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Thread: 2007 KTR Update

  1. #101
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    KTR Elevation gain

    My GPS got alot more then you are posting:

    Aprox: Loma-Dewey 4500ft
    Dewey-Slickrock 9500ft

  2. #102
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    ccc
    Last edited by dirtdonk; 05-07-2007 at 07:22 AM.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgillest
    My GPS got alot more then you are posting:

    Aprox: Loma-Dewey 4500ft
    Dewey-Slickrock 9500ft
    previous experiences have indicated that gps's are great for telling you longitude and latitude but suck for altitude

  4. #104
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    I think most published maps and guides put the climbing right around 14k.
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  5. #105
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    I just got back from riding Loma to Onion Creek. It was good to get out and see the course, changed my water strategy thinking.

    I ran into EnduroDoug on Saturday while I was back-tracking in the rain/hail because I turned around because of a barb-wired gate. There are a few of these gates, hope you don't come up on the one a little beyond Fish Ford in the dark and with no clue that it's coming up; it's a high speed approach.

    Doug and I rode together all the way to Onion Creek, I had to bail out to 128 to get back to Denver and he was going to camp and finish today, lots of snow had fallen and was visible from his campsite off of Onion Creek.

    IIRC the elevation gains Doug had on his GPS were:
    Loma - Westwater: ~1800'
    Westwater to Onion Creek Rd.: ~6000'
    Now that I look at those I think I could be way off in my memory.

    One last note, we rolled through the sheep herd and only saw one sheepdog (looked like a white St. Bernard) and he wasn't aggressive, he just watched us while sitting in the middle of the road. No aggressive dog encounters so far this year.
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  6. #106
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    One other thing I think is worth noting.

    With the direction change this year it will be harder for people to bail out. Cell phone reception is basically non-existent on the 2nd half of the course. If you bail out, you still have some riding to do to get to a ride or cell phone reception.

    I wonder if this will increase the finishing rate as people will not be able to reach their rides and just think "Oh well, just keep truckin then."

    When I got down Onion Creek Rd. I tried to make a call on my way towards I-70; basically I had no/very poor reception until I was just inside the Colorado border. I have Verizon and an all-digital phone (no analog service available to me).
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by nepbug
    One last note, we rolled through the sheep herd and only saw one sheepdog (looked like a white St. Bernard) and he wasn't aggressive, he just watched us while sitting in the middle of the road. No aggressive dog encounters so far this year.


    I don't know why but it seems I am the only one to ever have had an incident with the sheep dogs out there and it was just the one episode in March last year, with three of them in a pack "herding" me. No one has ever reported any problems other than me.

    I love dogs and generally never get frightened or nervous around them.

    Looking forward to seeing you all in a couple of weeks.

    Ed E

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by edemtbs
    I don't know why but it seems I am the only one to ever have had an incident with the sheep dogs out there and it was just the one episode in March last year, with three of them in a pack "herding" me. No one has ever reported any problems other than me.
    Were you wearing wool that day!?

  9. #109
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    Hi,

    This will be my first attempt at the KTR and really true desert riding (minus two 24 Moabs). As a former corn-fed midwesterner now living on the CO frontrange, I'm slipping into on my black socks, loafers, and putting the tourist camera around my neck for this one. Planning to ride, enjoy the scenery, and finish with a big smile on my face. Could anyone help with advice that will reduce my current fears of:

    1. running out of water. -I plan to carry about a 1.5 gallon on me and iodine tabs.
    2. getting lost. -I now own the Lat 40 maps and have been studying, but all this talk of landmarks is confusing me a bit.
    --Could someone break apart the course into about 4 or 5 segments (check for water here... careful of getting confused and lost here... halucinegnic visions start here...)

    Not too worried about the distance as I've done several 24 solos but this will be a sweet step into a new purity of riding.

    Thanks much!
    -Greg

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Were you wearing wool that day!?
    Yes

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Were you wearing wool that day!?
    LOL!

    I was chased by them last year too. Rode through there solo, so they had no other distractions. I kept upping the pace hoping to outrun them, but I never could ride with the big dogs...

    As for elevation gain, my barometric altimeter read a cumulative gain of ~14,600 from Slickrock to Loma.
    The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -TJ

  12. #112
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    will skip the 2nd half pre-ride

    Quote Originally Posted by hairball_dh
    That's a significant ride for the week prior - is it part of a good taper? It depends on what your training has been like. Generally speaking, a 2 week taper would have you doing something like 70% normal volume week 1 and 40-50% week 2 (but frequency the same or increased), with intensity the same or perhaps slightly higher. I like to do a 4-5 hour quick MTB ride the week prior to big ones where cadence is generally higher than typical.

    There are two things about your proposed route that might require adjustments to make it the perfect ride: the sustained grade of the shandy climbs, and the length. If it was me, I'd probably take out the entrada blufffs part, maybe loop onion creek and descend castleton. That gets rid of the steeper climbing and gets it in the 4 hour ballpark.

    But, everyone's different in this regard. Have fun with it!
    Thanks for the specific input.
    I have never really worried to much about trying to do a specific taper for a event but this year I have a modestly good base and want to optimize my chance to finish. (and with a good personal time)
    So my main goal is to do some type of “taper”, but my secondary goal is to get in some ride time in the desert heat. I had hoped to pre-ride some of the climbs on the 2nd half of the KT but sorry to say I already pretty much know what I will be facing there come race day.
    Anyway I will probably just slap on the seldom used heart monitor and do several 1-3 hour fast “fun rides’ around GJ and/or Fruita area, watch my HR and try to get my body heated up in the sun.
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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregl
    Hi,

    This will be my first attempt at the KTR and really true desert riding (minus two 24 Moabs). As a former corn-fed midwesterner now living on the CO frontrange, I'm slipping into on my black socks, loafers, and putting the tourist camera around my neck for this one. Planning to ride, enjoy the scenery, and finish with a big smile on my face. Could anyone help with advice that will reduce my current fears of:

    1. running out of water. -I plan to carry about a 1.5 gallon on me and iodine tabs.
    2. getting lost. -I now own the Lat 40 maps and have been studying, but all this talk of landmarks is confusing me a bit.
    --Could someone break apart the course into about 4 or 5 segments (check for water here... careful of getting confused and lost here... halucinegnic visions start here...)

