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  1. #1
    The Dude Abides
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    And you thought the seat posts were bad...

    I was on my way to Arizona for a bicycle trip when I pulled off my fork to find this. It was my first time taking the fork off since I put it on last spring, so there was no way for me to know this was going on. But sure enough, after I pulled it off I wiped a rag in there and found several steel beads lightly coated in a film. I have to assume they made their way from the top tube to the head tube, wedged themselves between the race and steerer tube and have been grinding away for who knows how long.

    Now I'm not here to rant. I took the bike to my dealer and they are waiting to hear back from Ells. Sounded like this was something they haven't seen before. The gouges are pretty deep. Deep enough (and located in "the" high stress area) to where I don't feel comfortable riding the fork any more. I'd say this is a bit more significant than a few scuff marks on a seat post.



    HSForkFar.jpg

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  2. #2
    Knomer
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    Pink headsets will do that.

  3. #3
    Spanish Marathon Racer
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    I am lloking at the pics but I don´t understand.

    Could you explain?
    "Win gives you glory, continue to your last breath gives yo pride, surrender is not an option"
    "Like a beast freed from its chains, I pedal like If I had to scape from hell. As sweat falls from my face, my phantoms, my fears, are left behind until they are points at the horizon."

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapier
    I am lloking at the pics but I don´t understand.

    Could you explain?

    The two rings you see on the steerer tube are grooves that have been cut into the metal. You can see two matching grooves on the headset race. They don't look like much in the pictures, but each one is probably 0.050" deep, which is a significant stress riser to a part that is already very stressed. I believe they were caused by the same beads that have been marring up everyone's seatposts.
    Last edited by UP Dude; 01-31-2007 at 04:50 AM.

  5. #5
    Spanish Marathon Racer
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    Ok, I am looking at the pics more slowly and I think it´s a problem with the headset.

    What do you think?
    "Win gives you glory, continue to your last breath gives yo pride, surrender is not an option"
    "Like a beast freed from its chains, I pedal like If I had to scape from hell. As sweat falls from my face, my phantoms, my fears, are left behind until they are points at the horizon."

  6. #6
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    So NOW will you foam your tubes, i know you shouldn't have to, but it's your neck if that steerer tube had snapped.

    I think they should take care of you with a new headset and fork uppers. Good luck.
    You can't make a racehorse out of a donkey, but you can make a fast donkey.

  7. #7
    zeb
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    Was the headtube or bottombracket reamed and all metalchips were removed?
    I found some dirt in my Moment frame when i took it apart for bearing overhaul and all of that stuff was not certainly from factory.

  8. #8
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    So, the headset looks toasted, too. I guess now it's been a good idea for me to have swapped forks about 4x

    Good luck and let us know how it goes with Ellsworth. Maybe you'll get one of those new frames in exchange.

  9. #9
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    WOW!! It’s good you found this before something snapped. I take my Moment completely apart every year at least once (it’s apart now for winter rebuild) and never found any beads in mine. No reaming, no foam. Maybe I'll foam it while it's apart just to be safe.

    On another note…what did you ride in AZ?

    Let us know what or if Ells decides to do. Good luck.

  10. #10
    The Dude Abides
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    I think the headset should be fine. The grooves are equally as deep, but they're not as critical as the fork. At least its on the inside where you can't see it, unlike the seat posts. My dealer showed me Ellsworth's recommend process to remove all the beads, which I'll do now that its in the stand for a while. And I know there are other things that can get in there and cause this, but the only thing I found in the head tube were a few of those beads and some grease.

    I visit family in Az (Scottsdale) every year, and I try to ride different stuff. But South Mountain is far and away the best place I've ridden. I will continue to go back there.

  11. #11
    Rolling
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    Yep, you can clearly see the beads there where they rolled out. They got jammed in the right spot and created their own bearing race, lol.

    But as some posts suggest, I don't think this is an emergency :accident waiting to happen" situation. The shaft itself is mostly under tension wheras the forces are put mainly on the bearings. I think with a steel steerer, it would take much deeper grooves and much more torque on the system to actually cause it to snap. Probably a force which would bend or break the fork stanchions themselves in the process.

    However, that said, I wouldn't ride anything I don't feel comfortable about.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by UP Dude
    My dealer showed me Ellsworth's recommend process to remove all the beads, which I'll do now that its in the stand for a while.
    What was this process? What year is your frame? I'm about to build up an '05 Truth (demo frame that was never built) and would like to try to avoid the problem you faced. (I did go read the seatpost foam thread, btw.)

    Thanks in advance!

    Cathy

  13. #13
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    Shouldn't Ellsworth take care of those beads?

    Sounds like a quality control issue.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    Yep, you can clearly see the beads there where they rolled out. They got jammed in the right spot and created their own bearing race, lol.

    But as some posts suggest, I don't think this is an emergency :accident waiting to happen" situation. The shaft itself is mostly under tension wheras the forces are put mainly on the bearings. I think with a steel steerer, it would take much deeper grooves and much more torque on the system to actually cause it to snap. Probably a force which would bend or break the fork stanchions themselves in the process.

    However, that said, I wouldn't ride anything I don't feel comfortable about.


    I don't have the fork with me, so I can only speak out of memory. But I'm like 99% certain the steerer is aluminum. The gouges wouldn't be so deep if it were steel, especially since the headset race is definately aluminum and the gouges there are nearly equal. However, you're right in that the bending forces are significantly reduced from what the steerer sees inside the crown. But you've only spoken of ultimate forces thus far. I'm not as concerned about that as I am fatigue.

    A notch like this will have a much greater tendency to form a crack. Once a crack forms, its all over. The reciprocating stresses will work to propigate the crack (especially in aluminum), and eventually break. And its not like this would all happen within 1/2 mile, the aluminum there is pretty thick. The catch is that it is all concealed inside the head tube, and it is difficult for me to know if and when a crack has formed. Am I going to pull my fork off before every ride to make sure it won't break off? They recommend you check your skewers before every ride to make sure they are tight, but how many people actually do that?

    It is obviously difficult to say if this is a serious problem or its no big deal. But when I first pulled my fork off and saw the gouges, it made me feel unsure. And when I showed the guys at the shop, they all agreed that it would be sketchy to ride. And like you said, in the absense of hard data, it is important to go on comfort or confidence. I have enough background knowledge of this stuff to feel sketched out. I just hope Ellsworth will feel the same way and help me out. It is a weird situation though, since it was the frame that caused damage to the fork and headset. I'm anxious to find out how this one will turn out.

