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  1. #1
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    New question here. Why Do People Hate Tony Ellswort?

    I've been reading a lot in the forums and everyone just seems to hate the guy. Something about him taking ideas and what not and just not being a nice guy. Please don't become defensive I'm just wondering why he has the bad reputation?

    Thanks

  2. #2
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    'cause he worked hard to earn the rep he's got & deserves all the bad press he gets.
    breezy shade

  3. #3
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    I don't get it. Why does he deserve the bad press?

  4. #4
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    I see no response, did'nt meen to insult or whatever just figured you guys might know

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhodge
    'cause he worked hard to earn the rep he's got & deserves all the bad press he gets.
    He was being sarcastic. (I think??)

  6. #6
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    Fujirider1: I think, IMO, its a combo of several factors:
    1. Warranty issues - There are some people that are still pissed off over some warranty issues from quite a few years ago. Ellsworth used to offer "lifetime warranty" on their frames. And, some people managed to break their bikes and Ellsworth apparently did not, according to these people, honor the warranty. Or, at least they did not honor in a manner they expected - full replacement no questions asked. Now Ellsworth gives a two year manufacturers warranty meaning they warrant against defects but not abuse. I don't think there are a LOT of people with issues around this warranty thing, but the ones there are are pretty upset about it even after all this time. I've wondered what it would take to get them to move on (like a new bike?) but I doubt anything will work. They had a bad experience and they will always remember it that way. The threads in this forum are still around and from what I've read they feel like they have not only been cheated, but also lied to.
    2. Customer service - Some people complain about Ellsworth customer service and general responsiveness. I think I got this one figured out - people who buy or want to buy bikes with Ellsworth frames think they are or should be Ellsworth's customers. But, they are not. Ellsworth does not (at least not anymore) sell bikes or frames retail. Ellsworth's customers are bike shops and bike dealers. The people who buy bikes with Ellsworth frames are customers of their bike shop/dealer not Ellsworth. I think, IMO, some people in general don't like this situation, they have an image of the "boutique shop" selling handcrafted items with a special custom experience for them. Well, Ellsworth advertises "handcrafted bicycles made in the USA" but they are not hand-crafted by Tony himself. So, maybe this whole "big business" approach and philosophy rubs them the wrong way.
    3. Mud slinging - Its a facet of human nature. Go to any sporting event and you see rabid fans intent on disparaging the other side. It kind of goes like this: My bike is my identity. I'm great so my bike is great. We can't both be great, so you suck. Your bike is different. So your bike sucks too. TE made your bike so he also sucks.

    Anyway, this is what I have seen in reading various items in the forum.

    My disclaimer: I own two bikes with Ellsworth frames. I've owned other bikes too. I like my Ellsworth bikes and enjoy riding them. I ride a lot.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by .40AET
    He was being sarcastic. (I think??)
    Well, I think it was written with sarcasm, but he really does mean to be disparaging. I took the time to read some if his old posts. Don't think he ever owned an Ellsworth, but he seems to have sympathy for the crew that feel cheated back in 2004.
    IMO, The bad blood on all this seems to run a lot deeper than just the monetary of issues of warranty disagreements. I'm sure at first it was about the time and money, but somewhere along the line it turned venomous.

  8. #8
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    Oldhorse-Thanks for the insight. I've been wondering about some of this as well.

  9. #9
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    I am gonna have a Truth very soon I hope...

    and I don't really buy a bike for the owner...but more for the shape, of course, and for the spirit that come from the brand.
    this brand is unique...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucash290
    I am gonna have a Truth very soon I hope...

    and I don't really buy a bike for the owner...but more for the shape, of course, and for the spirit that come from the brand.
    this brand is unique...
    Lucash: I've had my Truth for three years, but got my Epi recently. If I had to have only one of them it would certainly be the Epiphany. You can read my comparison:
    Old Horse Epi Build - Finally!
    Don't know what your riding scene is, but I would encourage you to take a look at the Epiphany.

