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  1. #1
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    New question here. Why Do People Hate Tony Ellswort?

    I've been reading a lot in the forums and everyone just seems to hate the guy. Something about him taking ideas and what not and just not being a nice guy. Please don't become defensive I'm just wondering why he has the bad reputation?

    Thanks

  2. #2
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    'cause he worked hard to earn the rep he's got & deserves all the bad press he gets.
    breezy shade

  3. #3
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    I don't get it. Why does he deserve the bad press?

  4. #4
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    I see no response, did'nt meen to insult or whatever just figured you guys might know

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhodge
    'cause he worked hard to earn the rep he's got & deserves all the bad press he gets.
    He was being sarcastic. (I think??)

  6. #6
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    Fujirider1: I think, IMO, its a combo of several factors:
    1. Warranty issues - There are some people that are still pissed off over some warranty issues from quite a few years ago. Ellsworth used to offer "lifetime warranty" on their frames. And, some people managed to break their bikes and Ellsworth apparently did not, according to these people, honor the warranty. Or, at least they did not honor in a manner they expected - full replacement no questions asked. Now Ellsworth gives a two year manufacturers warranty meaning they warrant against defects but not abuse. I don't think there are a LOT of people with issues around this warranty thing, but the ones there are are pretty upset about it even after all this time. I've wondered what it would take to get them to move on (like a new bike?) but I doubt anything will work. They had a bad experience and they will always remember it that way. The threads in this forum are still around and from what I've read they feel like they have not only been cheated, but also lied to.
    2. Customer service - Some people complain about Ellsworth customer service and general responsiveness. I think I got this one figured out - people who buy or want to buy bikes with Ellsworth frames think they are or should be Ellsworth's customers. But, they are not. Ellsworth does not (at least not anymore) sell bikes or frames retail. Ellsworth's customers are bike shops and bike dealers. The people who buy bikes with Ellsworth frames are customers of their bike shop/dealer not Ellsworth. I think, IMO, some people in general don't like this situation, they have an image of the "boutique shop" selling handcrafted items with a special custom experience for them. Well, Ellsworth advertises "handcrafted bicycles made in the USA" but they are not hand-crafted by Tony himself. So, maybe this whole "big business" approach and philosophy rubs them the wrong way.
    3. Mud slinging - Its a facet of human nature. Go to any sporting event and you see rabid fans intent on disparaging the other side. It kind of goes like this: My bike is my identity. I'm great so my bike is great. We can't both be great, so you suck. Your bike is different. So your bike sucks too. TE made your bike so he also sucks.

    Anyway, this is what I have seen in reading various items in the forum.

    My disclaimer: I own two bikes with Ellsworth frames. I've owned other bikes too. I like my Ellsworth bikes and enjoy riding them. I ride a lot.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by .40AET
    He was being sarcastic. (I think??)
    Well, I think it was written with sarcasm, but he really does mean to be disparaging. I took the time to read some if his old posts. Don't think he ever owned an Ellsworth, but he seems to have sympathy for the crew that feel cheated back in 2004.
    IMO, The bad blood on all this seems to run a lot deeper than just the monetary of issues of warranty disagreements. I'm sure at first it was about the time and money, but somewhere along the line it turned venomous.

  8. #8
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    Oldhorse-Thanks for the insight. I've been wondering about some of this as well.

  9. #9
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    I am gonna have a Truth very soon I hope...

    and I don't really buy a bike for the owner...but more for the shape, of course, and for the spirit that come from the brand.
    this brand is unique...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucash290
    I am gonna have a Truth very soon I hope...

    and I don't really buy a bike for the owner...but more for the shape, of course, and for the spirit that come from the brand.
    this brand is unique...
    Lucash: I've had my Truth for three years, but got my Epi recently. If I had to have only one of them it would certainly be the Epiphany. You can read my comparison:
    Old Horse Epi Build - Finally!
    Don't know what your riding scene is, but I would encourage you to take a look at the Epiphany.

  11. #11
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    I think if you're paying as much as Ellsworth charges for a frame there shouldn't be any complaints and very little issue. Seems like they have a lot of complaints and a lot of issues.
    Last edited by shatbirdbicycle; 01-18-2008 at 09:03 AM.

  12. #12
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    oldhorse seems to have gathered the info, thanks

  13. #13
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    I agree with Oldhorse. I am looking at the Moment right now and have heard so many great things about the bike.

    I think some people think they are doing Ells a favor by buying thier bikes so they expect the world in return. From a business standpoint it would be tough to replace every bike when you know a frame cannot be broken by ripping a trail a chunk of those people are hucking a trail bike off 5 ft to flat with the pro pedal on by accident or something like that.

  14. #14
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    Yup, & if you look at the time period of the complaints it was at the start of the more aggressive trial & all mnt riding. I think at the time most of us were riding xc bikes & doing things they were never intended to do, atleast not on a consistant basis.
    Plus throw some trolls & rabid fanbois from other manufacturers into the mix & you get a big mess. I never thought TE warrented the bs that went on here in the forums & thought it always made mtbr populace look bad.
    As the yrs have gone on the same group seems to perpetuate the stigma regarding Ellsworth & TE. Much of it I think stems from human nature & Ellsworth being a high end company & having the mindset early on to patent the fourbar suspension design he coined ict.
    Bottom line though some people are just unrealistic when it comes to retail expectations.
    I've been in retail or service my entire life & no matter what some people are never happy & will feed off of any negativity. I call them consumer terrorists.
    Life in every breath

  15. #15
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    Some people seem to take exception to his busines practice of getting the ICT patent. As I understand it, he patented a revised Horst link based not on the location of the pivots, but the reason (or effect) of the pivot locations, which was missing on the FSR patent owned by Specialized. There may have been a real crackdown by Specialized after that (I don't know). I would guess that Turner felt some of the fallout, as Turner paid spec. for a while and now also has a revised Horst Link. (I can see their point, I would hate it if my favorite make had to change their bikes because of paperwork.)

    These practices are not uncommon in the business world, and selling bikes is a business. A few years ago, Scott was selling a line of mtn bikes only overseas, because they were violating a patent in the US. That doesn't stop people from buying Scotts.
    At least the Ellsworth patent issue has put the bike world on notice to get good patent lawyers. The DW-link and VVP have pretty solid patents, I think.
    -j

  16. #16
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    I remember an incident a few years ago, when one of the Ellsworth models (Joker?) was having some serious breakage problems.
    Tony Ellsworth came bombing down to the forums demanding that the negative reviews be removed, even though they were legitimate complaints.
    His written complaint was very unprofessional and insulting. I normally wouldn't remember something like that for so long, but it was pretty shocking.
    That is unethical behavior and frankly influenced a frame purchase of mine 2 years ago.
    Communist Party Member Since 1917.

  17. #17
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    Never met him

    I have never met Tony Ellsworth. I've had to deal with Ellworth customer service a few times for minor issues and have been taken care of promptly and courteously.

    I think much of the reasons people dislike TE have already been discussed. There's the issue of warranty claims not being addressed satisfactorily. There's the issues with Turner over the ICT patent. There are customer service issues. I think people also don't like the fact that he thinks his bikes are so special that they can charge more than most botique bikes.

    But, Ellsworth makes amazing bikes. I have owned bikes from Trek (1), Iron Horse (1), Schwinn (1), Intense (1), Titus (3), Banshee (1), Foes (1), Niner (1), Gunnar (1), Kona (1), Orbea (3), and Seven (2). I now own 3 Ellsworth bikes - a Rogue, a Moment, and an Epiphany. If I had more room in my garage, I probably would own more Ellworth bikes.
    Kokopelli Racing

    "Curb drops to flat, or curb drops to transition? There's a BIG difference there." Qfactor03

  18. #18
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    yangpei,

    That is an impressive line up of previously owned and current ownership.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjcools
    yangpei,

    That is an impressive line up of previously owned and current ownership.
    I agree with that. I would be interested to hear a comparison of Moment to Epi from an experienced owner of both

  20. #20
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    Cuz gothic lettering and hate go together.