  15. #15
    Rolling
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    Quote Originally Posted by UP Dude
    I just hope Ellsworth will feel the same way and help me out. It is a weird situation though, since it was the frame that caused damage to the fork and headset. I'm anxious to find out how this one will turn out.
    We are all ears on this....and certainly the Turner folks are peeping in....

    Based on the How Dave Turner bends his back over there on details like this, added to that the past criticism of EW on these things, if EW doesn't come though, I will be, among many, hugely shocked.

    This is an opportunity for Ellsworth to step up and get a big kudos by YOU. I imagine based on my experience it will happen and you will be taken care of....least I hope so.

    ......................

  16. #16
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    I hope they take care of that for you, or your out a huge chunk of change to replace the fork and the headset.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you'll crash. ~Julie Furtado

  17. #17
    The Dude Abides
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    This is an opportunity for Ellsworth to step up and get a big kudos by YOU. I imagine based on my experience it will happen and you will be taken care of....least I hope so.

    ......................

    I've been Ells loyal for almost 5 years now, and even when everyone was really giving them a hard time about customer service, I received some amazing help from them. Between building top notch bikes and supplying top notch service, I've supported and promoted them on everything. I've had two incidents that I needed help from them on, and they did a great job. And compared to those replacements, this is quite a bit cheaper. All I need are new fork uppers and maybe a headset. No one at the shop could say for sure if you can get just uppers (stanchions, crown, steerer) from Fox. It would really suck if I had to buy a whole new fork. Again, time will tell.

  18. #18
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    Could someone please explain what a bead is? Are you talking about a weld bead?

    Aside from that, I don't understand how this is entirely Ellsworth's fault or even their fault at all. If there are gouges that are .050 deep on the steerer and equally as deep on the headset, there had to be .100 of interference. Unless things changed after assembly, it had to be present and I'd think detectable at that time. I'd say it is the shops fault for not inspecting the parts before or during assembly. If it did change, maybe it wasn't assembled properly to begin with. Also, isn't this something you'd feel? There had to be some grinding???

    I'm not bashing you or anyone, just trying to understand the problem. I have an '04 Truth and have not had any problems with it. I also have a new Enlightenment on order. If there is something that I need to look for when it arrives, I want to understand.

  19. #19
    Silver bullet
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    Personally I would be concerned about the fork tube. We could all speculate on what the different forces may do and if cracking would be a concern. If it were me I would call Fox (judging from the pics it looks like a Fox) and give them the details and see what they say. I would guess they do some type of stress anylisis on their components. It may just be an area that isn't of any concern. These tubes (if it's a Fox) are aluminum so there may not be much allowance for this kind of damage.

    I too would like to know what Ellsworth recommended to clean the blast beads out of the frame.

  20. #20
    Rolling
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLP2002FH
    Could someone please explain what a bead is? Are you talking about a weld bead?

    Aside from that, I don't understand how this is entirely Ellsworth's fault or even their fault at all. If there are gouges that are .050 deep on the steerer and equally as deep on the headset, there had to be .100 of interference. Unless things changed after assembly, it had to be present and I'd think detectable at that time. I'd say it is the shops fault for not inspecting the parts before or during assembly. If it did change, maybe it wasn't assembled properly to begin with. Also, isn't this something you'd feel? There had to be some grinding???

    I'm not bashing you or anyone, just trying to understand the problem. I have an '04 Truth and have not had any problems with it. I also have a new Enlightenment on order. If there is something that I need to look for when it arrives, I want to understand.
    People are referring to the shot peening balls that are used to texture the frame. In the past there have been instances of the balls getting trapped in the voids of the tubes, in particular the seat tube and eventually making an appearance. As alluded to, the most common is the seat post and when the balls appear, they scratch up the post when the user inserts the post.

    It's also been a problem with the BB shell and there was even a warning to make sure the threads were clean before installing a BB.

    Thus as you can see, those balls can be appear in the head tube as well.

  21. #21
    Time is not a road.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLP2002FH
    I'm not bashing you or anyone, just trying to understand the problem. I have an '04 Truth and have not had any problems with it. I also have a new Enlightenment on order. If there is something that I need to look for when it arrives, I want to understand.
    Your Enlightenment should be fine since instead of metallic shot peening they use plastic now which is much softer.

  22. #22
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    UP Dude- That sucks!
    I wouldn't ride that fork- over the years, I can recall at least three instances of seeing seatposts snap off exactly where people had lightly scratched a mark for where they lowered the post to when descending. Tolerances are tight on these products and I would not want to be the test pilot on that.
    Mike

  23. #23
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    I understand now. That does sound a little scary since it can seeming come from nowhere. I will keep an eye on my truth.

    As far as asking the fork manufacturer, I'd put money on the response being to throw it away. No company is going to take that liability.

    Good luck to you UP Dude!

  24. #24
    Rolling
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    Quote Originally Posted by UP Dude
    The two rings you see on the steerer tube are grooves that have been cut into the metal. You can see two matching grooves on the headset race. They don't look like much in the pictures, but each one is probably 0.050" deep, which is a significant stress riser to a part that is already very stressed. I believe they were caused by the same beads that have been marring up everyone's seatposts.

    BTW,

    0.050" or 0.005"? Cuz looking at the pix, it looks like it just might catch a fingernail but it's not that deep 0.050" is 13 sheets of paper thick, which is substantial. From the photos, it doesn't look near that much.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    BTW,

    0.050" or 0.005"? Cuz looking at the pix, it looks like it just might catch a fingernail but it's not that deep 0.050" is 13 sheets of paper thick, which is substantial. From the photos, it doesn't look near that much.

    Yeah, my bad, its not 0.050". The eyes are a poor measurement device. It's probably more like 0.010". Of the beads that I pulled out of there, the largest one was probably on the order of 0.025" to 0.030" in diameter.

  26. #26
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    Fox definitely sells the steerer and crown seperately. So worst case scenario you'll only be out $200 or so. Good luck.

  27. #27
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    And the conclusion.....

    It's been about three weeks now since contact was first made to Ellsworth concerning my fork/headset ordeal. And while the past two times I've had warranty claims with them, they were extrodinarily helpful, its seems this time I'm getting the cold shoulder. But, like Meat Loaf said, "two out of three ain't bad."

    So the word on the street is that Fox does sell replacement uppers, which is great. $200 is much better than $1100. And while I'm bummed out, I certainly hope this doesn't rekindle the Ellsworth customer service flames from months back. If I were in their shoes, I would be somewhat hesitant too. This has been a known problem for some time now, and it would be expected that people take the appropriate procautions. I did everything I could, I certainly didn't want my seatpost marred up. They do lay out their recommended process to eliminate the balls, however we didn't receive that until after the fact.

