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  1. #1
    mutaullyassuredsuffering
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    Who actually races their Truth?

    It seems most Truth owners are using their bikes a trailbikes with the occasional longer race. I'm looking for folks who actually use their Truth as a full-on XC race bike. I don't ever see them at the XC races around here, and like many, I skipped over the Truth when I made my last few bike purchases due to the frame weight and relatively relaxed head angle.

    What I'm interested in is the bobbing of the suspension. Most trailbike riders like a bit of bob for climbing traction and comfort. However, I can ride a higher cog in a race with my suspension locked in stiff propedal versus open on my current bike, and that translates to alot of time over a couple hours.

    I've parking-lot demoed a Truth, and I find that with the FloatR I can get the suspenson moving pretty good in the big ring and especially sprinting. I'm trying to find out if the Truth with an RP23 makes sence. Does restricing the bob with a platform stiffen up the suspension significantly and make it just like the other stiff overdamped race suspensions out there.

    I would like a bike that I can set at a low level of damping (1 or 2 instead of 3 on the RP23) without bobbing all over the course.

    Any Input?
    Free will is an illusion, people will always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

  2. #2
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    i'm hardly a good racer, but i do team rides in 24hoa and a few other things.

    my truth (a '00) is stiff as can be with the propedal on full on an fox racing shox Float AVA RL withProPedal 2004. I can stand and mash on the big ring with nary a bob. The RL actually has lockout, but I never, ever use it. first, the PP is stiff enough that i don't need to, and second, ells says not to run locked out, as it stresses the frame not to have a little bit of bob (though as i said, i never feel it bobbing). my friends, who have newer truths with the floatR, look like they are bobbing more when they stand and mash. i don't know if it is the PP shock that i have, or the switch from bushings to bearings in the newer truths, but i suspect the shock.

    My Truth came with an AD 10. It was light, never leaked air and did most of what I wanted excpt for its lack of rebound damping. I was always getting the "boing" rebound after midsize to larger hits. This would unseat me and pop the rear tire off the ground. The adjustments had very little effect. when I switched to the AVA PP and the bike is mo betta. The rebound works. The PP was reported to make the Truth harsh but I have not found that to be the case at all. I run the AVA sleeve at max volume and 160 lbs. I weight 175ish.

  3. #3
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    You realize of course that by admitting you race your bike you have just voided your warranty.

    Ahhh. The pleasures of Ellsworth ownership.

    Read the small print. It may not matter to you but it sure does to TE.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackfly
    You realize of course that by admitting you race your bike you have just voided your warranty.

    Ahhh. The pleasures of Ellsworth ownership.

    Read the small print. It may not matter to you but it sure does to TE.
    I raced a 2001 truth xc last summer and cyclocross this winter. I am a clyde about 235. I broke the frame called Ellsworth. Sent them the frame and had my new one built 6 days later.

    I was very specific on the phone that I raced it. I was also specific that I was over 200 pounds.

    I agree there customer service could use so help but for me they did pretty well.

    The truth is only my 3rd mountain bike so I don't feel qualified when I say if I think its a great bike. I can say it works much better than my Gary Fisher Joshua and is seems more effecient than the Gary Fisher Sugar.

    Mike

  5. #5
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    This is a very good question...Keep it coming guys...

    I'm getting a new Truth also for my race bike but I would like to hear some more infos from the previous owner what they like and don't like best regarding the Truth...

    Thanks in advance...
    When trails gets tougher, Just stand up and deliver.

  6. #6
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    I raced my '04 truth last year. It did a lot better than me. I don't do much out of the saddle mashing, but really don't notice much bob when I do. I swapped bikes with one of my friend during a ride last year. He has an '03 or '04 s-works FSR (I think that is the model, it has 3 inches of travel) and I noticed a lot of bob on it. He was referring to my bike as a hard tail and said when he pushed on the pedal and it jumped forward. I have since softened the shock settings a little. I have the Fox AVA.
    With that said, I'm going to build an Enlightenment for this year. A very large number of the racers in my series were doing so with hardtails. The trails were fairly smooth.