  21. #21
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    Epi vs. Moment

    A comparison between the Epi and Moment would probably much more interesting and useful if the bikes were set-up similarly - ie as trail bikes. Unfortunately, my bikes are not.

    My Epi is set-up cross-country-ish. I have a Float RLC fork, RP23 shock, 2.1Nevegal tires, and 24" low-rise carbon riser bar. It weighs about 26 lbs.

    My Moment, on the other hand, is more trail bike. I'm running a DHX Air, 36 TALAS RLC, 2.35 Minion rubger, and a 26" riser bar. It weighs about 31 lbs.

    So, the bikes feel quite different. The Epi is definitely more responsive and more efficient. The steeper head angle and shorter travel fork make climbing very effortless. The Moment feels heavier, but is really plush (but still efficient). It just feels natural. Of all my bikes, the Moment feels the most natural and comfortable rolling around. Of course, I have to dial down the fork travel and lean forward for steep climbs. If I had to have just one bike, it'll probably be the Moment, but set up with lighter weight stuff.

    I apologize to the original poster about the side discussion. We should probably talk about why people bad mouth TE.
    Kokopelli Racing

    "Curb drops to flat, or curb drops to transition? There's a BIG difference there." Qfactor03

  22. #22
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    If he charged like 300 bucks for the frames , I guess all of us would be happy and could'nt care less who he was . But unfortunately these bikes dont come cheap and I guess it pisses people off that he sells expensive frames .

    But in the end , nobody put a gun to our heads and told us to buy an Ellsworth . I guess some may have complaints about CS . I dealt with their CS and I would say I am content . Tony E helped me out with fixing my old 02 Truth , it may have taken a while but in the end Ells made good in fixing my problems.

    I just love the bikes and when am out riding it's a great feeling .

    In summary my answer to the question raised would be, the people who probably hate him are either people who want the frame but cant afford it , the bike makers who have to design around the patent or some of us ( ells owners) who got warranty problems .

    The guy is probably OK, he is trying to be enviromentally conscious with his solar and wind powered factory ? he also has that pink option for breast cancer research ( Would the Chinese industrialist who manufactures millions more bikes for Giant, Trek , Merida ,etc. give a crap about such issues ).

    So Tony , if you are reading this post send me a new bike ! A smoke Truth in Large !

  23. #23
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    I agree

    Well said Jaydg-They may have their problems but their bikes sure are a blast to ride!

  24. #24
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    Perception is a tricky thing, especially when you've never met someone personally

  25. #25
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    Hi
    In france after 14 years off Ellsworth distribution we waranty 99% off broaken parts
    probably because we sell the right frame to the right people
    no body use a wrong shock or a wrong fork on their Ellsworth frame

    for me personaly after 14 years riding ellsworth bike and after aproximatly
    50 personal Ellsworth bike, I never broak anny thing and i still in love about that bikes

    at the same time I importe in to france some off the best US bikes
    Intense, Turner, Ibis, Foes, Niner, salsa, rotec etc
    nothing is better than Ellsworth ( exepte in downhill ok )
    Evolve is the best 29" I ever test
    Moment is the best "small free ride" I ever test
    Rogue is the best Free ride bike I ever test
    Epiphany is the best trail bike I ever test

    You could said me everry thing you whant
    he creat one off the best bike compagnie
    Tony I still a big fan
    Ellsworth addict cince 16 years

  26. #26
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    Please, remember something.

    Those of you having good CS service now are getting that service BECAUSE of the older issues and this site. Hopefully, TE and crew have worked out the kinks, but I am not impressed.

    It really is too bad that the mods removed the threads from a few years ago. They set still standing view/reply count recods for this site.

    I remember him personally replying to a thread about removing brake bosses from a Truth frame. He said to go ahead, but his warranty claimed the work voided said warranty. He was called on that, and other issues.

    EW also used to have a lifetime warranty on their frames, but were constantly charging retail for parts to allow the warrantied part work. Crap like that. i agree that it was at a time that saw alot of skills progression, but his (TE) replies and accusations were WAY out of line.
    gfy

  27. #27
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    I like lists

    Quote Originally Posted by yangpei
    But, Ellsworth makes amazing bikes. I have owned bikes from Trek (1), Iron Horse (1), Schwinn (1), Intense (1), Titus (3), Banshee (1), Foes (1), Niner (1), Gunnar (1), Kona (1), Orbea (3), and Seven (2). I now own 3 Ellsworth bikes - a Rogue, a Moment, and an Epiphany. If I had more room in my garage, I probably would own more Ellworth bikes.
    I'll throw my mountain bike ownership history out there with yangpei. In a some what chronologic order: Alpine, Trek, Klein (pre-Trek), Bontrager (pre-Trek), Kona, Ellsworth, Schwinn, Fat Chance, Moots, Independent Fabrications, Titus, Turner, Gunnar. 29ers: VooDoo, Asylum, Sycip, Ellsworth, Dean. I have owned more than one frame and style of frame of several of these manufactures. I currently don't own a 26er so current rides are 29ers a Dean Colonel and an Ellsworth Evolve. I don't have tremendous racer cred but I've been riding hard for FUN and fitness for a long time and have experience on a lot of bikes.
    I'd been on a Truth (2 frames) 10 years until I switched to an Evolve last spring. I have never broken an Ellsworth frame. Ellsworth's 4-bar is what I want out of my FS rig. Others come and go but that ride quality keeps an Ellsworth in the stable.

    I can't defend Ellsworth's CS or Tony's recent public relations because I haven't spoken to either in 8 or 9 years. When I did "back in the day" Tony spoke to me on the phone and troubleshot my problem and was helpful and polite. I can't say I wouldn't feel differently or might not swap to Turners if I broke a frame and felt like I got run around.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    Those of you having good CS service now are getting that service BECAUSE of the older issues and this site. Hopefully, TE and crew have worked out the kinks, but I am not impressed.

    It really is too bad that the mods removed the threads from a few years ago. They set still standing view/reply count recods for this site.

    I remember him personally replying to a thread about removing brake bosses from a Truth frame. He said to go ahead, but his warranty claimed the work voided said warranty. He was called on that, and other issues.

    EW also used to have a lifetime warranty on their frames, but were constantly charging retail for parts to allow the warrantied part work. Crap like that. i agree that it was at a time that saw alot of skills progression, but his (TE) replies and accusations were WAY out of line.
    Not that I am defending him nor do I work for him . Actually , he works for me "Build me a bike here is some money , Make it light make it pretty watch the welds "

    Kidding aside , with regards to warranty issues . I have had experience with the lifetime warranty ( pre 2003) and the two year warranty ( post 2003 ? ) .

    I developed hairline cracks on the rockers of my 02 Truth , I sent the broken rockers in and got the wrong rockers back ( 07 model ) . I was then given an option of keeping the rockers and purchasing a 07 front triangle although the purchase of the front triangle would set me back $750 . I figured I did not want to spend that much since using my Truth is now secondary to my Moment riding . I told them I just want a replacement of my Older style rocker . It took them quite a while to send me one , but they did and it did not cost me any bucks . Although I have heard that some of us ELLs owners may have had to buy an upgraded part , that differs from my situation wherein I recently ( 2007 claim , got rockers this month ) got warrantied for a six year old bike.

