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  1. #1
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    Epi vs. MotoLite

    I've had a chance to test ride an Epi and Truth on local trails. Loved the climbing ability and responsiveness of the Truth but it lacked the downhill confidence of the Epi. The Truth does come across a little twitchy due to its razor sharp responsivenes. The Epi was more approachable and enjoyable for me all the way around. The Epi is my favorite ride to date.................., however, its a pricey frame and the belt has gotten a little tighter than expected lately. I've done the dangerous thing of looking into other possiblities and considerations. The MotoLite still looks like an attractive contender and seems to have a loyal following. The Moto II price gets close to that of an Epi frame and might not be worth considering given how much I liked the Epi but the standard Moto is definitely a less painful financial layout.
    Does anyone have experience riding the Epi and MotoLite frames? If so, would you mind sharing your impressions of both in way of performance comparisons? I cannot seem to find a local Titus demo program and don't really want to have another shop literally ship me a bike to demo.
    Here's the bio: 5'10", 165lb. Aggressive XC, all mountain rider who likes good climbing efficiency. Not strictly technical climbs. Enjoy single track and technical downhills.
    Thanks for any input.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Down n Dirty
    I've had a chance to test ride an Epi and Truth on local trails. Loved the climbing ability and responsiveness of the Truth but it lacked the downhill confidence of the Epi. The Truth does come across a little twitchy due to its razor sharp responsivenes. The Epi was more approachable and enjoyable for me all the way around. The Epi is my favorite ride to date.................., however, its a pricey frame and the belt has gotten a little tighter than expected lately. I've done the dangerous thing of looking into other possiblities and considerations. The MotoLite still looks like an attractive contender and seems to have a loyal following. The Moto II price gets close to that of an Epi frame and might not be worth considering given how much I liked the Epi but the standard Moto is definitely a less painful financial layout.
    Does anyone have experience riding the Epi and MotoLite frames? If so, would you mind sharing your impressions of both in way of performance comparisons? I cannot seem to find a local Titus demo program and don't really want to have another shop literally ship me a bike to demo.
    Here's the bio: 5'10", 165lb. Aggressive XC, all mountain rider who likes good climbing efficiency. Not strictly technical climbs. Enjoy single track and technical downhills.
    Thanks for any input.
    This is not going to make your decision any easier, but I've had a chance to ride a Motolite
    not the newest version, but generally the same bike geometrywise and otherwise.
    The handling is awesome except for real tight steep granny climbs where it gets hard to
    keep the front end planted. The Epi's climbing angles are better, although I have not
    ridden an Ells. It seems, from the research I've done anyway, that there is some bogus
    marketing behind ICT, which has made me question whether its really worth paying all
    that extra money for an Ells when the classic strut based horst link design seems to be
    very well regarded by everybody. An alternative to the Motolite that has the same design
    but beefier tubing and (they claim anyway) a steeper, more normal handling on climbs
    seat angle would be the Chumba XCL The frame is about 1/2 lb heavier than the ML.
    I'm seriously considering one, but havent made my mind up yet. I'm basically in the same
    boat as you.

  3. #3
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    epi is my choice

    i had the same problem last november. I didn't know which one to get, the epi or the motolite. there is only 1 distributor of ellsworth and titus here in manila so i asked the dealer which one is better. I told them that I am not a bike techie and i don't know all the technical stuff so i asked the bike dealer to talk to me in lay man's terms. basically, this is what they said: both go up and down the mountain very well but the motolite goes up faster because of the frame design while the epi goes down faster because of the plush suspension. I opted for the epi and i have no regrets hope this helps

  4. #4
    MountainGoat aka OldGoat
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    D&D,
    I have both bikes you are considering. If you do a search of some of my posts you will find a brief side by side comparison of the two bikes. Iíve had more time on the Epiphany since my comparison and I like the bike more and more every day.
    It sounds like money is a factor you are looking at in the purchase. The bikes are so similar I would push you towards the ML. You will not go wrong with the Titus. It flat out is a great bike. The Ellsworth is also a great bike it just costs more.
    Hope this helps! Let me know if you need specific questions answered.
    Vote with your feet.
    No bike is perfect!

  5. #5
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    If money is an issue, I second the the Chumba XCL (even if it's not an issue!)...same Horst design as the other two bikes (generally) but in a bit stronger package and a nice price. This year's model will be 5" of travel and designed around the current crop of 140mm forks like the Pike and Fox 32s. I believe rear travel on the Epi is 120mm and so the real sweet spot up front is about 120mm, too, which, IMO, is too short for a good 5" trail bike...

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by chad1433
    If money is an issue, I second the the Chumba XCL (even if it's not an issue!)...same Horst design as the other two bikes (generally) but in a bit stronger package and a nice price. This year's model will be 5" of travel and designed around the current crop of 140mm forks like the Pike and Fox 32s. I believe rear travel on the Epi is 120mm and so the real sweet spot up front is about 120mm, too, which, IMO, is too short for a good 5" trail bike...
    Rear travel on Epi is 5.25". This bike climbs amazingly, when I'm not crying about being out of shape...

    As for considering the Moto II over the Moto I, I prefer to avoid carbon as much as possible on Mt. bikes, so in my opinion, the Moto one looks to be the better of the two Titus's
    Hydrate or Die Trying

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by pachaven
    D&D,
    I have both bikes you are considering. If you do a search of some of my posts you will find a brief side by side comparison of the two bikes. Iíve had more time on the Epiphany since my comparison and I like the bike more and more every day.
    It sounds like money is a factor you are looking at in the purchase. The bikes are so similar I would push you towards the ML. You will not go wrong with the Titus. It flat out is a great bike. The Ellsworth is also a great bike it just costs more.
    Hope this helps! Let me know if you need specific questions answered.
    So pachaven, now that you've had more time on the Epi, which would you opt for
    on a long trail ride with as much time going up as going down ?
    Is there any difference in pedaling efficiency between the two ? Is one better for tech
    climbing ?

  8. #8
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    Thanks for the input

    The Epi is still my top choice, hands down. I've riden it, I loved it. If it weren't for the tight budget, at the moment, it would be a done deal. However, if the Motolite comes close in performance, as some have added, its hard to ignore that option as well which I could fast track now. It looks like the standard Moto is only available as a complete bike and the dealers I've talked to only offer the entry level kit. I guess they've been moving a lot of these completes and many are out of stock. The Chumba XCL looks like a nice frame too but it appears to lack the standover of the Epi and the Motolite. I could be wrong but judging from the pix I've seen so far. The 2 year warranty seems a little lean too but I might have to take a closer look anyway.
    I really appreciate the honest feedback on the Motolite on this forum. If money were no object I wouldn't even be having this discussion. Whatever feedback you've got is welcome.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Down n Dirty
    The Epi is still my top choice, hands down. I've riden it, I loved it. If it weren't for the tight budget, at the moment, it would be a done deal. However, if the Motolite comes close in performance, as some have added, its hard to ignore that option as well which I could fast track now. It looks like the standard Moto is only available as a complete bike and the dealers I've talked to only offer the entry level kit. I guess they've been moving a lot of these completes and many are out of stock. The Chumba XCL looks like a nice frame too but it appears to lack the standover of the Epi and the Motolite. I could be wrong but judging from the pix I've seen so far. The 2 year warranty seems a little lean too but I might have to take a closer look anyway.
    I really appreciate the honest feedback on the Motolite on this forum. If money were no object I wouldn't even be having this discussion. Whatever feedback you've got is welcome.
    One thing to be aware of is the standard Moto is only available with an rp2, so youre only
    choices are full on or full off. It would seem to me that if you climb a lot the Epi geometry
    would make for better handling. Check out Rbikes, you can get a budget build for a very
    reasonable price. As far as Chumba goes, their completes start as 2800, not too much
    above what the Moto complete goes for.
    2 year warranty is pretty standard in the industry.
    Ellsworth and Titus are both 2 years as well.