  7. #7
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    Blackfly: who shoved that telephone pole up your a**? why do you even bother to read the ells forum?

    i've had six good years of riding on my truth. and that included a number of pretty good crashes. and yet the bike is still better than i am, something to aspire to.

    there may be better bikes out there for specific applications, but for me, the truth is the best.

    if the frame bites it in year seven, after thousands of mtb miles, i'll be happy to pay ells $800 for a crash replacement. and ride that frame for another seven years.

  8. #8
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    I think there's really no such thing as bob-free bike ever made not unless you are riding fully rigid bike...Even my previous VPP Blur has still a little bit of it as well as or the same for several Truths and Moments I saw or ride with on the trails.

    In this case, BOB is not the main argument here since it's all relative to how you smoothly pedal your bike or mash it...

    I would like to hear from previous owners how does it climb and ride down the hill specially on some technical sections...

    once again, Thanks a lot guys for your feedback...
    When trails gets tougher, Just stand up and deliver.

  9. #9
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    I raced my Truth in XC for about 3 years, moving from Sport to Expert. It's a great race bike, very predictable, no racing weaknesses. It's strongest areas are technical sustained climbing and almost all XC descending- it's great in both. It does reach it's limits in seriously tech terrain descending , such as 1/2-one mile streches of rocks, drops, and waterbars. I've moved to endurance racing now and it's a great bike for that as well. It lasted for 4 years of hard racing/trail riding and still works/rides fine, but has been moved to back-up status as I play with 29-er's, plus she was starting to feel "tired" on the trail. 4 years is fantastic IMO when you ride as much as I have.
    Mike

  10. #10
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    Thanks Mike, sounds like the Truth is the way to go...but now since there's a 29'er thing around you've mentioned :-?

    It leads to another question whether to go for the Truth or for the Evolve...

    That makes this thing even more complicated...
    When trails gets tougher, Just stand up and deliver.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by biotruth
    Blackfly: who shoved that telephone pole up your a**? why do you even bother to read the ells forum?

    i've had six good years of riding on my truth. and that included a number of pretty good crashes. and yet the bike is still better than i am, something to aspire to.

    there may be better bikes out there for specific applications, but for me, the truth is the best.

    if the frame bites it in year seven, after thousands of mtb miles, i'll be happy to pay ells $800 for a crash replacement. and ride that frame for another seven years.



  12. #12
    mutaullyassuredsuffering
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    Sprint

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullit_cn
    I think there's really no such thing as bob-free bike ever made not unless you are riding fully rigid bike...Even my previous VPP Blur has still a little bit of it as well as or the same for several Truths and Moments I saw or ride with on the trails.

    In this case, BOB is not the main argument here since it's all relative to how you smoothly pedal your bike or mash it...

    I would like to hear from previous owners how does it climb and ride down the hill specially on some technical sections...

    once again, Thanks a lot guys for your feedback...
    Everyone who owns one, admits the Truth is one of the best technical climbers and descenders out there. You are safe there... The question is how does it do as an all out XC racer?

    I stand up and sprint plenty. If you are a good enough pedaler to keep my FS bike from bobbing with no propedal in that situation, than hello Mr. Armstrong..... Pedal and weight activation of the suspension was the main point of this thread.... that why I started it.....

    On smooth terrain, sitting you can do pretty well, but when the going gets rough and steep, it's impossible to control weight bob in the lowest gears entirely with pedal stroke, as you are shifting your body around irregularly. Without some low-speed compression damping you are losing energy. I was looking for input from riders who use their propedal, and how that affected the suspension negatively.
    Free will is an illusion, people will always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

  13. #13
    mutaullyassuredsuffering
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    Reply

    Thanks for all the replies. I appriciate hearing about those who have been successful on the bike. That gives me some more confidence in this decision....
    Free will is an illusion, people will always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

  14. #14
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    OK, I'll try.
    I moved from a Cane Creek air shock with no platform damping to a first generation Fox with ProPedal. It made nothing but positive differences in how the bike felt, but that may be due to the fact that the Fox was just a better shock to begin with.
    Regarding bob- the thing about the Truth design is even when it is moving, you don't feel it- period. At one point, I was regularly riding with 4-5 other riders on Truths at a time. You could see their suspension moving in front of you, knew yours was moving too, and you could feel none of it. That's the beauty of it.