    With regards to post 2003 Ellsworths they have been fair to me . I had a 04 Truth which developed a split in the weld of the seat post and top tube after six months use , Since I have a 02 Truth also I asked that they just take in my 04 and replace it with a Moment , I pay for the difference in retail price ( $300 ) . They agreed to my proposal and the 04 Truth is now my 05 Moment.

    I understand that there may be a few who are upset that the warranty is now two years versus lifetime . Although I would like to note that the current bikes that they make ( except for the initial batch of Epi rockers ) seem to be improved and tougher versions, and would probably survive until retirement as a second bike by the first owner or would give in after we have bought a newer bike and sold the old one on Ebay or wherever .

    Look at the evolution of the Truth . Comparing my 02 and 04 model with current production , the current chainstay probably wont crack ( 2 improved variations since ) , the weld I broke on my 04 is now heavily gusseted ( 06 model up ) , They fixed the rocker problem and seat stay problem by changing leverage ratios in 2003 . If I am not mistaken the seat stays are also new .

    My point is with the quality of the bikes now , I dont think I would worry too much about stuff breaking and the lifetime warranty downgraded to two years thing is not too big a stinker for me .

    My 05 Moment is now out of it's warranty life , I feel that it is still as sturdy as it was when it was new .

    But if he was out of line and being a jerk with the replies he gave then , I guess yes it reflects on the personality of the individual . But for me , I could'nt give a rat's ass , I love riding my bikes and so far the guy's company has come through (IMO ) with my CS expectations

  29. #29
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    I'm not a huge fan of TE either, but I wouldn't spend my life trolling about it. You have to remember the mtbr forums are a drop in the ocean of bikers. Usually the TE bashing comes from the same dozen or so people (who despite denial haven't got over the HL loss). I've had great CS from Ellsworth and also from Turner (and no I'm not a sickly homer who spends his life living up DT's backside). My Moment is an amazing beast, ridden all over the world and thrashed regularly in the Alps - all the guides whom I meet want one after riding it. I'd buy Ellsworth again, sadly not Turner as in my country they are around £400-£500 more expensive.

    So ignore the trolls and guys that continually b1tch and generally make nasty comments - just enjoy your ride as you're never (luckily) gonna meet these juvenile people on the trails.
    "but I do not see anything in the world of suspension methods that is superior to the 4 Bar.

    Dave Turner


  30. #30
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    That 'core' group does have some pretty valid points, as far as I can tell. Sure, Ellsworth looks like it's really cleaned up it's CS now, but if the founder really did show his true colours years ago, I'd prefer to know what they were before bad publicity forced him into hiding.

    I flat out admit that I've never owned an Ellsworth. And because of things that I've discovered from these forums, I never will. How a bike rides is one thing I look at, as is customer service. And if there is one, I'll also look at the driving personality behind the company.

  31. #31
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    Mistakes happen...

    Quote Originally Posted by womble
    That 'core' group does have some pretty valid points, as far as I can tell. Sure, Ellsworth looks like it's really cleaned up it's CS now, but if the founder really did show his true colours years ago, I'd prefer to know what they were before bad publicity forced him into hiding.

    I flat out admit that I've never owned an Ellsworth. And because of things that I've discovered from these forums, I never will. How a bike rides is one thing I look at, as is customer service. And if there is one, I'll also look at the driving personality behind the company.

    I think it's foolish to roast someone for some things they said years ago. I have said some really dumb things in my life and those are not the defining moments of my life or my character. Are a few out of line posts his "true colors" or just a bad choice in a public forum? It seems that he has learned his lesson. Now, if he said things to you personally in this forum, then hold a grudge (I would). But I don't hold a grudge for anyone else.

    If you talk to enough people, you will find bad CS in every company. You won't buy anything again. I had a girlfriend that wouldn't buy a Honda car again. Personally, I don't drink anything made by Coca-Cola. But that's history that happened to me.

  32. #32
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    I think people take these forums way to serious. It is a great forum and I am pretty much addicted to reading this stuff but the blasting needs to be reduced drastically. I do not own an ellsworth, but I wish I did. I have been looking at 6' bikes for a bit and am very interested in the moment. I think what interests me the most is the love/hate for ellsworth bikes, makes me want one just to piss off the haters.

    I have a buddy that works for them and loves it, he is really good friends with TE and he has never once said anything negative about the guy or his job. He has only been there about a year so it is post bad times for them but hey, he has a great job and gets to ride everyday.

    I think it is crazy that so many people still argue about this old beef which has long since been resolved.

    I love bikes, lets keep the flaming to a minimum boys. (and girls)

  33. #33
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    Please, dont get me wrong.

    I have always admired (and lusted after) EW's welds, and designs. It was after I discovered what was going down with his outfit on this site that I changed my mind.


    However, I still feel that the older CS issues, and his personal postings, have some bearing on the contued sucess of the company. Period. He (TE and Co) had MANY chances to make things right, and they know it.

    It really is a shame that those threads are gone. Even if they had been closed, they would still be getting high view counts.
    gfy

  34. #34
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    i guess you would never

    buy a bmw, as they used to build tanks in the WWII... hmmm... kinda weak argument, but to each his own...

    sometimes, it is pretty hard to remain silent to all the trash talk that is being directed against one's person... i am sure most of us got ourselves in trouble more than once because of our temper - no? is that a good reason for our friends or colleagues to dump us forever? dont think so...

    but as i said, to each his own, and if you dont feel like giving business to Ellsworth, good for you... it is your money...


    Quote Originally Posted by womble
    That 'core' group does have some pretty valid points, as far as I can tell. Sure, Ellsworth looks like it's really cleaned up it's CS now, but if the founder really did show his true colours years ago, I'd prefer to know what they were before bad publicity forced him into hiding.

    I flat out admit that I've never owned an Ellsworth. And because of things that I've discovered from these forums, I never will. How a bike rides is one thing I look at, as is customer service. And if there is one, I'll also look at the driving personality behind the company.

  35. #35
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    you make it easy

    for most to get you wrong...

    do you really think this website made Ellsworth change or "improve" their CS or whatnot?

    if you do - you are a fool... what percentage of MTBers read this board and/or actively participate in the discussion... i often ask people that i meet on the trails if they know of MTBR - the percentage so far of those that have heard about it is barely 1 out of 20... and i am talking about above average MTBers... cant call the number significant at all...

    Ellsworth is evolving because as any company, they are looking at ways to improve their business, make better quality product and provide better experience to their customers... they realize that not everyone is after their product - it is the niche market where many factors must be taken into account, blah, blah, blah... you are smart enough and it is probably time to pull the plug on that outdated theme...

    as you can see - even such an inflammatory thread is going down pretty positively - so why dont you catch the band wagon? if that is going to cut it - i'll chip in couple of bucks to support your next Ellsworth purchase, so that you dont have to only lust about it... fair enough?

    ugh, gotta go back putting studded tires on my Id... night riding in snow in the rock garden is so much fun... have you ever tried it?


    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    I have always admired (and lusted after) EW's welds, and designs. It was after I discovered what was going down with his outfit on this site that I changed my mind.


    However, I still feel that the older CS issues, and his personal postings, have some bearing on the contued sucess of the company. Period. He (TE and Co) had MANY chances to make things right, and they know it.

    It really is a shame that those threads are gone. Even if they had been closed, they would still be getting high view counts.

  36. #36
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    You seriously think that the smaller manufacturers or designers don't pay attention to the forums? Ventana, Knolly, Ibex, DW all spend a lot of time posting here. They Yeti are certainly aware of the Yeti forum (we interact with the staff constantly then make references to this on the forum) but don't post. Most manufacturers who don't actively post probably lurk- they'd be quite stupid to ignore such an easily accessible, early-adopter and vocal market.

    Ellsworth used to post here, very vocally by most accounts. My guess would be that Ellsworth (as a company, at least) still scans this forum, but realises that there is enough residual ill-feeling that a minority would constantly heckle any official posters so they just lurk. There is absolutely no upside to them posting and all they can do is keep up good CS and let that speak for itself.

