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  1. #1
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    How could this brand fall so far

    No postings for weeks at a time, no interest. Never see their bikes. What the heck happened

  2. #2
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    Niner, pivot, ibis and santa cruz happened.

  3. #3
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    The brand is just too toxic.

    Toxic history that will never go away. No respect or trust from within the industry at all.

    Plus they can never seem to find a decent graphic designer.... Graphics and paintwork are always terrible....

  4. #4
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    Leadership

    Ultimately Tony set the personality and tone for the company. Things like arguing and lying to customers, missing market trends etc all start at the top.

  5. #5
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  6. #6
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    I have had a couple Ellsworth's and really like the bikes. But mine were from mid 2000's and the geometry now seems about the same. I am shopping for a new bike and although the new 27.5 epiphany looks good nothing makes it stand out for me to buy it.


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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallo View Post
    kind of doubt it. That's a solid "me too" bike from a brand with the above mentioned problems that costs as much or more than its competition. If they lowered the price by $2k I'd have a look; at around $4k it would be a fair, not great, but fair deal. At $6.5, there are a lot of better bikes from better brands out there.

  8. #8
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    Two words...Tony Ellsworth. I'd honestly be embarrassed to ride one, given his character and history with the brand. It's pretty dead now, it seems. If only the investors had ben smart enough to check MTBR before getting conned into buying Ellsworth....

  9. #9
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    Feel the love. It was pretty entertaining back then, I'm just glad I never bought one. Good luck to the new owners.
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  10. #10
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    The entertainment was awesome. Too bad it isn't as exciting anymore. Also, too bad Titus folded.

  11. #11
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    There are things that TE did that simply doomed the company and name. I could totally see someone buying out their assets, machinery and tooling, but these days all that stuff is farmed out, which was what TE was doing in the later years, so I can't imagine they'd be buying anything but the name, which is the one part you wouldn't want.

    Dave Turner, Horst Leitner and a few others (Nicolai supposedly cleaned the shop?) worked to come up with the Amp rear suspension. Horst eventually patented it and while they ultimately sold the rights to Specialized, Horst made an arrangement with Dave Turner that he could use the Horst link for as long as he wanted(not sure if Nicolai was included in this, seeing as their stuff was only distributed in Europe for so long, but now that the patent is expired, doesn't really matter anymore). The Tony Ellsworth did a work-around years later by describing the FSR/Horst-link patent in a different way and got a unique patent which he called "ICT". Then he threatened to sue Dave Turner if Dave did not pay Tony E for each frame that Dave sold, even though DT was doing what he'd been doing all along. Just such an ultimately dip**** move that anyone on the outside can see. How would anyone think that wouldn't come back to bite you in the *** later? Dave ultimately changed the design to a non-horst link, which has arguably better characteristics anyways, rather than fight TE in court. Dave's take was that while he thought he could win, it would take so much time, effort and money as to not be worth it for the relatively small volume that he sold. Ultimately, the one laughing is Dave Turner, as it should be, as TEs practices as a human being ultimately did the company in. This is only one small facet in the entire TE show, but it's just par for the course. TE pulled so many douchebag moves like this and what would you know, it all caught up with the company.
    Last edited by Jayem; 09-05-2016 at 08:57 PM.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  12. #12
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    Another d-bag (though not in TE's league) was that Alan Kang guy of CHUMBA. TE is certainly in a league of his own, and people like him eventually tarnish the industry. Guys like Noel Buckley, Dave Turner, Sherwood Gibson, Chris Cocalis...they make the industry what it is and make our experience so positive. Too bad it can often be harder to make good money for these smaller guys, when competing with big companies and dealing with d-bags at the same time.

  13. #13
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    The haters had long memories and passed their hate on to others.
    Most of the haters didn't actually have any bad experience themselves they just listened to others or didn't like the business practices of the past and so hated and hated and hated .

    Despite the continuous accolades in the magazines and Internet reviews, the hate stuck .

    But the real reason for their demise is they didn't move with the times.
    When everyone else leapt forward with Carbon and modern geometry , Ells kept trying the " made in America " usp, unfortunately they realised too late that few people cared about that and it was actually putting some people off .

    They didn't update their geometry, instead relying on offset bushings and headsets to correct it and they never managed to print the correct geometry in their brochures or website, so you never really knew what the geometry would be and still needed offset bushings and angle sets to adjust it to modern standards .
    This is all a shame because the reason they got all those good reviews is because they were genuinely good bikes in their day . The suspension system really worked well.