  10. #10
    MountainGoat aka OldGoat
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    Quote Originally Posted by le_buzz
    So pachaven, now that you've had more time on the Epi, which would you opt for
    on a long trail ride with as much time going up as going down ?
    Is there any difference in pedaling efficiency between the two ? Is one better for tech
    climbing ?
    Well since you're calling me on it, I would pick the Epiphany. But the choice is hard to make. They are very good bikes, the two of them. I can't give efficiency of one over the other they both are great.
    Vote with your feet.
    No bike is perfect!

  11. #11
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    Screw Titus...they forced out the founder of the company and produce the Moto in Taiwan...Get the Ellsworth.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAINpusher
    Rear travel on Epi is 5.25". This bike climbs amazingly, when I'm not crying about being out of shape...

    As for considering the Moto II over the Moto I, I prefer to avoid carbon as much as possible on Mt. bikes, so in my opinion, the Moto one looks to be the better of the two Titus's
    Moto Lite was designed to be a trail bike, a long travel XC bike. The carbon seat stays (and rocker arms) serve the purpose. (we are not talking about mountain like, dropping 10m height, right?). Another issue is anodizing on the Al Moto II frame.

    BTW, Epi was also in my list prior to choosing a moto lite. Money is no problem. Performance should be very close (thanks for the nice review, pac). My advice, when getting 2 comparable things with very close performance: factor in "look" because you are going to look at it for almost every day, and see if your riding style can adapt to the design.
    I believe Epi is one great frame, but the look doesnt grow on me. It does on pac (right, friend?)
    I have yet to put many mileage on the Moto, but from such limited riding time, it is very agile, and just blend nicely to my riding style; highly promising.
    As for style adaptation, Id like to share a story: I love tennis & use old Estusa rackets (Puma ProVantage). Many people tried & didnt like them, but it suits my style very very well. So, test ride them personally.

    As for Taiwan or no Taiwan: I believe most bars are made in Taiwan (incl. Easton). Ells specs their bike in their website with FSA, made in Taiwan. The highly praised SRAM are made in Taiwan. The ultra light crank bros Ti are made in Taiwan. The computers Ells designed their bikes with contains components made in Taiwan.
    As long as they are made nicely & with high precision, I dont think it matters where the things are made. I mean, it is an equipment full of technology to maximize your riding pleasure, not a status symbol like Panerai watches or Maserati Quattroporte parked in the garage

  13. #13
    MountainGoat aka OldGoat
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    Quote Originally Posted by paneristi
    but the look doesnt grow on me. It does on pac (right, friend?)
    Yeah you got me on that one. I have the Epiphany so nice to my eyes now, it makes riding it more fun.
    Vote with your feet.
    No bike is perfect!

  14. #14
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    I'm not concerned about the quality of Taiwanese products - it's very good. I'm concerned about the principle of it. If aluminum grew on rubber trees in Taiwan and they could make the best bikes because they had the best materials, it would make sense. It doesn't make sense to ship Al to them so they can shape and weld it (something we could do here) just to sell it back to us at a much higher cost. That's like "dumb" 101.

    Plus...no one seems to want to talk about the demise of Chris Cocalis...

    Anyway, check this out - a totally superb alternative should the need arise:

    '07 5 inch travel XCL!

  15. #15
    thats right living legend
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    The Epi is a flexy ninny compared to a Moto-Lite, which can be built as light as all hell and XC raced, or run with a coil shock and up to a 145mm TA fork.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    The Epi is a flexy ninny compared to a Moto-Lite:
    Hey Black,
    What makes you say that?
    Vote with your feet.
    No bike is perfect!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by pachaven
    Hey Black,
    What makes you say that?
    You can't even run a PIKE on an Epi.

    Ya want a light fast 5" race-y type trail bike, go Epi... or ML! Ya want a tough, nimble do it all, short travel AM bike, go Moto!!!

  18. #18
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    Titus suks man.....cuz this guy sez so!

    2007 Motolite Design Problem?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    Titus suks man.....cuz this guy sez so!

    2007 Motolite Design Problem?
    Oh! I didn't relize "he" said so?

    Please disregard my former posts.

  20. #20
    thats right living legend
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    double douche
    Last edited by blackagness; 04-12-2007 at 08:45 PM.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by chad1433
    Screw Titus...they forced out the founder of the company and produce the Moto in Taiwan...Get the Ellsworth.
    I can see we are all grown up . I'm in Australia so it's funny hearing about American's whinge about where bikes are made . How do you know Chris was forced out ?~? Did you speak with him directly ?~?

    Down n Dirty, I would recommend getting the bike you want. I know it's hard being a bit short of money and having to settle for something else. If you want and like the Epi I would get it. Trying to save a few hundred dollars and getting the cheaper bike is not worth it in the long run. Time is a funny thing... it seems to heal the financial wounds when you first made your purchase.... (well you may still be in debt).... but you start to think about other bikes and maybe I should sell and get a ______.... or upgrade this and that. It truly is hard to afford a bike and I have learned many lessons over the years trying to save money on a purchase and end up spending much more later to get what I wanted anyways.

    Really I'm trying to say is get the bike you truly want . If you are a bit short then try to wait and save a bit more because I think it's worth it in the long term. Increase a loan or do what you have too with the laws of course . Just get the frame you want so you can enjoy it for years to come !~!

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by All Mountain
    I can see we are all grown up . I'm in Australia so it's funny hearing about American's whinge about where bikes are made . How do you know Chris was forced out ?~? Did you speak with him directly ?~?
    I read his interview somewhere...he sounded less than happy about the change.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by chad1433
    I read his interview somewhere...he sounded less than happy about the change.
    Maybe so but he is a grown up boy and it was his choice. And he made it.

    To me reading between the lines it was more like the pains of letting go of your child... he may have truly felt it was best business decision to leave and did the right thing for the business... but it's hard to get over letting go of a child emotionally. It was a business decision that carried well into his private and personal life.

    I haven't spoke with him, so those are my thoughts. There are many companies around the world where the founder has left. It's business. But we can all imagine that it's more than business to a founder of a company... it was a life. There will be personal pain associated with a founder's departure that he will have to deal with.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by All Mountain
    Maybe so but he is a grown up boy and it was his choice. And he made it.

    To me reading between the lines it was more like the pains of letting go of your child... he may have truly felt it was best business decision to leave and did the right thing for the business... but it's hard to get over letting go of a child emotionally. It was a business decision that carried well into his private and personal life.

    I haven't spoke with him, so those are my thoughts. There are many companies around the world where the founder has left. It's business. But we can all imagine that it's more than business to a founder of a company... it was a life. There will be personal pain associated with a founder's departure that he will have to deal with.
    He was put in a corner like an insignificant part of the business. He no longer had control of the business he began. Sugar coat it all you want, but he sold his soul to the devil to have fancy carbon bits and the contract came due. From what I read, he didn't decide to leave...but he could only have stayed as low man on the totem pole.