    I guess the only thing that bugs me is that I was basically brushed off. My shop called the first time, to which the response was "this is pretty unusual, we'll have to talk to Tony about it." So we waited. Never head back, so called again. They didn't remember the first call, and just said the same thing the second call. It's been a week since the second call, and no response. I have to assume one of three things: 1) they really haven't forgotten and they're just really busy, 2) They forgot, 3) they'd like it if I left them alone. If it is number 3, just a call to say "Sorry, we just can't cover that given the circumstances" would have been acceptable.

    So am I a little bummed, yeah. Am I shopping for a new frame, no. I still love my bike and I can't find another that could replace it. I guess I just don't have the same admiration for the organization as a whole. But before long I'll ride again, and nothing else will matter. As always....

    The Dude Abides.

  28. #28
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    Okay - I just noticed this post and I want to try and help clear some things up.

    Those grooves were not cut by shot peen balls, but more likely a piece of welld slag in the headtube. Although rare, I have seen it upon occaison. A "chunk" of slag sticks out just enough to make contact with the steerer tube (under load) and the carvings made by this contact are consistent with the shot peen balls (upon further inspection, you'll find the material found all over your fork and lower bearing race is aluminum and not steel - your Fox 36 has an aluminum steerer). The slag is most likely quite sharp and easily scores your steerer (despite them both being made of aluminum). Also, loose balls migrate and cause less organized damage.

    I have seen this in some Id frames...

    Yes, this (in my opinion) is a warranty issue.

    Dude, if you get no love from your IBD/Ellsworth, call me and I'll see if I can help.

    The dude abides...

    - Mondo
    Sold the Id; riding the Rogue, saving for an Evolve...I ride, I know.

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  29. #29
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    I appreciate your input Mondo. I had not considered weld as a cause. It is so easy to point to the shot since it is so common, and I found several in the head tube after removing the fork. However, I do have a question.

    I can definately understand that a piece of slag like that would be significantly sharp, and capable of more gouging than a round ball. I can also understand that edgier shapes will have less capability of moving, thus allowing it to stay put and gouge away. What I don't see is how the slag initially becomes mobile. How does a piece of weld come off of the frame and make its way between the steerer and race?

    I appreciate your assistance to help me. My LBS is run by close friends of mine, so I know they are doing what they can to help. I don't know if manufacturers weigh the importance of dealers, but I am the only person to purchase a frame here, and they became a dealer just to do so. I know you work at the Path, which is clearly a significant Ellsworth establishment. But I guess I'm not really out to build backing and win my case. I legitimately asked for help, and I didn't get it. I don't want to be that guy that just keeps pestering until he gets what he wants. I'll just take this for what it is.

    But regardless of money or responsibilty, it would be satisfying to know why this happened.

  30. #30
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    Dude,

    Point taken, and you are correct; a migrating piece of slag is not very probable. I was under the impression that the scoring was just above the race; my misunderstanding.

    I wasn't trying to imply that your LBS wasn't trying to take care of you; I'm sure they are a great shop. I was only offering my assistance to try to help you as well.

    Best of luck and if I can help, let me know.

    Thanks,
    Mondo
    Sold the Id; riding the Rogue, saving for an Evolve...I ride, I know.

    mondo@thepathbikeshop.com

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    And to think so many here think I am harsh. This is the stuff E serves up and expects the rider to deal with. Not good.

    Simple quality control; IE: paying a guy to wash out all frames with a hose, very easy to do, could of prevented this. But not only is the headset screwed (would you, or anyone, pay for a headset that has "slight reaming marks"). At least in the past, when the frames were farmed out, E could blame someone. Now, it is only themselves.

    I would NOT ride a frame or fork that had such damage. Is your neck (literally) worth it? IF the fork folded up, would you be so willing to forgive E knowing it was their fault?

    At least with painted frames, this is not an issue. Funny, with most painted frames, you do not see beadblasting; is it really worth it or only an E fad. IF so, then obviously with this example, it is not worth it.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackfly
    And to think so many here think I am harsh. This is the stuff E serves up and expects the rider to deal with. Not good.

    Simple quality control; IE: paying a guy to wash out all frames with a hose, very easy to do, could of prevented this. But not only is the headset screwed (would you, or anyone, pay for a headset that has "slight reaming marks"). At least in the past, when the frames were farmed out, E could blame someone. Now, it is only themselves.

    I would NOT ride a frame or fork that had such damage. Is your neck (literally) worth it? IF the fork folded up, would you be so willing to forgive E knowing it was their fault?

    At least with painted frames, this is not an issue. Funny, with most painted frames, you do not see beadblasting; is it really worth it or only an E fad. IF so, then obviously with this example, it is not worth it.
    What took you so long to chime in?
    Attached Images Attached Images

  33. #33
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    I normally refrain from replies to your posts, but since this is my thread and you posted questions to me, I feel I should reply this time.


    Quote Originally Posted by blackfly
    Simple quality control; IE: paying a guy to wash out all frames with a hose, very easy to do, could of prevented this. But not only is the headset screwed (would you, or anyone, pay for a headset that has "slight reaming marks"). At least in the past, when the frames were farmed out, E could blame someone. Now, it is only themselves.
    They had a plan in place to fix it. Tony wrote up a rather lengthy memo that explains what the problem is, why it happens, and how to prevent it prior to bike assembly. I assume this memo was sent to all their dealers. My LBS is not really an Ellsworth dealer. Technically they are, but they only became one to sell me a frame. Since they never meant to be a full blown dealer, I'm guessing all of the additional hocus pocus that goes along with dealer registration was overlooked. So I feel its probably a case of miscommunication, not neglegence.

    And they haven't shot peened any of the frames manufactured in house, so the problem can probably be linked back to a supplier.


    Quote Originally Posted by blackfly
    I would NOT ride a frame or fork that had such damage. Is your neck (literally) worth it? IF the fork folded up, would you be so willing to forgive E knowing it was their fault?
    Yes, my neck is worth it, which is why I'm not riding the fork anymore until I get a new steerer/upper assembly (luckily its winter). However the frame is not damaged at all, only the fork and headset.

    Would I be so willing to forgive them if the fork broke? A very legitimate question, but I think the answer has to be yes. Mistakes happen and as long as they were sorry, I would not be able to hold a grudge. In fact, its the apologetic response I'm mostly interested in. Even in this case, we were mostly ignored, which bothers me more than the fork damage. Even if they couldn't help me, at least an apology and an explaination would be better than ignorance.


