Epiphany or MoJo
Hey I'm looking at the epiphany or the mojo...Has anyone rode both? What have you found better? Strengths of each? Suspension system? Frame :Carbon vs Aluminum? Any availible info or input would help? I coming from a xcountry background but I ride more agressively but not quite freeride. I'm 5'5" 150-160#s. Thanks
I have demo'd both bikes and have plans to purchase the Ellsworth. The rear end seemed better and the ride quality was more enjoyable on the Epiphany; quick, yet stable and tracked well. I like a long travel bike that I can throw around and the Mojo seemed to ride big, tall or even high. I may be imagining this, It did climb excellent. I've also ridden the Yeti 575 and SC Blur LT and the Epi came out on top. I'll be setting it up like a xc. Can't wait to own one.
These 2 were at the top of my list too. I was very intrigued by the suspension concept
behind the dw-linked Mojo, but since I live in an area where most of the riding is
technical XC trail riding, I was worried about flex and durability, and realized the Ells
would be the safer bet.
I was curious as to how bouncy the Ells was compared to other 4 bar designs
that you've demoed. Most of the 4 bar or faux bar rocker link designs that I know of,
ie Turner, Kona, Trek, have to rely on heavy compression damping to prevent overreactivity
of the shock, and this makes them kind of bouncy. I know this is not the case, though, for the classic, strut based 4 bars like the Titus Motolite. I've ridden one - it uses
relatively low compression damping, which is a good thing. How does the Ells Epi fare
in this scenario. I kind of think, even with the ICT, it would still need somewhat higher
damping because of the rocker link design - perhaps not as high as the others, though.
Have to agree with timberrr. Just throw down for an Epi.. You'll find it smooth. Can't say I find it bouncy. 'Active' yes. Have not ridden anything other that the four I listed and full rigid Specalized Stumpjumper, Mtn Klein and a Ritchey Assent Comp that date back to the eighties. I still own and ride the Ritchey. The bikes you mention are all solid and seem well built. I ride the road a lot (so I understand rigid) I just found the Ellsworth to fit my style of riding. More than a XC but less than a Downhill. I like to climb, fast and from the saddle and to float over rough decents. My guess is I'll be setting it up with an RP23 and have it Push'd right out of the shoot; keep it firm without being stiff. That may change when I finally own one and dial it in. I have buddies that like heavier bikes with slack angles for decending, but big bikes feel to much like motocross. If I wanted something in the 30++pound range I'd get something with a throttle.
Durability on the Mojo? Time will tell on that one....
Check this thread out for an interesting disc. on ICT:
Originally Posted by road dirt
Tech talk: Paging derby(and anyone else who
I dont know if derby's assertions are correct, because I've never ridden either bike.
He compares ICT bikes to a bad monopivot (faux bar) design, basically saying they
bob/bounce like these kind of bikes. He seems well educated on the physics of
suspension and makes a persuasive case against ICT.
My personal opinion about ICT - although this is really a guess, just what I've been able
to glean from various sources - is that the ICT positioning of the pivots probably
helps a little bit with pedaling efficiency, but not anywhere near the amount that TE
claims. (on the website, they claim 99% efficiency, no bike is that good)
Thanks for the thread. I am not even going to attempt to talk shop the way derby can. Out of my league. He's got a way bigger brain. I will say this. Pull the trigger and go buy a bike. It's just a bike. Hammer the thing into the ground. Drink a beer with your buddies afterword and do it again tomorrow. The problem with talk and multiple demo's is we all have opinions and you are never going to find two bikes to demo with the same exact kits on them so the ride quality will always be different. Will I ever stand on top of a podium with my ellsworth? Uh no. Will I smoke a friend up our local track. Yes, today. And tomorrow he'll probably kick mine. Jump in the water's fine.
The Ancient One
Derby is a nice guy and an experienced rider who has demoed a lot of bikes. But you would be wise to ignore anything very technical coming from him. A lot of it is rubbish.