  11. #11
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    I think if you're paying as much as Ellsworth charges for a frame there shouldn't be any complaints and very little issue. Seems like they have a lot of complaints and a lot of issues.
    Last edited by shatbirdbicycle; 01-18-2008 at 08:03 AM.

  12. #12
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    oldhorse seems to have gathered the info, thanks

  13. #13
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    I agree with Oldhorse. I am looking at the Moment right now and have heard so many great things about the bike.

    I think some people think they are doing Ells a favor by buying thier bikes so they expect the world in return. From a business standpoint it would be tough to replace every bike when you know a frame cannot be broken by ripping a trail a chunk of those people are hucking a trail bike off 5 ft to flat with the pro pedal on by accident or something like that.

  14. #14
    ZEN RIDER!
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    Yup, & if you look at the time period of the complaints it was at the start of the more aggressive trial & all mnt riding. I think at the time most of us were riding xc bikes & doing things they were never intended to do, atleast not on a consistant basis.
    Plus throw some trolls & rabid fanbois from other manufacturers into the mix & you get a big mess. I never thought TE warrented the bs that went on here in the forums & thought it always made mtbr populace look bad.
    As the yrs have gone on the same group seems to perpetuate the stigma regarding Ellsworth & TE. Much of it I think stems from human nature & Ellsworth being a high end company & having the mindset early on to patent the fourbar suspension design he coined ict.
    Bottom line though some people are just unrealistic when it comes to retail expectations.
    I've been in retail or service my entire life & no matter what some people are never happy & will feed off of any negativity. I call them consumer terrorists.
    Life in every breath

  15. #15
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    Some people seem to take exception to his busines practice of getting the ICT patent. As I understand it, he patented a revised Horst link based not on the location of the pivots, but the reason (or effect) of the pivot locations, which was missing on the FSR patent owned by Specialized. There may have been a real crackdown by Specialized after that (I don't know). I would guess that Turner felt some of the fallout, as Turner paid spec. for a while and now also has a revised Horst Link. (I can see their point, I would hate it if my favorite make had to change their bikes because of paperwork.)

    These practices are not uncommon in the business world, and selling bikes is a business. A few years ago, Scott was selling a line of mtn bikes only overseas, because they were violating a patent in the US. That doesn't stop people from buying Scotts.
    At least the Ellsworth patent issue has put the bike world on notice to get good patent lawyers. The DW-link and VVP have pretty solid patents, I think.
    -j

  16. #16
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    I remember an incident a few years ago, when one of the Ellsworth models (Joker?) was having some serious breakage problems.
    Tony Ellsworth came bombing down to the forums demanding that the negative reviews be removed, even though they were legitimate complaints.
    His written complaint was very unprofessional and insulting. I normally wouldn't remember something like that for so long, but it was pretty shocking.
    That is unethical behavior and frankly influenced a frame purchase of mine 2 years ago.
    "I thought of that while riding my bike."
    Albert Einstein, on the theory of relativity.

    Peace and Long Rides...

  17. #17
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    Never met him

    I have never met Tony Ellsworth. I've had to deal with Ellworth customer service a few times for minor issues and have been taken care of promptly and courteously.

    I think much of the reasons people dislike TE have already been discussed. There's the issue of warranty claims not being addressed satisfactorily. There's the issues with Turner over the ICT patent. There are customer service issues. I think people also don't like the fact that he thinks his bikes are so special that they can charge more than most botique bikes.

