Results 1 to 76 of 76
  1. #1
    I pigskin I never Nerf it
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    181

    Apples to Ellsworths?

    From all the reading I have been doing, I would like to say that all you Ellsworth owners out there are like Apple computer owners (*like me *). Look at the reasons:

    Apples are intially MORE expensive, but at cheaper over the long term.
    Apples have tremendous build quality and the best customer service.
    Apple keyboards tactile feel is that only small segment of the market appreciates.
    Apples, I feel, are the pinnacle of what a computer should be.
    Apple is a "boutique" brand that is comfortable not having 100% market share.
    Apple owners seem to be more educated, and understand that the fastest/lightest/newest isn't always the best. They have more passion in what they do than the Joe Schmoe's out there. They respect simplicity, look and feel, and want something that isn't a cookie cutter design. To them, their purchase is more than a computer, it is an extension of oneself.


    I have drawn these conclusions about your Ellsworth's due to reading this board. I have been an Apple computer owner for 18yrs. I feel like I could be an Ellsworth owner. You all can agree that there are people out there that just should not purchase certain products. Those without passion cannot rationalize value of a high-end product that costs as much as motorized transportation. Any bike manufacturer can make a 5k bike, but you all make me want join your group.

    I feel that you Ellsworth owners are like a group within a group. Your section of the forum is the third most active out there, even though Ellsworth has only been in production for 6 years. You tend to support each other better than most other bike owners. You seem identify with each other. I'd like to join into this comradrery next year, so help me out.

    The reason I am asking this, is that I'm getting ready to make "the purchase" this winter. A great frame that will last 3-5 years that will allow me to be a grow into a better rider, but for now, I'll low ball the components just to keep the price down intially and upgrade as things break down the road. This way I'll have new(er) components when I decide to replace the frame later. I want a FS XC/AM bike and to keep it under 2.5k. Obviously I'm leaning towards something used. Is that possible? Is is even right to place LX or lower grade components on a Ellsworth. or is it sacrilege?


    Thanks to all in advance. Now for your reactions...
    James

    I aspire to be on Osokolo's ignore list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osokolo
    small minds usually try to insult other people by saying things that they themselves suffer from...
    i dont care that you have a small penis or erectile disfunction

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    3,984
    Quote Originally Posted by spdrycr
    From all the reading I have been doing, I would like to say that all you Ellsworth owners out there are like Apple computer owners (*like me *). Look at the reasons:

    Apples are intially MORE expensive, but at cheaper over the long term....
    Ellsworths are initially more (typically), but where did you get that they're cheaper over the long term? Talk to the people on this board that had terrible waranty service that actually cost them hundreds of dollars.

    Quote Originally Posted by spdrycr
    Apples have tremendous build quality and the best customer service....
    Ellsworths have great build quality, except the 2001 Truth. Ellsworth's customer service is not even remotely near the top......and you say that you've drawn this conclusion by reading this board? I suggest taking reading comprehension lessons. If you read what's posted on this board you'll see that the Ellsworth customer service is seriously questioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by spdrycr
    Apple is a "boutique" brand that is comfortable not having 100% market share.....
    Are you serious? Both Apple and Ellsworth (and every other manufacturer) would LOVE to have as large a market share as possible. Maybe I misunderstand your use of the work "comfortable".

    Quote Originally Posted by spdrycr
    Apple owners seem to be more educated, and understand that the fastest/lightest/newest isn't always the best. They have more passion in what they do than the Joe Schmoe's out there. They respect simplicity, look and feel, and want something that isn't a cookie cutter design. To them, their purchase is more than a computer, it is an extension of oneself......
    I don't know about more educated, but I have noticed that many creative people like artists choose the apple. Most of the engineers that I know choose PC.


    Quote Originally Posted by spdrycr
    I have drawn these conclusions about your Ellsworth's due to reading this board...
    You may want to read it one more time. btw...I do tend to agree with your comments about Apple.

  3. #3
    I pigskin I never Nerf it
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    181

    I may be wrong about the service, but...

    You all speak very highly of the Ellsworths. Can somebody explain to me why they chose this bike? It really seems as though all of you belive that Ellsworths are the pinnacle of biking.

