Twenty4 Sports is a one man show you are seeing the true Mr. Dorland shine through.

    His organization destroyed their reputation in a few short months locally in Ontario and even threatened a Canadian cycling website to supply the IP addresses of those who posted negative comments about Trilife/Twenty4 Sports because they wanted to seek legal action against them. The website administrator posted Stuart's wishes on their own site sending posters into even more of a frenzy.

    You've witnessed an athlete and customer of Twenty4 Sports who posted fair comments about Twenty4 Sports and for that he was banned from doing their "Worlds". This is terrible, but not surprising, as this is how Stuart treats many of his clients/participants or anyone who questions his policies. In turn he's generated more bad press for his company, and lost customers, yet he comes to post a rebutal to Laird instead of an apology to Jeff and retraction of the ban.

    Stuart it is obvious you made a rash decision against Jeff and you need to help him race at your 24 hour Worlds. You might salvage whatever is left of your reputation in the process.

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