    But, Ellsworth makes amazing bikes. I have owned bikes from Trek (1), Iron Horse (1), Schwinn (1), Intense (1), Titus (3), Banshee (1), Foes (1), Niner (1), Gunnar (1), Kona (1), Orbea (3), and Seven (2). I now own 3 Ellsworth bikes - a Rogue, a Moment, and an Epiphany. If I had more room in my garage, I probably would own more Ellworth bikes.
    Kokopelli Racing

    "Curb drops to flat, or curb drops to transition? There's a BIG difference there." Qfactor03

  18. #18
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    yangpei,

    That is an impressive line up of previously owned and current ownership.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjcools
    yangpei,

    That is an impressive line up of previously owned and current ownership.
    I agree with that. I would be interested to hear a comparison of Moment to Epi from an experienced owner of both

  20. #20
    Rolling
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    Cuz gothic lettering and hate go together.


  21. #21
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    Epi vs. Moment

    A comparison between the Epi and Moment would probably much more interesting and useful if the bikes were set-up similarly - ie as trail bikes. Unfortunately, my bikes are not.

    My Epi is set-up cross-country-ish. I have a Float RLC fork, RP23 shock, 2.1Nevegal tires, and 24" low-rise carbon riser bar. It weighs about 26 lbs.

    My Moment, on the other hand, is more trail bike. I'm running a DHX Air, 36 TALAS RLC, 2.35 Minion rubger, and a 26" riser bar. It weighs about 31 lbs.

    So, the bikes feel quite different. The Epi is definitely more responsive and more efficient. The steeper head angle and shorter travel fork make climbing very effortless. The Moment feels heavier, but is really plush (but still efficient). It just feels natural. Of all my bikes, the Moment feels the most natural and comfortable rolling around. Of course, I have to dial down the fork travel and lean forward for steep climbs. If I had to have just one bike, it'll probably be the Moment, but set up with lighter weight stuff.

    I apologize to the original poster about the side discussion. We should probably talk about why people bad mouth TE.
    Kokopelli Racing

    "Curb drops to flat, or curb drops to transition? There's a BIG difference there." Qfactor03

  22. #22
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    If he charged like 300 bucks for the frames , I guess all of us would be happy and could'nt care less who he was . But unfortunately these bikes dont come cheap and I guess it pisses people off that he sells expensive frames .

    But in the end , nobody put a gun to our heads and told us to buy an Ellsworth . I guess some may have complaints about CS . I dealt with their CS and I would say I am content . Tony E helped me out with fixing my old 02 Truth , it may have taken a while but in the end Ells made good in fixing my problems.

    I just love the bikes and when am out riding it's a great feeling .

    In summary my answer to the question raised would be, the people who probably hate him are either people who want the frame but cant afford it , the bike makers who have to design around the patent or some of us ( ells owners) who got warranty problems .

    The guy is probably OK, he is trying to be enviromentally conscious with his solar and wind powered factory ? he also has that pink option for breast cancer research ( Would the Chinese industrialist who manufactures millions more bikes for Giant, Trek , Merida ,etc. give a crap about such issues ).

    So Tony , if you are reading this post send me a new bike ! A smoke Truth in Large !

  23. #23
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    I agree

    Well said Jaydg-They may have their problems but their bikes sure are a blast to ride!

  24. #24
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    Perception is a tricky thing, especially when you've never met someone personally

  25. #25
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    Hi
    In france after 14 years off Ellsworth distribution we waranty 99% off broaken parts
    probably because we sell the right frame to the right people
    no body use a wrong shock or a wrong fork on their Ellsworth frame

    for me personaly after 14 years riding ellsworth bike and after aproximatly
    50 personal Ellsworth bike, I never broak anny thing and i still in love about that bikes

    at the same time I importe in to france some off the best US bikes
    Intense, Turner, Ibis, Foes, Niner, salsa, rotec etc
    nothing is better than Ellsworth ( exepte in downhill ok )
    Evolve is the best 29" I ever test
    Moment is the best "small free ride" I ever test
    Rogue is the best Free ride bike I ever test
    Epiphany is the best trail bike I ever test

    You could said me everry thing you whant
    he creat one off the best bike compagnie
    Tony I still a big fan
    Ellsworth addict cince 16 years

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