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  1. #1
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    Moment: is the geometry right? + frame weight

    Hi everybody, I'm really interested in buying this bike.

    A very big doubt I have is regarding the geometry claimed in the Ellsworth website, particularly it is declared a 67.8 HA for a 495mm A2C fork. If this is true, it would mean that with a 160mm fork (usually A2C is 545mm) you will slack your HA of roughly additional 2 degrees that looks a bit too much for me. Can you clarify? (on MBA it is reported a 67.8 HA with a Fox 36)

    Furthermore, does anybody have weighted a Medium frame with a DHXA air?

    Thx for your reply.
    Last edited by crips; 02-01-2008 at 12:25 AM.

  2. #2
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    No but I can weigh my large tomorrow if you need it.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjcools
    No but I can weigh my large tomorrow if you need it.
    Thanks, it would be better than nothing

  4. #4
    mda
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    My late 2005 medium moment weighs 6.27 without a shock. The DHX Air I fitted in 2006 weighed 1.07 including bolts and reducers.

  5. #5
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    The Path bike shop weighed a '07 Med w/dhx air and it was 7.71#s. The '08 is likey the same since there were no changes from '07 to '08. My '05 with a dhx coil was 8.35#s.
    The coil is a way better ride. Get a light wheelset to offset the extra bulk.

  6. #6
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    That HA has to be off. There are no 140mm shocks that I know of under 500 a2c. In order to balance the moment, you'd need at least 140mm.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharacterZero
    That HA has to be off. There are no 140mm shocks that I know of under 500 a2c. In order to balance the moment, you'd need at least 140mm.
    I agree with the fact that at least a 140mm fork is required, but how much would the HA be with a 160mm fork? 67,8 or slacker?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by crips
    I agree with the fact that at least a 140mm fork is required, but how much would the HA be with a 160mm fork? 67,8 or slacker?
    Assuming you choose a RS Lyrik (545mm A2C at full 160mm setting) for the moment, you can approximate about .5* in HA slackening with each 10mm of A2C height. That would putcher moment at about 65.3* HA from my calculations.

    Someone else with more knowledge of the moment should chime in, I really know nothing about it - I have found that HA slackening approximation to hold up pretty well in general.

    Best would be to have someone measure that HA with a fork on there for you.

  9. #9
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    Another approximation is 1" = 1, however probably I was not so clear in my post. I have noted a big difference between:
    1. Ellsworth website: HA=67,8 with a 495mm a2c fork
    2. MBA february review: HA=67,8 with a 545mm a2c fork (Fox 36 Van)
    So my question is: who is right?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by crips
    Another approximation is 1" = 1, however probably I was not so clear in my post. I have noted a big difference between:
    1. Ellsworth website: HA=67,8 with a 495mm a2c fork
    2. MBA february review: HA=67,8 with a 545mm a2c fork (Fox 36 Van)
    So my question is: who is right?
    Crips, the conversion between inches and mm:
    1 inch = 25.4 millimeters
    so, yes, 1"=~1*

    Just so you know. Most forks don't come with A2C in inches anyways.

    Besides, you are italian and totally disregard the silly "inch" system, right?

  11. #11
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    Spoke with the shop building my moment and they weighed it for me, 7.2 lbs for the large with the dhx air.

  12. #12
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    Building up an '06 Moment. Small frame, DHX Air, weighed with King HS upper and lower cups, thomson 410 setback post, salsa clamp, inner tube chainstay protector.

    8.2 lbs

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharacterZero
    Crips, the conversion between inches and mm:
    1 inch = 25.4 millimeters
    so, yes, 1"=~1*

    Just so you know. Most forks don't come with A2C in inches anyways.

    Besides, you are italian and totally disregard the silly "inch" system, right?
    Right!
    Anyway, they both give a rough idea (and they are both used), infact 10mm=0,5 means 1"=1,25 so there is only a difference of 1/4.

    Quote Originally Posted by CharacterZero
    Assuming you choose a RS Lyrik (545mm A2C at full 160mm setting) for the moment, you can approximate about .5* in HA slackening with each 10mm of A2C height. That would putcher moment at about 65.3* HA from my calculations.
    So, in your opinion, the HA reported in the Ellsworth website is the correct one!

  14. #14
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    My '07 Medium Moment w/ DHX-A (and seat collar) weighed 7.25 pound on my shop scale.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by crips
    So, in your opinion, the HA reported in the Ellsworth website is the correct one!
    Nope, there is no way that they are spec'ing Moments with 495mm forks, which is what the site says.
    Show me a 140mm fork that is 495mm or under.

  16. #16
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    07 Large Moment frame weight

    8.65 lbs for my 07 large.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  17. #17
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    noone can answer the angle question??!!

    seriously, it is an AM bike, I would consider the HA a much bigger issue than a pound on the frame!

