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  1. #1
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    Ells Wheels- What is xxx9 aluminum

    just read this info on bikerumor. i'm wondering what xxx9 aluminum is. does anybody know? is this the stuff the shuttle's made of? it sounds top quality though. i wonder if the engagement is ant better than 24 p.o.e. on the 2010 wheels

    CROSS COUNTRY: The optimal wheels for your Truth, Epiphany or other XC ride, Ellsworth’s XC wheels feature 24 spokes with special 2 cross lacing and Ellsworth’s patented Quad Butted Spokes. Our spoke design minimizes windup from breaking and pedaling with the least amount of spoke mass. Compatible with the standard QR and the new 15mm QR, these are the only wheels you’ll need for XC riding or racing.

    The XC rims are Ellsworth’s proprietary, 29mm wide, tapered wall rim that is extruded from xxx9 Aluminum. Ellsworth’s 29mm rim weighs the same as other manufacturer’s 23mm wide rims but gives you the extra strength, durability and control of a wider rim.

    The XC rim’s higher width to weight ratio also provides a larger contact patch between your tire and the ground for the same amount of weight. And since xxx9 Taper wall aluminum weighs less than rubber, you can save additional rolling weight by running a narrower tire while still getting the traction and control of a wider, heavier tire.

    Configurations:
    Front Axle-Standard QR and 15mm QR
    Rear Axle-Standard QR
    Front Rim-24 spokes, 2 cross
    Rear Rim-24 spokes, 2 cross

    Actual Weight: 1,495 grams

  2. #2
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    Patented???
    Its not the brand of the wand that matters, but the skill of the magician. (Make no mistake tho, your brand does suck butt.)

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Rider x
    Patented???
    you must be kidding. ells making these wheels themselves? i imagine they're using one of the rim manufacturers out there and having them built to thier profile. i have a hard time believing they've taken on rim manufacturing when the frame business is so slow.

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    No idea what Aluminum that is. Building a rim probably requires some big machines and several processes so I'd guess they are outsourcing to someone in China but this is all a guess.

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    It is either that the person writing the piece did not know and put the xxx's in there intending to come back and add the correct identification in later and it was missed in proof reading or if not it can only mean they do not want to disclose the exact content of the material.

    It doesn't correspond to the BS standard .There are only numbers and suffixes and x is not a suffix.

    The last digit in the 4 digit group has no significance and merely indicates different alloys in the group.

    The 9 means unused series.

    There have been other alloys designated with similar letters. Y alloys develeoped in the National Physics Lab in the first world war for example which is 4% copper 2% nickel and 1.5% magnesium. Z's denote die cast alloys containing zinc. I do not know of x series. It could be something entirely new of course.

  6. #6
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    i thought maybe it was because the wheels were just so sexy that it is xxx porno 9 aluminum

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    I will wager they are of no different alloy than many other rims. Manufacturers often vary the alloy by the application anyhow, and I'm pretty sure this is either an off-the-shelf alloy that is widely used and "x'd" out to create yet another image of something special. It's free marketing tactics, I guess.

    It's either off the shelf, or unobtanium filled with helium.

    For that matter, I don't know why anyone cares about the EW wheels, when they're shown to be valued at 200% anything comparable from known top builders, composed of parts made in France, Switzerland, USA, UK, Japan, and several other western countries known to generally have extremely high labor costs.


  8. #8
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    Great review (of why they are a rip-off) here:
    http://www.mtbtrailreview.com/blog/r...eels-reviewed/

  9. #9
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    interesting commentes from tony regarding robb's review of hus wheels. kind of an about face from tony's thoghts on the ells website. he said he took his time coming up with an w=awesome wheelset and now it seems like there will be a few changes to it. i'd hate to have bought version 1 then. too bad he's so intent on sticking with 24 p.o.e. though. these wheels will always be overpriced compared to kings and I9s in thier current configuration. at least they have subtle ells graphics on them. i guess you'll have to ride them to know