    Edit: I just read the thread posted by OldHorse (below). Wow, what a trainwreck. Looks like the warranty terms were changed pretty much as a result of MTBR debates at the time. Good stuff.
    Last edited by womble; 01-22-2008 at 11:26 PM.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    It really is a shame that those threads are gone. Even if they had been closed, they would still be getting high view counts.
    Actually Damion I think they are still there. They just got locked and pulled off the board they were listed under. But, you can still access them from, for example, your public profile:
    "check out Tony's reply to his warranty issues! 04-02-2004 137 5,891 General Discussion"
    check out Tony's reply to his warranty issues!
    I tried to read as much of all this history as possible. What a terrible mess. He didn't know when to leave things alone, tried to explain himself and got into it deeper. Any good businessman knows that you cannot win a public argument with a disgruntled customer.

  38. #38
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    you are 100% right.

    They (or at least some) of the old threds are still around.


    You can also search for TE's profile Tony Ellsworth and see for yourself.


    Oso, I knew you wouild chime in at some point. Yes, I am POSITIVE that the old CS issues and this site had a direct change on how CS is handled now, and the wording of the warranty. Hopefully, things have changed for the better, and I am glad to hear about positive CS.

    The OP asked, so here is another.
    Removing rear rim brake bosses?

    Then there is my all time favorite: Removing rear rim brake bosses?

    Like I said, I am glad that things have changed.
    gfy

  39. #39
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    Wow! What an interesting thread! I have two Ellsworth bikes, a specialist and a truth, and I love them both. Never dealt with Ellsworth CS, my local auth dealer has taken care of me very well including a "recall" of Specialist frames (my frame was/is fine). Any boutique company will have CS issues and very vocal dissatisfied customers, it is the simple law of human nature that assures us anyone who feels they have been wronged will make a lot more noise than a simple satisfied customer, especially on internet forums such as MTBR. What makes things worse for TE is that his products are subject to discretional use, so you know some of the failures are from excessively aggressive riding, drops, or crashes and are in no way his or the companies fault.

    Now I am sure that some frames have failed in the course of proper use, and it seems that folks have had a wide variety of experiences yet very few of them refer to the local authorized dealer as having any involvement in the CS process and I think this is a problem caused by people buying frames from mail order or other AD's that can't provide them with CS.... This is a major oversight on the part of the buyer as the local shop is often your best advocate when dealing with a warranty issue. The shop has a relationship with you, needs to keep your business regardless of the brand of bike they sell you, and will generally back you up with regard to how you use your bike and whether the damage is caused by you or a genuine product failure.

    Even better, my local AD has sold me both my frames at a nice discount as long as I bought an extra part or two for the build, nothing expensive either, I added a seatpost and headset to each frame purchase and got about 20% off each frame.

    So I am left wondering why folks would buy a bike without local support. Would you buy a car with no local dealer for the brand around?

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    They (or at least some) of the old threds are still around.


    You can also search for TE's profile Tony Ellsworth and see for yourself.


    Oso, I knew you wouild chime in at some point. Yes, I am POSITIVE that the old CS issues and this site had a direct change on how CS is handled now, and the wording of the warranty. Hopefully, things have changed for the better, and I am glad to hear about positive CS.

    The OP asked, so here is another.
    Removing rear rim brake bosses?

    Then there is my all time favorite: Removing rear rim brake bosses?

    Like I said, I am glad that things have changed.
    Not to burst your bubble but that post makes you look like a troll & a a$$hat. So does that mean you are??? Is that the sum of your identity? TE gave advice on how to repair something & you all blew it out of proportion & knit picked it to death. I'm guessing but i'd wager money on it, that TE could have spoken gospel & he would still get crucified by the "core" group of haters.

    My take on the whole TE fiasco pretty much goes with Old Horse. I'm guessing TE isn't into or part of the internet generation & got burned by it by posting when he should have just stopped typing. Its hard not to sometimes & I think we all have fell victim to it....like I am now
    As far as a business model & company Ellsworth is eco friendly & helping support breast cancer & is keeping jobs in the USA and supporting the US economy. Not bad for a small bike company. He could just be stuffing all the $$$ he can into his pockets & not give a damn but has chosen not to. Sounds like a pretty good guy to me.
    Life in every breath

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mt.Biker E
    As far as a business model & company Ellsworth is eco friendly & helping support breast cancer & is keeping jobs in the USA and supporting the US economy. Not bad for a small bike company. He could just be stuffing all the $$$ he can into his pockets & not give a damn but has chosen not to. Sounds like a pretty good guy to me.
    Does anyone know when ellsworth was founded? Most companies have some very rough times when they start to really grow in size. It's hard for owners to trust hired people to help run their company. I suspect that Ellsworth may have been going through these frustrating growing pains when all the CS S#!t went down. It's really common. The companies that can make their way through the growth will correct the mistakes. Ellsworth seems to be following this pattern. They had some rough times, but they are settled into a larger size and running more smoothly. If they tried to jump to the Trek, Cannondale, and Specialized size, then they would again have really rough times. I seem to recall hearing Cannondales called Crack and Fails. They had their rough times, but corrected them. Trek had their problems too. Companies like Turner and Ventana seem to have learned from the Ellsworth mistrakes and positioned themselves in the market with good CS as a way of standing out. Ellsworth stands out by name recognition, high quality, innovation, and Bling (i.e. fancy ano finishes, etc.).

  42. #42
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    fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mt.Biker E
    Not to burst your bubble but that post makes you look like a troll & a a$$hat. So does that mean you are??? Is that the sum of your identity? TE gave advice on how to repair something & you all blew it out of proportion & knit picked it to death. I'm guessing but i'd wager money on it, that TE could have spoken gospel & he would still get crucified by the "core" group of haters.

    I knew before posting those links that they may be looked at like that. In some ways I agree. I was out of line douring that time. I have toned it down considerably. Sorry if it seems harsh, but I have never "hated" EW or any other company in the cycling industry. I simply felt (and still do) that if a company is going to advertise a lifetime warranty, that they had damn well better be able to back it up. Period.

    Now that these changes have come about, it seems that EW is doing just fine (as expected by all) and most are getting decent CS now. That is good news.

    The OP asked why, so links were provided. I am not trying to kick a dead horse here, sorry if it seems that way.


    Oso, you can get bent. (in a friendly way, lol.) Long time no chat.
    gfy

  43. #43
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    yeah, true dat...

    last season was the best biking season for me ever... rode pretty much from the start of the year, in preparation for the Transrockies.. raced every conceivable race in the area, including a couple of solo 8 hours races - which is quite an exercise for a 200+ bag of meat and bones... placed well in my category as well... raced transrockies and had unforgettable time with all participants... took a break after the epic and raced final 8 hour tag team race with my transrockies partner and podiumed there - an icing on the cake... thought it was the end of the racing season, then got offered a spot at LaRuta in Costarica... well, how could i say no... raced the toughest race in this and probably my next life and had a blast, amid all the suffering... hope to go back for more...

    no wonder i didnt have time to post on this board... which may have been a good thing...

    it seems that this board is finally starting to take some reasonable shape... Ellsworth has stabilized it's presence on the market with some quality products... Got an Epiphany, but am not building it until i let some other frames go... cant store more than 6 bikes in my condo... sigh... but it is a beauty - nebula blue....

    anything to write home in your neck of the woods? guess steve3 is deceased - havent heard anything from any character on this board that would even remotely resemble his stature... how about Pete? maybe he returns as well - with a bit less bitterness...

    after all, we are all brothers... screw animosities... darn computers... if we were on the trail, no time would be wasted on the stupidity that we went through a while ago... but we are still here to never have to go through it again...

    okay you stinky little bastard?