    Not too worried about the distance as I've done several 24 solos but this will be a sweet step into a new purity of riding.

    Thanks much!
    -Greg

    Others may know of different/better water sources but:

    You should be able to get water at the following:

    1) Water spigot at Westwater Ranger Station (slightly off route)

    2) You can easily touch the Colorado River at:
    Cisco Landing
    McGraw Bottom
    Dewey Bridge (mile 77)

    3) Fisher Creek at the TOP of Fisher Valley (mile 109)

    4) Castle Creek (about mile 115)

    The hard part, imo, for reliable water will be from Dewey to mile 109,

    Good Luck!
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  14. #114
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    Advantage to the slow

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan_G
    LOL!

    I was chased by them last year too. Rode through there solo, so they had no other distractions. I kept upping the pace hoping to outrun them, but I never could ride with the big dogs...

    As for elevation gain, my barometric altimeter read a cumulative gain of ~14,600 from Slickrock to Loma.
    The sheep dogs were so tired from chasing all the fast riders that they just watched from the shade under the herder’s trailer when I went slowly by
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  15. #115
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    Greetings ~ Great thread!

    Could you please offer some beta regarding a 29er SS gear recommendation? I was going to try the Dewey to Moab route prior to the event and rather than dogging the first attempt I am curious what would offer onsight success. I also noticed that there were a couple other events and tours at that time. Is any sort of special KT etiquette observed?

    I am still working on getting the weekend off from work, if successful I will be there at 2300 in Fruita. If unsuccessful I will be able to help out with a shuttle run.

  16. #116
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    Gearing

    32:19 29er SS. Good cruising gear, IMO.

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  17. #117
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    Almost that time

    one week til i leave for the KTR and i think i'm as ready as i'm gonna be.i've been getting my miles in here in so-cal. i got my filtration and i'm probaly hauling about 150-200oz's of water most of which will be spiked with perpetuim and sustained energy.that should at least get me to dewey bridge or maybe even fisher valley area. I've never rode in the moab area so that just makes this more of an adventure. i've been studying my maps and reading the blogs and looking at pics from those lucky anough to ride this area on a regular bases (d.h. and cellarrat to name a couple).
    a homie of mine is going along just to drive my car back to moab so now i don't have to hitch a ride back to the start. We should be arriving in moab around 5-6pm on wed. from so -cal and camping out. ride some Wednesday nite Thursday morning i'll get to ride some more off the last parts of the KTR then we head to loma so i should have a chance to pre-ride some of the beginning.
    BIG QUESTION! Food in Loma.I haven't been able to find a motel for friday close by so i might be camping out. Is there anything close to the start were i'll be able to get some grub between 7-10 o'clock (PM) or should i plan on bringing my colemon stove and cooking myself?
    ANOTHER QUESTION- TIRES? Right now i'm running kenda small blocks (love these tires ), 2.1 in the front and a 1.9 rear. i'm thinking about running 2.1 front and rear. Any thoughts on this?
    I can't wait to meet everyone. I no this is a race but my goal is just to finish .Hopefully within 15-18 hours.
    Are cellphones aloud? i read on the GDR thread that this is not excepted.(GDR-2012 is the goal) i just wanted to text my location before i head into the la sals were there is no cellphone service. It would make my wife really happy

    www.veezeprice.blogspot.com (bicycle on the brain)

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by vzman
    one week til i leave for the ktr and i think i'm as ready as i'm gonna be.i've been getting my miles in here in so-cal. i got my filtration and i'm probaly hauling about 200oz's of water spiked with perpetuim and sustained energy.that should at least get me to dewey bridge area. Ive never rode in the moab area so that just makes this more of an adventure. i've been studying my maps and reading the blogs and looking at pics from those lucky anough to ride this area on a regular bases (d.h. and cellarrat to name a couple).
    a homie of mine is going along just to drive my car back to moab so now i don't have to hitch a ride back to the start. We should be arriving in moab around 5-6pm on wed. from so -cal and camping out. ride some Wednesday nite Thursday morning i'll get to ride some more off the last parts of the KTR then we head to loma so i should have a chance to pre-ride some of the beginning.
    BIG QUESTION! Food in Loma.I haven't been able to find a motel for friday close by so i might be camping out. Is there anything close to the start were i'll be able to get some grub between 7-10 o'clock (PM) or should i plan on bringing my colemon stove and cooking myself?
    ANOTHER QUESTION- TIRES? Right now i'm running kenda small blocks (love these tires ), 2.1 in the front and a 1.9 rear. i'm thinking about running 2.1 front and rear. Any thoughts on this?
    I can't wait to meet everyone. I no this is a race but my goal is just to finish .Hopefully within 15-18 hours.
    Are cellphones aloud? i read on the gdr thread that this is not excepted.(GDR-2012 is my goal) i just wanted to text my location before i head into the la sals were there is no cellphone service. It would make my wife really happy

    www.veezeprice.blogspot.com (bicycle on the brain)
    Suggestion on the water plan: since the race starts at midnight, the first 6 hours will be relatively cool - 50's probably. Your water use will be not that great. Once the sun comes up and (if it's sunny and warm) your water use may quadruple. When your water useage goes up, you will want straight water. Any more when riding in the desert, I mix only one bottle of sports drink at a time. I've been caught a few times with only sports drink and no water and when it's stewing at 100F in your bottle it's mank.

    There are several fast food places in Fruita, it's right on interstate 70 and roughly 5 miles from the trailhead.

    On tires, I prefer floaty as there are lots of opportunities to flat out there in rocky terrain. Sand too. But if you are used to 1.9s...

    Cell phones: that's the million dollar question. I think the rule goes something like this: take it, but once you use it it's a DSQ. That's for the GDR. It's Adam's call on how strict we interpret those rules and apply them to KTR.

    Sounds like you've got a good plan, finishing is a great goal for the first KTR. It's a bit of a beast
    Dave

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  19. #119
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    i'll probaly just condence my fuels into a couple of bottles the rest is straight water.. thanks for the input
    www.veezeprice.blogspot.com

  20. #120
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    Cell Phones...

    Reception is pretty sketchy out on most of the route, so it is most likely a non-issue. However, for simplicities sake, I am going to go ahead and cite the GDR rule here:

    Cell phones are allowed for GDR [KTR] racers' emergency use only. By all means--bring it with you to satiate that need for "insurance". But keep it stashed away unless you're in dire straits. If you really, really need to use it, DO NOT HESITATE to do so. But once you've used it, you are DQ'd from the race. No exceptions.