    Regarding the 29-er question- this is a very short answer, but I'm just having fun. I don't feel a 29er would be inherently better for XC racing and might in fact be worse depending on the race course, but while a 29-er is not always better, it is always different in ways that are always fun (but not always measurably better). Vague enough for you?
    Mike

  15. #15
    Silver bullet
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    I bought a Truth last year specifically for racing. As it turned out I only got to do 3 races because of a busy work travel schedule and did really well in those races. I only have a Moment and some past Gary Fisher bikes to campare to so it's tough to offer much info as far as comparing to other bikes. The Fishers I had in the past and still have the Moment as a fun bike. I will say that with the few I have to compare to the Truth is amazingly responsive in pedaling and handeling which makes it a very easy ride. As far as climbing I can say it sticks to the ground on loose and technical stuff really well. I remember doing climbs thinking the I was going to loose traction for sure but as long as I pedaled it keep climbing.
    The only problem I have is that the front seems to want to wash some in turns. I'm trying different stem lengths and tires to work that out. Hopefully I'll get it ironed out. If anyone out there has any suggestion I'd like to hear them.

    As far as the Truth vs 29er you may want to check this string that I found interesting.
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...59652#poststop

    Hope this helps.

  16. #16
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    Thanks CD

    anybody else? I'm asking 'coz I'm getting one too...
    When trails gets tougher, Just stand up and deliver.

  17. #17
    Love the Bike You Ride
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    Monique "Pua" Sawicki does...

    http://www.teammata.com/pua/index.php

    Recent results:

    2007 12 Hours of Temecula, 1st Overall (set male and female record for course)


    2006 Mountain Man Off Road Triathlon, Hawaii, 1st Place (set record)
    24 Hour Solo World Championships, Conyers, GA, 5th Place
    Kona Global 24 Hour, Granby CO, 1st Female
    Endurance 100, Park City, UT, 1st Female (set record), 3rd overall
    Norba National Marathon Championship, Sonoma, CA, 3rd Place
    Norba Marathon, Deer Valley, Utah, 4th Place
    Xterra, Alabama, 5th Place
    Xterra, Temecula, CA, 7th Place
    Spring Challenge, Idyllwild, CA, 2nd Place
    Wildflower Triathlon, Lake San Antonio, CA, 9th Place
    Sea Otter Classic, Monterey, CA, 16th Place
    Xterra Triathalon, Saipan, 3rd Place
    Vision Quest, 1st Place (set record)
    12 Hours of Temecula, 1st Place

    She frequents our shop and she is fast - try and catch her! Her race bike is a Truth and is available at The Path. She is also riding an Ellsworth Scant road bike for cross training.

    Not sure? Come demo one and see for yourself.

    Love The Bike You Ride...
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  18. #18
    Spanish Marathon Racer
    Reputation: Rapier's Avatar
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    Beautiful girl
    "Win gives you glory, continue to your last breath gives yo pride, surrender is not an option"
    "Like a beast freed from its chains, I pedal like If I had to scape from hell. As sweat falls from my face, my phantoms, my fears, are left behind until they are points at the horizon."

  19. #19
    mbabaracus
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullit_cn
    I think there's really no such thing as bob-free bike ever made not unless you are riding fully rigid bike...
    Not to argue but I have a 05 Specilized Epic and it is definately bob-free. In fact I would characterize it as a little harsh which is why I'm now in the market for an Ells or a Titus. For a purpose built race bike though, I have to admit the epic is pretty good and I am not a devotee of the big S.

    bm

  20. #20
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    I raced the Truth last year in XC racing only and did very well. I had a Scalpel before, when I got the Truth I shaved about a minute every 6 mile off of my time. this bike is superior to most bikes when pushed to the limits of preformance.

  21. #21
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    ..... sorry, a bit long....