    They still aren't moving with the times, this rogue for example . Just when the big players are producing radical geometry 29ers for enduro, they've bought out a 650b . They haven't even got the geometry right either !

    It's a real shame but the best thing they could do now is drop the Ellsworth name . Perhaps reserect the Aeon name ? And produce bikes that are cutting edge, ahead of the competition !

  14. #14
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    Most of the haters didn't actually have any bad experience themselves they just listened to others or didn't like the business practices of the past and so hate
    Except many if us remember specific instances where Tony called people on this board liars, like when he had taken magazine reviews and then changed what they said, making them seem like they said something completely different than what he indicated, and when called on it, he went to his website, changed it around again, came back here, and called us all liars. He's a pathological liar. It's not about hate when he lies and calls everyone else liars. It's simply something is wrong with the guy.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  15. #15
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    I never really "got" the Ellsworth thing, but this Rogue Sixty does look nice.

    The geometry seems pretty spot on for me anyway. 420 mm chainstays, 462 mm reach, 66 degree HA, and 74 degree SA for a Large seems pretty modern and like my perfect bike.

    I agree that the price is steep though. I'll stick with my Knollys.
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  16. #16
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    I've noticed that a number of the smaller niche brands have pretty dead/slow sub-fourms on MTBR. Pivot and Knolly to name two I check out frequently. Neither brand is in trouble from a sales perspective [AFAIK], but the number of posts per week are not as high as I would have expected.

    I don't have access to MTBR site traffic stats. It could just be this site doesn't draw as many people as it used to. I think MTBR pimping e-bikes might be driving non-motorized riders away!
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    I've noticed that a number of the smaller niche brands have pretty dead/slow sub-fourms on MTBR. Pivot and Knolly to name two I check out frequently. Neither brand is in trouble from a sales perspective [AFAIK], but the number of posts per week are not as high as I would have expected.

    I don't have access to MTBR site traffic stats. It could just be this site doesn't draw as many people as it used to. I think MTBR pimping e-bikes might be driving non-motorized riders away!
    I think Pivot and Knolly traffic is not bad, in fact, I think they are part of the "fairly successful" boutique brands, including Evil, Turner, Ibis, SC (hard to say this is still a boutique brand though), Yeti, and maybe Intense. After that it starts to drop off real quick IMO, more like the E forum than any of the others. What most of these brands have in common is they keep turning out competitive bikes for the most part. They offer decent quality, support and features that people want. A lot of times, giving the option of building your own bike from a frame or from a source you trust due to previous interaction and business.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli View Post
    Niner, pivot, ibis and santa cruz happened.
    To some extent, yes.

    The original Truth, from WAY back when, used a setup similar to the Giant NRS, where the shock was intended to be ran with zero sag and pedaling inputs would attempt to extend the shock, so you could say it was "100% efficient", although it did a horrible job of suspending like this. This changed fairly early on and was long gone by the days of the Ellsworth Id, but that 2nd generation Truth and everything after had very low pedaling efficiency. Even Specialized, which also uses a horst link, uses significantly more AS than Ellsworth. These are "old" bikes and they'll ride much more "soggy" and lethargic uphill, you'll feel like you are putting a ton of energy into it, but not getting much acceleration out of that. Tony Ellsworth even claimed at one point that his bikes were "up to 100% efficient" and that they did not need a lockout. Guess what the bikes came with in short order? Lockout switches! (on the shocks). Some of the geometry back in the day was just downright wacky compared to their contemporaries and super long linkage rockers are not conductive to stiff frames, as seen on some of these bikes. Most of the redesigns and enhancements have been in the geometry area, the suspension does not seem to have seen any improvements, at least compared to what most frame designers have figured out (somewhere near 100% anti-squat near the sag point and hopefully a little way through the travel). Just as Dave Turner found out, there really wasn't any benefit to doing this with a horst-link, at least when most everyone is using a 1x drivetrain where the pivot point relative to the chain is a fixed distance (instead of movable when we used multiple rings up front). This simplification makes it far easier to build good single-pivot bikes and about the only possible benifit for the FSR is possibly more active braking, but this can and did go too far on some FSR frames, with stink-bug effects (actual JACK instead of "squat") and many feel that slight amount of squat dialed in helps offset the inherent forward weight shift caused during braking. FSRs can be done better, and to an extent Specialized is doing this on at least some of the bikes, like the 2016 stumpjumper 27.5 at almost 100% AS at 50% of it's travel, much better adapted for 1x drivetrains, etc.