    Tony E says: November 5, 2008 at 1:11 amWe’ll get Rob, the next Rev on these wheels.
    The objective out of the gate here guys was stiffness, directional control, maximized tire contact patch to reduce side wall flex, and to allow the same traction with LIGHTER TIRE (total wheel weight, including tires)… and rolling friction.
    For sure, I’m working to make them better in all areas, but I think I hit the goal with the above.
    POE is a durability issue. I love and admire my American Manufacturing brothers at Chris King and Industry Nine–awesome products, I own both… I deliberately stayed with the 3 pawl system because of its long proven durability.
    If you weigh the wheel set with the lighter tire and measure your contact patch–you will see the weight advantages of the whole wheel.
    You really need to ride the wheel to understand the goal—you can’t measure this wheel on a gram scale alone…it’s a ride difference, not a gram scale difference.
    Next batch will ship with spare spokes–we have them in stock now, but your right, a couple in the trunk of the car would bail someone out if there was a spoke failure.
    I’m looking into a thread in adaptor for the front hub like the rear–that’s the direction I’d like to go. The O’Rings haven’t bothered anyone, but clearly a thread in configuration would have some advantages. We’ll see if we can incorporate that without adding weight or loosing strength.
    “tubeless ready” done deal! You’re right, valve stem hole is too big. I hadn’t noticed until I read the review, I’m a tube guy, UST is heavy and doesn’t hold air, everyone I know that has UST runs slim or Stans in them—and so what’s the point of the heavier system that doesn’t work? Personally, I hate slimy stuff in my wheels—I think STANS is the way to go for running tubeless. I just don’t do it and hadn’t noticed the larger diameter of that valve stem hole, but we’re fixing that right away in our new Rim.
    Colors–won’t happen. I’m a real fan of understated elegance, the black on silver is where I’m going with this– Besides, the colorization of the spokes weakens the temper of the Stainless Steel… So performance is beauty, and in this case, silver is high performance, and thus beautiful.
    Lastly, I’m happy to announce a significant reduction in the weight of the All Mountain wheelsets coming in December. It’s huge! And done without compromise on the other important stuff.
    Finally however, sorry about the price. Good stuff costs. The wide, light rim I just designed with horizontal internal tapering in the extrusion, and hand welded seems, is expensive. It had to be extruded in an aerospace certified extrusion facility, and it had to use a proprietary 6XXX alloy. It’s strong and light, and wide. It costs a lot of money… I’ll keep sweatin’ the details though, and thanks for the pointers on this review.
    Cheers,
    TE
    Reply

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000
    about face = tony's thoghts

    Tony E says: ...
    You really need to ride the wheel to understand the goal—you can’t measure this wheel on a gram scale alone…it’s a ride difference, not a gram scale difference.
    ...
    Lastly, I’m happy to announce a significant reduction in the weight of the All Mountain wheelsets coming in December. It’s huge! ...
    Cheers,
    TE
    Classic.

  11. #11
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    Qbert,

    Thanks for posting that. I'll happily address it point by point.

    For sure, I’m working to make them better in all areas, but I think I hit the goal with the above.
    Make them with the specs of a ProII/Dt5.1 combo, and then magically drop the price more than $500 and then you'll have a winner because they aren't any better, and likely, not even equal to one of the industry-leading combinations for this application.

    POE is a durability issue.
    Completely false. Not necessarily the number of points, as it is the overall design. Generally, POE becomes a durability issue when you're cutting corners. There are wheels with proven durable hubs at half the price, and even the higher end ones, with more engagement points, at hundreds off the EW price.

    $900+ can get a wheel with lots of engagement points, high torque capacity, and high levels of durability, and many times, with money to spare.

    love and admire my American Manufacturing brothers at Chris King and Industry Nine–awesome products,
    I love how you try to associate yourself with esteemed builders. Wasn't Sherwood Gibson one of the people you compared yourself to some years ago, and he posted that he would like you to not associate yourself with him due to how you screwed him over?