    So Titus as a company has lost its heart and soul in my eyes. That kind of corporate BS should have consequences. Chris Cocalis designed those bikes and now someone else is getting paid. I would never buy one, even if they were made out of solid freakin' gold.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by chad1433
    He was put in a corner like an insignificant part of the business. He no longer had control of the business he began. Sugar coat it all you want, but he sold his soul to the devil to have fancy carbon bits and the contract came due. From what I read, he didn't decide to leave...but he could only have stayed as low man on the totem pole.

    So Titus as a company has lost its heart and soul in my eyes. That kind of corporate BS should have consequences. Chris Cocalis designed those bikes and now someone else is getting paid. I would never buy one, even if they were made out of solid freakin' gold.
    Titus has not lost it's heart and soul. Maybe you should go and visit their little digs one day... they are fully committed to the cause of being for the rider and about the rider.

    So you were privy to Chris's exit contract and know what the conditions are ?~? Don't make exaggerations you cannot support. You have no idea what monetary conditions Chris was left with.

    I am not sure why you are so worked up over this. Please stop spreading misleading information that you do not know first hand.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    You can't even run a PIKE on an Epi.
    Where does it say you can't run a Pike on an EPI? Not trying to call you out or say you're wrong, but I've never heard that before.

    btw...have you ever ridden an Epi?

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by RACERX70
    Where does it say you can't run a Pike on an EPI? Not trying to call you out or say you're wrong, but I've never heard that before.

    btw...have you ever ridden an Epi?
    I read it confirmed by the Ells guy on this boarde.

    Do a search.

  28. #28
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    I've seen a few Epi builds that use a PIKE. Check out the Epi Setup database. I've heard people rave about the PIKE's performance on the Epi.

    blackagness- what reason did the Ellsworth guy give for not being able to run the fork?

  29. #29
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    I think I've read a test about the epi with a pike in a mtb-mag from New Zealand and they were pretty impressed by its performance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canada Menti
    I've seen a few Epi builds that use a PIKE. Check out the Epi Setup database. I've heard people rave about the PIKE's performance on the Epi.

    blackagness- what reason did the Ellsworth guy give for not being able to run the fork?

    agness is a typical flame baiter......shows up here, slams the Epi for being a "flexy ninny" and says you can't even run a Pike! How does he know these fact's???? He read it on a message board of course...so it must be true!!!!!! bwhahaha.

    I give people like him "0" credibility. Comes on here slamming a bike he's probably never even ridden(if he did, his Asian built, fake Titus, Moto-Lite, would be up for sale)

    What a turd!

  31. #31
    thats right living legend
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    Quote Originally Posted by RACERX70
    agness is a typical flame baiter......shows up here, slams the Epi for being a "flexy ninny" and says you can't even run a Pike! How does he know these fact's???? He read it on a message board of course...so it must be true!!!!!! bwhahaha.

    I give people like him "0" credibility. Comes on here slamming a bike he's probably never even ridden(if he did, his Asian built, fake Titus, Moto-Lite, would be up for sale)

    What a turd!
    Slow down there bud. I'm not trying to "flame bait" I did read it here on this board where some guy mentioned that a TA fork voids the warrenty, and the Ells guy came on and confirmed it. Now I'm just going by memeory here so mabye it was more like "we never intendeid for a TA fork to be run on this bike but we'll cover it"? I'll go run a search myself, if I'm mistaken I apolagize.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by pachaven
    Well since you're calling me on it, I would pick the Epiphany. But the choice is hard to make. They are very good bikes, the two of them. I can't give efficiency of one over the other they both are great.
    I still can't believe you own both bikes !~! Goodonya

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    The Epi is a flexy ninny compared to a Moto-Lite, which can be built as light as all hell and XC raced, or run with a coil shock and up to a 145mm TA fork.

    I test rode a Moto the other day, loads of flex. Plus the paint was already flaking...
    "but I do not see anything in the world of suspension methods that is superior to the 4 Bar.

    Dave Turner


  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zakster
    I test rode a Moto the other day, loads of flex. Plus the paint was already flaking...
    fair dinkum heh !~! .... she'll be right mate, bob's you're uncle they make them anno now .


    Edit: finally !~!

    and my paint is still sticking
    Last edited by All Mountain; 04-13-2007 at 05:55 AM.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    I read it confirmed by the Ells guy on this boarde.

    Do a search.
    Actually, I argued with them over this and they admitted that you CAN run a Pike...you do a search.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by All Mountain
    Titus has not lost it's heart and soul. Maybe you should go and visit their little digs one day... they are fully committed to the cause of being for the rider and about the rider.

    So you were privy to Chris's exit contract and know what the conditions are ?~? Don't make exaggerations you cannot support. You have no idea what monetary conditions Chris was left with.

    I am not sure why you are so worked up over this. Please stop spreading misleading information that you do not know first hand.
    You're right...it's all about the money

  37. #37
    thats right living legend
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    Quote Originally Posted by chad1433
    Actually, I argued with them over this and they admitted that you CAN run a Pike...you do a search.
    My apologies.

    Didn't mean to make a factual statment that was unfounded... I hate that.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zakster
    I test rode a Moto the other day, loads of flex. Plus the paint was already flaking...
    Yeah sure.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by chad1433
    He was put in a corner like an insignificant part of the business. He no longer had control of the business he began. Sugar coat it all you want, but he sold his soul to the devil to have fancy carbon bits and the contract came due. From what I read, he didn't decide to leave...but he could only have stayed as low man on the totem pole.

    So Titus as a company has lost its heart and soul in my eyes. That kind of corporate BS should have consequences. Chris Cocalis designed those bikes and now someone else is getting paid. I would never buy one, even if they were made out of solid freakin' gold.
    Id rather say whether hes sad, angry, or even happy, it is our very own interpretation as outsiders, and his leaving his own company was the option he chose. Corporate life has never been easy (read: always dirty), especially if it is a growing one. I would treat Titus as a corporate to take care of the bike I like, which was designed by a great man.

    Cocalis is a respectable person in mtb world, and he designed the bike with many design aspects my ideal bike would be.
    I was able to ask him prior to my purchase of Moto, and he still seemed proud of his design, and interested in explaining some simple technical things, even if Titus is no longer him. That, really made him an even more respectable man in my head.

    As for you calling the sugar coated story of carbon BS; Ellsworth, RMB, Yeti, do have CF bits on some of their current products, too. Theyre serving the customers' interest & protecting their own market share. If Epi is my choice, I still will get it even if Tony bangs 100 whores /day, or make friend with Osama-sh1thead, or even produced his bikes in some unknown tiny island.

    BTW, are you trying to give your opinion about Epi & Moto ride comparison, or just a brand fanatic?

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by paneristi
    Id rather say whether hes sad, angry, or even happy, it is our very own interpretation as outsiders, and his leaving his own company was the option he chose. Corporate life has never been easy (read: always dirty), especially if it is a growing one. I would treat Titus as a corporate to take care of the bike I like, which was designed by a great man.

    Cocalis is a respectable person in mtb world, and he designed the bike with many design aspects my ideal bike would be.
    I was able to ask him prior to my purchase of Moto, and he still seemed proud of his design, and interested in explaining some simple technical things, even if Titus is no longer him. That, really made him an even more respectable man in my head.

    As for you calling the sugar coated story of carbon BS; Ellsworth, RMB, Yeti, do have CF bits on some of their current products, too. Theyre serving the customers' interest & protecting their own market share. If Epi is my choice, I still will get it even if Tony bangs 100 whores /day, or make friend with Osama-sh1thead, or even produced his bikes in some unknown tiny island.