    I think that is pretty reasonable, especially for this race. There is no need to call in updates as to your whereabouts at the KTR. Feel free to carry one, and use it if the situation arises...and if you can get a signal.
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  21. #121
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    Alrighty then rules are rules and i tend to go by them.C'ya on the trail. Cell phone turned off

  22. #122
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    32:19 29er SS. Good cruising gear, IMO

    You are a beast Soloracer!
    ?Do you ride up the hills?

  23. #123
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    Ride up them?

    Naw-- I have people who do that for me.

    Never thought too much about the gearing. I rode the Kokopelli once with 32:20 and spent most of my time wishing I had a different gear, went 32:19 and have never changed back. I may walk more than others, but when races go from hours to days walking is not a bad thing.
    Fatter than most.

  24. #124
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    I clocked 142.3 miles and 17,720 feet elevation gain when I rode KT a few weeks ago.

  25. #125
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    Good job! Another first timer

    I thought I'd say "hey" to everyone, from Chapel Hill, NC. This will be my first attempt at the KTR - I'm flying out there tomorrow to spend the week in Moab doing logistics. As with a lot of the other newbies, my goal is only to finish, hopefully before midnight the next night! I'd like to add to the very small but growing list of women who've finished the race... I grew up in Utah (started MTBing in '84) and have ridden most of the trail (in sections) so I think I have a good idea what I'm in for... but who knows. I've had lots of time on the bike this season, though haven't been able to do any really long rides. And it has been a few years since I've been on that trail. We'll see.

    My plan for water is to carry about 100 oz in the pack plus two bottles, and use iodine tabs (I'll probably carry an extra bladder, just in case). I don't mind drinking silty water if need be, I've done it before I'll be riding on my recently restored Fat Chance Yo Eddy (hardtail), with suspension up front. I contemplated the singlespeed option for about two minutes, and decided I just am not woman enough for that.

    One question for the group, I'm wondering if it's within race parameters for my SO and daughter to hang out at Dewey bridge and for me to wave that I'm ok as I go by?(hopefully it will be a wave ok... or DNF if something is wrong, like my knee acting up...) Any other comments on my plan or setup are welcome too...!

    Hope to see you all next week.
    Morgan
    Last edited by mcgurme; 05-12-2007 at 03:29 PM.

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcgurme
    One question for the group, I'm wondering if it's within race parameters for my SO and daughter to hang out at Dewey bridge and for me to wave that I'm ok as I go by?
    Last year there were lots of people out on the course, cheering, waving, etc. I was surprised by it, but I didn't think it violated any rules. As long as they don't provide you with anything other than a wave, I suppose there's no harm in it.
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  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcgurme
    I thought I'd say "hey" to everyone, from Chapel Hill, NC. This will be my first attempt at the KTR........................
    ........
    One question for the group, I'm wondering if it's within race parameters for my SO and daughter to hang out at Dewey bridge and for me to wave that I'm ok as I go by?(hopefully it will be a wave ok... or DNF if something is wrong, like my knee acting up...) Any other comments on my plan or setup are welcome too...!

    Hope to see you all next week.
    Morgan
    Adam may want to chime in on this one but here is my take (never mind I see Adam all ready gave the official answer while I was typing this up)

    You should NOT pre-arrange your SO and daughter to meet/cheer you anywhere along the course if you intend to truly do this event Self-Supported per the INTENT of this type of event.

    IE: By placing a car at Dewey you are pre-arranging a possible bail-out/support.
    The problem with this from a pure “race perspective” is that someone using this approach may choose to “race” a different pace and/or gear (water, food, clothing, tools ext ) strategy there by gaining a possible advantage over the competitor who planned to handle any “contingency” without a KNOWN person/help somewhere along the way

    That said others did exactly what you are suggesting in 06. I was tempted to do the same in 06 but did not and will not do so this yr.

    However in 06 I DQed myself at Cisco Landing and had someone else’s SO (who was there to cheer on her rider) use my cell phone to call the wife for a pick up.

    IMO if you ride and finish it’s BIG accomplishment, with or with-out pre-staging a vehicle at Dewey. At the end of the day it’s your call

    Good Luck on your ride
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  28. #128
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    Well, I hate for my answers to be too "official". I just want to see this race continue, and people enjoy doing it.

    It is sort of a gray area, having people out there to cheer you on/watch the race. Last year it was nice to have someone say "good job" or "looking good" or whatever. I think what it comes down to is looking at what type of experience YOU want to have. I don't care if people ride the whole thing with support--just don't call yourself a finisher of the race.

    Technically having someone there to wave at you, smile at you is not in violation of the KTR rules. It IS a violation of the GLR rules. But this isn't the GLR.

    Personally I don't have an issue with it. Further, I can't really control what non-racers do, they are free to roam about that route the same way we are.

    So, like I said, if they don't provide any physical/tangible form of support then I see no problem with it. Yes, it is a gray area, but like MC has pointed out, this is a race for adults who know what they are getting into.

    The bottom line for me, is to have everyone experience the race for what it is. A solo TT across the KT. There are gray areas with every rule, but I think if we follow the spirit of what we are trying to do, everyone should finish, or DNF, with a smile on their faces.
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  29. #129
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    Vehicle/backup

    Hi, thanks for your reply,

    Quote Originally Posted by trail717
    ...
    You should NOT pre-arrange your SO and daughter to meet/cheer you anywhere along the course if you intend to truly do this event Self-Supported per the INTENT of this type of event.

    IE: By placing a car at Dewey you are pre-arranging a possible bail-out/support.
    The problem with this from a pure “race perspective” is that someone using this approach may choose to “race” a different pace and/or gear (water, food, clothing, tools ext ) strategy there by gaining a possible advantage over the competitor who planned to handle any “contingency” without a KNOWN person/help somewhere along the way
    I suppose it boils down to intent. The original thinking/intent of having SO at Dewey would be so that SO knows I'm allright after a night of riding, not to provide a bail out. But then it occurred to me that it is a nice backup - since I've never attempted a race of this length before, I just simply don't know if I can do it. I want to finish and will be going with the full inent of doing so, and will be packing accordingly (tools/spares/food/electrolytes/first aid/etc). I guess in the end it seems not much different to me than having to bail out at any point getting a ride from a stranger. Which could happen, too - I might feel fine at Dewey, and bonk later in the heat... as others have had to do before me. So, that's my perspective, but I just wanted to make sure it is "accepted practice," and it sounds like it's probably ok, though not smiled upon by all...




