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  1. #1
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    Moment Frame - Swarf/Damaged Seat Post/Reaming frame etc

    Does anyone have any experience of swarf/metal filings inside the seat tube of their Moment, or their seat tube being badly-finished on the inside, with the result of having the sh*t scratched out of their shiny new seat post, like I have had? If so, does anyone have any tips for how to sort this out?

    Thoughts much appreciated...

    Thanks guys

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by percytakacs
    Does anyone have any experience of swarf/metal filings inside the seat tube of their Moment, or their seat tube being badly-finished on the inside, with the result of having the sh*t scratched out of their shiny new seat post, like I have had? If so, does anyone have any tips for how to sort this out?

    Thoughts much appreciated...

    Thanks guys
    If you have the old style bead blasted finish, the tiny shot used in the finishing process gets stuck in the frame, then works itself loose later to cause problems. I had one of these buggers scratch my seatpost and another ruined the bottom bracket threads which needed to be chased with a tap. Since aluminum doesn't rust, I think the best remedy would be to wash the inside of the tubes with some detergent and water, then rinse them out thoroughly.

    The old frames should have come with a warning sticker. If you have a smooth ano bike, then I don't know what would be causing the problem. Good luck getting it sorted out.
    {Principal Skinner} Hmm. Whoever did this is in very deep trouble.
    {Martin} And a sloppy speller too. The preferred spelling of 'wiener' is w - i - e - n - e - r, although 'e - i' is an acceptable ethnic variant.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by percytakacs
    Does anyone have any experience of swarf/metal filings inside the seat tube of their Moment, or their seat tube being badly-finished on the inside, with the result of having the sh*t scratched out of their shiny new seat post, like I have had? If so, does anyone have any tips for how to sort this out?

    Thoughts much appreciated...

    Thanks guys
    Get to a local bike shop and ask them to ream the seat tube for you. That should sort it out.

  4. #4
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    Moment Frame - Swarf/Damaged Seat Post

    I had the same problem with mine and what i was advised to do my the shop i bought the bike from was obviously send the frame back and they would sort it out which there was no way iwas going to do cos i couldn't wait to get out on it or sort it out myself like this-
    A few inches down the seat tube there is a hole coming from the top tube you need to fill this hole in and the way to do it is to use some expanding foam in it.So put some expanding foam in the hole it's a bit fiddly but what i did was make a longer pipe out of fish tank tubing and then put some just in the hole so that when it expanded it would come back out of the hole.When it set i cleaned it up and got some really fine wet and dry and cleaned the seat tube up with that and then i put a powerfull hose down the tube justo try and get rid of any crap that was still in there and that seemed to work fine for me.
    So basically what you need to do is block the hole that comes from the top tube joining to the seat tube as this is where the shot peene is coming from.
    Now there may be other ways of sorting this out before anyone shoots me down but that is how i sorted mine and one of my friends Moments out.
    Good luck

  5. #5
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    I can relate to your problem. I bought the seatpost brand new for this frame. Looks great right?

    moment SP.jpg

    moment Seatpost.jpg

  6. #6
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    Same thing happened to my Thomson post and eventully got stuck. I got it out but it was ruined at that point. Ellsworth Quality hard at work.

  7. #7
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    Same **** on my Rogue, even worst than yours, I suffered like hell to take it out, then I cut the seat post since I don't do XC, the saddle is always down, I just left 12 cm of seat post inside. Such bad finishing is a shame.

  8. #8
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    Same thing on my Moment. Think I will head to the LBS this weekend and see if they can clean it up a little.

  9. #9
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    It is funny to think you lambaste me at every opportunity, but your own post clearly provides evidence that you are not happy with the quality, as I. You attack me at every opportunity, yet your own posts show you to be unhappy and unsatisfied. Imagine me: Full Ellsworth faithful, one of the first on the Shore with a Dare (back when the frames were all tube welded) and then to find what the company has done now with the FR/DH segment. You call me outlandish for my tirades???????????