    Quote Originally Posted by blackfly
    At least with painted frames, this is not an issue. Funny, with most painted frames, you do not see beadblasting; is it really worth it or only an E fad. IF so, then obviously with this example, it is not worth it.
    Shot peening can do alot to aleviate stress risers in metal. It's ceratinly not a bad idea. If you remove the bad batch of Moments and do the math on how many shot peened frames were sold vs. number of frames with issues, I think the ratio would be acceptable. Obviously, the issues they've had with the Moment are pretty sucky and significant enough to reconsider using the process (not to mention its one less step and one less cost to worry about).


    Quote Originally Posted by blackfly
    And to think so many here think I am harsh. This is the stuff E serves up and expects the rider to deal with. Not good.

    I still think you're harsh. Almost every post you make gives me the impression that you can accept no less than perfection. Any mistake is unforgivable and the offender probably meant to do it. Why on earth would anyone want to sell a defective product? I just cannot see where the benifit would be, and I don't think they are exempt from traditional business reasoning. Sometimes people make it out to sound like Tony Ellsworth is the evil bicycle master who has everyone fooled (except for the few wise ones who tarnish his name) with his fancy metals and patents. Ellsworth plays by the same Earthly rules as Trek, Kona or Turner.

    Certaintly, I can't defend them wholly since I still feel wronged, but I'm not going to sing their damnations from the hilltops. Like I said, mistakes happen. It is not worth my time or stress to dwell on it and build a grudge. I have more constructive things to do. Like ride my bike, which I'm going to do right now.

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  34. #34
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    I went through the same crap

    I had a moment the bead blast balls cut into my steerer and my headset...I contacted ellsworth and they did the same thing,... said nothing was wrong and just ride and I should have taken out the bead blast balls.... yea like its my fault that ellsworth(less) can't take care of the problem themselves when they are aware of the problem when they ship the frames out...

    I first was given a new seat post for the bead blast balls scratching up my post. then when I found out my steerer and headset cup were gouged... they asked me send the frame and fork back to inspect it.. the warranty guy buffed out the gouges and said it was o.k. to ride.. and gave me some socks...what a nice gesture dont you think?

    I thought this was bull crap.. and so i contacted answer about the fork and they said that the gouges were a safety issue...so i had answer call ellsworth and talk to them... they told them but they still didn't do anything about the frame or fork. answer was cool and actually sent me the fork with a brand new steerer.....

    I finally got mad and wrote a letter to the man himself tony ellsworth.... after about a week a warranty rep calls and says that they are going to replace the front triangle. I get the front triangle back after 3 months and i still have to call them about the rear linkage and shock and bolts.... they forgot to send the my old stuff back with the new triangle ....pure genuises..... well after about 4 months i finally got a brand new framel... I even called tony ellsworth and talk to him about my poblem... he just said remember you are riding the best bike in the world..... but the customer service is the worst...

    let me know and I will help you get a new frame...because this is ******** how they handle the issue bucause they could be sued for it being a safety issue...just ask fox and it says in the manual if there are any scratches that you shouldn't ride your fork

  35. #35
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    from an outsiders viewpoint

    Ellsworth is at fault. There is no doubt that they should resolve the issue. If your LBS sold you one bike, they had to become an Ells dealer - and therefor should have had the heads up on this.
    Good luck, and glad you noticed it before something catastrophic happened.

  36. #36
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    Does the manual show you how to bend over correctly?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

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    My friend. You forget that I rode a Dare long before E was ever know on the Shore. I loved the Shot Peened finish and loved my Dares. I am pissed because I am seeing a company I once cared about go to ****. Not through the worst designs, mind you, but by decisions based on finance alone, not the ride.

    My 2001 Dare was once one of my favorite bikes. But time and change is inevitable. Foes kept up, Ellsworth did not. And to now see how Ellsworth has turned out. And you ACTUALLY forgive headset reaming due to excess ball bearings from finishing. That is BS. Should never happen, especially considering this is a high end frame. Mistakes is something a low end maker has, not a "comitted" frame maker has.

    Call me harsh all you want, but from the Shore, I call it as I see it and I see Ellsworth no more.

    What more can I say.

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    Unfortunate to hear such unfavorable customer service from Ellsworth. His frames are $$$$$. For that kind of cash I would think he would back his product a little better. His customer service/warranty is not so great.

    I had a '99 Truth, loved it. Cracked it. He replaced the front triangle, but charged me $700 for the new rear triangle, since he was out of the old ones. Oh well.

    Sold that and got and Id. Cracked a few times. He replaced at no cost

    Sold the Id. Building an Intense 6.6. Gonna try a different bike builder and see how that works.

    I will no longer buy Ellsworth. He makes some nice bikes, but I want something I can count on when I'm on vacation riding my bike. Not worry about it breaking.

    Good luck!

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by UP Dude
    My dealer showed me Ellsworth's recommend process to remove all the beads, which I'll do now that its in the stand for a while.
    a little too late, no?? If it's recommended, then why did the dealer fail to do it when you purchased the frame perhaps they should be the ones covering the new steer tube
    I Ride, I Know

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by TT.
    a little too late, no?? If it's recommended, then why did the dealer fail to do it when you purchased the frame perhaps they should be the ones covering the new steer tube

    They didn't receive the document until they called to make the claim. It was a "for future reference" thing. I bought the frame and fork from them (through Ells). I assembled the bike at home, and did everything I could with the knowledge I had to prevent the problem. If we had that document earlier, we would have done things differently.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by UP Dude
    They didn't receive the document until they called to make the claim. It was a "for future reference" thing. I bought the frame and fork from them (through Ells). I assembled the bike at home, and did everything I could with the knowledge I had to prevent the problem. If we had that document earlier, we would have done things differently.
    I don't see the problem with Ellsworth getting you a new fork or fork assembly. They claim to be OEM with Fox, so they should be getting things wholesale. The frame is to be free of manufacturer defects for a period of two years. This is a defect.

    I have to say, after a couple of incidents that have shown up on the boards recently, I'm definitely NOT buying another frame from them.

  42. #42
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    We could all pretend BlackFly isn't a turner troll but why bother. It did take awfully long for some body to say I told you so.

    Weren't some Turners bead blasted?

    Any word from E yet?
    Off season? What off season?

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    I am NOT a Turner fan. You see only a limited number of Turners on the Shore and here is the reason why: (consider that my riding buddy and I both carefully considered the DHR as our bike but for the aformentioned reasons)

    1: the DHR used needle bearings that were not made to handle the Shores' rain and muck. Worse, they are hard to replace and are even harder to source. Turner only, and they have large markups for such items that simple ball bearings are easy to source and replace.