    I guess you can look at it all two ways, first, Tony really killed the brand with his toxic customer service and comments at customers, but they also did little to innovate after a point, more of a "they kind of got lucky at one point". They did a lot of re-designs and geometry tweaks, but much of it wasn't very substantial IMO.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  19. #19
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    The Knolly sub-forum was a lot more active back in 2013/14 when I first started reading the posts there. That one has definitely slowed down.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    The Knolly sub-forum was a lot more active back in 2013/14 when I first started reading the posts there. That one has definitely slowed down.
    Possibly a bit, I still check it and there are interesting things there every once and a while. I also notice the bikes in places. I've done some Pac NW trips to WA and seen some, so that's another way you can see it's not "dead". Lots of Evils BTW out there, that was impressive on my trip last month. I see Ibis, Yeti, etc. all on the trail. Ellsworth? Occasionally an old one and that's it. I admit that Knolly is more rare to see, I think they are more popular in places that have more "freeride" type terrain though.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nsynk View Post
    The haters had long memories and passed their hate on to others.
    Most of the haters didn't actually have any bad experience themselves they just listened to others or didn't like the business practices of the past and so hated and hated and hated .
    You failed to mention probably one of the worse customer service experiences in the bike industry. That and hit and miss QC...

    One of my mates got a Carbon Evolve a couple of years ago, despite our warnings! It was cheap though, shop was trying to get rid of all its stock of E.

    Sure enough this out of date hideous looking thing turned up. So he built it and immediately the rear calliper wouldn't sit straight. The carbon post mounts were crazily out of line. So cut the brake hydro line again and back to the shop and new seat stay supplied (ripped from another frame.. I'll go into more detail about that in a minute). So the build continued. Internal cable routing was a huge hole drilled into the head tube, nice rattle to accompany your ride. Supplied guides were badly thought out. A week later the rear HL bearing decides to un-bond and will not go back in with fresh bonding. Some callipers reveal the problem... So back to the shop for another chain stay (ripped from another donor bike). Honestly the shop looked like a Ellsworth frame horror scene, bits of body everywhere.

    That poor shop/importer suffered for years. They did what they could for customers but were so badly supported by Ellsworth. When you went into that shop there were countless Ellsworth frames in bits that had been used to rescue customers. It was like that for years.

    When he got the frame I thought maybe things had changed, I had to laugh.

    So its not just about 'hate' but about people who had real bad experiences with the brand - which were many!

    Anyway he sold the bike not long after.

    My own experience? In 2004 I bought Moment and after two rides my seat post jammed (before dropper posts ) Mine was one of the frames that had a 'QC' issue... Shot peen being left in the frame after poor preparation. The poor shop tried to help by cleaning out the frame, but it still kept on jamming and destroying posts. So they gave me another frame which meant my seat post could now go up and down... but now my rear Fat Albert was rubbing the seat stay, it was out of alignment. So my old frame was pulled apart ( you see how far back the shop had been doing this....) and I fitted the original rear end. Then sold it on and got a 6 Pack.

    I know many brands have issues, but the difference is in how they handle those issues. Those E frame weren't cheap!!!!!!

    I know may other owners had far worse dealings with TE.

  22. #22
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    And the staff he took from Sapa..... Then his dealings with Ventana, I believe Sherwood told him where to stick it. Oh the tales!!!!!

    You could almost do a tv drama of it all.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibbs_ View Post
    And the staff he took from Sapa..... Then his dealings with Ventana, I believe Sherwood told him where to stick it. Oh the tales!!!!!

    You could almost do a tv drama of it all.
    I am so disappointed I missed all of this. I have done extensive searches here numerous times and have been unable to find any of the legendary madness. Nothing. Zip. I strongly suspect the brass expunged the site of all TE-related insanity. I wish someone WOULD do a TV drama. Or better yet, a full length movie.

    And add Norco to the list of virtually inactive sub-forums. Where I ride, every 4th bike is a Norco. Well, that might be a bit of a stretch, but not by much. Yet, zero traffic here. I have concluded that Norco must have a very limited sales region - primarily western Canada. And everyone must be riding and not typing. Or something. Not quite sure.

    I haven't seen an Ellsworth on a local trail in the last decade or so.

  24. #24
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    How could this brand fall so far

    I rarely see others on the trail other than the three my dad and I have. I ran across one in Vegas a year ago. I never had any issues with them other than breaking a seat stay on my ID that was way out of warranty. We are really happy with our bikes, I'm in the market for another and Ellsworth isn't in the running at all. And trying to sell a used one isn't easy either haha!