    All matters, large or small, matter. If a frame is too weak; or, in your case, the seatpost reaming is bad, it all matters. We are not talking about a cheap frame here. We do not expect FR frames to have flex, seatpost tubes to destroy seatpost finishes or to have frames break due to lack of engineering. That is my point. I find it funny you think I am off base given my factual attacks yet you have factual attacks of your own.

    But even Jesus forgave hippocrites.

  10. #10
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    ahhh...what?

  11. #11
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    That is material from the peening process

    As far as I know this is an issue on almost all Moments, and not on any other Ellsworth. The issue is small metal balls that are blasted at the frame. Trust me when I say that you cannot solve this problem with reaming or cleaning. The foaming technique works great. We have been sealing the seat tube from the other frame tubes on every Moment that we build, and this seems to be a completely efective solution. It is a bit time consuming but well worth the effort. Just shoot a little carpenters foam in the hole where the top tube meets the seat tube, then at the down tube. Let dry for 24 hours then hone and chase. No more balls, no more stuck and scratched post, no more messed up BB threads. Yes I have had to chase some BBs after these balls were dragged across the threads upon BB removal.

  12. #12
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    Sorry but I faced that same issue on my Rogue...

  13. #13
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    I had the same shot peen issue on my 06 Moment. All you have to do is strip the frame down and swish some mineral spirits through the frame several times and it should be all gone. My new seat post has no sratches on it every since. The problem is not a quality issue with the frame its a poor cleaning after the shot peen process.

  14. #14
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    Took a closer look at the frame today, it looks like the weld for the top tube actually has full penatration into the seat tube, creating a little ridge in the tube. I did see the blasting medium you guys were talking about though. Anyone else see this?

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    I see.

    Do you have any idea how time consuming and labourious it is to COMPLETELY strip a frame to correct a problem that should of never of been in the first place? Be my guest if you want- this is NOT something I would expect in a HIGH end frame. Kind of like the banks: you pay to actually get service. I would be livid if I had to completely strip my frame in order to fix a problem that should of never been. In fact, I think for such an issue a voucher from Ellsworth for about $200 should cover it to compensate ANYONE who has to completely strip a frame for an obvious manufacturing error. Sorry, but I cannot see it any other way.

    I have yet to see a Foes stripped for the very same issue. Or Turner, Santa Cruz, Banshee, Orange.............
    Last edited by blackfly; 01-08-2007 at 07:21 PM. Reason: Typo

  16. #16
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    Change the record blackfly, you shot yourself in the foot along time ago - which means no one listens or values your opinion anymore. You don't own an Ells now so get over it and get over yourself. Why do you feel the need to post here anyway? I had the same problem on my Moment, the shop sorted it no questions. I've also had problems with my Turner. I also have mates that have had problems with Foes.

    That said, you do make me laugh though (in a laugh at you way).

    It's just sad that Ellsworth eats you up inside so much. Your constant *****ing on here will make no difference to what people want to ride. I had a Foes, didn't get on with it, great bike but just not for me, end of.

    Sad, really sad.

    Now run along little boy and enjoy your Foes.
    "but I do not see anything in the world of suspension methods that is superior to the 4 Bar.

    Dave Turner


  17. #17
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    Yesssssss, where is my voucher ??????

    By the way my friend's VP free broke into two after only eight months, be my guest, how much should he claimed????

    One thing for sure, with you we are never disappointed...

  18. #18
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    I've learned that this seatpost issue is not Ellsworth specific, and is more than likely not caused by the beads from shot peening. Someone mentioned this above, but I was informed by my LBS that sometimes welds penetrate the seat tube and leave very small burrs. The seat tube should be reamed out to eliminate them, but nothing is ever perfect.

    My LBS has tools to correct this, maybe yours does too. They told me they'll see this same thing happen on maybe 10 frames per year, and none of them are Ellsworths.