    2: rear end issues. With 8 inches of travel, the rear end was stiff, to be sure, but had no floating brake, as the fly or any Foes so equipped. Apply the brake on a Turner DHR and bounce up and down and do it without the brake and you clearly understand.

    3: Limited carriance; IE: no one here is even a remotely connected dealer. There are a few Foes dealers, no Ellsworth dealers anymore, but Turner is like E in this regard: with no support, what support can one expect.

    I laugh at the posts such as this that suggest I have not done my homework. You suggest I am some ranting idiot from the Shore who has a real beef with Ellsworth with no reason. But I have every reason in the book. I HAD 2 Dares, and loved them both, only to see the company get rid of the lovely Garnet colour for anodizing it had and the Dare itself, with no replacement or commitment to real freeriding. I ask all current Dare owners: how do you feel about the longevity of your Dare ownership? Will there be parts in the future? How about front ends? The rear end is currently used by the Rogue, yes, but the front end, the Dare's hallmark, is no more. That is where the stiffness and strength came from. But no more.

    I am no Turner Troll. No Troll for that matter. But having been there and done that, and seen how Ellsworth rose and fell on the Shore, I am only pointing out my own experience and what I have seen. Ask Dan at OnTopBikes.com. It was once the home Ellsworth shop. Ask him what he thinks. Tells you all I know.

    Normally, I would not give the effort to such a reply, but considering most do not understand where I am coming from I thought some correcting was in order.

    Where ever did I say Turner was good?

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackfly
    I am NOT a Turner fan. You see only a limited number of Turners on the Shore and here is the reason why: (consider that my riding buddy and I both carefully considered the DHR as our bike but for the aformentioned reasons)

    1: the DHR used needle bearings that were not made to handle the Shores' rain and muck. Worse, they are hard to replace and are even harder to source. Turner only, and they have large markups for such items that simple ball bearings are easy to source and replace.

    2: rear end issues. With 8 inches of travel, the rear end was stiff, to be sure, but had no floating brake, as the fly or any Foes so equipped. Apply the brake on a Turner DHR and bounce up and down and do it without the brake and you clearly understand.

    3: Limited carriance; IE: no one here is even a remotely connected dealer. There are a few Foes dealers, no Ellsworth dealers anymore, but Turner is like E in this regard: with no support, what support can one expect.

    I laugh at the posts such as this that suggest I have not done my homework. You suggest I am some ranting idiot from the Shore who has a real beef with Ellsworth with no reason. But I have every reason in the book. I HAD 2 Dares, and loved them both, only to see the company get rid of the lovely Garnet colour for anodizing it had and the Dare itself, with no replacement or commitment to real freeriding. I ask all current Dare owners: how do you feel about the longevity of your Dare ownership? Will there be parts in the future? How about front ends? The rear end is currently used by the Rogue, yes, but the front end, the Dare's hallmark, is no more. That is where the stiffness and strength came from. But no more.

    I am no Turner Troll. No Troll for that matter. But having been there and done that, and seen how Ellsworth rose and fell on the Shore, I am only pointing out my own experience and what I have seen. Ask Dan at OnTopBikes.com. It was once the home Ellsworth shop. Ask him what he thinks. Tells you all I know.

    Normally, I would not give the effort to such a reply, but considering most do not understand where I am coming from I thought some correcting was in order.

    Where ever did I say Turner was good?
    Have to eat some humble pie here, but have to agree with blackfly, he has never stated he was a Turner man................. Here is a Dare doing is thing, go John Jesme...
    Attached Images Attached Images
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  45. #45
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    Ok, I may have confused blackfly's "boohoo E doesn't cater to my geographical location" rants with those of a more notorious turner troll. Sorry.
    Off season? What off season?

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by chad1433
    I have to say, after a couple of incidents that have shown up on the boards recently, I'm definitely NOT buying another frame from them.
    What?This is getting serious when true E-riders are making decision like this.Wonder if it is easier to get new customers than keeping "loyal" Ellsworth riders on trail and be proud of their bikes and recommending Tony`s productline and CS.What is Ellsworthian way of making business?Future will tell.I went already to Nicolai and after reading this topic i am going to get rid of Moment as soon as so called warranty expires.However i will keep DIY repaired ID as commuting bike...Take it easy you never know what a new day brings.

  47. #47
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    UP Dude, I think you're being too nice here.

    This situation reeks of the old customer service of the Broken 2001 Truth era, and if Ellsworth steps up and fixes your problem for you it could go a long way in improving their reputation. Do it for them, if not for yourself. It sounds like they need a wake up call.

    They had been appearing to improve, but by not taking care of you, a very loyal customer, it looks like they're backsliding again. For them to ever get a good CS reputation, they will need to work extra hard to provide consistently superior service from now on.
    {Principal Skinner} Hmm. Whoever did this is in very deep trouble.
    {Martin} And a sloppy speller too. The preferred spelling of 'wiener' is w - i - e - n - e - r, although 'e - i' is an acceptable ethnic variant.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob the Wheelbuilder
    UP Dude, I think you're being too nice here.

    This situation reeks of the old customer service of the Broken 2001 Truth era, and if Ellsworth steps up and fixes your problem for you it could go a long way in improving their reputation. Do it for them, if not for yourself. It sounds like they need a wake up call.

    They had been appearing to improve, but by not taking care of you, a very loyal customer, it looks like they're backsliding again. For them to ever get a good CS reputation, they will need to work extra hard to provide consistently superior service from now on.


    Thanks for the kick in the pants Bob. All this negative press on Ellsworth was eating me up, I felt pretty bad about it. So, I got some help and am now in touch with Aimee at Ells. Shes super nice, and a fellow Michigander (a troll, but I'll forgive her since she's helping me )

    I'm not at home now, so I can't take care of business until this weekend. But I'll definately let ya'll know how it goes. Sounds like I'm in good hands.

  49. #49
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    Yeah, Aimee is the bomb. In fact, all the Ellsworth staff members rock...

    Glad to hear things are going to get handled -

    - Mondo
    Sold the Id; riding the Rogue, saving for an Evolve...I ride, I know.

    mondo@thepathbikeshop.com

    http://www.thepathbikeshop.com

  50. #50
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    What a disgrace.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Id Rider
    Yeah, Aimee is the bomb. In fact, all the Ellsworth staff members rock...

    Glad to hear things are going to get handled -

    - Mondo
    Up Dude, if Aimee can't help you out I am positive Mondo can. I've gotten great service from Ells through him.
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  52. #52
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    I never had a CS problem with Ellsworth. When my 2000 Dare showed up bent (from the jig) I simply asked for a new one. I got it and it was dead arrow straight. I heard that the run I had was recalled, re-heat treated and called a special run of black anodized 2000 Dares. The black was the only thing covering up the original colour.