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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by desertwheeler View Post
    I rarely see others on the trail other than the three my dad and I have. I ran across one in Vegas a year ago. I never had any issues with them other than breaking a seat stay on my ID that was way out of warranty. We are really happy with our bikes, I'm in the market for another and Ellsworth isn't in the running at all. And trying to sell a used one isn't easy either haha!

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    Hey - no disrespect intended on my part. I never really got it, but back in the day, I had a few biking buddies who literally lusted after Ellsworth bikes. Absolute top of their list. TE may have been a pathological nut case, but for a period, his bikes were considered by some completely sane guys I knew to be ultra high end, and super boutiquey. Pricey, but the ultimate.

  26. #26
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    Are you guys talking about Tony The Eel Ellsworth or Donald Trump. I'm getting confused.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    Hey - no disrespect intended on my part. I never really got it, but back in the day, I had a few biking buddies who literally lusted after Ellsworth bikes. Absolute top of their list. TE may have been a pathological nut case, but for a period, his bikes were considered by some completely sane guys I knew to be ultra high end, and super boutiquey. Pricey, but the ultimate.
    No worries, I love the looks and the way it rides, I heard a lot of the horror stories after I broke my frame, my dads buddies never had a problem with dealing with Ellsworth on warranty parts. My dad got a new chain stay for his 04 truth and a seat stay for his oracle.


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  28. #28
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    Truly excellent to hear DW

    Also excellent that you and your dad are into biking together. Great stuff.

  29. #29
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    One of my LBS (leaving the name out because he indicated he wants it that way) goes way back with Ventana and Turner, knows both guys personally and has for more than 20 years.

    Evidently many years ago TE called up my LBS and asked if he wanted to have one of the Ellsworth bikes to demo and sell. Wanna say it was the Id, but I don't remember for sure now. My LBS said "no way". Guess what showed up a few weeks later? My LBS did not accept the package and sent it right back. Guess who called all irate about "you don't want to burn bridges in this business" a couple days later? My LBS's response was basically "who the F are you?". My LBS of course knew who TE and Ellsworth were, but my LBS just couldn't comprehend how this guy thought he was so important to the industry and everyone else.

    I mean, this craziness wasn't even part of what I knew about until just a few months ago when I got my new Turner frame from him. I didn't even ask about TE and this story just popped up. It's this crazy stuff you hear about from all sorts of different angles that really sets the tone.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  30. #30
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    That certainly sounds like him. Big ego, aggressive personality, takes things personally, and not much to back it up.

    So that BST Nano (they basically owned part or most of Ellsworth lately) collapsed in 2015 and before they did, TE managed to somehow convince an investor (Jonathan Freeman?) to make a big investment in Ellsworth and keep him as the VP/founder. So I guess things are back to how they used to be...with TE at the helm churning out his outdated designs and blowing through someone else's cash. I do think that the brand has taken too much reputation damage, and investors would be uninformed to invest in it with such stiff competition that churns out superior bikes at lower prices. Maybe someone should direct Jonathan Freeman to this thread. He may have second thoughts.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    I am so disappointed I missed all of this. I have done extensive searches here numerous times and have been unable to find any of the legendary madness. Nothing. Zip. I strongly suspect the brass expunged the site of all TE-related insanity. I wish someone WOULD do a TV drama. Or better yet, a full length movie.
    No you won't see a lot of it, because most of it was removed... But somebody had already cached it and saved it

    Every now and then somebody would repost TE's threads. They were excruciating to read, honestly you just wanted to jump down a hole. He got thoroughly owned by people on here - but of course he never saw it that way..

    They are a text book example of how to kill your brand by social media.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibbs_ View Post
    No you won't see a lot of it, because most of it was removed... But somebody had already cached it and saved it
    I wish I could read every single post in every single thread. I would do a non-stop binge read and savour every word.

  33. #33
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    Back in 2004, I had some money to go all-out and buy a boutique bike.

    I'm so very glad I bought a Titus after reading all of this. It was really a great bike.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

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    Oh man, the drama was amazing...the most entertaining saga ever, and some of the best stuff on MTBR. I wish all the posts had been saved. Titus was a really good brand and made some great bikes. Chris Cocalis' exit took that brand down, it seems. Still, he is churning out get bikes at Pivot. I think Pivot has some Titus DNA.