    I do have an interesting case I just discovered last week that may involve some beads. My LBS is working on it and I'm not going to post until I have a resolution. But basically, if you think your seat post is bad.......

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackfly
    It is funny to think you lambaste me at every opportunity, but your own post clearly provides evidence that you are not happy with the quality, as I. You attack me at every opportunity, yet your own posts show you to be unhappy and unsatisfied. Imagine me: Full Ellsworth faithful, one of the first on the Shore with a Dare (back when the frames were all tube welded) and then to find what the company has done now with the FR/DH segment. You call me outlandish for my tirades???????????

    All matters, large or small, matter. If a frame is too weak; or, in your case, the seatpost reaming is bad, it all matters. We are not talking about a cheap frame here. We do not expect FR frames to have flex, seatpost tubes to destroy seatpost finishes or to have frames break due to lack of engineering. That is my point. I find it funny you think I am off base given my factual attacks yet you have factual attacks of your own.

    But even Jesus forgave hippocrites.
    No- we call you a troll...
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by UP Dude
    I've learned that this seatpost issue is not Ellsworth specific, and is more than likely not caused by the beads from shot peening. Someone mentioned this above, but I was informed by my LBS that sometimes welds penetrate the seat tube and leave very small burrs. The seat tube should be reamed out to eliminate them, but nothing is ever perfect.

    My LBS has tools to correct this, maybe yours does too. They told me they'll see this same thing happen on maybe 10 frames per year, and none of them are Ellsworths.

    I do have an interesting case I just discovered last week that may involve some beads. My LBS is working on it and I'm not going to post until I have a resolution. But basically, if you think your seat post is bad.......
    There are plenty of times where a bike may have some imperfection in the seat tube, and it needs a ream or a hone.

    The thing with the Moment is diferent. We have reamed and reamed and Honed and Honed. Everyhting will be fine, then later more little metal balls work their way out of the other tubes and cause scratches on the post and cause it to stick.

    Ellsworth acknowledges the problem.

    We sell over 100 Ellsworth bikes per year, and we have only seen this problem on the Moment. Ellsworth slightly changed the finish on all of the bikes in 07 partly to help insure that this problem would go away.

    Even with all of the heart ache. With unhappy customers at first, then lots of extra work on each build after we found a solution, the Moment is one of the most impressive bikes I have ever seen.

  21. #21
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    It is annoying

    Quote Originally Posted by blackfly
    I see.

    Do you have any idea how time consuming and labourious it is to COMPLETELY strip a frame to correct a problem that should of never of been in the first place? Be my guest if you want- this is NOT something I would expect in a HIGH end frame. Kind of like the banks: you pay to actually get service. I would be livid if I had to completely strip my frame in order to fix a problem that should of never been. In fact, I think for such an issue a voucher from Ellsworth for about $200 should cover it to compensate ANYONE who has to completely strip a frame for an obvious manufacturing error. Sorry, but I cannot see it any other way.

    I have yet to see a Foes stripped for the very same issue. Or Turner, Santa Cruz, Banshee, Orange.............
    It sucks having to work out the kinks on a bike that costs a lot of money.

    I have seen embarassing issues on most of the bike brands that you mentioned. Turner is pretty close to beyond reproach on these kind of issues, but not no one is perfect. Don't even get me started on Santa Cruz.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by thephat
    There are plenty of times where a bike may have some imperfection in the seat tube, and it needs a ream or a hone.

    The thing with the Moment is diferent. We have reamed and reamed and Honed and Honed. Everyhting will be fine, then later more little metal balls work their way out of the other tubes and cause scratches on the post and cause it to stick.

    Ellsworth acknowledges the problem.

    Do you know of any actions taken to reimburse customers/dealers for the trouble this has caused?

  23. #23
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    Don't call me boy.