    On top of that, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. On one side, you're talking up being in the esteemed company of American builders, but at the same time, you're "super proud" of taking these wheels from overseas? Buddhist monks, no less?

    f you weigh the wheel set with the lighter tire and measure your contact patch–you will see the weight advantages of the whole wheel.
    Too many variables there, and you're trying to "virtually" simulate something that can't be simulated.

    You really need to ride the wheel to understand the goal—you can’t measure this wheel on a gram scale alone…it’s a ride difference, not a gram scale difference.
    Ok, ok, we get it. Those who ride...
    ...ignore facts...yeah...
    Next batch will ship with spare spokes–we have them in stock now, but your right, a couple in the trunk of the car would bail someone out if there was a spoke failure.
    Thanks Tony. Hope you can sleep at night losing $4 in profit on a $900 set of wheels where there's 40-60% in profit.

    I’m looking into a thread in adaptor for the front hub like the rear–that’s the direction I’d like to go. The O’Rings haven’t bothered anyone, but clearly a thread in configuration would have some advantages. We’ll see if we can incorporate that without adding weight or loosing strength.
    How do you know that they haven't bothered anyone? EW riders aren't exactly realistic, and on top of that, I hardly think non-EW owners are actually buying your wheels. They're a fashion statement for the brand-concious. Kind of like Z. Cavaricci was.

    That was a hit and a miss. You were so concerned about putting together the rest of this fairly standard wheel, you forgot the little things. These were lessons learned in 1998, btw.

    You’re right, valve stem hole is too big. I hadn’t noticed until I read the review,.

    ...I just don’t do it and hadn’t noticed the larger diameter of that valve stem hole, but we’re fixing that right away in our new Rim.
    Yup, slap some stickers on the boxes you guys get from Taiwan, and they're out. Never so much as look inside.

    ...and now that means until the new rim, people have obsolete rims that they can't run tubeless in, regardless of what YOU want them to do.

    Colors–won’t happen. I’m a real fan of understated elegance, the black on silver is where I’m going with this– Besides, the colorization of the spokes weakens the temper of the Stainless Steel… So performance is beauty, and in this case, silver is high performance, and thus beautiful.
    This is interesting. You're responsible for the monstrosity I attached below. The red and black zebra something or another, yet now you speak out of both sides of your mouth again, and now you like understated colors? You only changed up now because you were having trouble getting those horrid things out the door.

    Finally however, sorry about the price. Good stuff costs. The wide, light rim I just designed with horizontal internal tapering in the extrusion, and hand welded seems, is expensive. It had to be extruded in an aerospace certified extrusion facility, and it had to use a proprietary 6XXX alloy. It’s strong and light, and wide. It costs a lot of money… I’ll keep sweatin’ the details though, and thanks for the pointers on this review.
    Last point first- you didn't sweat the details because this wheel factory in Taiwan did. That's also why you have people complaining about the valve hole and the axle adapters.

    DT Swiss manufactures their 5.1 in Switzerland, and it's in a dedicated facility made specifically for this type of product. It's not even arguable that making stuff in Switzerland costs more than making the same thing in Taiwan. Switzerland is a tiny country that possesses 1/3 of the world's wealth, and Zurich and Geneva treats their citizens with the highest standard of living in the world. The rest of the country is not far behind.

    We can compare Hope hubs, made in the UK. They are high-quality, arguably comparable, but with better design and support. A whole wheelset with DT Comp spokes can be had for 50% less than your wheels. Lots of customer support available, along with spare internal parts, along with axle and freehub options.

    Oh, and thanks, now we know it's 6069 Al in those rims.

    I think I put what i needed to put down for now. But really, are any non-EW frame owners buying these wheels?

    (other forum members photo used without permission...it has been removed from this thread. -gregg)

  12. #12
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    That is a funny set up bike. Nice build and then a Sette seat? I guess I have not tried it, maybe it is comfy but those ergons look like they are not angled quite right.