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    Maybe I wont save up for one of these bikes, maybe ill stick with my same brand, bikes look damn near comparable anyway. Better components and cheaper, too bad not so many bikes are made in the states.

  36. #36
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    From the Ellsworth Website:

    Ellsworth Handcrafted means that you’ll get the absolute best bike possible – every bike is produced for our end users as if it is to be our own. They are designed and engineered in Southern California, and we use as much US manufacturing and domestically sourced material as we can. That said, it is sometimes necessary to employ the skills and know-how of others outside our borders because our true focus is always on the processes, procedures and materials. We’re constantly striving for the best blend of light weight, strength, and durability. We aim for the best handling and suspension efficiency. When you throw a leg over your Ellsworth bicycle, you can be 100% sure that we worked diligently to deliver the best ride possible.
    From another place on their website:

    Ellsworth Aluminum
    Ellsworth Aluminum bike frames provide all the excitement, function, and efficiency of our carbon fiber frames, but at a lower cost. We’re still making these in the USA, and we’re proud of it. Prior to being welded, each frame tube is milled by hand for a perfect, gap-free alignment with the other tubes as the frame is assembled in the jig. These tight joints ensure that the frames can be welded to perfection for maximum strength, stiffness, and durability. All of our aluminum frames are anodized to show off the flawless craftsmanship and to protect the aluminum alloy from corrosion, inside and out. Like our carbon production, you can be sure that our aluminum frames are made with the same social and environmental stewardship, and that are manufacturing practices minimize waste and raw material usage.
    Now this, from January of this year:

    PCW16: Ellsworth finds renewed energy with another new owner - Bikerumor

    One of the biggest points that Tony stressed to me during our time at PressCamp was that even though none of their bikes are completely made in the U.S. at the moment, Ellsworth still has one of the highest percentages of domestic components in the industry.
    Domestic components? I mean seriously?

    San Diego investor acquires Ellsworth | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News

    The brand is at PressCamp Winter exhibiting its new line of carbon bikes with frames largely produced in Taiwan and assembled in Southern California. Ellsworth said he still hopes to produce carbon frames domestically, however, and the company continues to focus on sourcing as many U.S.-produced components as possible.
    I mean, just go read the ellsworth website yourself. It's rare that you see that much effort put into BS. I realize every manufacturer wants to fluff up their brand, but given these claims being at the very least questionable, and Tony Ellsworth's history, you gotta be a sucker to believe most of what's on that website.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

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    I mean, just go read the ellsworth website yourself. It's rare that you see that much effort put into BS. I realize every manufacturer wants to fluff up their brand, but given these claims being at the very least questionable, and Tony Ellsworth's history, you gotta be a sucker to believe most of what's on that website.[/QUOTE]

    I don't know, the other bikes I was looking at have about the same amount of text describing their product(fezzari). I mean the bikes at my local lbs I think are all over priced and middle of the run. I mean unless your a sucker or fairly wealthy I wouldn't shop there, except for some repairs and such (they will hook you up, good people).

    Not trying to 'thread jack' I suppose I have not done too much shopping around. I don't exactly study bicycle geometry's, there is so many nice bikes out there, most outclass most people. Its kind of a headache to examine them all.

  38. #38
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    How could this brand fall so far-20160910_110538.jpgNot defending Ellsworth here...I really couldn't care less about the drama. My Truth did start to develop a small crack on the chainstays. I sent a picture to Ellsworth and they shipped me a replacement, no questions asked. Granted that was about 10 years ago.

    I must admit that I made a "once in a lifetime" climb in Moab on my Truth. My bros and I tried it several times and then, somehow, I made it. I'm no great rider, not bragging, but it was the most vert thing I ever attempted and I will never try it again. It was an adrenaline rush from hell. I still like the bike and I'm keeping it. I have a Yeti SB6c now that is screaming to get to So. Utah...so forget everything I just said, maybe I'll try it again on the Yeti. ; )
    Last edited by jakef801; 10-16-2016 at 11:05 AM.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer View Post
    Oh man, the drama was amazing...the most entertaining saga ever, and some of the best stuff on MTBR. I wish all the posts had been saved. Titus was a really good brand and made some great bikes. Chris Cocalis' exit took that brand down, it seems. Still, he is churning out get bikes at Pivot. I think Pivot has some Titus DNA.
    Chris is a very good businessman with a great grasp of the people part of the equation. Hire the right people for design, sales and customer service and you'll make a lot of money. Successful business owners understand this and stay out of the way of their people. Everything I've ever heard about TE is that he got involved in everything and rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.. There is a shop near me is a decades long trek dealer that carries one "boutique" brand of mountain bikes. After some difficulties with their Ellsworth rep and the subsequent calls from tony, they dropped them and have been using santa cruz as their secondary brand ever since. Consequently, I still see quite a few Ellsworths on my local trails. Another store near me that moves a lot of pivots gushes over what a great company they are to work with. The owner has met chris but has never had to speak to him when there is an issue. They don't make people go to those lengths.