    I find it hard to believe that any Foes owner would have to completely disassemble a frame to clean out the insides from shot peening since the frames are painted. Only a few FXR's were anodized at extra expense, and to my knowledge this was not an issue. I would be livid to have to strip my entire frame, at my time and expense, to fix an issue (not to mention the down time) that should of never been. Simply put, this is simple quality control that escaped the firm due to lack of care or understanding. How one could not hear balls rolling around inside a frame and then ship it is beyond me, but hey, if fools build it, fools will buy it.

    Just for your info, bro, I was riding an Ellsworth when they were trying to make their name known, probably before you were. I found the quality to be superb, and at the time there was no bike better made, with better materials, then my 1999/2000 tube welded Dares (I owned both). Both had Easton tubing, flawless welds and, impossibly, dead arrow straight frames. I had Ellsworth at its pinnicle. My 2001 Dare, the first of the extruded frames, was better, but at the expense of a non-replaceable hanger. I was so faithful that I disregarded this fact and bought it anyway. It is the only hanger I have ever broken on a less than stellar crash. But that was the ****. Now Ellsworth cares only about numbers. Easy money. Frames easy to make, weld, sell and market. No R+D. No commitment to the real FR/DH market. The facts speak for themselves. The Chaos, to my knowing, was never made.

    You fail to understand that I am not some dumb**** Ellsworth hater for no know reason. I promoted this company on the Shore at a time no one ever HEARD of Ellsworth, and believe me, the bikes are on my favorites list. It kills me to know the company was heading in the right direction, but for reasons obvious only to the pocket, they went the other way.

    Heart and soul.

    If you think this does not matter to you, the paying customer, then fine. Someone has to prove PT. Barnum right.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackfly
    Don't call me boy.

    I find it hard to believe that any Foes owner would have to completely disassemble a frame to clean out the insides from shot peening since the frames are painted. Only a few FXR's were anodized at extra expense, and to my knowledge this was not an issue. I would be livid to have to strip my entire frame, at my time and expense, to fix an issue (not to mention the down time) that should of never been. Simply put, this is simple quality control that escaped the firm due to lack of care or understanding. How one could not hear balls rolling around inside a frame and then ship it is beyond me, but hey, if fools build it, fools will buy it.

    Just for your info, bro, I was riding an Ellsworth when they were trying to make their name known, probably before you were. I found the quality to be superb, and at the time there was no bike better made, with better materials, then my 1999/2000 tube welded Dares (I owned both). Both had Easton tubing, flawless welds and, impossibly, dead arrow straight frames. I had Ellsworth at its pinnicle. My 2001 Dare, the first of the extruded frames, was better, but at the expense of a non-replaceable hanger. I was so faithful that I disregarded this fact and bought it anyway. It is the only hanger I have ever broken on a less than stellar crash. But that was the ****. Now Ellsworth cares only about numbers. Easy money. Frames easy to make, weld, sell and market. No R+D. No commitment to the real FR/DH market. The facts speak for themselves. The Chaos, to my knowing, was never made.

    You fail to understand that I am not some dumb**** Ellsworth hater for no know reason. I promoted this company on the Shore at a time no one ever HEARD of Ellsworth, and believe me, the bikes are on my favorites list. It kills me to know the company was heading in the right direction, but for reasons obvious only to the pocket, they went the other way.

    Heart and soul.

    If you think this does not matter to you, the paying customer, then fine. Someone has to prove PT. Barnum right.
    LOL you crack me up! For sheer entertainment there is no one like blackfly! LOL
    I rode a lot of Ellsworth proto's back in the day. So no you weren't riding them before me. But move along now boy. Let it go boy, let it go!

    Right, I'm off to the Shore for some Rad moves.

    LOL
    "but I do not see anything in the world of suspension methods that is superior to the 4 Bar.