    Quote Originally Posted by used2Bhard
    It seems most Truth owners are using their bikes a trailbikes with the occasional longer race. I'm looking for folks who actually use their Truth as a full-on XC race bike. I don't ever see them at the XC races around here, and like many, I skipped over the Truth when I made my last few bike purchases due to the frame weight and relatively relaxed head angle.

    What I'm interested in is the bobbing of the suspension. Most trailbike riders like a bit of bob for climbing traction and comfort. However, I can ride a higher cog in a race with my suspension locked in stiff propedal versus open on my current bike, and that translates to alot of time over a couple hours.

    I've parking-lot demoed a Truth, and I find that with the FloatR I can get the suspenson moving pretty good in the big ring and especially sprinting. I'm trying to find out if the Truth with an RP23 makes sence. Does restricing the bob with a platform stiffen up the suspension significantly and make it just like the other stiff overdamped race suspensions out there.

    I would like a bike that I can set at a low level of damping (1 or 2 instead of 3 on the RP23) without bobbing all over the course.

    Any Input?
    I built up a (used) '04 Truth about 6 months ago specifically for racing. For about 3 years, I used an Id for everything (trail-riding, XC racing, enduro racing). Although the Id was set up pretty light (under 27lbs), I found it to squat a bit on steep climbs when going to a standing position. This was more obvious when I went to "California Edition" geometry - a shorter rp3 shock, which I balanced out by winding the fork down to 100mm. I still have the Id, now set up heavier for trail riding (pike etc).

    Now on the truth, I notice no squatting or sinking feeling when climbing. The rear end seems to be a good platform to power up hills from. As others have said, if the bike bobs, you can't feel it. I don't feel like I am giving up anything to a hardtail on this bike, other than maybe 2 or 3 pounds. I was running it with an '04 Float R (with AVA, wound in to low volume), and now have a Pushed non-AVA Float R on it, which I haven't yet raced with yet. I'm pretty keen to try out the new shock (after all the raves on here about push), but, given that I haven't ridden the bike for a while, and I am around "average" weight, I doubt I'll be able to tell the difference (the shock is lighter though). The bike was great as it was, but I've probably got upgrade-itis, and wanted to get it under 24 pounds.

    When I was looking at potential race bikes (just before I got the truth), I looked at the other obvious XC FS bikes, such as the scalpel and the epic. Unlike you, I was of the opinion that the truth was a pretty light bike (and it has 100mm travel too). Is the '07 about 2400grams (frame/shock)? There's not many FS's lighter than that (yeah, yeah, there's Scott's, Nitrous, extralite's, but bit too exotic for me). My friend has an Anthem (not the top model, so heavier than my bike) which probably is a slighly lighter frame/shock than mine, but he has mentioned that he has been playing around with air in the rear shock to try and reduce the bob. I dunno if it's the design of the bikes, or the "bob" tolerance of the riders, but I don't have any complaints with my truth. Yeah, he does a lot of riding on his road bike (has a heckler too), but I get around on my hardtail commuter (slicks) throughout the working week, so it is not like I don't know how a rigid rear triangle feels like when putting max power down. Yeah, the truth might bob when violently stomping the pedals, but don't think I'm losing much there (if any). It might have to do with the years spent on the Id, which may have altered my pedalling style - it might be different for someone coming off a hardtail though. I also find myself in the saddle through almost anything, including the bumpier fast sections, something my friend has said he simply cannot do on his anthem ("ride it like a hardtail" he says).

    Another thing you need to consider is that the '04+ truths are now set up to be run with very low platform damping - they don't need much of it. The design previous to that (-'03) probably needed more platform to stop bobbing. So, keep it in mind, if you decide to get a new truth and slap a rp23 on it, especially if it is an after market shock. Get the "light" propedal shock (does fox still have that?). Otherwise, you will find the propedal a bit strong on all but the softest setting. On that note, if you are a mid-race rear shock tinkerer (and your race courses are appropriate for it), you will probaly find benefit flicking it to full propedal on longer smoother climbs if you are one to stand and hammer uphill at times. Does the '07 truth allow the rp3/rp23 to be mounted upright and forward? ie. the propedal lever at the top, and to the front. The air valve might get in the way of the rocker. If that's the case, you might have to mount it upside down or backwards, which makes the pro-pedal level hard to reach in the heat of battle. I certainly did benefit switching to full-propedal on my Id's RP3, but the benefit would be much reduced on a newer truth. If you air up the rear shock on a truth to somewhere near the "sweet spot" (mine works well from a bit over 90psi, up to nearly 110psi), it won't bob noticeably even with minimal pro-pedal - unless you are a hardtail rider, standing, and on pavement smooth climbs. The bob you noticed in the parking lot would very likely not be noticeable when riding offroad (and you aren't looking at the shock).