    BTW, are you trying to give your opinion about Epi & Moto ride comparison, or just a brand fanatic?
    It's not about carbon fiber as a bike material...Titus outsourced or rather "merged" in order to produce carbon fiber stuff for their bikes...this is the decision that led to the demise of the FOUNDER of the company. Had he not done this, he would not have had to leave or chosen to, I'd bet.

    Quote Originally Posted by paneristi
    ...I still will get it even if Tony bangs 100 whores /day, or make friend with Osama-sh1thead, or even produced his bikes in some unknown tiny island
    Really?

    I don't care about either bike in the end...I wouldn't buy either. The Epiphany is too high priced for what it is and the Moto Lite comes with a lot of social baggage that I'm not willing to commit to. These decisions are for you to make. I offer only commentary.

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    I think Epi was designed to be a lightweight long travel bike, just like a Moto Lite.
    I dont think fitting aPike on an Epi would hurt at all except for weight, but if I own an Epi and want TA, I would go Pace RC41; simple, neat, light...yummy

    epipace.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    Yeah sure.
    yep, a demo green one in Scotland. Obviously my statement isn't true but yours is
    "but I do not see anything in the world of suspension methods that is superior to the 4 Bar.

    Dave Turner


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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    Slow down there bud. I'm not trying to "flame bait" I did read it here on this board where some guy mentioned that a TA fork voids the warrenty, and the Ells guy came on and confirmed it. Now I'm just going by memeory here so mabye it was more like "we never intendeid for a TA fork to be run on this bike but we'll cover it"? I'll go run a search myself, if I'm mistaken I apolagize.
    Not sure I believe that...it should be on their site and it's not. Heresay is worthless.

    Here is what I found...max axle to crown for a moment and Id is <600 mm. For whatever reason, they don't have the Epi in the table yet. The pike has an axle to crown of 522 mm I believe which is way under 600 mm and I'm sure under the limit for the Epi. The Epi allows forks to 140 mm of travel so the axle to crown might be less that 600 mm but surely not 78 mm less. Maybe a lyrik, which can have up to 160 mm of travel it what was spoke of but even that has only a 550 mm axle to crown, which based on the table, would be allowed on an Epi.

    http://store.ellsworthbikes.com/help/default.aspx#


    The only other note I saw on the Ells site is about using fox 36 forks on a moment and needing a deep headset.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chad1433
    Harlious, So intended use is a factor...that is so silly.

    So I'm going to put a fox vanilla on a truth, run it at 100 mm....

    ..........but do pro 4x racing on it!


    So does that mean a 100 mm fork is not recommended????

    But notice it's all about the word 'Recommended"

    Funny enough, I never felt like the pike is a free ride fork...it's simply all mountain.
    Last edited by lidarman; 04-13-2007 at 12:39 PM.

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    It seems to me that by using the term "recommended" they cannot enforce any sort of warranty denials. They don't say "don't" use this or that...so I guess we can do what we want.

    They really just need to do the structural testing on this and tell us what it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zakster
    yep, a demo green one in Scotland. Obviously my statement isn't true but yours is

    If you really demoed a ML, and found ANY flex in that frame than you don't know what flex fels like PERIOD!

    BTW a TA PIKE is fine if not encoureged by Titus for the ML, along with a coil shock.

    Not that the Epi isn't a great bike, and def a BEAUTIFUL one. Is it a bettter trail bike than the ML "which is def it's intended use as well" could be but I'm very happy with my Moto.... but again, you can't look at the Epi and not just say DAMN!!!

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by chad1433
    It seems to me that by using the term "recommended" they cannot enforce any sort of warranty denials. They don't say "don't" use this or that...so I guess we can do what we want.

    They really just need to do the structural testing on this and tell us what it is.
    Exactly.

    What I think makes Ellsworth sweat is those forks like the fox vanilla and Manitou Black adjustable 95-120 shocks, where one can run the travel really long on a Truth frame, exceed the a2i and if it breaks, make a claim the fork was run in short travel mode.

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    OK, go ahead, run the wrong A/C fork, break the frame just to screw somebody. Great idea. Wonder why a good frame cost $2500 ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chad1433
    It's not about carbon fiber as a bike material...Titus outsourced or rather "merged" in order to produce carbon fiber stuff for their bikes...this is the decision that led to the demise of the FOUNDER of the company. Had he not done this, he would not have had to leave or chosen to, I'd bet.



    Really?

    I don't care about either bike in the end...I wouldn't buy either. The Epiphany is too high priced for what it is and the Moto Lite comes with a lot of social baggage that I'm not willing to commit to. These decisions are for you to make. I offer only commentary.
    I brought up these issues on the Titus forum a while back and got BikerBob panties
    in a whirl over the mere suggestion that some of the new Titus management's
    social ethics might not be crystal clean. You can google Viatec and then google the name
    of the new CEO to find out, I'm not gonna bother to rehash it here.
    I would not necessarily let that keep me from buying a Titus, but I do like to be an
    imformed consumer, so I tend to want to know more about the products I'm buying and
    what I'm supporting by buying them. I will never buy another thing at WalMart no matter
    how cheap it is.
    mi

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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieAAAA
    OK, go ahead, run the wrong A/C fork, break the frame just to screw somebody. Great idea. Wonder why a good frame cost $2500 ?
    That doesn't make any sense Eddie. Your argument implies that people are doing it, thus why we pay so much.

    Good frames cost $2500 because they can charge that much.

    Good frames can cost just over a $1000 too.

    http://www.transitionbikes.com/2007/Covert_Pricing.cfm

    Anyone who runs the wrong a2c is doing themselves a disservice actually..bikes tend to ride funny and if it does break, they are putting themselves at risk. The usual reason people run the wrong size a2c is ignorance.

    Not that it hasn't happened, but I have yet to see an ellsworth break due to a fork that was too long. The zillions that have were all at the rocker or the chainstay.

    Thus, it doesn't appear that many people run long forks, and even if they are, they aren't breaking enough frames to hear about it...but yes, the bikes are being sold for $2500. Just not for that reason.

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    RACERX70, you seem to be a guy that was once in the Titus camp
    but has now switched to Ells. Can you give us your thoughts on the reesons for
    your switch ? Is there really something to the ICT claims of increased pedaling
    efficiency over a classic horst design like the RX/Motolite ? Is handling, feeling on
    long climbs better with the Epi ?

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by le_buzz
    I brought up these issues on the Titus forum a while back and got BikerBob panties
    in a whirl over the mere suggestion that some of the new Titus management's
    social ethics might not be crystal clean. You can google Viatec and then google the name
    of the new CEO to find out, I'm not gonna bother to rehash it here.
    I would not necessarily let that keep me from buying a Titus, but I do like to be an
    imformed consumer, so I tend to want to know more about the products I'm buying and
    what I'm supporting by buying them. I will never buy another thing at WalMart no matter
    how cheap it is.
    mi
    Are you the jackoff that said Titus supports weapons of mas distruction?

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    Are you the jackoff that said Titus supports weapons of mas distruction?
    Yeah, if you wanna put it that way. I never said Titus currently supports WMDs.
    I simply noted that the new CEO comes from a nuclear weapons industry background, before he started Viatek. Some people may not like that. I certainly would not buy a Titus if
    I thought he had current ties to the defense industry. For a similar reason I would not work
    at Raytheon Missile Systems, the biggest emplpoyer here in Tucson, even though the jobs
    pay very well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by le_buzz
    Yeah, if you wanna put it that way. I never said Titus currently supports WMDs.
    I simply noted that the new CEO comes from a nuclear weapons industry background, before he started Viatek. Some people may not like that. I certainly would not buy a Titus if
    I thought he had current ties to the defense industry. For a similar reason I would not work
    at Raytheon Missile Systems, the biggest emplpoyer here in Tucson, even though the jobs
    pay very well.
    You would prolly hate me then. I worked for a nuclear weapons national lab and designed laser blinding weapons way back when. I have no issue with the work I was doing. The execution of technology is where the real issue is, not the developement of it. But that is my opinion. So I guess we won't be riding together.