    Quote Originally Posted by trail717
    Good Luck on your ride
    And likewise - I hope the weather gods smile upon us and don't dish up the kind of heat and wind that Mike described in his report from the 2002 GLTR.

  30. #130
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    Your Ride, Your Plan, 100% Your Call

    Quote Originally Posted by mcgurme
    Hi, thanks for your reply,



    I suppose it boils down to intent. The original thinking/intent of having SO at Dewey would be so that SO knows I'm allright after a night of riding, not to provide a bail out. But then it occurred to me that it is a nice backup - since I've never attempted a race of this length before, I just simply don't know if I can do it. I want to finish and will be going with the full inent of doing so, and will be packing accordingly (tools/spares/food/electrolytes/first aid/etc). I guess in the end it seems not much different to me than having to bail out at any point getting a ride from a stranger. Which could happen, too - I might feel fine at Dewey, and bonk later in the heat... as others have had to do before me. So, that's my perspective, but I just wanted to make sure it is "accepted practice," and it sounds like it's probably ok, though not smiled upon by all...

    And likewise - I hope the weather gods smile upon us and don't dish up the kind of heat and wind that Mike described in his report from the 2002 GLTR.
    The KTR was a huge jump for me last year and your questions and concerns remind me of my own as I contemplated doing it, something different, something with just a wee bit of ‘edge’.

    Adam stepped up to the plate to help insure the 07 version (hats off to him) and personally I think he has it just right for this particular self-supported event


    Originally Posted by alizbee
    Well, I hate for my answers to be too "official". I just want to see this race continue, and people enjoy doing it.

    It is sort of a gray area, having people out there to cheer you on/watch the race. Last year it was nice to have someone say "good job" or "looking good" or whatever. I think what it comes down to is looking at what type of experience YOU want to have. I don't care if people ride the whole thing with support--just don't call yourself a finisher of the race.

    Technically having someone there to wave at you, smile at you is not in violation of the KTR rules. It IS a violation of the GLR rules. But this isn't the GLR.

    Personally I don't have an issue with it. Further, I can't really control what non-racers do, they are free to roam about that route the same way we are.

    So, like I said, if they don't provide any physical/tangible form of support then I see no problem with it. Yes, it is a gray area, but like MC has pointed out, this is a race for adults who know what they are getting into.

    The bottom line for me, is to have everyone experience the race for what it is. A solo TT across the KT. There are gray areas with every rule, but I think if we follow the spirit of what we are trying to do, everyone should finish, or DNF, with a smile on their faces.
    mcgurme, You seem to have a thoughtful plan for a 1st attempt, refine as best you can and then stick to your plan, make it work for you!!
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    Seems to me that this, along with things like cellphones, has two sides.

    First, seeing/talking to your SO/friend/mom/dog can psyche you up; they could provide a pep talk and reassure them that you're not dead (yet), which would in turn reassure you. One less psychological burden.

    On the other hand, there are plenty of occasions in endeavors such as these where if you can bail, it'll be waaay harder to make the decision to continue.

    To me this personal struggle seems like the essence of the race, anyway. For the KMC, I envision a black and white line for physical support, but the psychological end of things is every racers personal issue/problem/choice.

    My wife is coming along for the weekend, and whether she'll want to hang out and throw rocks as I go by or not is something we haven't discussed. I presume she'd rather go hiking or riding herself.

  32. #132
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    True

    Yep that's pretty much how I see it too Dave. Marni was at the Rim Ride but she chose not to be at any crossings so that I had no choice but to keep going except in the most extreme emergency. At TransIowa she was 900 miles away and I had no support person at all again except in the most extreme emergency. That "alone" attitude is great sometimes for motivation and focus. That being said I'm plenty confident that if she does head out to cheer me on at Dewey or elsewhere I will wave back and keep going without any support other than that psychological boost of seeing my favorite person in the world and letting her know that I'm okay. We both know the rules of these unsupported things and that helps a lot. Plus at this point she's seen the highs and lows of this sport and it's not quite so shocking.

    At other races she's been there just to cheer (supported and unsupported alike) and that was great too. I suspect at KTR she'll be sleeping in and then heading out to the finish directly without seeing me on course but who knows. I am not "planning" on seeing her until Slickrock Not seeing her for 3-4 days and not talking to her for 2 or 3 days (Bedrock payphone) at GLR will be much harder.
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  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    The bottom line for me, is to have everyone experience the race for what it is. A solo TT across the KT. There are gray areas with every rule, but I think if we follow the spirit of what we are trying to do, everyone should finish, or DNF, with a smile on their faces.
    Well said.
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  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcgurme



    I suppose it boils down to intent. The original thinking/intent of having SO at Dewey would be so that SO knows I'm allright after a night of riding, not to provide a bail out. .

    So, that's my perspective, but I just wanted to make sure it is "accepted practice," and it sounds like it's probably ok, though not smiled upon by all...
    My 2 cents...

    Having a SO who wants to stand at Dewey Bridge to cheer you go by is awesome. The race is about personal challenge and accomplishment. Finishing is a huge achievement and a wave at Dewey Bridge isn't gonna make a dam bit of difference to how fast you finish or your odds of finishing - you're gonna have to pedal the whole way for that one. Actually I think it reduces your odds of finishing giving you the bailout option.

    You are lucky to have that kind of support from someone important to you and I would value that waaaaay over a strict interpretation of a vague rule.

    Lynda
    2006 KTR finisher and over the moon to be a 2007 competitor

  35. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pivvay
    keep going without any support other than that psychological boost of seeing my favorite person in the world and letting her know that I'm okay. We both know the rules of these unsupported things and that helps a lot. .

    That's how I'm interpretting the cell phone rule as well. My family won't be out there for the KTR, and frequently when she's not able to come with me to a beautiful ride, I pick out a vista, or the sunrise, or the highest summit, and snap her a picture to send to her, accompanied by either a text-message or a quick conversation. It won't do anything to help me finish, it'll actually upset any rhythem that I may have, but if the moment strikes me, I'll dq myself just to tell her hi and that I'm thinking of her..
    "The search for a perfect pint should take lifetime." M.Jackson

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  36. #136
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    Thanks for your well wishes!