    The comment about Apple being comfortable with it's smaller market share is was because one of the the execs said something to the effect that they didn't care they have a single digit market share (2%). Its related to the single digit market share (7-8%) of BMW. He said BMW doesn't have a problem selling cars, and Apple doesn't have a problem selling computers. Apple manufactures what they can manufacture, and the products don't collect dust on the shelves.
    James

    I aspire to be on Osokolo's ignore list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osokolo
    small minds usually try to insult other people by saying things that they themselves suffer from...
    i dont care that you have a small penis or erectile disfunction

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    275

    Not so fast

    Quote Originally Posted by spdrycr
    You all speak very highly of the Ellsworths. Can somebody explain to me why they chose this bike? It really seems as though all of you belive that Ellsworths are the pinnacle of biking.

    The comment about Apple being comfortable with it's smaller market share is was because one of the the execs said something to the effect that they didn't care they have a single digit market share (2%). Its related to the single digit market share (7-8%) of BMW. He said BMW doesn't have a problem selling cars, and Apple doesn't have a problem selling computers. Apple manufactures what they can manufacture, and the products don't collect dust on the shelves.
    To get the real story about Apple, go read the Harvard Business School case study. If it wasn't for the i Pod, Apple would be history. As for the popularity of this board, it is partially due to the circus atmosphere of the warranty issue. If you look at the most viewed thread, they have to do with this issue. Do more research.

  5. #5
    Rolling
    Reputation: lidarman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    11,114
    Quote Originally Posted by spdrycr
    You all speak very highly of the Ellsworths. Can somebody explain to me why they chose this bike? It really seems as though all of you belive that Ellsworths are the pinnacle of biking.
    You really made that conclusion?

    People with other bikes in bracket such as Ventana, Titus, Moots, Santa Cruz, Intense, Foes...etc, speak highly of those bikes too. Only some think (not all) that they are the pinnacle of bikes...especially the owner of Ellsworth.

    Moots cost more than Ellsworth if you go by price.

    When I bought my truth way back in 2001, it was the best bike that was category that I wanted and could actually test ride. If I would have ridden a Ventana then, I would be a Ventana owner instead.
    Last edited by lidarman; 11-18-2004 at 04:32 PM.

  6. #6
    ...master of none
    Reputation: bock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    453
    Quote Originally Posted by spdrycr
    I feel like I could be an Ellsworth owner.
    It sounds like you are looking for a high-end, exclusive bike with that certain je ne sais quoi. An Ellsworth could fit the bill, but do some research and consider whether you want to support a company that treats its customers as many on this board have been treated. Do they deserve your business?

    Don't be fooled into thinking Ellsworth is the end-all, be-all in this category. There are many others, but I'll mention a few: Seven, Moots, Turner, Maverick.

    bock

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    3,984
    Quote Originally Posted by spdrycr
    You all speak very highly of the Ellsworths. Can somebody explain to me why they chose this bike? It really seems as though all of you belive that Ellsworths are the pinnacle of biking. .
    Actually, Ellsworth and Ellsworth marketing push the theory that their bikes are the pinnacle. In fact, I think I remember one of their ads using that exact phrase..."pinnacle of biking". Don't get me wrong, they are great bikes for the most part.......but they are no better than Turner, Ventana, Titus and many other boutique bikes. I do think that Ellsworth makes some of the best looking bikes. Personally, I would buy one of the other brands before an Ellsworth.

    Quote Originally Posted by spdrycr
    The comment about Apple being comfortable with it's smaller market share is was because one of the the execs said something to the effect that they didn't care they have a single digit market share (2%). Its related to the single digit market share (7-8%) of BMW. He said BMW doesn't have a problem selling cars, and Apple doesn't have a problem selling computers. Apple manufactures what they can manufacture, and the products don't collect dust on the shelves.
    What would you expect an Apple Exec to say in public?......that they're worried that they might go out of business? Business execs will always talk positively to the press....up until the day they go out of business. I'm sure that Apple exec would give his left nut (why's it always the left one?) to break into the double digit market share.

  8. #8
    Are you talking to me?
    Reputation: damion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    3,883

    Follow bock's lead.

    Go back and do your research, man.

    After you read all there is about the subject on these boards, and in the mag's, then speak.
    gfy

  9. #9
    No, that's not phonetic
    Reputation: tscheezy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    14,313
    I hope that was a joke. As a devoted Mac user I take offense at the comparison.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  10. #10
    I pigskin I never Nerf it
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    181

    I appreciate you're honesty...