  18. #18
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    I guess I am a liar cause I checked the weight again and it is 7.6lbs not 7.2.

    I have been telling people it was 7.2lbs and now i am devistated. i will never speak up again.
    I like to ride Bikes. This might be turning into an obsession, not sure?

    www.alpine.cc

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharacterZero
    noone can answer the angle question??!!

    seriously, it is an AM bike, I would consider the HA a much bigger issue than a pound on the frame!
    I'm willing to bet that Ellsworth can, that is if you can get a hold of them. Try an email or phone call.

    I would be shocked if the HA on the website was correct. 67.8 with a 545 AC height sounds right and really fits the Moment's intended market and use. I honestly don't think TE would put such a slack HA on the Moment without gusseting the head tube like crazy and getting ready for a lot of warranty issues. I don't think the Rogue even has that slack of a HA.

  20. #20
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    Light wieght is great and all but I don't mind a frame that weighs 8 #'s if it means it will handle the abuse. If I really cared about light wieght I'd buy a EPI!

  21. #21
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    I would assume that the figures stated on the MTBA article are correct - 67.8 with Fox 36.

    My 07 large feels spot on with that setup - it certainly isn't slacker than it should be. Whatever the numbers end up being you should feel confident fitting any of the current 160 travel forks for the type of riding the Moment is designed for.

    My large 07 with 08 DHXA = 7.7lb - Having recently tried it with a DHXC I would get the coil.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinch
    I'm willing to bet that Ellsworth can, that is if you can get a hold of them. Try an email or phone call.
    I sent an email to both Ellsworth and MBA (ask RC), but no one replyed. Anyway I am glad to know you think that 67.8 HA will be with a 160mm forks

    If someone with such a fork might measure the HA I think that would be the final confirmation.

  23. #23
    mda
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    The Ellsworth website gives a static fork length of 20.5"(495mm). However, 20.5" is actually 520.7mm which is RS Pike territory.

    20.5"(520.7mm) makes more sense than 495mm. A Fox 36 would then slacken the HA from 67.8 to about 66.6.

    I agree, it would be great to get a definitive answer from Ellsworth on this head angle issue. Not just for the 2008 moment frames but also the previous versions to assist those owners looking to change their forks, or just have a better understanding of what HA they're currently running.

    I think the only thing we can be fairly certain about is that the original moments had a HA of 69 with a 125mm fork / 495mm axle to crown. The 2006 brochure is where it appeared to change to a 67.8 HA, but still apparently running a 125mm fork. This is where the confusion begins.

    I don't think we should assume that it's currently 67.8 with a Fox 36 / 545mm axle to crown as this is clearly not what the website is stating.

  24. #24
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    BB height as well

    I emailed Ellsworth about two months ago on this very topic with no reply. I would be interested in not only the HA but also the BB height. My concern is it was originally designed around a shorter fork (but in a time where 69 degrees was par for the course on a trail bike) and the natural progression in the AC on the forks slackened the head angle concurrently to match the demand for the slacker angles. Having said this, allowing the longer forks to change the head angle without adjusting other aspects of the geometry could lead to a higher than desired BB. Could be off here though?

    Does anyone know what the BB height would be as well with a 545mm fork on it?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mda
    The Ellsworth website gives a static fork length of 20.5"(495mm). However, 20.5" is actually 520.7mm which is RS Pike territory.
    Good spot! I focused on the mm measurement, probably 520.7 mm make more sense (as far as I know a Pike has 517mm a2c)

  26. #26
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    I think it's just a typo on the website. The fork length in inches is correct, just the mm is incorrect. For example the website states the Epiphany has a recommended static fork length of 19.5"(495mm) and the Moment 20.5"(495mm). So the Moment is geared up for an extra inch of fork than the Epiphany.

  27. #27
    mda
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    That makes sense. I'm on the other side of the pond so maybe someone else could volunteer to phone Ells and get that corrected?

    And while you're on the phone to them, maybe they would be able to confirm that with eg a Fox 36, the moment's HA is about 66.6. Looking at jjcools "My first Ells" pics, that would appear to be about right - HA certainly looks slack.

  28. #28
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    I reckon the stated 67.8 head angle is based around a 150mm fork.

    Looking at the Yeti 575, that gives head angles for both 140 and 160 mm forks as 68.5 and 66.9 respectively. If you were to put a 150 fork on, then theoretically that would be mid-way between 68.5 and 66.9 which would give you a head angle of 67.7. Thats 0.1 of a degree different to the Moment.

    Here's the link to the 575 geometry if you're interested:

    http://www.yeticycles.com/Bikes/Bikes575.cfm#Geo

  29. #29
    mda
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    I think whoever updates the Ells website underestimates our appetite for this kind of information. Geometry based on different forks is the way forward.
    Last edited by mda; 02-12-2008 at 01:12 AM.