    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    I knew before posting those links that they may be looked at like that. In some ways I agree. I was out of line douring that time. I have toned it down considerably. Sorry if it seems harsh, but I have never "hated" EW or any other company in the cycling industry. I simply felt (and still do) that if a company is going to advertise a lifetime warranty, that they had damn well better be able to back it up. Period.

    Now that these changes have come about, it seems that EW is doing just fine (as expected by all) and most are getting decent CS now. That is good news.

    The OP asked why, so links were provided. I am not trying to kick a dead horse here, sorry if it seems that way.


    Oso, you can get bent. (in a friendly way, lol.) Long time no chat.

  44. #44
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    Some can't handle the Truth

    I own a Truth. I broke it and Ell took care of it. Sh?@ breaks. I have seen a lot of bikes break..
    If you ain't hike you ain't Mnt Bikin

  45. #45
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    I owned 5 Ellsworths. All of them broke. All of them were warrantied. I no longer ride Ellsworth because of the time lost dealing with the warranties and the frustration caused to both myself and the LBS. My LBS no longer sells Ellsworths either.

    In the last year, I've broke both my SS and my dualie. Both took 3-5 weeks to warranty. Both were much better experiences than Ellsworth.

    I also believe there is an intentional effort from Ellsworth's marketing to mislead or misdirect people especially in the review section of websites like MTBR.

    But that's my opinion.

    -B

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by bingemtbr
    I owned 5 Ellsworths. All of them broke. All of them were warrantied. I no longer ride Ellsworth because of the time lost dealing with the warranties and the frustration caused to both myself and the LBS. My LBS no longer sells Ellsworths either.

    In the last year, I've broke both my SS and my dualie. Both took 3-5 weeks to warranty. Both were much better experiences than Ellsworth.

    I also believe there is an intentional effort from Ellsworth's marketing to mislead or misdirect people especially in the review section of websites like MTBR.

    But that's my opinion.

    -B
    Man, You are hard on your equipment! What kind of bikes did you break this year?
    What kind of riding do you do?

  47. #47
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    .......


  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    .......


  49. #49
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    hucking off the

    roof of the local garage...

    maybe he should switch to badminton????


    Quote Originally Posted by JIMBOLAYA
    Man, You are hard on your equipment! What kind of bikes did you break this year?
    What kind of riding do you do?

  50. #50
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    It is fashionable to dislike him

    I think for a while Ellsworth had some quality control problems. My Isis used to squeek like crazy from the main pivot right after I bought it and the rear disc tab was crooked. The paint sucked too. But now the bikes look much better with very few reports of broken Ellsworth bikes. I have heard he is tempermental at times but any more than Dave Turner or other major company owners? I doubt it!

    Jaybo

  51. #51
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    I'm not convinced that Turner makes the best performing bikes on the planet; however, I am convinced Turner makes the most durable bikes out there! My bike is on year five without a pivot change. I know a guy who changed the pivots on his Blur three times in one year. Ouch! Ventana makes the prettiest bikes out there. Touch choice. Ride as many bikes as possible before making choice. The American Taiwan debate is kind of foolish. I have been to the Ellsworth factory in Washington; I would rather have a Pacific Rim builder, believe me!

    Jaybo

    I would agree on the customer service but warranty and ride are very debatable. I love Turner bikes but Ellsworth makes a nice riding bike. My major difference besides customer care is the bushings vrs. bearings difference. The bushings last forever....

    Jaybo
    It is fashionable to dislike him

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I think for a while Ellsworth had some quality control problems. My Isis used to squeek like crazy from the main pivot right after I bought it and the rear disc tab was crooked. The paint sucked too. But now the bikes look much better with very few reports of broken Ellsworth bikes. I have heard he is tempermental at times but any more than Dave Turner or other major company owners? I doubt it!

    Jaybo

    Make up your mind dude!
    Last edited by plmrman; 02-02-2008 at 07:30 AM.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldHorse
    Fujirider1: I think, IMO, its a combo of several factors:
    1. Warranty issues - There are some people that are still pissed off over some warranty issues from quite a few years ago. Ellsworth used to offer "lifetime warranty" on their frames. And, some people managed to break their bikes and Ellsworth apparently did not, according to these people, honor the warranty. Or, at least they did not honor in a manner they expected - full replacement no questions asked. Now Ellsworth gives a two year manufacturers warranty meaning they warrant against defects but not abuse. I don't think there are a LOT of people with issues around this warranty thing, but the ones there are are pretty upset about it even after all this time. I've wondered what it would take to get them to move on (like a new bike?) but I doubt anything will work. They had a bad experience and they will always remember it that way. The threads in this forum are still around and from what I've read they feel like they have not only been cheated, but also lied to.
    2. Customer service - Some people complain about Ellsworth customer service and general responsiveness. I think I got this one figured out - people who buy or want to buy bikes with Ellsworth frames think they are or should be Ellsworth's customers. But, they are not. Ellsworth does not (at least not anymore) sell bikes or frames retail. Ellsworth's customers are bike shops and bike dealers. The people who buy bikes with Ellsworth frames are customers of their bike shop/dealer not Ellsworth. I think, IMO, some people in general don't like this situation, they have an image of the "boutique shop" selling handcrafted items with a special custom experience for them. Well, Ellsworth advertises "handcrafted bicycles made in the USA" but they are not hand-crafted by Tony himself. So, maybe this whole "big business" approach and philosophy rubs them the wrong way.
    3. Mud slinging - Its a facet of human nature. Go to any sporting event and you see rabid fans intent on disparaging the other side. It kind of goes like this: My bike is my identity. I'm great so my bike is great. We can't both be great, so you suck. Your bike is different. So your bike sucks too. TE made your bike so he also sucks.

    Anyway, this is what I have seen in reading various items in the forum.

    My disclaimer: I own two bikes with Ellsworth frames. I've owned other bikes too. I like my Ellsworth bikes and enjoy riding them. I ride a lot.

    OldHorse: I enjoyed your post. It was well written and thought out. But from a previous E owner ( of a 2000 Dare and 2002 Dare) I think some history is in order.

    In the early 2000's TE decided to sponsor North Shore freeriding, namely, Dangerous Dan and his freeriding troup. Their home shop is On Top Bike Shop in North Van, the only shop I patronize. It was the only shop to sell E up to a few years ago. I will tell you why:

    Dangerous Dan is no graceful rider. He is tough, rough and loves to push the envelope. A great person, and type of riding, to sell the Joker and extruded Dare. He was sponsored. A few Jokers cracked, and to my knowledge, he did not break a Dare. TE embraced hard core riding at the edge, and backed it up with a lifetime warranty. But guess what? TE is no hard core rider.

    Icons of people bought Jokers here on the Shore as they were cheaper than the Dare and well made. But they broke, mostly at the swingarm yoke. TE got the press from embracing the riding and sponsoring the riders, but failed to back up his word with products that could deliver. I correct myself: they did deliver, and were good bikes but were underengineered, hardly suprising. Most frames had to be warrantied and after 2 years it was not uncommon to see a Joker rider on his (or her) 2nd or third warrantied frame. Eventually, it turned out the style of riding TE sponsored was not cost effective and the market here on the Shore, and TE himself, dropped it. The Joker, in its last year, was on the E sight but never made. Very little reference is made to the Shore on the E sight regarding the Rogue or Dare now, and if so, no one of note rides them.

    Warranties are all good, but you have to make good on the promise. People get pissed off when a bike they bought in good faith breaks and has to be warrantied, and guess what: The shop owner gets the shaft.