    Dave Turner


  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackfly
    It kills me to know the company was heading in the right direction, but for reasons obvious only to the pocket, they went the other way.
    +1...it was expected with the move to their factory

    All of my retail suppliers, when they sourced their production to a 3'rd party were able to spec their products, have impact on quality control, and the factories, having the volume to max their production, were able to maintain lower costs, have ISO9000 quality control, and invested the capital to keep their factories up to date.

    Once any of them moved into their own facilities, cost control became an issue and quality was the first to suffer. It became a Catch 22 situation because poor quality led to customer returns, fewer orders, lower sales...which led to more cost cutting, eventually the raw materials began to be comprimised. One of my alunimum product suppliers began use thinner sheeting, eventually we were able to dent the product by poking it with a finger. He was delisted and our entire inventory was returned...went bankrupt shortly after.

    Our Ellwsworth dealer hasn't had a new frame in stock since 2005 and will only custom order if prepaid

  26. #26
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    Acutally, I believe all this SP damage is happening on 2005-older frames- in other words, pre-in house production. The move to in-house production, supposedly, was done specifically because of QC issues with the welders and finishers.
    Has anybody seen this specific damage on any smooth-ano frames?
    Mike

  27. #27
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    I understand that the old factory produced Santa Cruz and Ventanna as well as some other "boutique" frames...QC was high, not so much for the end-user customer, but for the client...they needed to hang on to the accounts

    My Id is shot peened ano and the finish was perfect (except that its beginning to rub off because of the housing)...my wife's Blur is very similar and may have come from the same factory.

    But again, we haven't seen any of the new Ellsworths in Toronto so its hard to compare

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  28. #28
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    Well...

    Quote Originally Posted by UP Dude
    Do you know of any actions taken to reimburse customers/dealers for the trouble this has caused?
    In a couple of cases where reall damage has been caused, they supplied replacement parts.

    No compensation for the sealing yet, but we are working on that.

    Soon all of the origional Moments will be sold through and this will be a thing of the past.

    We have not seen this on any of the other frames that have the same finish as the Moment, That is to say even the older (rougher textured finish) pre in house Truths, Ids, and Dares seem to be free of this issue. It is only the Moments.

    You do not have to srip the bike to seal it. You just have to pull the seatpost and BB.

    It is a hassle, but the Moment is as good bike as I have ridden. The versatility of the Moment blows me away.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by thephat
    Soon all of the origional Moments will be sold through and this will be a thing of the past.
    are you saying that they're knowingly selling defective frames?

    Jeez...and for $3,200 CAD...I think I'll stick with my Id but now know why my Ellsworth guy now stocks Sanata Cruz, Turner, Foes, etc.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by JM01
    are you saying that they're knowingly selling defective frames?

    Jeez...and for $3,200 CAD...I think I'll stick with my Id but now know why my Ellsworth guy now stocks Sanata Cruz, Turner, Foes, etc.
    Your Id was not immune...I'm sure it was shot peened like all other Ellsworth bikes up to 2006. The new process involvs bead blasting as well, but with plastic pellets that are not likely to adhere to the frame and cause subsequent damage.

    This problem is not isolated to Ellswoth bikes. Turner had the same problems and abandoned the process as well.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by JM01
    are you saying that they're knowingly selling defective frames?

    Jeez...and for $3,200 CAD...I think I'll stick with my Id but now know why my Ellsworth guy now stocks Sanata Cruz, Turner, Foes, etc.

    I wouldn't call it defective. At my LBS, there's a tool that I don't the name of, so I'll describe it- it attaches to a power drill and is about 25-30 stiff wires with approx pea-sized solder beads on the end. You put the bike in the stand, sans seatpost, take this tool, insert the business end in the seat tube, and activate the power drill at lowish rpm. Move it up and down a few times- weld burrs, shot peen spillover, whatever, gone, done in a couple of minutes .
    Not really any different than having to chase paint out of the threads of disc brake mounts and BB shells, IMO.
    Mike

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown
    Move it up and down a few times- weld burrs, shot peen spillover, whatever, gone, done in a couple of minutes .
    No, I've worked in a shop and that tool isn't very usefull for big burrs or places where the welds have penetrated. It's a relatively "soft" tool when you need something to "cut" out things like where the weld has penetrated to far or where there's a big burr.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  33. #33
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    My LBS tried to use that tool you describe. Didn't take the weld bead out at all. Just smoothed it up a bit. The better tool is a reamer. They didn't try that, but wished they did.