    Back on topic, I have a set of the Ells wheels, got them cheaper than I could get anything else but would not otherwise buy wheels from a frame building company. I like the wheels and have not have any problems with them and they are still true a year later. Only problem was the cheap skewer it came with, I think I jacked it on a rock and it would not hold tight. Switched it out and they run great, i would buy a higher POE next time though, that is for sure. I love the I9's on my SS. Nice wheels but not $1,000 nice IMO.
    I like to ride Bikes. This might be turning into an obsession, not sure?

    www.cyclng.com

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Qbert,

    Thanks for posting that. I'll happily address it point by point.

    I think I put what i needed to put down for now. But really, are any non-EW frame owners buying these wheels?
    This is my picture of my bike and I don't appreciate you using it in your posts.

    For the person that doesn't like the seat...it works for me. I can't see spending extra $$ on something I rarley set my arse on.

    Yea... I just took it out of the basement when I took this pic and the grips aren't adjusted yet.

    Jeezz...don't you guys have anything better to do!?!?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharacterZero
    Great review (of why they are a rip-off) here:
    http://www.mtbtrailreview.com/blog/r...eels-reviewed/

    Is this a review of the original wheels? have the new ones addressed any of the issues? Not that I would buy them, as stated they are more expensive than the already expensive (and excellent) Mavic ( although mavic have their fair share of critics).

    For me they miss out on the biggie, they are not properly tubeless compatable. Rim tape is a bodge, if your buying wheels that are this expensive they should offer the option..

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000


    Tony E says: November 5, 2008 at 1:11 am
    proprietary 6XXX alloy. I
    Cheers,
    TE
    Reply
    Well now we know it is 6xx9

    We are getting closer --magnesium and silicon are the major alloying elements
    and it is an unused series.

    Just 2 X's to go, the second is the number of modifications that have been made to the alloy specification and the 3rd identifies other elements in the group (not very significant)

  16. #16
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    If it is 6069, then that,s not exactly "proprietary" is it? it is very widely used. Many Many bike industry companies use it-Santa Cruz, Iron Horse,Marin, Orange, titus, Ibis, Bianchi, Ibex, mavarick, Tomac etc etc etc (not hard to google!)

    Mavic use something they call maxtal alloy, anyone know anything about that alloy?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    EW riders aren't exactly realistic...
    Nice try at a reasonable response to TE, but then you throw in that and fail.

    You are a dork, Jerk.
    Its not the brand of the wand that matters, but the skill of the magician. (Make no mistake tho, your brand does suck butt.)

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    I stand by what I said, Kenny. Look at all those that defend the company, but have no cards to do so.

    Remember, kind of like when you thought your job was secure and you were telling everyone nothing was wrong with the company, all the while we were telling you that you were going to be fired?

    Tony left you to defend him, knowing you were gone in a few weeks, and you did so admirably. His problem was making it known that you were going to be gone pretty soon.

    Regardless, point by point, he really is a poor double-talker.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nsynk
    If it is 6069, then that,s not exactly "proprietary" is it? it is very widely used. Many Many bike industry companies use it-Santa Cruz, Iron Horse,Marin, Orange, titus, Ibis, Bianchi, Ibex, mavarick, Tomac etc etc etc (not hard to google!)

    Mavic use something they call maxtal alloy, anyone know anything about that alloy?
    Exclusive alloy developed specifically for Mavic by Pechiney Alcan Group, for rim manufacturing and optimizing alloy characteristics vs. that specific use.
    30 % added strength compared to a classic 6106 aluminum rim of same weight
    Lighter than usual aluminum rim of same strength

    Seems an improved 6000 series alloy. Probably not as magic as Ellsworth double X alloy.

  20. #20
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    Did Tony ever send another set to RSutton for review on the improvements?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Did Tony ever send another set to RSutton for review on the improvements?
    I went through my email and phone logs. It was late December and early Jan. when I contacted Ellsworth about the newer styled AM wheels for a review (that was when the revised setup was supposed to be ready). TE was on vacation at the time...from what I remember...and I haven't heard anything since.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    I stand by what I said, Kenny. Look at all those that defend the company, but have no cards to do so.