    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    Go back and do your research, man.

    After you read all there is about the subject on these boards, and in the mag's, then speak.

    Damn was I wrong!!!

    Thanks everybody for being so honest. I'll take your advice and look elsewhere for a bike that fits my criteria. I'll check out the other manufacturer's listed. As a note; It is refreshing to see that you all still stick together as a group even if it means disuading a new member from making purchasing an Ellsworth.



    Thanks for looking out.


    James
    James

    I aspire to be on Osokolo's ignore list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osokolo
    small minds usually try to insult other people by saying things that they themselves suffer from...
    i dont care that you have a small penis or erectile disfunction

  11. #11
    Rolling
    Reputation: lidarman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    11,114
    Quote Originally Posted by spdrycr
    Thanks everybody for being so honest. I'll take your advice and look elsewhere for a bike that fits my criteria.
    Jeeze..one would think an Ellsworth Evangelist would come and post in Ellsworth's defense. Hmmmm... Odd! Where are you guys?

    good luck James. I know you will do the right thing.

  12. #12
    Are you talking to me?
    Reputation: damion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    3,883

    It is all worth while.

    Quote Originally Posted by spdrycr
    Damn was I wrong!!!

    Thanks everybody for being so honest. I'll take your advice and look elsewhere for a bike that fits my criteria. I'll check out the other manufacturer's listed. As a note; It is refreshing to see that you all still stick together as a group even if it means disuading a new member from making purchasing an Ellsworth.



    Thanks for looking out.


    James



    Someone has seen the light. (I am kidding.) At least you reveiwed the info that you had available, and then made an informed decision.
    gfy

  13. #13
    Brass Nipples!
    Reputation: Bob the Wheelbuilder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    2,006

    For the sake of full disclosure...

    I have several Apple computers, one PC and an Ellsworth Moment.

    Up until my post, I think lidarman is the only one in this thread who currently is riding an Ellworth. Some of the others have never owned one.

    In the real world, many riders have Ellsworth bikes and love them. Many of the people who hang out on the Ellsworth board are here for the entertainment value, not because they love Ellsworth Bikes.

    Do read the warranty posts here (the warranty on a new bike wouldn't be the troublesome "lifetime" version) and do your homework before buying a bike. I can highly recommend the Moment based on my personal experience. Only you can decide if it would be the right bike for you.

    LX or even the new Deore components are fine on a high end frame. If over time you break things or get "upgrade-itis," gradually put better parts on as you can afford them.
    {Principal Skinner} Hmm. Whoever did this is in very deep trouble.
    {Martin} And a sloppy speller too. The preferred spelling of 'wiener' is w - i - e - n - e - r, although 'e - i' is an acceptable ethnic variant.

  14. #14
    sock puppet
    Reputation: osokolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,061

    not many respondents to your inquiry ever rode Ellsworth...

    Quote Originally Posted by spdrycr
    From all the reading I have been doing, I would like to say that all you Ellsworth owners out there are like Apple computer owners (*like me *). Look at the reasons:

    Apples are intially MORE expensive, but at cheaper over the long term.
    Apples have tremendous build quality and the best customer service.
    Apple keyboards tactile feel is that only small segment of the market appreciates.
    Apples, I feel, are the pinnacle of what a computer should be.
    Apple is a "boutique" brand that is comfortable not having 100% market share.
    Apple owners seem to be more educated, and understand that the fastest/lightest/newest isn't always the best. They have more passion in what they do than the Joe Schmoe's out there. They respect simplicity, look and feel, and want something that isn't a cookie cutter design. To them, their purchase is more than a computer, it is an extension of oneself.


    I have drawn these conclusions about your Ellsworth's due to reading this board. I have been an Apple computer owner for 18yrs. I feel like I could be an Ellsworth owner. You all can agree that there are people out there that just should not purchase certain products. Those without passion cannot rationalize value of a high-end product that costs as much as motorized transportation. Any bike manufacturer can make a 5k bike, but you all make me want join your group.

    I feel that you Ellsworth owners are like a group within a group. Your section of the forum is the third most active out there, even though Ellsworth has only been in production for 6 years. You tend to support each other better than most other bike owners. You seem identify with each other. I'd like to join into this comradrery next year, so help me out.