  34. #34
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    First, I'll admit, I'm no tech/tool whiz and try to avoid these discussions whenever possible. Oops..
    Anyway, I have seen this tool used successfully, so that's all I've got.
    Mike

  35. #35
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    ok

    I would not call these frames defective. Many folks who don't frequently change saddle height have no complaint. In the cases that I'm talking about, no amount of honing or reaming helps. You must clean the tiny metal balls from the seat tube, then seal it up. There is no weld burn through, or distressed material.

    The 2005 and older Ids and Truths that have the same finish do not seem to have this problem. I can only assume that they were better sealed during the blasting process.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by thephat
    I would not call these frames defective. Many folks who don't frequently change saddle height have no complaint. In the cases that I'm talking about, no amount of honing or reaming helps. You must clean the tiny metal balls from the seat tube, then seal it up. There is no weld burn through, or distressed material.

    The 2005 and older Ids and Truths that have the same finish do not seem to have this problem. I can only assume that they were better sealed during the blasting process.
    Perhaps quality control was better enforced at the point of production and any "seconds" were quarantined.

    My only point here is that when you pay $2300.00 USD (my lbs wants $3,100.00 CAD) for a frame, you would expect a "ready to go" product, not requiring additional 3'rd party modifications.

    I recently bought a dept. store winter beater to use on salty roads for $72.96 CAD and it's perfect...all I had to do is adjust the seat height and I'm good to go.

    Why would you accept a second class product for a first class $?

    Would you keep a washing machine that shredded your clothes, a toaster that shocks, a car with defective brakes?

    Nothing against Ellsworth, but it appears that his cost control people are winning and those that have the passion have surrendered to the operations team.

    Just my .02 CAD

    EDIT: my CAD 72.96 winterbike...may last a couple of years and then will have to be replaced because of the salt eating away the components, but there's no quality issues with the alum. frame...actually, it appears to be bombproof and I may replace the cheap components when they die
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  37. #37
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    Hello everyone,
    I can understand the reasons of thepath to put foam inside of the frame. But doesn't that cause other problems? For example, where is the water supposed to go? And wouldn't the frame begin to rust, even though it is alumnium?
    I am thinking to put foam in my moment, but I would like to have some more insight first.
    Thanks

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlayMe
    Hello everyone,
    I can understand the reasons of thepath to put foam inside of the frame. But doesn't that cause other problems? For example, where is the water supposed to go? And wouldn't the frame begin to rust, even though it is alumnium?
    I am thinking to put foam in my moment, but I would like to have some more insight first.
    Thanks

    Just get the frame cleaned out. The place where you got it from should do it free of charge. Mine was done this way and have had no seat tube problems since.
    "but I do not see anything in the world of suspension methods that is superior to the 4 Bar.

    Dave Turner


  39. #39
    mtbr member
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    Cleaning wouldn't be the problem, but I believe thepath when he says that only sealing will eliminate the problem completely. I also believe that frames are not meant to be sealed. So what to do?

  40. #40
    mtbr member
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlayMe
    Cleaning wouldn't be the problem, but I believe thepath when he says that only sealing will eliminate the problem completely. I also believe that frames are not meant to be sealed. So what to do?
    Proper cleaning will eliminate it. I've had no problems since mine was done.

    I'm speaking from experience.
    "but I do not see anything in the world of suspension methods that is superior to the 4 Bar.

    Dave Turner


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