    Remember, kind of like when you thought your job was secure and you were telling everyone nothing was wrong with the company, all the while we were telling you that you were going to be fired?

    Tony left you to defend him, knowing you were gone in a few weeks, and you did so admirably. His problem was making it known that you were going to be gone pretty soon.

    Regardless, point by point, he really is a poor double-talker.
    Man, you are the most pathetically obsessed poster on MTBR, and that's really saying something. I always somewhat regret it when I accidentally read one of your posts, but there's also a little bit of sick fascination in getting a glimpse into a diseased mind.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Qbert,

    Thanks for posting that. I'll happily address it point by point.



    Make them with the specs of a ProII/Dt5.1 combo, and then magically drop the price more than $500 and then you'll have a winner because they aren't any better, and likely, not even equal to one of the industry-leading combinations for this application.



    Completely false. Not necessarily the number of points, as it is the overall design. Generally, POE becomes a durability issue when you're cutting corners. There are wheels with proven durable hubs at half the price, and even the higher end ones, with more engagement points, at hundreds off the EW price.

    $900+ can get a wheel with lots of engagement points, high torque capacity, and high levels of durability, and many times, with money to spare.



    I love how you try to associate yourself with esteemed builders. Wasn't Sherwood Gibson one of the people you compared yourself to some years ago, and he posted that he would like you to not associate yourself with him due to how you screwed him over?

    On top of that, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. On one side, you're talking up being in the esteemed company of American builders, but at the same time, you're "super proud" of taking these wheels from overseas? Buddhist monks, no less?



    Too many variables there, and you're trying to "virtually" simulate something that can't be simulated.


    Ok, ok, we get it. Those who ride...
    ...ignore facts...yeah...


    Thanks Tony. Hope you can sleep at night losing $4 in profit on a $900 set of wheels where there's 40-60% in profit.



    How do you know that they haven't bothered anyone? EW riders aren't exactly realistic, and on top of that, I hardly think non-EW owners are actually buying your wheels. They're a fashion statement for the brand-concious. Kind of like Z. Cavaricci was.

    That was a hit and a miss. You were so concerned about putting together the rest of this fairly standard wheel, you forgot the little things. These were lessons learned in 1998, btw.


    Yup, slap some stickers on the boxes you guys get from Taiwan, and they're out. Never so much as look inside.

    ...and now that means until the new rim, people have obsolete rims that they can't run tubeless in, regardless of what YOU want them to do.



    This is interesting. You're responsible for the monstrosity I attached below. The red and black zebra something or another, yet now you speak out of both sides of your mouth again, and now you like understated colors? You only changed up now because you were having trouble getting those horrid things out the door.



    Last point first- you didn't sweat the details because this wheel factory in Taiwan did. That's also why you have people complaining about the valve hole and the axle adapters.

    DT Swiss manufactures their 5.1 in Switzerland, and it's in a dedicated facility made specifically for this type of product. It's not even arguable that making stuff in Switzerland costs more than making the same thing in Taiwan. Switzerland is a tiny country that possesses 1/3 of the world's wealth, and Zurich and Geneva treats their citizens with the highest standard of living in the world. The rest of the country is not far behind.

    We can compare Hope hubs, made in the UK. They are high-quality, arguably comparable, but with better design and support. A whole wheelset with DT Comp spokes can be had for 50% less than your wheels. Lots of customer support available, along with spare internal parts, along with axle and freehub options.

    Oh, and thanks, now we know it's 6069 Al in those rims.

    I think I put what i needed to put down for now. But really, are any non-EW frame owners buying these wheels?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEhDZN0RFjw

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    Jerk Chicken, How do you know so much about the inside dealings at Ells ? I know you live in Germany, do you work in the industry or do you have a friend that does?

    You say you knew and told Kenny he was going to get fired weeks before it happened, only someone very close to Ells would know that. Did you PM him to tell him because I don't remember you coming out and saying it on the forum anywhere, except afterwards that is.

  25. #25
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    I don't work in the industry, never did.

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