    OldHorse: you speak of abuse? What do you think freeriders like Dangerous Dan do? Ride paved paths? TE knew EXACTLY what Shoreriding encompassed and what it meant. And TE fell short and did not deliver. Now, no one carries E anymore based on the bad experience. TE bad vibe is no accident. He had it coming.

    I saw the entire thing unfold before me at my favorite shop that was an exclusive E dealer and as a result, as much as I loved my Dares, let them go for another brand. I still ride that brand today.

    There are some out there that give TE a dirty name based on nothing, but in North Van, we all know the past and how E worked out. We do not lose any sleep over it though. We ride other bikes that are more suited to the environs: Banshee, Knolly, Brodie Rocky Mountain, Cove... I could go on. But the point is: for some of TE bad press, it is definitely earned.

    Nuff said.

  53. #53
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    although...

    i am doing my best to understand and accept the bitterness of this one "north shore" rider, i cant not to disagree with the notion that the "north shore" is the holly grail of mountain biking... that is the sense i am getting from blackfly's reasoning... what is "north shore" - is it freeriding, or is it only the exclusive creme of the freeriders who happen to live in the specific area? i also get a sense that blackfly is feeling a bit elitist because he lives there and rides "north shore"... as far as i am concerned, i couldnt care less about north shore... Ellsworth decided not to "support" north shore??? doubt it... what is Rogue designed for? did you test it before you preclaimed it was not a north shore bike?

    to me, the "north shore" and all freeriding style is the NASCAR or mountain biking, or snowboarding of the sport of skiing... nothing wrong with that, but the sport in which you can "roll one up" after or before the ride, makes me sick... just my opinion, nothing personal...

    for Ellsworth - building bikes is a business, and they are good at what they do. The evolved from a small - niche market - boutique company, in a larger and stronger player on the niche market... many a time they must have faced decisions pertaining sustainability on the market... if one that they made - to concentrate more on lighter, faster and more all around bikes - kept them in business - i'll support that... North shore is too small a community to exclusively cater to...

    lets leave NASCAR to NASCAR and WRC to WRC... we all have the choice, but there is no need to pi$$ on the brand or the owner because they decided not to support less than 1% of the market - the way this market is expecting it... just get over it and enjoy your FLY... will you? please?


    Quote Originally Posted by blackfly
    OldHorse: I enjoyed your post. It was well written and thought out. But from a previous E owner ( of a 2000 Dare and 2002 Dare) I think some history is in order.

    In the early 2000's TE decided to sponsor North Shore freeriding, namely, Dangerous Dan and his freeriding troup. Their home shop is On Top Bike Shop in North Van, the only shop I patronize. It was the only shop to sell E up to a few years ago. I will tell you why:

    Dangerous Dan is no graceful rider. He is tough, rough and loves to push the envelope. A great person, and type of riding, to sell the Joker and extruded Dare. He was sponsored. A few Jokers cracked, and to my knowledge, he did not break a Dare. TE embraced hard core riding at the edge, and backed it up with a lifetime warranty. But guess what? TE is no hard core rider.

    Icons of people bought Jokers here on the Shore as they were cheaper than the Dare and well made. But they broke, mostly at the swingarm yoke. TE got the press from embracing the riding and sponsoring the riders, but failed to back up his word with products that could deliver. I correct myself: they did deliver, and were good bikes but were underengineered, hardly suprising. Most frames had to be warrantied and after 2 years it was not uncommon to see a Joker rider on his (or her) 2nd or third warrantied frame. Eventually, it turned out the style of riding TE sponsored was not cost effective and the market here on the Shore, and TE himself, dropped it. The Joker, in its last year, was on the E sight but never made. Very little reference is made to the Shore on the E sight regarding the Rogue or Dare now, and if so, no one of note rides them.

    Warranties are all good, but you have to make good on the promise. People get pissed off when a bike they bought in good faith breaks and has to be warrantied, and guess what: The shop owner gets the shaft.

    OldHorse: you speak of abuse? What do you think freeriders like Dangerous Dan do? Ride paved paths? TE knew EXACTLY what Shoreriding encompassed and what it meant. And TE fell short and did not deliver. Now, no one carries E anymore based on the bad experience. TE bad vibe is no accident. He had it coming.

    I saw the entire thing unfold before me at my favorite shop that was an exclusive E dealer and as a result, as much as I loved my Dares, let them go for another brand. I still ride that brand today.

    There are some out there that give TE a dirty name based on nothing, but in North Van, we all know the past and how E worked out. We do not lose any sleep over it though. We ride other bikes that are more suited to the environs: Banshee, Knolly, Brodie Rocky Mountain, Cove... I could go on. But the point is: for some of TE bad press, it is definitely earned.

    Nuff said.

  54. #54
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    First of all, I actually DID try a Rogue. My riding buddy bought one thinking he was saving weight. Bike however was not up to expectation. Weight was saved, but at the cost of a front end that was more flexy than other models, a rear end that was not as plush as others (you could only get one way: ramped up or plush at the start, but not both. Inherent in a linear rate rear end).

    As far as elitist? Maybe. Kind of like someone living in Whistler their entire lives and skiing there not realizing something else is out there. But fact is most bike companies look to Shore style riding and environments to test bikes, calculate needs and strengths; after all, I do not see much advertising by companies with riders on bikes on flat boring level ground.

    You are right oskolo. Business is business. TE should of stayed out of the Shore market with the Dare and Joker especially. Sucessful business is knowing strengths and weaknesses. TE saw only a market share he thought he could own. But you have to back up such wants with products people can rely on. Now, granted: I am not going to debate the E lineup as it stands now. The Truth, Epi, Moment etc are all pedal efficient bikes that are well made and designed to be efficient. Good bikes? Yes. Good Shore bikes? No. But TE has wisened up and not marketed them as such.

    I am only pointing out to the original post as to why TE gets so much bad press. You don't go headlong into a market and expect to succeed if you are not willing to back up the bike and engineer it for the intended market. Had the Jokers not exhibited such yoke problems I am sure E would of done well. But too many pissed off riders and MANY warranty claims are not something TE calculated for, and it cost him. Now you do not get any lifetime warranty, all due to TE miscalculation.

    I have not ridden anywhere else yet. I can only base my thoughts on what experience and see, and having ridden 2 Dares, and loved them both, it only amazes me to see that TE was headed in the right direction only to screw it up. There was never issues with the extruded front end, but due to cost, TE got rid of it. You do not get rid of points of strength on a bike when there is MUCH competition out there.

    Rolling one up, as you call it, is systemic to most sports. Riding bikes, snowboards, skiis, watercraft.... your point on this is retarded. If you are trying to single out Shoreriding for pot use give your head a shake. Look to rap music if you want to single anything out. Otherwise the point is total useless. I myself DO NOT use pot, although I did genetically engineer it at univeristy for chemo patient need. So if you are trying to imply I am a pot user based on the fact I am a Shorerider then you could not be more wrong. I think my proper english lexicon and usage in my posts should prove this.

  55. #55
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    hmmm...

    Quote Originally Posted by blackfly
    First of all, I actually DID try a Rogue. My riding buddy bought one thinking he was saving weight. Bike however was not up to expectation. Weight was saved, but at the cost of a front end that was more flexy than other models, a rear end that was not as plush as others (you could only get one way: ramped up or plush at the start, but not both. Inherent in a linear rate rear end).
    bikes are like cars... you don't like Rogue, ten other guys love them... I don't like Porsche - it is Audi that turns my button, but ten other guys would kill to own Porsche... etc... the fact that you and as you say - your "north shore" buddies dont apparently like Rogue - doesn't mean much, except that you would not buy one... it doesn't mean that Rogue is not a good bike... north shore is one small drop in the sea of mountain biking trail systems... north shore riders made it sound more important than it really is...

    personally - i prefer operating just around my lactic acid treshold and cooking through corners, hammering up steep hills, bombing down descents and going back up on my own leg and lung power... your mileage may vary...