    Of all things, this morning I woke up with a sore throat and sniffles... real bummer. I hope I can get enough sleep and nutrition to kick this bug before the race day - I'm not sure I want to do my first attempt feeling sick...

    But, hoping I do get over it and get on the course for the race, my personal challenge is going to be staying really slow compared to my normal speed, i.e. not getting caught up in a race mentality. If I do get caught up, it won't be sustainable for that distance. I need to stay focused on just keeping a steady pace that will allow me to finish - something I've been inconsistent about with when I've done shorter race events both on the bike and on skiis. So here's to calm focus.

    Well, I hope I feel well enough to meet you all out there Friday!

    Morgan


    Quote Originally Posted by trail717
    The KTR was a huge jump for me last year and your questions and concerns remind me of my own as I contemplated doing it, something different, something with just a wee bit of ‘edge’.

    Adam stepped up to the plate to help insure the 07 version (hats off to him) and personally I think he has it just right for this particular self-supported event

    mcgurme, You seem to have a thoughtful plan for a 1st attempt, refine as best you can and then stick to your plan, make it work for you!!

  37. #137
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    You lovey dovey types make me sick. In a good way, of course.

  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by sportsman
    That's how I'm interpretting the cell phone rule as well... It won't do anything to help me finish, it'll actually upset any rhythem that I may have, but if the moment strikes me, I'll dq myself just to tell her hi and that I'm thinking of her..
    I'd strongly consider DQing myself on North Beaver Mesa if that meant a Peanut Buster Parfait. Just a dipped cone or Dilly Bar would probably not be worth it, I'd stay away from the DQ in that case.

    Maybe those racers who feel the need to 'phone home' so to speak could be listed as 'unclassified' as opposed to DQed...

    FW

  39. #139
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    Excellent discussion. I'm not racing this year (just got back from riding the Kokopelli though) with the support of my wife who provided sag support for my 3-day crossing and I know the biggest challenge I would face in doing KTR would not only be finishing but trying to keep my wife from waiting at Dewey Bridge to cheer on EVERYONE who went by. It wouldn't be out of concern of support, but because she's a racer and would simply want to be on the course to snap a photo or yell "good job" to every grimy mtn biker who pedaled by that morning.

    That said, I definitely enjoyed my trip across the KPT last week and was happy to run into Petey'sBike on the trails in the Fruita loops area and then also was happy to catch up to Nepbug after Rabbit Valley. Nepbug and I rode together to Westwater and then on/off throughout the second day all the way to Fisher Valley. Good luck in the race next weekend guys!

    I posted a quick 5-minute slideshow of my trip across the Kokopelli on YouTube. You can see it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47f_pcU6xac

    Enjoy!

  40. #140
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    By the way, I just noticed the discussion about elevatio gain. Here's the numbers my Edge 305 spit out.

    1) Loma to Westwater Ranger Station - 3,877 feet total ascent
    2) Westwater Ranger Station to Fisher Valley (i.e. top of Onion Creek Road) - 6,212 feet ascent.
    3) Fisher Valley to bottom of Porcupine Rim - 6,578 total feet.

    The Garmin was at about 6150 feet of gain when I reached the "lazy man's put-in" for Porcupine Rim. Keep in mind that because of incredible mud I had to stay on La Sal Mtn Loop Road and loop around on Sand Flats road instead of taking the Jeep road down from the summit.

    The Edge 305 uses barometric pressure and, so far in my use of it, has seemed very accurate.

  41. #141
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    Pre ride meeting? and Post race get together

    Hello everyone, just wondering the pre race meeting is at the trailhead and hour before the start, correct? Can we park overnight there at the kokopelli/mary';s trailhead? And finally we finish at the slickrock entrance, correct? Will there be any sort of post ride/race get together or do we all just want to sleep it off? Just wondering what';s up, trying to figure out if i should stick around Moab or get a ride back when done, can';t wait, see ya all soon Jefe

  42. #142
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    Chocolate Milk

    Quote Originally Posted by frejwilk
    I'd strongly consider DQing myself on North Beaver Mesa if that meant a Peanut Buster Parfait. Just a dipped cone or Dilly Bar would probably not be worth it, I'd stay away from the DQ in that case.

    Maybe those racers who feel the need to 'phone home' so to speak could be listed as 'unclassified' as opposed to DQed...

    FW
    No "unclassified" on This ride
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    Hopefully no DQ for me this yr
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  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by wookieone
    Hello everyone, just wondering the pre race meeting is at the trailhead and hour before the start, correct? Can we park overnight there at the kokopelli/mary';s trailhead? And finally we finish at the slickrock entrance, correct? Will there be any sort of post ride/race get together or do we all just want to sleep it off? Just wondering what';s up, trying to figure out if i should stick around Moab or get a ride back when done, can';t wait, see ya all soon Jefe
    Yeah, meet at the Loma TH at 11 PM. Finish will be at the Slickrock TH. I think a post race gathering will sort of just happen, like last year. Nothing was organized, some people stuck around for a while, and others went home. I am planning on sticking around until Sunday morning.
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  44. #144
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    yummmm...

    Ice cream at FW's place after the ride? kewl...
    "The search for a perfect pint should take lifetime." M.Jackson

    Ride bikes, not goats. Just good advice

  45. #145
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    Fri Eve Shuttle

    If I can get two more people interested in this shuttle then I will arrange it. So far 3 spots are taken on this shuttle van. It can accomodate 14 people/bikes. It will depart from Moab City Park. We will start loading at 7pm Friday evening at the park. The total cost will be $185. Leave your vehicle wherever you want, just be ready to load at 7pm. Bring check or cash for the driver.

    PM me to get on the ride list and I will share the ride status on this thread. Please include your cell phone number.

    -Adam

  46. #146
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    Hey Jefe

    I think that a number of us are planning on hitting the all you can eat pizza place (zax?) afterwards...
    "The search for a perfect pint should take lifetime." M.Jackson

    Ride bikes, not goats. Just good advice

  47. #147
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    Anyone know what the deal is with leaving a car at Loma? I know there is a chance of vandalism or theft...how likely, but how about park rangers/tow trucks, etc?
    Grammar and spelling errors are complementary.