    So, to answer you questions....... put around the right amount of air in the shock (about 25% sag), and, yes, a rp3/23 on "firm" (3) propedal will barely move unless you are a really heavy stomper. Also, given the design of the suspension, riding at propedal 1 won't noticebly bob, unless you are always standing up or are super sensitive to bobbing.

    Having said all this, if you tend to get out of the saddle at some stage on every single climb, you should probably go a VPP or Epic.

    hope this helps

  22. #22
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    Ellsworth Frame Failures

    I have/had raced my Truth at a few 24hr and 12hr races until the main triangle split into two pieces. I had it for about 8 months when the 1st break occured right below the gusset on the seat tube. Ellsworth did replace it with my choice of a moment, id or another truth. I went with the id and that lastest 4 months and three races. This time the swingarm cracked at the pivot. I think it is time to move on to something more dependable since I do not have the same luxury as Pua to receive free frames. The bike road great but I have run into too many Ellsworth owners that have had frame failures.

  23. #23
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    And again. To think I am being harsh. I do not know this rider nor did I pay him to say this.

    I NEVER had a frame failure problem with E. I am only upset with the fact that E was the freeride frame to have, and it turned out that it was only a turd. Rear ends broke En Masse, and confidence was lost. Again, to have a freeride market consider you God only to lose it is pure stupidity. No Dares were ever reported broken or lost; then again, most could not afford it. The Joker was the bike of choice not by design but cost. You see them no more.

    I understand that quality counts, but at the cost of soul or the backbone of what you are riding then it matters. The Rogue is not, and never will be, a full DH bike. For anyone to race this is pure stupidity and to ask the paying E customer to finance his/her many race breakages. If one is going to enter a pure DH market, then at least make such a bike but from my friends purchase of a Rogue, and quick sale, I do not see this. The Foes 2:1 mono, of which I almost purchased, seems more fitting. You make, and sell, what is needed.

    I did not think E would be out of the XC market too, but if Screaming BLke Monkeys' post is true, then God help E.

    The Shore won't.

  24. #24
    sock puppet
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    hehe, monkey and his 2 posts...

    and his funny english....

    you guys are really bored... i guess boredom brings stupid ideas...

    blackfly, did you dust off your fly? are you going to take it to SHORE? i mean REALLY?


    Quote Originally Posted by blackfly
    And again. To think I am being harsh. I do not know this rider nor did I pay him to say this.

    I NEVER had a frame failure problem with E. I am only upset with the fact that E was the freeride frame to have, and it turned out that it was only a turd. Rear ends broke En Masse, and confidence was lost. Again, to have a freeride market consider you God only to lose it is pure stupidity. No Dares were ever reported broken or lost; then again, most could not afford it. The Joker was the bike of choice not by design but cost. You see them no more.

    I understand that quality counts, but at the cost of soul or the backbone of what you are riding then it matters. The Rogue is not, and never will be, a full DH bike. For anyone to race this is pure stupidity and to ask the paying E customer to finance his/her many race breakages. If one is going to enter a pure DH market, then at least make such a bike but from my friends purchase of a Rogue, and quick sale, I do not see this. The Foes 2:1 mono, of which I almost purchased, seems more fitting. You make, and sell, what is needed.

    I did not think E would be out of the XC market too, but if Screaming BLke Monkeys' post is true, then God help E.

    The Shore won't.

  25. #25
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    Here is the proof

    Here is the proof of the 1st failure, I haven't taken a photo of the 2nd yet as I discovered it today.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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