    This happens to any maker, but to be deceitful and cover it up, and let others know about it, is not good. Once a frame is heat treated, to do it again is tampering with the frame.

    But I see I am not the only one with issues. I still get invites to all E functions. Maybe I should show up with my invite with my Foes.

  53. #53
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    Kind of tells you why no one one the Shore has Ellsworth as a carried frame.

    Had it here and it did not cut it. People lose faith, and stop buying.

    End of story.

  54. #54
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    Your postcript is so wise. I wish I could plaster my wall with it. So deep.

    Your point?

    If you think that a manufacturer had the deal with the prime location and lost it ask any snowboard or ski maker if Whistler matters. If they can make it there they can make it anywhere.

    But E is in the same boat and had it and dropped it. Do not shoot me for pointing out not only the obvious but the facts. They are all there in history and fact.

    You forget I do not rag on E for this but lament. I am saddened to see what was all going so right end up being so wrong.

    But as Tony says it, Only the ride Matters.

    I agree wholeheartedly.

  55. #55
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    I think asking if Whistler matters while forgetting/ignoring the alps is like saying the shore defines all while forgetting the Rockies, Appalachians, Alps and rest of the planet.

    You say "end of story" like being shunned on the shore means anything to the market but even the downhillers and freeriders here don't give a damn what the mud jockies at sea level ride. E is growing quickly here so clearly they're not doing everything wrong. Maybe lacking the garnet color isn't a deal breaker.
    Off season? What off season?

  56. #56
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    The only thing that matters is what the guys on "The Shore" thinks. All of the other places to ride in the world does not compare to what "The Shore" has to offer. I'm sure that an Ellsworth could not handel "The Shore". So once again don't forget "The Shore" is the only place worth riding your bike as long as it is not an Ellsworth because Ellsworth can't handle "The Shore" I wish I was good enough to ride "The Shore" but I only have an Ellsworth. Oh by the way I love my Ellsworth and the customer service that I have recieved from the crew.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekSux
    The only thing that matters is what the guys on "The Shore" thinks. All of the other places to ride in the world does not compare to what "The Shore" has to offer. I'm sure that an Ellsworth could not handel "The Shore". So once again don't forget "The Shore" is the only place worth riding your bike as long as it is not an Ellsworth because Ellsworth can't handle "The Shore" I wish I was good enough to ride "The Shore" but I only have an Ellsworth. Oh by the way I love my Ellsworth and the customer service that I have recieved from the crew.
    And don't forgot the bit of 'The Shore' where blackfly rides is a tiny drop in the ocean. I ride in the Alps where lots of people rides Rogue's etc on hardcore 'Shore' terrain to match anywhere in the world.

    But obviously it's not the bit of 'Shore' that blackfly rides - so it counts for nothing.
    "but I do not see anything in the world of suspension methods that is superior to the 4 Bar.

    Dave Turner


  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Does the manual show you how to bend over correctly?
    Nah, it tells you how to lick DT butt.
    "but I do not see anything in the world of suspension methods that is superior to the 4 Bar.

    Dave Turner


  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackfly
    but from the Shore, I call it as I see it and I see Ellsworth no more.

    What more can I say.

    We've all just wet ourselves with laughter here!
    "but I do not see anything in the world of suspension methods that is superior to the 4 Bar.

    Dave Turner


  60. #60
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    But you do not get to laugh in a place that is suppposed to test your bike in a way it was meant to.

    And if you read the fine print, Ellsworth can actually void your warranty for even riding here. Read between the lines. TE surely doesn't.

    Take all you want out of my posts but they are facts. Fact: Ellsworth was an obscure brand, like many, in 1999. My buddy bought a Dare. Loved it.

    Fact: I bought a 2000 Dare and loved it. At this time, Ellsworth was gaining noteriety as a great frame on the Shore. More looked into the frame and the bike.

    Fact: Ellsworth was carried by OnTop on the 2000/2001 run and was supported by Dangerous Dan and his Freeride troop. Bike was awesome. Many bought into TE mantra and bought Jokers and his Warranty (at the time, still lifetime not knowing the implications of what this meant for the Shore, but hey, he does not live here so how could he know).

    Fact: many Jokers broke. Many owners warrantied many times. OnTop stopped carrying Ellsworth. The frame was too much of a headache and cost too much in the long run.

    Fact: Ellsworth is no longer a prominent Shore frame. Knolly, Banshee, Norco and Brodie is what you see. All companies commited to their products and standing behind them for their INTENDED use.

    As soon as it got tought, Ellsworth backed out. Could not handle the fire.

    You may be laughing at me, but believe me, there are many, like I, who laugh at fireroad decending SoCal riders that think they know it all and know nothing who post here thinking they are the final authority on frames and riding. Until you come here, your posts are as just as laughable as where you ride.

    Do you think riding and living in Whister gives a boarder or skiier any more credibility? You bet. Same with riding.

    Enjoy whatever trail your E rides on, but it will never enjoy itself the way I know it could of had.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackfly
    But you do not get to laugh in a place that is suppposed to test your bike in a way it was meant to.

    And if you read the fine print, Ellsworth can actually void your warranty for even riding here. Read between the lines. TE surely doesn't.

    Take all you want out of my posts but they are facts. Fact: Ellsworth was an obscure brand, like many, in 1999. My buddy bought a Dare. Loved it.

    Fact: I bought a 2000 Dare and loved it. At this time, Ellsworth was gaining noteriety as a great frame on the Shore. More looked into the frame and the bike.

    Fact: Ellsworth was carried by OnTop on the 2000/2001 run and was supported by Dangerous Dan and his Freeride troop. Bike was awesome. Many bought into TE mantra and bought Jokers and his Warranty (at the time, still lifetime not knowing the implications of what this meant for the Shore, but hey, he does not live here so how could he know).

    Fact: many Jokers broke. Many owners warrantied many times. OnTop stopped carrying Ellsworth. The frame was too much of a headache and cost too much in the long run.

    Fact: Ellsworth is no longer a prominent Shore frame. Knolly, Banshee, Norco and Brodie is what you see. All companies commited to their products and standing behind them for their INTENDED use.

    As soon as it got tought, Ellsworth backed out. Could not handle the fire.

    You may be laughing at me, but believe me, there are many, like I, who laugh at fireroad decending SoCal riders that think they know it all and know nothing who post here thinking they are the final authority on frames and riding. Until you come here, your posts are as just as laughable as where you ride.