    Because based on your philosphy, working for a micro chip company like Motorola has ethical issues since microprocessors are used in nuclear weapons.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by le_buzz
    Yeah, if you wanna put it that way. I never said Titus currently supports WMDs.
    I simply noted that the new CEO comes from a nuclear weapons industry background, before he started Viatek. Some people may not like that. I certainly would not buy a Titus if
    I thought he had current ties to the defense industry. For a similar reason I would not work
    at Raytheon Missile Systems, the biggest emplpoyer here in Tucson, even though the jobs
    pay very well.

    Than your an ungratful little $hit, that dosen't appreciate those that create fight and defend your right to be a complete jackoff!

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    Back to topic????

    This thread is starting to remind me of what happened when I solicited opinions on the Turner forum. BTW, has anyone riden the Chumba XCL? Iīve been giving that beast a look per this boards recommendation. How does the XCL outperform the Epi?

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Down n Dirty
    This thread is starting to remind me of what happened when I solicited opinions on the Turner forum. BTW, has anyone riden the Chumba XCL? Iīve been giving that beast a look per this boards recommendation. How does the XCL outperform the Epi?
    Check out the custom and other manufacturer boards for info...Chumba's look like great bikes.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by le_buzz
    RACERX70, you seem to be a guy that was once in the Titus camp
    but has now switched to Ells. Can you give us your thoughts on the reesons for
    your switch ? Is there really something to the ICT claims of increased pedaling
    efficiency over a classic horst design like the RX/Motolite ? Is handling, feeling on
    long climbs better with the Epi ?

    Loved my Titus's, especially the RacerX/HH-100. After spending five years on a 4 inch travel bike, my tastes began to change. I wanted something a little more plush, but didn't want to sacrifice much in the way of weight or the razor sharp handling of the X.

    I started out with 4 bikes on my list...the Epi, the 5.5, the 5-Spot and the Moto-Lite. I wanted to remain loyal to Titus, but in all honesty, the Taiwan thing was a big turn-off for me. I always liked the small botique, built in-house image of Titus, especially since their products were such amazing performers. In my opinon, they lost their edge with the Chis C. firing and the Taiwan thing. I elliminated the Moto-Lite pretty much right away because of the afforementioned and also because of fit, I was in-between sizes.

    Anyway, I ultimatley decided on the Epi, not so much because of the ICT, but because of it had everthing I was looking for.....more of an X/C-ish geometry, 5+ in. travel, light weight and an awesome finish. I've been on the bike 9 months now and have zero regrets. If I had to do it all over again, the Epi would still be at the top of my list.

    As for comparing the ICT to the Horst---it's sort of subjective and depends on the person.
    My Racer X had a Pushed Float R and my Epi has a Pushed RP23. The primary difference i've noticed, is the HL is not as plush and doesn't soak up the roughs like the ICT, but seems to be a little snappier during accelleration. The ICT is plusher but seems to bob just a skosh more. I prefer the ICT for the terrain I ride, which is fairly rocky. The Epi definitley climbs and decends the rough stuff better than my RX did, but it also has more travel. With equal amounts of travel, I would still give the nod to the ICT. It just seems to be able to find that extra bit of traction on the techy climbs and absorbs the the hits better on the way down.

    All that being said, there are times I miss the nimbleness and the snappiness of the RX,
    but for 95% of my riding the Epi and the ICT fit the bill perfectly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    Than your an ungratful little $hit, that dosen't appreciate those that create fight and defend your right to be a complete jackoff!
    Sorry, bub,
    nuclear weapons have nothing to do with defending me. I'm grateful to the people that
    fought and died in WW2 defending my freedom.
    Did we need to use nukes to win that war ?
    Absolutely not. The Japanese were already defeated. Using nukes brought a speedier end
    to that war, but also made the world a much more dangerous place, since then every
    country wanted them, and, as you know, nuclear weappons have proliferated since then,
    starting with the Russians, who stole the technology from us, and on and on.
    I think nuclear technology for energy is not a bad thing, and is a better alternative to coal
    plants that cause global warming causing pollution, but using it for weapons just because
    you can ? Why, what's the point, its such overkill. Its insane really.
    Maybe you should think more about consequences than just blind knee-jerk patriotism.

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    You should worry that Bush mightwant to nuke Iran to solve both the Iran problem and the global warming, via one theory of huge particulates in the atmosphere to block sunlight...IE nuclear winter.


    This is just as revelent in this thread as the other random posts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    You would prolly hate me then. I worked for a nuclear weapons national lab and designed laser blinding weapons way back when. I have no issue with the work I was doing. The execution of technology is where the real issue is, not the developement of it. But that is my opinion. So I guess we won't be riding together.

    Because based on your philosphy, working for a micro chip company like Motorola has ethical issues since microprocessors are used in nuclear weapons.
    I dont hate anybody. I respect your right to do what you do.
    If you have no problem morally or ethically with it, then thats your decision.
    I'm not trying to judge you for that.
    I'm just saying, for me, I couldn't work for a company like Raytheon that manufactures WMDs.
    If they were used to kill innocent people, then part of that would be my responsibility.
    In the first few days of the Iraq war, tens of thousands of innocents were killed by
    Raytheon's Tomahawk cruise missiles during the shock and awe campaign.

    I wouldn't extend it beyond that, though. I wouldn't have a problem working for a chip
    company, since chips have multiple uses besides the one you stated.
    I wouldn't have a problem working for a company that made stuff that helped protect
    our troops, either. I wouldn't necessarily have a problem riding with you.
    On occasions I ride with a guy who contracts with a company that makes
    fighter jets. I dont have a problem with what he does, and hes a great guy.
    We dont discuss his work but that doesnt matter. I think hes open minded enough to
    see both sides. Thats all I ask of you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by le_buzz
    starting with the Russians, who stole the technology from us, and on and on.
    Ahh the American version of history - don't ya just love it!!

    I think you'll find the yanks and ruskies nicked most stuff from the Germans and British.
    "but I do not see anything in the world of suspension methods that is superior to the 4 Bar.

    Dave Turner


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    Quote Originally Posted by le_buzz
    I dont hate anybody. I respect your right to do what you do.
    If you have no problem morally or ethically with it, then thats your decision.
    I'm not trying to judge you for that.
    I'm just saying, for me, I couldn't work for a company like Raytheon that manufactures WMDs.
    If they were used to kill innocent people, then part of that would be my responsibility.
    In the first few days of the Iraq war, tens of thousands of innocents were killed by
    Raytheon's Tomahawk cruise missiles during the shock and awe campaign.

    I wouldn't extend it beyond that, though. I wouldn't have a problem working for a chip
    company, since chips have multiple uses besides the one you stated.
    I wouldn't have a problem working for a company that made stuff that helped protect
    our troops, either. I wouldn't necessarily have a problem riding with you.
    On occasions I ride with a guy who contracts with a company that makes
    fighter jets. I dont have a problem with what he does, and hes a great guy.
    We dont discuss his work but that doesnt matter. I think hes open minded enough to
    see both sides. Thats all I ask of you.
    What kind of blinders to you wear????