One example from the thread you cited is what he says about the IC being outside the wheelbase and how that affects braking. It's really fairly simple: the farther forward the IC the less compressive torque put on the rear suspension when applying the rear brake. This compressive torque is known as "anti-lift". It's long been recognized in the suspension world that less anti-lift means better traction. What happens, I think, is that traction is more readily regained when momentarily lost.
I also believe that something similar happens when climbing really steep stuff in the granny ring. The forward IC, such as on an Ellsworth, means that the bike does not suddenly squat when traction is momentarily lost, or at least does not squat as much, and that allows traction to be regained.
The DW link is probably the most intelligently designed bike out there of the ones that make a lot of use of chain tension to control the rear suspension. Ellsworths are not in that group. They use chain tension very little to control the rear suspension. As a result Ellsworths, and other similar designs, will bob more when ridden out of the saddle or with a rough pedal stroke, unless you jack up the compression damping. What needs to be pointed out is that the DW link is using the chain to do the same thing.
That means you have a relatively high initial level of pedal feedback on DW links, regardless of what anyone says. DW concedes that it's there but he says it's like white noise--it stays in the background and doesn't bother you. Personally I hate white noise. And pedal feedback too.
That's really what it all comes down to--personal taste.
"Don't criticize what you can't understand."
That may be true in theory but I did not feel any pedal feedback when I demoed a 6 Point. I was actually surprised at how well it climbed. The rear also remained active even with a good amount of chain torque while climbing rough terrain; again this surprised me. Traction was very good while climbing and decending. The rear wheel, IMHO, rolled over bumps better than my ICT equiped bikes; yet another surprise. Anyway, what I'm trying to get at is try both bikes before you buy it and you have to ride a well executed DW and ICT bike to appreciate their differences and similarities.
Originally Posted by Steve from JH
Last edited by SCUBAPRO; 02-27-2007 at 09:37 AM.
"The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech
The Ancient One
The local Ellsworth dealer also carries Ibis and will stock the new Felt Equilink. I plan to demo both when the snow melts and he reopens. He promised last fall I could do a real ride on them, not just a round-the-block one.
"Don't criticize what you can't understand."
I'll be eagerly awaiting your opinions, Steve. Your analysis always seems very logical
to me, makes sense:
This is what I was thinking the other day. The DW link has to have pedal feedback
Originally Posted by Steve from JH
because it uses chain tension like the Santa Cruz, to control unwanted susp.
movement. Theres no magic bullet. You either fall into the bob camp or the pedal
feedback camp. I have ongoing issues with my right knee due to a (very stupid)
accident I had a couple years ago, so I'd rather not take any chance of putting extra
strain on that knee. I have a blurxc. You can tune the susp./rebound so that you get it
to like its in the background/not very noticeable like the DW link proponents claim theirs
does, but the pedal feedback will still be there. I guess it comes down to choosing the
system that works best for you. My current opinion is that for applications where
pedaling efficiency is the most important thing, ie, fast singletrack,
the chain tension induced systems work better. Over real rough terrain where following
every contour of the ground is the most important aspect, then youre better off with a
pedaling neutral design, such as well executed (horst) 4 bar.
I have ridden a seatstay link bike and a chainstay link bike, and I think the latter
follows the ground better, is more small bump sensitive. I came away from that thread with the impression that, although derby is certainly well informed about susp. design and has a better understanding of how they work than I do, I was unconvinced of his comparison of ICT to poor monolink 4 bar. Even though they may on the surface look
somewhat similar in design, the ICs are a lot different. I also think your point, Steve,
about the IC being forward of the bike on the climbs on the Ells helping a little to
control unwanted susp. squat may be the reason behind why people who have owned
multiple 4 bars usually call the Ells the most efficient climbing of the bunch. I noticed the
forward climbing location of the IC on the Ells demo video. I've never heard anyone
ding the Ells's for their climbing performance, so even though some like to bag on
Ellsworth and ICT (for various reasons, I think some just dont like the personality of TE,
so they bag on his bikes), I think there's likely something to the ICT efficiency claims,
exaggerated though they may be.