    Do you think riding and living in Whister gives a boarder or skiier any more credibility? You bet. Same with riding.

    Enjoy whatever trail your E rides on, but it will never enjoy itself the way I know it could of had.
    lmfao, yeah, all I ride is fire roads. I watch my wang get smaller and wish I had lots of bridges to ride on. You and those that ride the shore are my heroes. Gods among men, the lot of you. (note sarcasm)
    Off season? What off season?

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackfly
    Ellsworth is no longer a prominent Shore frame.
    So let me get this right, because there are no Ells in your (drop in the ocean) bit of shore, that means nowhere else in the world? Plenty of Ells on the Shore that I ride. Obviously not real 'Shore' because it's not your 'Shore'

    Do carry on though, you are providing us with great entertainment
    "but I do not see anything in the world of suspension methods that is superior to the 4 Bar.

    Dave Turner


  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackfly
    I, who laugh at fireroad decending SoCal riders that think they know it all and know nothing who post here thinking they are the final authority on frames and riding. Until you come here, your posts are as just as laughable as where you ride.

    Do you think riding and living in Whister gives a boarder or skiier any more credibility? You bet. Same with riding.

    Enjoy whatever trail your E rides on, but it will never enjoy itself the way I know it could of had.
    So you see a few SoCal and then make a sweeping statement about people you don't know?
    I spend half the year in the Swiss, French and Italian Alps, some of the most hardcore riding in the world, do I go on about it and try big myself about the 'shore' all the time?

    I've seen guys on Foes who are laughable riders going down fireroads too - perhaps that gives me the right to lable a bunch of people I know jack about.
    "but I do not see anything in the world of suspension methods that is superior to the 4 Bar.

    Dave Turner


  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zakster
    So let me get this right, because there are no Ells in your (drop in the ocean) bit of shore, that means nowhere else in the world? Plenty of Ells on the Shore that I ride. Obviously not real 'Shore' because it's not your 'Shore'

    Do carry on though, you are providing us with great entertainment
    i think i wanna suck on blackfly's toes right about now.

  65. #65
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    I had problems with my moment too. I ruined one frame's bb completely, paid 600 for a new triangle and recently tore up these threads. Ellsworth was very sympathetic and offered to fix it. I didn't want the hassels of dissassembly/ shipping so I declined. I'm going to have the lbs chase the threads so I can sell it. With the proceeds I'm gonna buy a penny farthing!

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackfly
    But you do not get to laugh in a place that is suppposed to test your bike in a way it was meant to.

    And if you read the fine print, Ellsworth can actually void your warranty for even riding here. Read between the lines. TE surely doesn't.

    Take all you want out of my posts but they are facts. Fact: Ellsworth was an obscure brand, like many, in 1999. My buddy bought a Dare. Loved it.

    Fact: I bought a 2000 Dare and loved it. At this time, Ellsworth was gaining noteriety as a great frame on the Shore. More looked into the frame and the bike.

    Fact: Ellsworth was carried by OnTop on the 2000/2001 run and was supported by Dangerous Dan and his Freeride troop. Bike was awesome. Many bought into TE mantra and bought Jokers and his Warranty (at the time, still lifetime not knowing the implications of what this meant for the Shore, but hey, he does not live here so how could he know).

    Fact: many Jokers broke. Many owners warrantied many times. OnTop stopped carrying Ellsworth. The frame was too much of a headache and cost too much in the long run.

    Fact: Ellsworth is no longer a prominent Shore frame. Knolly, Banshee, Norco and Brodie is what you see. All companies commited to their products and standing behind them for their INTENDED use.

    As soon as it got tought, Ellsworth backed out. Could not handle the fire.

    You may be laughing at me, but believe me, there are many, like I, who laugh at fireroad decending SoCal riders that think they know it all and know nothing who post here thinking they are the final authority on frames and riding. Until you come here, your posts are as just as laughable as where you ride.

    Do you think riding and living in Whister gives a boarder or skiier any more credibility? You bet. Same with riding.

    Enjoy whatever trail your E rides on, but it will never enjoy itself the way I know it could of had.

    So Ellsworth went a different direction- big deal. There are no Foes dealers here so does that mean they can't hack it here? Get a grip. If a girl turns you down because she wants someone different do you stalk her? Move on, ride your Foes, quit stalking.

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    anger

    I was REAL pissed when I discovered more swarf in my current moment bb and couldn't clean it out well enough. It did suck and I've decided to get rid of the frame, but I can't complain about the very god cust service. I just wish I knew about the balls disclaimer sooner. I've never had ANY warranty issues on any bike. Would I consider getting another EW? I suppose so, I wouldn't steer people away from them either. They DO ride quite fanfreakintastically. **** happens I guess. Life's too short. Move on. I still have another ew which I'll hang onto, confident that I'll never break it. I find it rather interesting that this co seems somewhat polarizing: many people seem to hate the brand. I don't get it.... happy trails

  68. #68
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    it is sad to see that when a company puts frame out on the market for2000.00 that they are too busy to take the extra ten minutes it takes to make sure there is not any crap in the frame that can cause damage to the other expensive parts . and if they are this busy pumping out frames to take care on every frame these frames should be in the 1000.00
    price range.
    people buy ells because they are suppost to be hand made of the highest quaility,from reading ells threads the last couple of years it would seem that they might want to move production to tiawan so they can have higher production and more profit ,this seems to be the direction they are trying to acheive.

    sorry if this upsets anyone but there a lot of handmade bicycles on the market that the companys will stand behind and are totally concerned when something happens to one of there frames and will take action in a timely manner

  69. #69
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    i gotta agree with maverick. I definately don't look at the co the same as I used to. My past "reverence" has turned to skeptical caution. I agree with the profit statement as that seems to be the current thinking.

  70. #70
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    i think "hate the MAN" is more true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trailwhore
    I was REAL pissed when I discovered more swarf in my current moment bb and couldn't clean it out well enough. It did suck and I've decided to get rid of the frame, but I can't complain about the very god cust service. I just wish I knew about the balls disclaimer sooner. I've never had ANY warranty issues on any bike. Would I consider getting another EW? I suppose so, I wouldn't steer people away from them either. They DO ride quite fanfreakintastically. **** happens I guess. Life's too short. Move on. I still have another ew which I'll hang onto, confident that I'll never break it. I find it rather interesting that this co seems somewhat polarizing: many people seem to hate the brand. I don't get it.... happy trails



    I had this whole winded diatribe about the man versus the bike, blah, blah, blah......, but really I can say the satisfaction from my bike has been outweighed by my dissatisfaction with the company personally. Now add all the threads about Ells owners who love there bikes but have somehow felt slighted by shifty warranties and second hand service and boutique doesn't come to mind anymore. I think for myself an honest appreciation of someone who is willing to spend 2k on a bike frame is legitimately expected and I just don't get that from this company.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by offtheedge
    I had this whole winded diatribe about the man versus the bike, blah, blah, blah......, but really I can say the satisfaction from my bike has been outweighed by my dissatisfaction with the company personally. Now add all the threads about Ells owners who love there bikes but have somehow felt slighted by shifty warranties and second hand service and boutique doesn't come to mind anymore. I think for myself an honest appreciation of someone who is willing to spend 2k on a bike frame is legitimately expected and I just don't get that from this company.
    And $2000 won't get you a frame anymore!!