    Raytheon makes more than just missiles to kill people. And any company who make things to protect troops are just as guilty (based on your logic of course) as the companies who make bullets......why? Because it implements the ablilty to have war. Think about it. Camelbak makes packs for troops so troops can go fight a war...and kill people. That is supporting war...Doesn't matter if the camelbak just carries water. It's an enabler technology.

    If you choose to live in denial about it, go ahead...but don't think that others read your words and buy into your silly logic.

    Please, take a class in logic before you spit out this crazy tripe...and realize the world is grey not black and white.

    Asking me to be open minded???..OMG...you have no chance....I'm as close minded as it can get.
    Last edited by lidarman; 04-14-2007 at 02:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RACERX70
    As for comparing the ICT to the Horst---it's sort of subjective and depends on the person.
    My Racer X had a Pushed Float R and my Epi has a Pushed RP23. The primary difference i've noticed, is the HL is not as plush and doesn't soak up the roughs like the ICT, but seems to be a little snappier during accelleration. The ICT is plusher but seems to bob just a skosh more. I prefer the ICT for the terrain I ride, which is fairly rocky. The Epi definitley climbs and decends the rough stuff better than my RX did, but it also has more travel. With equal amounts of travel, I would still give the nod to the ICT. It just seems to be able to find that extra bit of traction on the techy climbs and absorbs the the hits better on the way down.

    All that being said, there are times I miss the nimbleness and the snappiness of the RX,
    but for 95% of my riding the Epi and the ICT fit the bill perfectly.
    Your riding sounds a lot like the kind of riding I do. More to the side of XC than AM, but
    with lots of rough, loose rocky climbs and descents.
    One of my top considerations is can the bike stay hooked up in the rough stuff.
    Maybe I sould give the Epi another look, although it is priced a little steep for me, it is
    made in the good ol' USA and they tend to cost a bit more.

    By the way, what does having the rear shock 'Pushed' do ? Do you get some kind of performance benefits from doing that ?
    you get from doing that ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zakster
    Ahh the American version of history - don't ya just love it!!

    I think you'll find the yanks and ruskies nicked most stuff from the Germans and British.
    No kidding...someone needs to learn history. Most of the main scientist in the Manhattan project were Germans.

    Zakster...it's not the American version, educated americans know the truth. That history is the "Archie Bunker" version


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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    No kidding...someone needs to learn history. Most of the main scientist in the Manhattan project were Germans.

    Zakster...it's not the American version, educated americans know the truth. That history is the "Archie Bunker" version


    What a LAUGH!!! Are you impying that the British ever came up with anything Americans would ever go through the trouble to steal!

    And no $hit the Germans helped deveolope the bomb, EVERYBODY knows that! It's just our Germans were better than thier Germans.

    "Archie Bunker version of history" PAAAALLLEASSSSE! The so callled Archie Bunker version of history as you call it "which was written AT THE TIME!", is faaarrrrrr closer to the truth than the revisionist history your little powder puff elitest commie professors would ever want you to believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    What kind of blinders to you wear????

    Raytheon makes more than just missiles to kill people. And any company who make things to protect troops are just as guilty (based on your logic of course) as the companies who make bullets......why? Because it implements the ablilty to have war. Think about it. Camelbak makes packs for troops so troops can go fight a war...and kill people. That is supporting war...Doesn't matter if the camelbak just carries water. It's an enabler technology.

    If you choose to live in denial about it, go ahead...but don't think that others read your words and buy into your silly logic.

    Please, take a class in logic before you spit out this crazy tripe...and realize grey not black and white.
    You evidently dont know what my logic is. You're taking to the extreme and making ridiculous assumptions based on what you think my logic is.
    Unfortunately, as I'm sure you'll agree, sometimes you have to fight a war, so you need
    to have the necessary equipment in case that eventuality arises. There are occasions
    where that could happen. You're trying to stereotype me as being some kind of
    peacenik that would be against war for any reason.
    If we need to go to war to defend ourselves or
    our allies, I have no problem with that. I'm not supportive of wars of opportunity, but if
    we are attacked, as we were on 9/11, then I support going to war against those who
    attacked us. The only inconsistency in my position, perhaps, is, you could say, what
    about using Raytheon's missiles in a war against someone who attacked us ?
    Then I guess I could say, if thats needed, thats fine, but becuase they're used ramdomly
    and in overkill situations, as during the shock and awe campaign where Tomahawk
    Missiles killed 40,000 innocents in order to try to kill one man, I would say, no way
    would I want to be associated with that.

    Secondly,
    Raytheon's main product is ballistic missiles like the Tomahawk. If they make anything
    else it is secondary. Thats why its called Raytheon Missile Systems.
    I'm not really trying to be logical. I'm trying to be morally consistent with what I believe.
    If our troops have to fight a war one day, then they should have adequate
    protective gear that they need, which I might add, the current administration has been
    sorely lacking in providing.

    So I draw a distinction between protective gear and things whose only use is to either
    kill large numbers of people or create massive destruction.
    If you can't get your evidently peanut sized brain around that, then what can I say,
    you're lame.

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    Where Do You Get Your Numbers...

    Because every one you've quoted is complete BS. 40,000 deaths? That "shock and ah" was complete political correct CRAP! They were trying to be so precise they didn't hit jack... they didn't even knock out the Saddam TV station for goodness sake. Stop repeating that left wing propaganda drivel from MoveOn.org or wherever, they pull that garbage out of thin air.

    And another thing. The Japanese had been digging in for 10 yrs, and training , and indoctrinating every man, women, and child to fight to the death on the occasion that they were invaded. America would have literally lost perhaps hundreds of thousands had we not employed the use of the bomb.... and that's a FACT! you should look into those.



    BTW.... I appreciate your good nature, and courtesy... I just get so fed up with hearing LIES!

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    Because every one you've quoted is complete BS. 40,000 deaths? That "shock and ah" was complete political correct CRAP! They were trying to be so precise they didn't hit jack... they didn't even knock out the Saddam TV station for goodness sake. Stop repeating that left wing propaganda drivel from MoveOn.org or wherever, they pull that garbage out of thin air.

    And another thing. The Japanese had been digging in for 10 yrs, and training , and indoctrinating every man, women, and child to fight to the death on the occasion that they were invaded. America would have literally lost perhaps hundreds of thousands had we not employed the use of the bomb.... and that's a FACT! you should look into those.

    BTW.... I appreciate your good nature, and courtesy... I just get so fed up with hearing LIES!
    Oh brother, how did this thread veer so far off topic. Numerous sources have
    stated tens of thousands, one used the 40 thousand. If you're really interested I could try
    to look them up and send you something. The John Hopkins School of Public Health
    did one investigation using many methods to get reliable info, but that was for the whole
    war, not just the shock and awe, I think. There was a British Institution that made a
    similar investigation, can't remember the name, but they came up with similar numbers.
    There's also independent journalists who've done a lot of interviews and looked up
    stats on their own. So I'm not just pulling these numbers out of a hat.