  30. #30
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    So I am a bit shocked that this is somehow still an unknown.

    What other company that produces botique and EXPENSIVE bikes provides so little information and is so hard to get a hold of to clarify something like this for some of its most enthusiastic owners?

  31. #31
    mda
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    Have you been to the Cove website recently? Last time I checked, they were still in 2006. I think it's deliberate.

  32. #32
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    The funny thing about that is there are a select few threads (N.B: they don't even have their own forum) and a retailer or two that have all the specs on the lineup - where they fell off, the passionate stepped up.
    I don't see that has happened here, else we would have been pointed to it.

    Deliberate - WHY? In an industry that has an annual cycle and pushes great innovation at each turn, why delay in getting specs out - it will only feed the consumer whoring!

  33. #33
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    Bump

    Sorry, had to do it. I really want an answer to this one. Did anyone reach out to Ellsworth?

  34. #34
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    Just measured my front end.

    Quote Originally Posted by smithrider
    Sorry, had to do it. I really want an answer to this one. Did anyone reach out to Ellsworth?
    It sounds a little kinky

    The fork is a lirik. with a 545mm a/c.

    The head angle is 65.7 deg?!

    the problem is that the seat angle needs to become 70.2 deg?! and it does not feel like

    that.

    You nkow what... the head angle does'nt feel like the numbers?!

    Hope i got it corect

    The local dealer did'nt have an answer eather.

    Benny

  35. #35
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    The website has just been updated! Must have been watching this thread or read one of the emails!

  36. #36
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    Urrah!

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by crips
    Urrah!
    So 67.8* HA with a 520mm fork? So, thinking designed around a 140mm?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharacterZero
    So 67.8* HA with a 520mm fork? So, thinking designed around a 140mm?
    You might be right about the Pike height but forks do vary. A DT Swiss 150mm fork (6 inches) for example is 525mm. The Yeti website states a fork length of 511 for 140mm and 545 for 160mm. And the old Pace RC41 was 150mm travel with a length of 509mm.

    Anyway, it's about the ride not about the numbers

  39. #39
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    This picture should stop any further discussion on the Moment HA with a Fox 36 (66.2)


  40. #40
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    Great picture, thanks! That leads me to two additional questions. 1) What is the BB height on that rig? I think mine was around 14.5 inches with the old school 36 on it and 2.35 Nevagals. 2) If the bottom bracket is indeed around 14.5 inches or above, do you think Ellsworth will be or should be fixing the geometry on this bike to get the bottom bracket down a bit (13.8 inches would be ideal) and steepen the H/A to around 67 to 67.5 degrees.

    I think Ellsworth has neglected the geometry and it is not a good match with the ubiquitous 545mm forks. Thoughts?

  41. #41
    mda
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    I am having no problem running a 545mm fork. If you have problems climbing with a slack HA, get one with a travel adjuster. The 36 TALAS suits the Moment really well.

    Nice one crips.

  42. #42
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    I've got a Moment and it is a sweet ride. I've done some pretty technical uphills and I think it's a good climber, downhill it is jaw dropping. Based on that the geometry as spot on so why worry?

  43. #43
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    The H/A was less of an issue in my opinion. The high bottom bracket was an issue and couldn't be cured by an adjustable travel fork because I felt the height on the descents more than the ascents. BB height, like all things, has tradeoffs. What height is better is purely based on opinion. My opinion happens to be that a bike in the aggressive AM category should have a lower BB height to create the feeling of sitting more in the bike then on it making the it more stable/flick-able as well as increasing its corning ability. Higher BB's help climbing by reducing pedal strikes but I have never really been concerned about striking my pedals. Again, purely personal opinion!

  44. #44
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    Agreed, two years on mine so I think I have the basis for a valid opinion.
    "but I do not see anything in the world of suspension methods that is superior to the 4 Bar.

    Dave Turner


  45. #45
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    Which headset with the fork?

    [QUOTE=crips]This picture should stop any further discussion on the Moment HA with a Fox 36 (66.2)

    And how high is it?

    benny

  46. #46
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    I had a moment (one of the first ones off the line) for a year and a half and again, my thoughts are purely an opinion and by no means am I saying its a bad bike. I am also not worried as there are other options out there that better fit the bill of what I am looking for. All I am merely suggesting is that I would find it to be a pretty darn hard proposition for me to keep my wallet closed if they did indeed lower the bike a bit as it has so many other good attributes.

    I am not just looking at numbers of a bike I have never ridden and offering a suggestion. I rode my Moment quite a bit and enjoyed it. In reality though, numbers do ultimately explain the feel of the bike save a few intangibles here and there. Again, just an opinion. And my only concern is that it is slated to snow eight or so inches on Denver's Front Range tomorrow. Cheers!

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