Wow, that was a much longer post than I had intended. Cheers to anybody that
was able to follow my rambling muses ...
I have only one other bike to compare the Epi to, and thats an 01, 5 inch travel Kona Stinky. its a seatstay pivot design AKA faux-bar. Everything else has been steel hardtail (i know old school...thumbshifters too if you were wondering about my handle
anyway, one of my favorite aspects of mtn biking is cleaning those steep techy climbs, the ones that nobody else even tries. Though Stinky was significantly better than hardtail on these sections, i am constantly blown away with how easy it is to climb the techy stuff on the Epi. I keep thinking to myself, man, i coulda done that with only one leg!
Granted its almost 10 lbs lighter than Stinky (they both have virtually the same travel front and back), it defnitely tracks uneven ground better. What really blows me away is when i get out of the saddle to hammer, i dont feel like i am wasting half of my energy with my bike bobbing up and down.
The Epi does have a platform shock, Rockshox MC 3.3, but i almost always run it fully open...without extra compression damping and the bike still shoots forward with every pedal stroke.
I can not comment on either the Epiphany or the Mojo. What I can do is say one friend owns a Truth, the other a Moment. I have had seat times on both bikes. In my opinion, ICT is real! It works! It is just as efficient and plush as Tony Ellsworth claims it to be.
I own a DW-Link bike. Without a doubt, the best bike purchase I have ever made.
1- CLIMBING. I can easily clear sections that weren't so easy in the past.
2- DECENDING. You pick the line and the bike will make sure you stay on it.
3- EFFICIENCY. The bike pedals like a bike 3-5 pounds lighter.
4- DESIGN. Visit the DW-Link site. You too will be a believer.
5- BRAKING- Both bikes do a great job eliminating brake jack. Gone are the days of skidding, the rear end binding, wondering how to dive into a corner, how early to brake, how late to brake etc.
As for the pedal induced feedback of DW bikes....... Sorry, I don't feel it!
Ultimately, the decision is yours! Both are excellent bikes. My suggestion to you- ride both bikes, take a deep breath and choose one rather than agonize over this decision for six months!
Again, you can't go wrong with either one.
Last edited by Chicken Legs; 02-28-2007 at 12:13 AM.
Hi Steve - I've asked questions and made comments on your posts before based on theory but this time I will stick to ride experience.
Originally Posted by Steve from JH
I bought a Mojo with the DW link and am very impressed. In the granny gear the pedal response is very positive. In the middle ring it is not quite as positive but still much better than my Titus Switchblade or any of the FSR designs I have . When transitioning from seated to standing while peddalling nothing bad happens, you just keep moving along smoothly with very little energy wasted (unless you move your CG up and down alot) and is definitely better than an FSR. The ride is plush and peddalling through the rough is a treat. There is no noticeable pedal feedback at ANY time, it just allways feels smooth without the slight mushiness with an FSR or the pedal stall of a high monopivot. The best way to describe the braking response is that nothing bad happens. It feel neutral and not rough. Climbing is noticeably better on this bike. The handling and cornering are impressive some of which is likely due to the geometry and stiffness of the short links, and alot of which is likely due to the stiff carbon frame and Fox 36 fork. Of all the bikes I have ever owned this one felt really good right out of the box and continues to impress with every ride. It allways feels right going up, going down, on the flats, or through the rough.
hey thanks for all the input...
I have a quick question...what exactly is pedal feedback? What does it feel like? Please excuse my ignorance...
All I can do is give the kindergarten explaination until a braniac decides to chime in.
Let's say you are pedaling smoothly and your suspension compresses..... It is basically the (ever so slight) rearward rotation of your pedals due to the rearward movement of the rear tire and the chain trying to pull things back. I guess you could say the chain is FIGHTING the rearward movement of the rear tire. Someone help me out here!!!
I QUIT! All I know, your pedaling get a bit jerky- thereby reducing efficiency...
In my opinion, DW Link bikes do a fine job of minimizing the problem.