    As far as elitist? Maybe. Kind of like someone living in Whistler their entire lives and skiing there not realizing something else is out there. But fact is most bike companies look to Shore style riding and environments to test bikes, calculate needs and strengths; after all, I do not see much advertising by companies with riders on bikes on flat boring level ground.
    heh, i guess you only read "north shore" biking magazines... get real... biking is way beyond "north shore"... there are no boring trails, only incompetent riders...

    TE should of stayed out of the Shore market with the Dare and Joker especially.
    "should of"??????

    i am not an english major, by any stretch of imagination, it is actually my second language, as you can see, but I KNOW this is wrong...

    http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/couldof.html

    Please check your proper english lexicon please - and GOTCHA... you do use pot since your english is not perfect...


    Sucessful business is knowing strengths and weaknesses. TE saw only a market share he thought he could own. But you have to back up such wants with products people can rely on. Now, granted: I am not going to debate the E lineup as it stands now. The Truth, Epi, Moment etc are all pedal efficient bikes that are well made and designed to be efficient. Good bikes? Yes. Good Shore bikes? No. But TE has wisened up and not marketed them as such.
    man, TE couldn't care less about "north shore"... market wise - it is insignificant compared to the potential of lets say China... although, for all intents and purposes - we can stay on the American continent, and still be quite accurate with that statement... Anyone can build a 50 pounder that will not break and will roll DOWN the hill with authority... gimme a bike that will take me back to the top without internal combustion engine attached to it... that is my piece of cake...



    I have not ridden anywhere else yet.
    you should... despite popular belief - the Earth is round, not flat... there is life beyond "north shore".. a very good life and excellent trails as well... you should try them... beware, there are some steep hills out there too, and you may have to walk them to get to the top...


    Rolling one up, as you call it, is systemic to most sports. Riding bikes, snowboards, skiis, watercraft.... your point on this is retarded. If you are trying to single out Shoreriding for pot use give your head a shake. Look to rap music if you want to single anything out. Otherwise the point is total useless. I myself DO NOT use pot, although I did genetically engineer it at univeristy for chemo patient need. So if you are trying to imply I am a pot user based on the fact I am a Shorerider then you could not be more wrong. I think my proper english lexicon and usage in my posts should prove this.
    i think you know what my point is... i will rest my case here...

  56. #56
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    Ok, sidestep the "freeride" market segment and go back in time to Ellsworth's beginning in the mid/late 90s... their first distributor in canada was BigCountry and at that time I had an account with them and was dealing their lines (which included Chris King, Thomson, Ellsworth, Splinedrive, and others) and they dropped Ellsworth after a little more than 2 years of distribution. Why you ask? Here's the answer...

    Ellsworth had their lifetime warranty from the start... the problem was that they so often underbuilt frames to keep the weights low, that anytime an actual defect would come in the Truth or Moment or any other model they offered, even if it was being used for the intended application (The Truth has always been marketed as a lightweight XC frame), that would involve a redesign and reinforcement of the model, something always seemed to change in the compatibility of the parts.

    In the case of the truth, one of the first defect corrections involved a new and stronger shock mount on the seattube which was mounted lower down. Unfortunetly this meant the upper linkage no longer would be in the right spot when it came time to bolt the shock into place for the suspension to behave as designed for the whole ICT nonsense. So they had to change to a different size shock. Of cource this screwed over all the owners of frames who'd broken because Ellsworth wouldn't replace their old and incompatible shocks with new ones. This is back when the warranty said lifetime and didn't have any exclusions or limiters like they do today. To make matters worse, they never kept "spare" frame assemblies around to meet any possible warranty demand so owners didn't even have the option of getting a replacement "old" front triangle for example they could use until they could afford a new shock, or even to sell a complete frameset with to try and afford a new one. This later issue would become the rule of thumb with Ellsworth as the years progressed and many longtime mtbr member/ells-owners remember all the complaints about this over the past decade. Whenever they redesigned a sub-assembly of a frame, it was almost always incompatible with every other part of the older version and magically any inventory of that old version always seemed to instantly become unavailable the moment a new version became available.

    So people would try and upgrade to the new frame and find there was no simple way to do it, and this pissed off a great number of people who quickly moved to turner or ventena or titus or another boutique builder who didn't operate so unscrupulously. If ellsworth has been good for any one thing, its been making Ventena/Titus/Turner more successful than they otherwise would have been without ellsworth in the industry.

    You can see this in car makers too... If we hadn't had GM and Ford and Chrysler making crappy compact and sub-compact cars then Nissan and Toyota and Mazda might never have gotten to be such successful brands in north america. People eventually stop throwing more good money after bad and alter their buying habits.
    I don't post to generate business for myself or make like I'm better than sliced bread

  57. #57
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    Cool-blue Rhythm breaking stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by JIMBOLAYA
    Man, You are hard on your equipment! What kind of bikes did you break this year?
    What kind of riding do you do?

    In the past year, I tore a Bianchi SASS through the drop outs and snapped the seat tube on a custom Ventana (Ciclon). Bianchi warrantied the frame with little adeui with a new MUSS as the SASS was outta production. The other manufacture (hey, I'm trying to be nice in this forum) completely designed the front triangle of my frame with a thicker, stronger seat tube and some other tweaks to the tt and dt, all within 3 weeks, and all an no charge. It was pretty impressive considering that the frame is ball burnished and that alone takes an additional 3-5 days to turn around AND that the ball burnishing is done in Ramona, CA and this occured right smack in the midst of those wild fires last year.

    With Bianchi, all points of contact were thru the Bianchi rep. With the other manufacturer, you spoke directly with the owner/designer/manufacturer. In fact when I called to report the failure, his assistant (wink, wink, nod, nod) gave me his cell phone to call.

    As for my riding style, I ride about 5K a year with 1/2 of that on the roadie, and the rest spread between the SS and the dualie depending on the mood. I ride 90% just hilly single track, not many rocks or ledges (IL). And 10% in areas like CO, UT, AZ, and STL. Those rides, I back down from nuttin: Cowboy? Broken Arrow at Keystone? You bet. Drop zone? Not a chance in hell. Rode at Crankworx CO too. Posted a pretty good, unofficial time on the DH course but I'm not a racer or competitor, I was just chasing my 13yr old down the mtn. We also rode 2-3 days out in the rockies without lift assists, with my fav trail being Tippery Creek in Frasier.

  58. #58
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    This is so true, Tonys typical response would be "looks like the rider did this (insert problem) " But I will sell you another frame at a discount,(which would be wholesale. When I broke my Sub 22 at the headtube he told me that I must have pressed in the king headset wrong and that is why It cracked.

  59. #59
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    For what is worth...

    I sent in a Tech question through their website earlier today (albeit, I had to register) and within an hour I got a very detailed response signed by Tony himself. Don't know if it was really him but that Tech email turn around was phenomenal!! You usual have to wait days from most Tech/CS departments.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valhalla
    I sent in a Tech question through their website earlier today (albeit, I had to register) and within an hour I got a very detailed response signed by Tony himself. Don't know if it was really him but that Tech email turn around was phenomenal!! You usual have to wait days from most Tech/CS departments.
    I had the same experience and it was on a Saturday.

  61. #61
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    I had a problem with the shot peen scratching the seatpost. Took it to my Ellsworth dealer, they stripped it there and then, cleaned it out, and installed a brand new Thomson post. And yes the problem shouldn't of been there in the first place for such a high end frame but one bozzo in the production factory screwed up. They rectified it quickly and effeciently.