  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwing_ding
    Anyone know what the deal is with leaving a car at Loma? I know there is a chance of vandalism or theft...how likely, but how about park rangers/tow trucks, etc?
    As I know it, you can leave your car at the Loma put in for the river. I don't think it is encouraged to leave your car in the Kokopelli lot, it gets pretty busy. As these events a kinda run under the radar (or not), I would not leave a car in Kokopelli lot as it might bring more attention to the race. I left my car at the Loma put in and had someone try to help themselves to my gas last year. Only they ended up scratching the sh!t out of my locking fuel door. Best bet is to leave it in Fruita. I usually leave my car in the dirt lot by McDonalds across from the State Patrol office.
    Fatter than most.

  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soloracer
    As these events a kinda run under the radar (or not), I would not leave a car in Kokopelli lot as it might bring more attention to the race. I.

    under the radar? bwwahhahaaa.. this one is in the Dirt Rag calendar of events.. going big time baby.. no longer a diaper dandy
    "The search for a perfect pint should take lifetime." M.Jackson

    Ride bikes, not goats. Just good advice

  50. #150
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    Just to clarify, it's $185 for the entire shuttle service. So if there's six people, it will cost riders $31 each. It's a nice way for your vehicle to be waiting for you at the finish.

  51. #151
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    Plans for Friday? Anyone up for hitting 18 road, say 4-5 pm?

  52. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by sportsman
    this one is in the Dirt Rag calendar of events.. going big time baby.. no longer a diaper dandy
    Is that a good thing?
    Fatter than most.

  53. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soloracer
    Is that a good thing?
    Probably not.
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  54. #154
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    Soapbox:on

    I think that races like the KTR are getting to big. I love the idea behind them, but once the participant number gets above 30 or so they are in danger. I know some of the "promoters" have recieved some not so nice letters from some of the governing agencies. They are aware of these types of events and I don't think they like the idea of them. That is why I was suggesting limiting the amount of cars at the start/finish. Park in town ride a few bonus miles. For these reasons and others-- I will not be racing this event. I'll be out there, doing my own tour. Modified double kokopelli, kinda a big lollipop (from Fruita not the parking lot). Just me and my gear. This time, I'm going to sleep. Racing the koko is appealing, but so is some quality time testing out some gear. Especially considering I have a rare 3day weekend, why would I want to spend 15 hours on the bike in race mode when I could spend 3 days on it? I'll probably see a few of you out there, I'll be chearing you on-- from the sidelines. Still think you should fly low and avoid the radar.

    Soapboxff
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  55. #155
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    Friday Shuttle Update - 8pm

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamF
    If I can get two more people interested in this shuttle then I will arrange it. So far 3 spots are taken on this shuttle van. It can accomodate 14 people/bikes. It will depart from Moab City Park. We will start loading at 7pm Friday evening at the park. The total cost will be $185. Leave your vehicle wherever you want, just be ready to load at 7pm. Bring check or cash for the driver.

    PM me to get on the ride list and I will share the ride status on this thread. Please include your cell phone number.

    -Adam
    We have 5 riders for the Moab-Fruita shuttle. We bumped it to 8pm to minimize time at the trailhead waiting for the start. Not to be confusing, the total cost of the shuttle is $185, so that gets split between riders. Again, just PM me if interested.

    cheers,
    Adam

  56. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soloracer
    I think that races like the KTR are getting to big. I love the idea behind them, but once the participant number gets above 30 or so they are in danger. I know some of the "promoters" have recieved some not so nice letters from some of the governing agencies. They are aware of these types of events and I don't think they like the idea of them. That is why I was suggesting limiting the amount of cars at the start/finish. Park in town ride a few bonus miles. For these reasons and others-- I will not be racing this event. I'll be out there, doing my own tour. Modified double kokopelli, kinda a big lollipop (from Fruita not the parking lot). Just me and my gear. This time, I'm going to sleep. Racing the koko is appealing, but so is some quality time testing out some gear. Especially considering I have a rare 3day weekend, why would I want to spend 15 hours on the bike in race mode when I could spend 3 days on it? I'll probably see a few of you out there, I'll be chearing you on-- from the sidelines. Still think you should fly low and avoid the radar.

    Soapboxff


    make sure you cheer on everybody. we wouldn't want anyone getting any unfair advantages

  57. #157
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    See everyone tommorrow for the KTR.
    Goodluck!

    Walter

  58. #158
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    Bike is go fly

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  59. #159
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    I hope everyone has a great time out there! It would have been great to meet you all, but unfortunately I won't be joining you since I have a nasty cold/flu thing I haven't kicked. All those months of training and preparation... down the tubes..

    Adam - thanks for organizing it! I hope the BLM doesn't hassle you all, that would be so lame if they did. Maybe I'll meet some of you if it happens next year, or on other trails down the road...

    Morgan

  60. #160
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    Yep. Ya'll have fun. I have to pull out as well this year to attend a memorial service for a friend. Really hurts to miss it, but not a good enough reason to miss the memorial. Ya'll have fun out there! I bet the guys in the back are gonna be amused by all the rabbit and kangaroo rat carnage that transpires through the night. Them rodent's ain't none too smart, an' like to challenge each other Frogger style...
    The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -TJ

  61. #161
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    Just got back, good ride even though I bailed out down Onion Creek Road.

    The BLM was there to greet everyone at the start in Loma, I'm sure others will elaborate more as I just listened for some of it and then hopped on my bike and started riding it at 11:30. I wasn't going to wait to see if there was any sort of organized start. I must say though that we as a group came off well in my opinion, everyone seemed to ask questions and make comments in a respectful manner and nobody was confrontational.

    Anybody know the temperature extremes on the course, I know it was in the 90's for a high(95?), but what was the low? I'm guessing in the low 40's.

    Approaching Westwater, I crested a small rise and the temperatures just dropped. Even though I had on arm warmers, leg warmers, beanie and long-fingered gloves I became a cold, shivering mess and was about 90 minutes slower on the Westwater to Dewy section because of it; I even put on my plastic rain jacket and was still freezing (no condesation buildup on the inside because I was too cold to sweat). I was totally caught off guard by that. At 7:30 I was still in all my warmers and the other riders I saw had stripped down and were sweating profusely, definitely a bad spot for me.