  40. #40
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    I never thought I'd see the day when a thread like this was in the Ellsworth forum, and not much fight for the brand. A friend of mine back in the early 2000's bought a Truth. It cracked / broke / snapped so many times he gave up fighting with TE and ended up going with Turner. Funny thing is we lived just a few miles from both Ellsworth and Turner. He became great friends with DT and is such an incredible rider DT had him test prototype bikes for a few years. Looks like TE blew that relationship as well.
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    Well, most of the older Ellsworth owners have moved on to other brands. Regardless of TE antics, Ellsworth eventually just fell far behind in geometry and suspension design. Their most vocal and passionate owners simply moved on to Santa Cruz, Ibis, Intense, Pivot, and a couple of others. I never see an Ellsworth on the trails here in the Colorado Front Range, or near Breckenridge. I used to up to 5-6 years ago. Then I started to see more SC, Ibis, Intense, and Specialized here and Ellsworth practically vanished.

    I do remember one time I was on my bright green Turner 5 Spot and ran into an Ellsworth rider...the last time I saw an Ellsworth. I think it was a Truth but honestly, I don't remember the model....it was a black 26" FS. He was stopped at a usual stopping point at Kenosha Pass, right before a long forested climb. So I stopped and said Hi and the usual "how's it going" thing. Man, the guy was just standoffish and would not even say a word back. He nodded curtly. Never met a rider like that, I took off, and it was my only negative experience with a mtn biker ever. Maybe he was on MTBR and hated Turner riders...not sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    I never thought I'd see the day when a thread like this was in the Ellsworth forum, and not much fight for the brand. A friend of mine back in the early 2000's bought a Truth. It cracked / broke / snapped so many times he gave up fighting with TE and ended up going with Turner. Funny thing is we lived just a few miles from both Ellsworth and Turner. He became great friends with DT and is such an incredible rider DT had him test prototype bikes for a few years. Looks like TE blew that relationship as well.

  42. #42
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    How could this brand fall so far

    So my dad recently broke his oracles' rocker arm. He called Ellsworth they sent him a new blue one. He had to buy a new shock stay and parts to convert the Ellsworth hub to a thru axle for a few hundred bucks. The rocker was free, but because of the different design he had to change the shock stay too. They were very helpful to him even being such an old bike. So not all bad coming from them.


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  43. #43
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    I came so close in pulling the trigger on a Eppi. as I still think they are decent bikes but Wow! this brand just feel of the face of the earth. I heard all the rumors and B.S. as I'm aware that a lot said was true and thats a shame too. Tony had a good thing going but let it all slip away.

    With all that said as people can form their own opinion as I pick a Titus FTM carbon which I sold to my relative as this was a great bike but now I'm just glad I went with Pivot as which is what I now own. A Mach 6 and a 429 SL as I just love the DW suspension

  44. #44
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    Hi
    As luck would have it, me and my brothers are Ellsworth riders and it’s true the world has changed alot since I started in 2005 on a first gen Epiphany. Those who know remember it was one of the lightest full suspension production trail bikes in its day largely credited to a magnesium rocker. Being out in the colonies we knew nothing of all the internet space cadets twisting off about TE this and that we just wanted to ride our bikes for the hell of it. I'm not interested in such debate other than to say negativity tends to gain more momentenum than positive and that modern social media platforms killed off the forums and any real sense of true identity with it. In economic terms a current model Ellsworth frameset is pretty much the same price that I paid in 2005.

    I dealt directly with Ellsworth USA as the factory mag rocker arm cracked twice and so the third one which was made of alloy is still going strong. The front triangle developed a hairline crack on the seat stay. These replacement parts got shipped directly from Ellsworth no questions asked, I got rain forest green anodized with a frog which is nice. By this stage I was racing marathon, cross country enduros, 6-24 hour races etc and logging many kilometres across all kinds of brutal terrians putting my bicycle and body through all kinds of hell. Many guys would upgrade bicycle every season or two whilst I had my Ellsworth around 12.4kg and swap bits as they broke and it was nice to ride and I remained competitive as my aerobic and anaerobic fitness grew to match my technical superiority.