    As far as the Japanese, I have heard that view and many people believe that.
    I have also heard interviews of Japanese who were around at the time that
    said that within a few months or less that they (military generals) would have been able to bring the emperor to the realization that it was futile and talk him into some kind of
    face saving surrender. Also, think of how quickly the two bombs were used, one three
    days after the other. They had no time to react to the first one before the second was
    dropped. Their communication system was destroyed.
    Perhaps we'll never know the answer to that one. I'm not saying I do, and the people
    that were around then would know better, but couldn't we have accomplished the same
    thing with conventional weapons, perhaps in less dramatic fashion ?
    Anyway, I'm no expert so I'm gonna pretend to know anything, but certainly these are
    valid questions to ask.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by le_buzz
    Oh brother, how did this thread veer so far off topic. Numerous sources have
    stated tens of thousands, one used the 40 thousand. If you're really interested I could try
    to look them up and send you something. The John Hopkins School of Public Health
    did one investigation using many methods to get reliable info, but that was for the whole
    war, not just the shock and awe, I think. There was a British Institution that made a
    similar investigation, can't remember the name, but they came up with similar numbers.
    There's also independent journalists who've done a lot of interviews and looked up
    stats on their own. So I'm not just pulling these numbers out of a hat.

    As far as the Japanese, I have heard that view and many people believe that.
    I have also heard interviews of Japanese who were around at the time that
    said that within a few months or less that they (military generals) would have been able to bring the emperor to the realization that it was futile and talk him into some kind of
    face saving surrender. Also, think of how quickly the two bombs were used, one three
    days after the other. They had no time to react to the first one before the second was
    dropped. Their communication system was destroyed.
    Perhaps we'll never know the answer to that one. I'm not saying I do, and the people
    that were around then would know better, but couldn't we have accomplished the same
    thing with conventional weapons, perhaps in less dramatic fashion ?
    Anyway, I'm no expert so I'm gonna pretend to know anything, but certainly these are
    valid questions to ask.
    Well first of all it wasn't the Emperor that was the major player, but these generals you speak of that wanted to fight to the death, and that's a fact of history. It was these generals that aptempted an over throw uppon hearing that the Emperor planed to address the nation to surrender.... see these are what's called facts.

    And regarding your numbers, if you choose to believe what people with an agenda choose to tell you, than your as hopless as all the rest of those poor misguided souls.

  72. #72
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    LMAO...I need not even rebuttal blackagness and le_buzz...

    Thanks for playing.
    Last edited by lidarman; 04-14-2007 at 05:40 PM.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    Well first of all it wasn't the Emperor that was the major player, but these generals you speak of that wanted to fight to the death, and that's a fact of history. It was these generals that aptempted an over throw uppon hearing that the Emperor planed to address the nation to surrender.... see these are what's called facts.

    And regarding your numbers, if you choose to believe what people with an agenda choose to tell you, than your as hopless as all the rest of those poor misguided souls.
    I not well enough informed to speak to your first point, I thought it was the other way around, but I will not try to offer up anything on that without doing some research.

    As far as the second, the numbers were put out by very well respected institutions
    with no agenda other than to get an estimated tally of the number of civilians killed.
    This was the result of countless research into records, interviews and other sources of info. Everything was well documented and corroborated with other sources to make sure of the correctness. There was no other way of getting that info since the US military does not count civilian deaths. Since that time, (I believe that was in 04, not sure)) more
    corroboration of those numbers has come about. Now the total Iraqi deaths estimate
    is around 600,000. Major news outlets have cited this number, I think. It includes
    all Iraqi deaths, including those killed by other Iraqis. The estimated number of
    civilians killed by the US military is around 160,000, but that number is a little old,
    so it could be a bit higher now.

    By the way, if the truth were something you didn't like, would you be interested in hearing it, or are you one of those that refuses to consider anything you dont want to believe
    is true ?

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by le_buzz
    I not well enough informed to speak to your first point, I thought it was the other way around, but I will not try to offer up anything on that without doing some research.

    As far as the second, the numbers were put out by very well respected institutions
    with no agenda other than to get an estimated tally of the number of civilians killed.
    This was the result of countless research into records, interviews and other sources of info. Everything was well documented and corroborated with other sources to make sure of the correctness. There was no other way of getting that info since the US military does not count civilian deaths. Since that time, (I believe that was in 04, not sure)) more
    corroboration of those numbers has come about. Now the total Iraqi deaths estimate
    is around 600,000. Major news outlets have cited this number, I think. It includes
    all Iraqi deaths, including those killed by other Iraqis. The estimated number of
    civilians killed by the US military is around 160,000, but that number is a little old,
    so it could be a bit higher now.

    By the way, if the truth were something you didn't like, would you be interested in hearing it, or are you one of those that refuses to consider anything you dont want to believe
    is true ?

    Do you have any idea how stupid you sound! Those organizations you speak of ARE NOT WELL RESPECTED BY A LOOOOONNNG SHOT!!! They only exist for their agenda. They could never hope to document a number like that in a place like Iraq, nor did they have any intention of doing so. It's not the truth those organizations are after my friend. It's merely the advancement of their own agenda, and how any morons they can convince that anybody that disagrees with them is evil.

    Your a Fool!

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    LMAO...I need not even rebuttal blackagness and le_buzz...

    Thanks for playing.




    Thank you. I haven't laughed that hard in a long time. HEE HEE "I need not rebuttal blackagness and le_buzz". Oh boy! Did you say that in a Mr. Howl accent? Please tell me you did.

    People with over blown opinions of themself are so funny.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    Do you have any idea how stupid you sound! Those organizations you speak of ARE NOT WELL RESPECTED BY A LOOOOONNNG SHOT!!! They only exist for their agenda. They could never hope to document a number like that in a place like Iraq, nor did they have any intention of doing so. It's not the truth those organizations are after my friend. It's merely the advancement of their own agenda, and how any morons they can convince that anybody that disagrees with them is evil.

    Your a Fool!
    blackie, you're the one who's starting to sound dumb. For your perusal, if you want to bother to read it :

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1030222029.htm

    Not a left wing rag by any means. Also:

    http://www.jhsph.edu/PublicHealthNew...nham_Iraq.html

    And this one:

    http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middl...raq_06-19.html

    pretty much echoes what I said above.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by le_buzz
    blackie, you're the one who's starting to sound dumb. For your perusal, if you want to bother to read it :

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1030222029.htm

    Not a left wing rag by any means. Also:

    http://www.jhsph.edu/PublicHealthNew...nham_Iraq.html

    And this one:

    http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middl...raq_06-19.html

    pretty much echoes what I said above.

    Dude, what alternate universe do you live in, in which those rags are not left tripe?

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    Dude, what alternate universe do you live in, in which those rags are not left tripe?
    Geez, I didnt realize those were all left tripe. What about Stanford:

    http://wais.stanford.edu/Iraq/iraq_0...liandeaths.htm

    Is anything coming out of a university left tripe ? Heres one thats not from a university:

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...NGUTLNP6C1.DTL

    Another commie organization thats not crediblr:

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../i_ins.00.html

    Here's one that talks about the lack of US media coverage of civilian casualties,
    the censorship, and the embedded reporters being the only media source for info during the Iraq hostilities, which I'm sure you wont bother to look at, but others might be
    interested:

    http://newyork.worldtribunal.org/Doc...Sarah_Leah.pdf

    Sounds like your major source of info is probably Fox News, in which case you
    probably have a very skewed picture of reality

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by le_buzz
    Geez, I didnt realize those were all left tripe. What about Stanford:

    http://wais.stanford.edu/Iraq/iraq_0...liandeaths.htm

    Is anything coming out of a university left tripe ? Here's one that's not from a university:

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...NGUTLNP6C1.DTL

    Another commie organization that's not credible:

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../i_ins.00.html

    Here's one that talks about the lack of US media coverage of civilian casualties,
    the censorship, and the embedded reporters being the only media source for info during the Iraq hostilities, which I'm sure you wont bother to look at, but others might be
    interested:

    http://newyork.worldtribunal.org/Doc...Sarah_Leah.pdf

    Sounds like your major source of info is probably Fox News, in which case you
    probably have a very skewed picture of reality

    Have you ever actually read any of this worthless BS you've put links to? I have, and I welcome anyone else to as well.... it proves my point more than you'll ever know. It's riddled with nonsensical wholes that any intelligent thinking human being would see right through with the smallest bit of scrutiny... That's something I would actually suggest you try.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    Have you ever actually read any of this worthless BS you've put links to? I have, and I welcome anyone else to as well.... it proves my point more than you'll ever know. It's riddled with nonsensical wholes that any intelligent thinking human being would see right through with the smallest bit of scrutiny... That's something I would actually suggest you try.
    I'll admit I haven't read all of it. I've read some of it and have heard some of it talked
    about on news programs. Have you looked at the methods they use to come up with the
    numbers? I did read that carefully, as I am not someone who just believes anything I hear or read. Their statistical methods have been thoroughly vetted by prestigious organizations
    such as the British Medical Journal Lancet and Zogby International.

    What are these 'nonsensical wholes' you are referring to ? I expect something specific
    coming from you now, blackie, else I'm gonna assume you're spouting off nonsensical crap yourself. If there were nonsensical wholes in it, don't you think they would have been repeated ad-nauseum by Fox News by now ?
    If you look at some of those links I posted, you'll see that people do ask questions
    about how they came up with the data - you can skim some of it yourself without
    reading the whole thing. Their methods to most seem reasonably accurate enough to get
    a ballpark estimate, perhaps not 100% accurate. The 160,000 figure comes from
    Nov. 04 and doesn't include the Fallujah attacks, as there was no way to verify the
    numbers on that.

    Believe what you want, but I encourage you to be intellectually curious enough to look
    things up yourself if you have questions about them. There is plenty of stuff that either
    doesnt get reported at all or gets underreported in the mainstream corporate media.
    There's plenty of sources/articles available on the internet - of course you have to
    sift the wheat from the chaff, but its there if you want to bother to look.

  81. #81
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    Ummm, shouldn't this be in the religious political forum or something. I think the OP just wants to know which bike rides better, not which one he can blow up the world with.

    DND, I'd recommend getting the bike that gets you excited, not only when you ride it, but when you look at it as well. In the long run you'll be wishing you spent the extra money for the thing you really wanted, instead of getting another bike because it was cheaper.
    IT'S NOT THE FALL THAT HURTS. IT'S WHEN YOU HIT THE GROUND.

  82. #82
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    Back to the Epi vs ML,

    One last thing to consider is Ellsworths are made by people
    who ride and are passionate about bikes. Tony Ellsworth himself rides.
    Titus, now after the departure of Chris C., is not run by people who
    ride bikes. The people at the top of Titus play golf. Just google
    Howard Lindsay or Pat Hus(The guy that pushed out Chris C.)
    You'll find that they're just business people. Viatek, the parent
    company of Titus, makes composite golf clubs.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by le_buzz
    Back to the Epi vs ML,

    One last thing to consider is Ellsworths are made by people
    who ride and are passionate about bikes. Tony Ellsworth himself rides.
    Titus, now after the departure of Chris C., is not run by people who
    ride bikes. The people at the top of Titus play golf. Just google
    Howard Lindsay or Pat Hus(The guy that pushed out Chris C.)
    You'll find that they're just business people. Viatek, the parent
    company of Titus, makes composite golf clubs.
    I can assure you Jeff Titone rides.... and is passionate about bikes

    All the Ti frames and rears are all made in-house in 'Zona by welders who ride like mad on bikes they made. Ride with their engineer one day... if you can keep up with him

    Titus is for the riders by the riders.

    Long Live Titus !~!

    Viatek makes all kinds of cool things.

    You guys are all hung up in CC... do you all have big posters of him up on the walls ?~?

    And, goodonya Tony E for riding

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by le_buzz
    Back to the Epi vs ML,

    One last thing to consider is Ellsworths are made by people
    who ride and are passionate about bikes. Tony Ellsworth himself rides.
    Titus, now after the departure of Chris C., is not run by people who
    ride bikes. The people at the top of Titus play golf. Just google
    Howard Lindsay or Pat Hus(The guy that pushed out Chris C.)
    You'll find that they're just business people. Viatek, the parent
    company of Titus, makes composite golf clubs.
    dude whats wrong le_buzz...........you don't know if any of that stuff is really true. why bare false witness?

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    Pare..I have a 06 truth right now, Im thinking of selling it and get an epi or the ibis mojo...which do u think would be the best bike for me? Im 5'5" 135lbs and mostly doing beyond xc rides. I feel like I want more travel going down which I dont get it from my truth but love it going up. Should I stick with my truth and go for an epi or mojo? My truth weighs 24.7lbs

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingbike
    Pare..I have a 06 truth right now, Im thinking of selling it and get an epi or the ibis mojo...which do u think would be the best bike for me? Im 5'5" 135lbs and mostly doing beyond xc rides. I feel like I want more travel going down which I dont get it from my truth but love it going up. Should I stick with my truth and go for an epi or mojo? My truth weighs 24.7lbs
    You seem to be pretty light , do you bottom out the rear shock? If you dont maybe you dont need a new frame . Perhaps a shorter stem 90mm ? and a fork with a tad bit more travel say 115mm to 120mm ( recommended by E is 105 mm max though) and offset the extra mm with a little more sag to make it plush ,could be a cheaper way to make your Truth more trail like . I suspect at 24.7 lbs its probably set up as a race bike , which is good coz its nice to have a light bike .

    After getting used to riding my Moment , I put in slightly wider bars on my truth ( compared to the xc ones too narrow ) and a shorter stem, it feels more confidence inspiring now on trails. If I did not have another bike , I probably would have tried my suggestion of a slightly longer fork . I used to have a 04 fox talas , and I set it at 115 to 120 a few times and it worked out well .

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    Thanks for the input...are u from manila?

  88. #88
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    yeah I am

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    gfF4red

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    I just started this ML vs EPi thread on the Titus forum yesterday....

    ....I have a MLII to tst for a few weeks, and i have been having problems in setting it up, so i asked the Titus forum for help.

    Thumb

  91. #91
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    Epi vs. Mojo

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingbike
    Pare..I have a 06 truth right now, Im thinking of selling it and get an epi or the ibis mojo...which do u think would be the best bike for me? Im 5'5" 135lbs and mostly doing beyond xc rides. I feel like I want more travel going down which I dont get it from my truth but love it going up. Should I stick with my truth and go for an epi or mojo? My truth weighs 24.7lbs
    I own an Epi and love the bike more every ride. A friend of mine recently picked up a Mojo which I had a chance to ride. The geometry feels very different. It was too upright for my taste and style. I like the longer top tube and lower center of gravity of the Epi better for my taste. Although the Epi Mg rocker has had some issues, Ells seems pretty stand up about replacing them with Al rockers. The longevity of the Mojo carbon frames is still a little soon to call. The Mojo build quality does appear to be first rate. If you're already riding a Truth and looking for more travel and a more relaxed head tube angle but still excellent handling and more confident downhill performance I don't see how you could go wrong with the Epi. Seems like the natural progression. If you're all legs, the Mojo geometry may be better. Ride one if you can. I think you'll figure it out pretty quickly. The two bikes geometry is quite different.

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