    It was nice to meet those of you that I did. Jen, hope you made it the entire way pushing that 32:20. Frank, maybe next time we should talk prior to the race so that we don't show up with the same bike and same jersey again. Greg, the look on your face when I said I was bailing at Onion Creek and that we probably had a good 6-7 hours to complete the ride was priceless, it was fun to bail out down onion creek with you. To the 3 single-speeders (one converted to SS at dewey due to a mechanical) doing the 4 mph pace line down 128, glad you made it to Moab ok.
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  62. #162
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    Nepbug, it was good meeting you two weeks ago and I'm glad you made it back okay. I have to tell you (and everyone) that after riding Koko in 3 days a couple weeks ago (not with Bikerpelli), I gained a profound respect for those of you going to attempt it all at once, unsupported. I'm still thinking of trying for next year, but there was no way I would have been ready to try it this year. Normally I don't believe in that whole "not that you finished, but that you had the courage to start" PC nonsense, but in this case I do. Nepbug, to get a taste of it two weeks ago via the three-day plan and then still come back 2 weeks later for the whole enchilada is impressive. Good luck with your other races this year.

    Sorry you didn't get to see what lies beyond the portions we rode together earlier in the month, but it sounds like you made the wise decision. So... did you ride 128 all the way back to the start? I'll get those pics to you shortly, work has been crazy since I got back.

    Can't wait for more ride reports.

  63. #163
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    It was fun, it was hard, it was not fun, it was cold, it was hot, it was rocky, it was flat, it was technical, it was on a lot of road, it was steep (in either direction), it was ugly, it was pretty, it was lonely, it was fully of people, it was so f-ing amazing that I could not possibly drink enough beer to fully come up with the superlative or embellishment that truly describes this thing.

    Rode it and finished it with my buddy Jeff and this was my first time riding Fruita and Moab. Umm....there is some nice riding up there in case you did not know that.

  64. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnduroDoug
    ... So... did you ride 128 all the way back to the start?...
    The plan was to ride 128 back to the Slickrock TH, but I actually had reception on one part of 128 and I called in the cavalry to pick me and Greg up somewhere between Onion Cr. and Castle Valley, but we had just split Greg's secret weapon (Starbuck's Espresso DoubleShot) and were ready to crank it out to the TH if necessary, we had plenty of water.

    I wasn't too proud to not accept a ride into town. I had noticed my sweat rate had decreased a great deal and took this as I was getting to a bad place with hydration. Even with me changing to drinking every 2 minutes shortly out of dewey I still couldn't seem to keep up. Maybe it's because this was the second ride of the year above 80 degrees for me, I sweated it all out quickly. The sweat rate decreasing might not have been an indication of my hydration levels going to total crap like I was thinking because I didn't wake up this morning with a headache from dehydration, though from the "pee color test" I still have to play catch-up a little longer. When I quit, my body felt good except for the cooked legs and the dislike of the flavor of turkey jerky (it tasted so good in previous rides).
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  65. #165
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    Hey Everybody,

    I had a great time last weekend. Good to see some familiar faces out there. Did anybody named Kwasniewski lose an expensive battery on Segment 4? I picked it up and have it.

    Dave from Minnesota, it was fun riding with you on the last bit. If you ever need a place in Boulder to crash, let me know.

    -Alan

  66. #166
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    Alan,

    I'm Jenifer Kwasniewski and that's my battery. You have made my DAY! I thought I'd never see it again. Losing it sure made for a tough KTR finish in the dark! I'll PM you to coordinate a return. Thank you so much!

    Jen

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    Hello everyone

    What a day! Congratulations to all, it was such a mess at the begining but it turned out alright I believe, too bad there couldn';t have been a more all together start. I heard rumor of a start up atop Mary';s, and by 11":30 it seemed everyone had already gone? So we went, riding mellow to see if anyone was stopped and forming a start pack, never saw a group stopped but lots of lights heading west. When the fast guys that started at midnight passed me I realized it was a clusterf#$k of a start and I apologize that I ended up starting early, in the end it makes little difference to me as I rode it all, under the weight of a ton of S$%t and it ended up being a great ride, but i was looking forward to meeting you all at the start and getting a better idea of how many there were of us and such, I guess it really was more of a Kokopelli Trail Ride than a race. What will become of this fun little get together? The results of this will of course be skewed a bit as folks started at all times of the night, so perhaps that';s where it should go, less of a ":race": more of a tour? Thanks to those who started the concept and to those who took the heat when the Man caught on, I love the grassroots feel and the good folks that it brings out, Take care Jefe

  68. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by IttyBittyBetty
    Alan,

    I'm Jenifer Kwasniewski and that's my battery. You have made my DAY! I thought I'd never see it again. Losing it sure made for a tough KTR finish in the dark! I'll PM you to coordinate a return. Thank you so much!

    Jen

    Oh sure. How is anyone to know you're THE Kwasniewski who happened to be on the KT this past weekend. There must have been dozens

    Congrats to everyone who rode. Some day...

  69. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by wookieone
    What a day! Congratulations to all, it was such a mess at the begining but it turned out alright I believe, too bad there couldn';t have been a more all together start. I heard rumor of a start up atop Mary';s, and by 11":30 it seemed everyone had already gone? So we went, riding mellow to see if anyone was stopped and forming a start pack, never saw a group stopped but lots of lights heading west. When the fast guys that started at midnight passed me I realized it was a clusterf#$k of a start and I apologize that I ended up starting early, in the end it makes little difference to me as I rode it all, under the weight of a ton of S$%t and it ended up being a great ride, but i was looking forward to meeting you all at the start and getting a better idea of how many there were of us and such, I guess it really was more of a Kokopelli Trail Ride than a race. What will become of this fun little get together? The results of this will of course be skewed a bit as folks started at all times of the night, so perhaps that';s where it should go, less of a ":race": more of a tour? Thanks to those who started the concept and to those who took the heat when the Man caught on, I love the grassroots feel and the good folks that it brings out, Take care Jefe
    Hey Jefe,

    You might have been in the same small group that I was rolling with at the start? Couple singlespeeders on 29r Rigs, a dude on a Cannondale, and another non-racer who was just riding along for the first mile or so? We left the parking lot around 11:30, and were headed to the start, but nobody was really sure where the "top of Mary's" was, and we didn't see any sort of gathering, so several people pretty much concluded that "F*ck it, I guess this *is* the start." and kept riding. The front runners started catching us at about the first looong hike-a-bike.