    Eventually I succumbed to the 29er thing and got a Superfly as I was training and racing Madones on the road and the Superfly was quicker and more versatile overall than the Epiphany. I had worse problems on the Carbon Superfly as the front derailleur block #%$ed out in the first few races resulting in embarrassment. Trek also did not honour its warranty but corrected this known design fault on the 2012 model. Being fickle I suppose I could Trek you just lost a customer but then I bought another Mad One in 2013.

    Anyway I still love my Epiphany in my time I've ridden with the best riders from around the world and crushed plenty of sponsored team guys and wannabe racers one and all with it in various campaigns and I've had my arse handed too me as well. My last competitive win in 2014 without the Epi as back up I wouldn't have done it. Now its retired and brought out from the shed for social rides. The old girl still gets looks and the older I get the faster I was back in the day. JR

  45. #45
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    ^ Nice read Jimmy. I can't help but notice that was your first post. Sometimes those associated to a brand will join a forum just to turn negative energy into positive. I'm not saying that's what you are doing but...
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    ^ Nice read Jimmy. I can't help but notice that was your first post. Sometimes those associated to a brand will join a forum just to turn negative energy into positive. I'm not saying that's what you are doing but...
    Yeah I originally joined the forum I think somewhere between 2003-2005 but I either forgot the login/ username etc or couldn't retrieve it so I created a new one, its probably been a few years since I posted. I have no affiliation or association to any brand. At the time I learned it was possible to pay in the thousands for a bicycle frame from my uncle who had an I.D while we were kicking around on 700 buck Mongooses and the flashiest thing we'd seen was Giant so Ellsworth seemed super cool to us. When I was racing I started looking for any lightweight edge at best price even though it eventually became less important I would have stuck with Ellsworth but my LBS gave me jerseys, parts, mechanical support etc etc so two way street my old uncle stuck with the brand I think he's got 3 or 4 Ellsworths. I'm in a good place now where I see all the rookies with their bling Santa Cruz or whatever I'm glad I step out of that latest and greatest bling contest for good for every dollar I spend I need to earn ten times

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallo View Post
    THAT is one Fugly bike!!!

    I would not buy it based on looks alone.

    Yuck!

    Also, those bikes were breaking left and right back in the day. Haven't seen one for years so not sure how reliable they are now a days

  48. #48
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    They have been sold again ,

    The recent restructuring of the ASG Group, initially founded by Heinrich Dannhauser, has consolidated its position as the wholesale leader in South Africa with brands such as Pinarello, Sidi, High5 and Rudy Project. These are supported by the growth of in-house brands, Scicon and Ftech, as well as the acquisition of Ellsworth Bikes, which also led to the founding of ASG North America.

    https://cyclingindustry.news/claudio...ts-management/
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  49. #49
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    Such a shame it's gone so quiet on here. Just to put a cat among the pigeons, I was just thinking after yesterdays ride on my 6 month old 2017 SantaCruz 5010 Xt CC that a decade of mtb design has not done so much for the quality of ride compared to my previous suspension bike the Ellsworth Epiphany Mk1 (have been riding hardtails inbetween). My feelings towards my new bike are totally 'meh'...for what is supposedly one of the better trail bikes of its time, for me in comparison on the trails I ride - the Ellsworth felt the better bike 99% of the time, and in fact has probably corrupted my opinion on full-sussers as I haven't ridden a system that felt better all-round than ICT (I work in the trade and get to try a lot)

    Granted the modern bike can handle steeper drops better, and the whole bike is noticeably stiffer (arguably only really noticeable when really 'wanging' it), but on a normal ride that counts for a tiny percentage of time actually spent feeling that benefit. Compared to this the Epiphany was lighter, climbed better, was more nimble, was more efficient, better balanced, just plain nicer to ride nearly all the time. What amuses me for all these so called advancements in suspension tech is that my Epiphany with a straight Float R (no adjustments) was plusher and also pedalled better than my new VPP bike, I could climb for hours on the Epiphany, and enjoy it. A big difference is that the ICT stayed neutral and active enough to allow climbing of difficult technical sections which required suspension movement, the VPP tends to throw me off on the same terrain due to the pedal kick back causing a loss of balance on slow speed terrain (not helped by smashing pedals at the rate of a 100 an hour!)