    The CS from my experience has been excellent, sure some ex owners grumble about past experiences which is fair enough, once bitten and all that. But you're find most people who make the same dull comments are the sickly 'homers', most of which have never owned an Ells but can't get over themselves and spend a perverse amount of time putting other manufacturers down - they also get a tittylip if anyone dares to dis Turner.
    "but I do not see anything in the world of suspension methods that is superior to the 4 Bar.

    Dave Turner


  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by shatbirdbicycle
    I think if you're paying as much as Ellsworth charges for a frame there shouldn't be any complaints and very little issue. Seems like they have a lot of complaints and a lot of issues.
    BAM. $2400US for a bicycle frame. Let's get real here people.

  63. #63
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    Sounds like a deal compared to a specialized S-works Epic Carbon, which is $4400 for the frame.


    Quote Originally Posted by asin
    BAM. $2400US for a bicycle frame. Let's get real here people.

  64. #64
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    broke 2 older Truths and had no problem

    CS was on it. Wait wasn't bad, but I am in SoCal

  65. #65
    Elitest thrill junkie
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    Quote Originally Posted by haaki
    CS was on it. Wait wasn't bad, but I am in SoCal
    How much did you have to pay?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  66. #66
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    paid my shop

    for assembly / disassembly and
    paid for shipping

    and the shop gave me a good deal

    all I think I paid towards Ellsworth was shipping

  67. #67
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    oh and years ago

    Ellsworth had a bike naming contest
    name the new bike and get one

    I didn't win
    the name he picked was "Moment"

    a couple years later he releases the "Epiphany"

    there's my frickin name

    now that ain't right

    but no I don't hate him

  68. #68
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    I have owned a significant number of high-end bikes....none compare with Ellsworth. Whatever the complaints registered by some with a bad experience in the past, I would dare say that those jokers need to take a moment to accept the truth. Things have definitely evolved since then and some of the rogue brand companies would do themselves a favor if they could have an epiphany of designing a bike of Ellsworth quality. In the last two years I have purchased 3 Moments, 3 Epiphanys and 1 Evolve (which is the sweetest 29er you'll ever throw a leg across). If you are in the market, do yourself a favor, ignore the negativity, spend the extra money and buy an Ellsworth. You will be sooooo glad you did!
    Last edited by preachinmachine; 10-03-2008 at 08:02 PM.

  69. #69
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    while I love my truth

    and agree with much of what you are saying

    why would anyone need to buy "3 Moments, 3 Epiphanys" in 2 years?

    adding that to the tally of one Evolve and we're looking at

    so that is 3 x $2500 for the moments and 3 x $2400 for the Epiphany's
    and $2200 on the Evolve (frames only)

    that's almost $17,000 in bike frames in 2 years

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by preachinmachine
    I have owned a significant number of high-end bikes....none compare with Ellsworth. Whatever the complaints registered by some with a bad experience in the past, I would dare say that those jokers need to take a moment to accept the truth. Things have definitely evolved since then and some of the rogue brand companies would do themselves a favor if they could have an epiphany of designing a bike of Ellsworth quality. In the last two years I have purchased 3 Moments, 3 Epiphanys and 1 Evolve (which is the sweetest 29er you'll ever throw a leg across). If you are in the market, do yourself a favor, ignore the negativity, spend the extra money and buy an Ellsworth. You will sooooo glad you did!
    Very nice, but if your ID didn't get in the way you could have had a GLIMPSE of the future....and I agree with you.

  71. #71
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    I have an Epi that I have owned for almost a year now, Everytime I ride it i have a huge smile on my face. The bike is amazing. I don't know Tony from a bar of soap, a situation I am sure is the same for nearly all of the people posting here. Go for a ride, thats what I am heading out to do right now.

  72. #72
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    haaki, oh haaki......it's not a need, it's a way of life. Now I know it seems over the top to some but actually that was the short list of bikes I've bought in the last two years, really. In that same timeframe my son has had a Titus Motolite, two Turner Spots, and now he is riding one of the Epiphanys (ol' Dad helps sponsor most of his also)....I love to ride but I also just love to buy different bikes, try them out, stare out them for long periods of time and then, most of the time I sell them. I keep some a few days, some a few weeks, some a few months. Rarely do I keep any for over a year. But the last two years I have fallen in love with the Big E. and I can't seem to want anything else now. The quality of the frame and suspension is par excellent and for me the geometry is spot on. In fact, I'll just say it right here, right now....THANK YOU TONY!!! Keep making these handmade in the USA beauties. I will keep paying the price for the best.

  73. #73
    MountainGoat aka OldGoat
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    preacher,
    I love my Epiphany also. Have you jumped onto a Mojo? I am on the SL now and LOVE it. Try one out and let me know what you think I have so much fun buying bikes like you and playing with them for a time and then on to something new.
    Vote with your feet.
    No bike is perfect!

  74. #74
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    the industry thanks you

    Quote Originally Posted by preachinmachine
    haaki, oh haaki......it's not a need, it's a way of life. Now I know it seems over the top to some but actually that was the short list of bikes I've bought in the last two years, really. In that same timeframe my son has had a Titus Motolite, two Turner Spots, and now he is riding one of the Epiphanys (ol' Dad helps sponsor most of his also)....I love to ride but I also just love to buy different bikes, try them out, stare out them for long periods of time and then, most of the time I sell them. I keep some a few days, some a few weeks, some a few months. Rarely do I keep any for over a year. But the last two years I have fallen in love with the Big E. and I can't seem to want anything else now. The quality of the frame and suspension is par excellent and for me the geometry is spot on. In fact, I'll just say it right here, right now....THANK YOU TONY!!! Keep making these handmade in the USA beauties. I will keep paying the price for the best.
    for your support

    I just don't have that kind of scracth and if I did I still wouldn't spend it as thus

  75. #75
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    A couple of years ago I got an Ellsworth coffee mug at Sea Otter as a perk to being an Ellsworth owner. I use it pretty much every day but I'm not too hard on it or anything. I don't jump it or take it off any drops bigger than 5-6 feet. Mostly easy morning get ready for work sips.

    Today I was having my morning cup-a-joe when I noticed a crack in the lower handle gusset where it meets the cup. "WHAT IS THAT!!!!" I barked in horror. I immediately called Ellsworth customer service to express my dismay. I talked to a "Buddy Holly" there who responded with a "Dude, its just a coffee cup". Not cool, you give me a free mug and then treat me like that?

    I looked at the bottom of the cup and saw that its made in China. Had I known that I would never have accepted it as a gift. The cup says "Ellsworth" on it which means I should be able to drink out of it like a slob and throw it around with reckless abandon... right? Nope. If you have an Ellsworth mug I urge you to sell it on Ebay right now before you suffer the same heartache I have.

    BOTTOM LINE: Bikes break, parts get bashed, forks leak. Welcome to mountain biking. If you don't want to replace parts there is always road riding. Get off your computer and pedal, maybe I won't ride by you walking uphill next week.
    Lean back, close your eyes, and hold on.

  76. #76
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    Ellsworths are amongst the lightest bikes in their respective catogories. Bikes can't be made light by magic, the only way to do it once all the fancy tubing and butting methods have been used is to remove more material. It would stand to reason to me that they are therefore not as strong as a heavier over engineered bike. If it is super strength you want I would not buy an ellsworth but if you want super performance that handled corectly is amongst the best out there buy one and you won't be dissapointed. i have an ellsworth for xc trails but the dh bike I bought was an Orange. I also have a specialized carbon hard tail. They are all brilliant for different reasons.

    I am currently thinking of buying a moment for big mountain riding such as the free raid classic, passportes du soleil and maybe even the megavalanche. I won't be jumping off any cliffs on it!!

    Incidently elsewhere on the forum someone called Haakki has a example of good customer service from Ells. Maybe it has improved. I hope so.

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