    We just told the girl at the finish left we the parking lot @ 11:30. I think they adjusted our times accordingly.

    Is there an "official unofficial" results thread somewhere?

    Is this the end of KTR, what with all the BLM hassle? It would really suck for my first KTR to be the last KTR.

    Was enough $$ collected to cover Adam's BLM fine? (I know they had collected about half of it when me and a few others finished, and we chipped in a few more bucks.)

    I have these and many more questions, which I hope will be answered in the coming days.

    Regardless of the confusion, this was definitely an epic, and for me, being pretty new to the endurance racing thing, the hardest thing I've ever done on a bike.

    Hopefully this wasn't the last one...
    Last edited by TrevorInSoCal; 05-21-2007 at 02:25 PM.

  70. #170
    Grizzly
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    To answer some questions....

    "Is this the end of the KTR?"

    As long as people are interested in TTing the KT, people will do so. It might be that individuals decide to do it on a day of their choosing, rather than in a group setting. But I think KT TT's are far, far from being done away with.

    "Was enough $$ collected to cover the fine?"

    Very nearly. It was very generous and very cool to get so much support, so quickly. Thank you all very much. That kind gesture went a long way in helping me preserve the little mojo I had left after the parking lot "ambush". Again, thank you, it really did mean quite a lot.

    And a few post ride thoughts....

    I would like to apologize for any confusion at the start. When finally things calmed down I looked at my watch and it was about 20 minutes to 12. I was still in street clothes and found myself unmotivated to ride. But not one to let the Man bring me down, I suited up quickly and tried to put everything behind me. It only sort of worked. I found myself arguing at different times during my ride with imaginary Government peoples, trying to make our case. I had to remind myself several times that I was on the KT, and that my mind needed to be in the here and now, but that proved difficult. I was grateful for good company in the waning hours, long after the last of my motivation had dried up.

    I finished, but that doesn't mean I wanted to. Had I been able to find a graceful exit I would have. But once I got into Hidden Canyon at the bottom of N. Beaver Mesa, there was only one way home. And that was up.

    The void left from the debacle at the start is quickly being filled by your stories. I am really happy that so many people finished. Many of the names on the list were DNFs last year. Redemption is sweet. I think the high point for me was that everyone I encountered on the trail, from Mary's to Slick Rock had big grins on their faces.

    And that, is what it is all about.
    GrizzlyAdam.net
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    "The only thing better than solitude, is society."

    ~Ed Abbey

  71. #171
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    Money for ticket

    My friends and I took off before the whole BLM thing ended, out of fear that the trail would be blocked or something else would be done to keep us from riding. We'd like to contribute to your ticket fund. I thought you did a great job in a very difficult situation. Please PM me info on how to get you the money.

  72. #172
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    Found Camelbak at Slickrock parking area

    This camelbak was found after the KTR. Any losers?

  73. #173
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    Alan,

    Thanks for the offer. Likewise, I really enjoyed riding with you on some of those difficult miles. Funny thing, on the long drive back to MN I remember our conversation about how one forgets the very difficult times of a race/ride only to come back for more at a later date. I hadn't left CO yet and was already looking forward to doing this ride again next spring.

    Congrats on your finish!!!!

  74. #174
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    This was a great event. My first KTR and I look forward to next year's RIDE! I finished in close to 24 hours and apparantly was the sweeper as I didn't see any more riders after Dewey Bridge... I'm thankful of my peeps that were waiting for me at Slick Rock!

    - Cisco
    (Riding the Bianchi C.u.s.s (Celeste SS) that everyone passed!)

  75. #175
    The Wheel's Turning
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    To whom it may concern!

    Thanks for a great time. It was awesome meeting everyone.
    I thought I would throw a suggestion out there. Take it for what it's worth...It's probably none of my business, but I do have some experience with this type of stuff.
    I'm not sure who it was who got the ticket out there that night (I never had a chance to meet you or even say thanks), but I heard that you were not going to contest the ticket (I'm just imagining the BLM court, whatever that is, in my head with a bunch of stiffs and their fat regs book in front of them. It kind of makes me laugh in a way). I would hesitate doing that only because you might want to pull a permit in the future for something not even related to the KTR. It could be a double edge sword, but there is a question on the permit form that says something like "have you ever been fined or have there ever been any problems with another event before." It would really suck to be denied a permit in the future for something like this. On the other hand, to contest it might draw some unwanted attention to you in the future (the double edge sword I was talking about). Your in a tough spot...In MO it's hard for me to see you being the one responsible for this whole thing. We all had a part in it and should be just as responsible. I can probably say that we all say thanks for "Taking one for the team"

    If you have second thoughts or want to explore it a little further. I would be willing to ask someone I know from the BLM, in another district, his thoughts. It wouldn't take much, and the advice could be helpful. Again, just a thought. You can tell me to go to hell if you want. I just hate seeing you take it in the shorts for something like this. Much respect, TS
    Chance favors those in motion...

  76. #176
    Grizzly
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    Sage,

    Thanks for the advice. I had thought about contesting the ticket, but I really think it will be more trouble than it is worth. There is a question about past violations on the permit, but in reality the chances of me ever applying for one are very small. There is also space to explain what the violation was and why it occurred. I appreciate your thoughts though. I am glad that there is still a lot of interest in seeing the KTR continue on...in some form or another.

    After being able to put a few days worth of thoughts into this fiasco, I think I can sum it all up best by quoting Edward Abbey, when he wrote "that there is a way of being wrong which is also sometimes necessarily right."
    GrizzlyAdam.net
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  77. #177
    bicycleonthebrain
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    a pic from a water hole

    i no that KT has come and gone but i'm still High from the experience. I have more pics to scan from my buddies camera but here is one for now. Great place to filter and shout the breeze






    www.veezeprice.blogspot.com

  78. #178
    bicycleonthebrain
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    Ok... these are the rest of my pics from KTR. Now i can move on.
    http://picasaweb.google.com/veezeman...15577176681554

    Photo's were taken by the Milkman


    www.veezeprice.blogspot.com
    Last edited by vzman; 06-07-2007 at 05:50 AM.

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