  72. #72
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    Nice first post.

    Been riding my Moment in the Alps for two years, no problems.
    "but I do not see anything in the world of suspension methods that is superior to the 4 Bar.

    Dave Turner


  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtdevilrider
    actually it's the first post with the new account!
    *yawn*
    "but I do not see anything in the world of suspension methods that is superior to the 4 Bar.

    Dave Turner


  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtdevilrider
    I rode for em' for 10 years, cool bikes but I would never spend the coin on a machine made by Ellsworth. In the 10 years I rode for em' I went through 30-40 frames, Tony always complaining to me that I never took care of my bikes. ............ used to think that Ellsworth was the Bentley of bikes but over the past couple of years the Ellsworth name has turned into a pile of sh-t. If you have ?'s or comments please feel free to respond. JJMF
    Your were a moron for putting up with that for ten years if what you say is true. Something is amiss here.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    Your were a moron for putting up with that for ten years if what you say is true. Something is amiss here.

    has the Ellsworth brand been around that long? somehow i thought they've been around for 5 years tops...

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    Your were a moron for putting up with that for ten years if what you say is true. Something is amiss here.
    looks like another boring troll
    "but I do not see anything in the world of suspension methods that is superior to the 4 Bar.

    Dave Turner


  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtdevilrider
    I rode for em' for 10 years, cool bikes but I would never spend the coin on a machine made by Ellsworth. In the 10 years I rode for em' I went through 30-40 frames, Tony always complaining to me that I never took care of my bikes. The bikes are great if your just going to pedal up and down the street but when you give it some real testing the frames DO NOT HOLD UP. Ellsworth will tell you anything to get you to buy their frames and seeing how the company is failing in all directions it was time for me to move on. Ellsworth is cutting corners left and right it is only a matter of time before everybody ses it. I used to think that Ellsworth was the Bentley of bikes but over the past couple of years the Ellsworth name has turned into a pile of sh-t. If you have ?'s or comments please feel free to respond. JJMF
    John J., is that you?

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtdevilrider
    I'm up to 3 posts now, by the end of the week I should be up to around 420 or so
    Hope your 420 break this afternoon helps make your posts more creative, and maybe even usefull....Otherwise, so far all they are doing is reducing the internet signal to noise.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    Hope your 420 break this afternoon helps make your posts more creative, and maybe even usefull....Otherwise, so far all they are doing is reducing the internet signal to noise.
    While dirtdevilrider's posts are suspicious, I would not dismiss him so easily. From what I've heard/read, JJ recently left Ells after being with them for a while. Personally, there are several things that have happened recently that leave me questioning Ells' current state of affairs. I'm not an Ells hater (I used to own one of the old bushing Truths that I absolutely loved), but there could be some validity to what JJ is saying.

  80. #80
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    You are an idiot. Ellsworth has been around for a long time. I can easily recall through magazine articles that E was around about 96. In fact, the article in Mountain Biking clearly glows about the quality and craftsmanship the frame had (it was a Truth XC frame).

    I agree. At one time E did care, but with the new frames it is all about the ease of production at minimal cost to maximize profits. Don't get me wrong. Profit is not a dirty word. Without it, no frame company would be around long. But to be profitable at the expense of frame longevity, R+D, commitment or soul is to lose one's shirt in the long run. Like I have been saying, one could easily find Jokers all over the Shore, but no more. Only the Rogue remains, and now even that bike is not enough. My buddy sold his after 2 rides. Too much flex. Not to say it is a bad bike, but to intimate it is a freeride bike is pure BS. But E hopes your idiom is enough to look past that and look on the reputation it has built and hopes to ride on forever. Reps change, as do needs, and E has not kept up.

    It is sad to see, having owned 2 Dares and loved them both, to know now that I should of kept them knowing it was E at its peak.

    Really sad.

  81. #81
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    Give it time. I love the new finishes that E has, but if it is covering up quality, built finish then I am upset. What ever happened to the old Extruded Dare? There was nothing wrong with the bike, but it was more cost involved than TE wanted, so he canned it. Rather than promote it as the excellent Freeride bike it was (I owned one) he got rid of it on manufacturing cost. Sad. Sad all around. I wonder what the next 5 years bring. The Shore will not take him seriously ever again.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinch
    While dirtdevilrider's posts are suspicious, I would not dismiss him so easily. From what I've heard/read, JJ recently left Ells after being with them for a while. Personally, there are several things that have happened recently that leave me questioning Ells' current state of affairs. I'm not an Ells hater (I used to own one of the old bushing Truths that I absolutely loved), but there could be some validity to what JJ is saying.
    Sure....he might be pinch...that is valid....I am just questioning his rapport here. I'm not trying to defend Ellsworth in this thread...I have been a big critic of them in the past. What I am doing is trying to filter out that bitter poster that suddenly appears with a vengeance and chip on their shoulder, who might have a valid point-- but when they were gainfully employed, they might have been very content with the situation. I feel that Ellsworth was at its worst in the early 2000s and if he was employed there and was happy, he was part of that era and has dirty hands...I Don't buy him suddenly come crying sour grapes when he was chewing happily on them in the past.

  83. #83
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    Lookie....It happens in Turnerland too.


    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...=1#post5479066



  84. #84
    Lay off the Levers
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    Looks like the result of a aftermarket painter.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    Lookie....It happens in Turnerland too.


    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...=1#post5479066



    Yep - aftermarket paint job, not done by Turner.

    "The frame was stripped and resprayed just before christmas by Argos (a well respected UK specialist bike painter) and all the parts were mint when it was reassembled (Argos faced the headtube, I fitted the cups using a proper headset tool). Since then it's had 3 moderately wet trail rides, and 5 1/2 day play bike sessions. All stuff (and a lot more besides)that the bike has taken over the past few years with no issues of material ingress into the headtube."

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