    Most of my riding form the back door involves prolonged climbing over 2000ft then steep chutes down, I'm not enjoying climbing on the 5010..it feels like a draggy dog, and I can't clear stuff that I could on Epi and can even clear them on my 29er hardtail.
    I'm no slacker when it comes to climbing and have been mtb'ing since the dawn of the sport, and yes, I used to race XC...but since when in modern bikes did a bike weighing 29/30lbs become a good all-round bike? Well not in my world where living in the mountains means sustained 45+min climbs on the limit on most rides, I want to ride up, along and down too all as fast as possible (maybe this is strange these days)...and to be honest, after reaching the top on my descent orientated 29lb bike, I'm tired. My Epiphany had same travel and weighed 25lbs.

    Yes, thanks to dropper and 'Slack' the 5010 descends better, but it's not a big deal to me- it actually just makes it very easy on steep descents, which makes it a bit dull. Whereas with the application of good technique the Epiphany could do just as much...and only a few seconds slower.

    In short - I hope this brand can come back. I bought my first frame retail (when i could have had other brands trade) - and I'd consider buying another again in a heartbeat if they can bring back a modern design with the same ride quality and attributes as Epiphany.
    Last edited by EndOverend; 10-11-2017 at 06:40 AM.

  50. #50
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    I really enjoyed my epiphany. If it had been the right size and been able to put a new tapered fork and stuff I would not have got rid of it. I love my Mojo 3 now but would have tried another epiphany if I had the chance.


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  51. #51
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    I think (as you'll see from the posts on here) it's more to do with Tony himself rather than the bikes or the technology. I've no doubt if Tony wasn't in charge the brand might still be going strong...

    I spent my hard earned cash with the brand and got burnt like many others...
    Last edited by Dibbs_; 10-17-2017 at 11:40 AM.

  52. #52
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    Too bad. I like my old Epiphany and my older Turner 5-spot. Both horst link bikes. Both great.

  53. #53
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    I think the ‘new’ Epiphany looks stunning, and I like the fact that it can still run 2x. But yikes, the price...you got to REALLY want it.

  54. #54
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    I'm torn. I'm in the market for my first new bike in a decade, and my first full-suspension at that. Basically just shopping for a "modern" 29er trail bike. I can get a great price on an Epiphany, significantly less than other brands I'm considering like Pivot and Niner, and I do like that is available in aluminum. Still, the bad karma associated with this brand keeps me away. Wish I could demo one of these to see if the ride outweighs the stigma.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by C88 View Post
    I'm torn. I'm in the market for my first new bike in a decade, and my first full-suspension at that. Basically just shopping for a "modern" 29er trail bike. I can get a great price on an Epiphany, significantly less than other brands I'm considering like Pivot and Niner, and I do like that is available in aluminum. Still, the bad karma associated with this brand keeps me away. Wish I could demo one of these to see if the ride outweighs the stigma.
    Why would you set yourself up for heartache. Run..Forest..run..
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  56. #56
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    It'll be fine...don't sit around wringing your hands, just GO FOR IT!


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  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by C88 View Post
    I'm torn. I'm in the market for my first new bike in a decade, and my first full-suspension at that. Basically just shopping for a "modern" 29er trail bike. I can get a great price on an Epiphany, significantly less than other brands I'm considering like Pivot and Niner, and I do like that is available in aluminum. Still, the bad karma associated with this brand keeps me away. Wish I could demo one of these to see if the ride outweighs the stigma.
    I have no history with the old Ellsworth products / staff but I can say my experience so far with the new Evolution Convert and the current team at Ellsworth has been fantastic. Having had many bikes in the past couple years like Pivots, Yeti, Santa Cruz etc.. I can say without question this bike performs as good and in many cases better than many of the most popular bikes currently on the market.

  58. #58
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    The shop I use has started to deal with Ellsworth so if I buy another I will definitely take a hard look at them. Every dealing we have had has been a good one.


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  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rom3n View Post
    I have no history with the old Ellsworth products / staff but I can say my experience so far with the new Evolution Convert and the current team at Ellsworth has been fantastic. Having had many bikes in the past couple years like Pivots, Yeti, Santa Cruz etc.. I can say without question this bike performs as good and in many cases better than many of the most popular bikes currently on the market.
    So you are equating quality, service and warranty of Ellsworth with Pivot, Yeti and Santa Cruz?

    Ellsworth has never even come close on any level with these other manufacturers in those regards.

    Just an outrageous statement if you ask me...but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

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