    The reason I am asking this, is that I'm getting ready to make "the purchase" this winter. A great frame that will last 3-5 years that will allow me to be a grow into a better rider, but for now, I'll low ball the components just to keep the price down intially and upgrade as things break down the road. This way I'll have new(er) components when I decide to replace the frame later. I want a FS XC/AM bike and to keep it under 2.5k. Obviously I'm leaning towards something used. Is that possible? Is is even right to place LX or lower grade components on a Ellsworth. or is it sacrilege?


    Thanks to all in advance. Now for your reactions...
    Are you going to really trust people that only dream about Ellsworth? i wouldnt.

    There are many, many happy Ellsworth owners, and i am one of them. I've had my Truth for over a year now. It is an amazing bike and performs and looks second to none. No other company compares to Ellsworth in craftsmanship. Performance is individual preference, so i will not say anything exclusive, but even in this department, Ellsworth is at the top of the list...

    2001 Truth models had a design flaw that was fixed in later years. The last big improvement was made to 2004 Truth (i own one of these). Although Truth is one of the lightest full suspension frames out there, it held up my 205 pounds with ease. My bike is built around 25.5 pounds with trail tires and heavy duty wheels...

    depending on your interest, i recommend that you look up Truth and Moment, both easily at the top in their class.

    other mentioned brands are worthy competitors as well. Consider them all, but do not exclude Ellsworth. Unfortunately, Ellsworth haters are louder on this list than on their own list. Many people that talked about Ellsworth on your thread, never rode one. Should i say more?

    Good luck with your research and i hope you choose Ellsworth. You will not be disappointed, just dont go for pre-2004 Truth... that is all...

    interestingly enough i have been using Apple computers since 1990... PeeCee owners who never used Apple Macintosh owe it to themselves to try one before making any derogatory comments... No PeeCee company will ever come close to industrial design that Apple is using on their computers and accessories... Evar!

  15. #15
    853+29+1x24=Fun
    Reputation: kev0153's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,020
    I've have an Id and have owned a Truth and have no complaints about either. The Moments look really nice. I wouldn't completely rule out Ellsworth, just get the right bike for your type of riding. That goes for whatever brand you decide to go with.

  16. #16
    Time is not a road.
    Reputation: chad1433's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    4,146
    There is a small group of the single pivot Ellsworth owners on this thread and I've never heard a complaint from them. I know there were some problems with swingarms in the past, but there hasn't been any mention of this on this board in the several months that I've been here.

    If you're considering an Ellsworth, perhaps an Isis/Joker/Distance would work well for you. Mine keeps me going..

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation: pixelninja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,044
    Quote Originally Posted by chad1433
    There is a small group of the single pivot Ellsworth owners on this thread and I've never heard a complaint from them. I know there were some problems with swingarms in the past, but there hasn't been any mention of this on this board in the several months that I've been here.

    If you're considering an Ellsworth, perhaps an Isis/Joker/Distance would work well for you. Mine keeps me going..
    I was a satisfied Isis owner for 2 years. I ride agressive XC along the CO front range and loved my Isis. It was an early 03 model with the older style swingarm (welded yoke) that held up fine, although I don't do big drops or jumps. The Isis really shined when climbing in granny gear. The position of the pivot made for bob-free climbing while really keeping the rear wheel glued to the trail. Middle ring climbing was a different story. Lots of bob, but I was running a pre-Propedal Fox Float R. I bet a new RP3 would fix some of that. The only reason I'm not still riding it is that it was stolen. When it came time to get a new bike, I decided to try something different and ended up with a Yeti 575 that I like even better. Similar angles, dimensions and weight, yet with 1.75 more inches in travel. What's not to like about that? I don't know how it would compare if it had the older Float in back, but with the new RP3, there is significantly less bob even with the added travel.

    I will admit that one of my reasons for switching companies was all the negative CS stories I've read. Another reason was that I simply wanted to try something different. The Distance looks sweet, but I thought I'd try something other than a true single pivot. If it wasn't for all the CS problems people have reported, I'll admit there's a chance I'd be on a Distance right now. There's no denying that Ellsworths are beautiful bikes. The welds on my Isis were more uniform than my 575 and it used more CNC'ed parts. I find the anodized finish on both bikes (both are/were black anodized) to be similar in quality.
    "If you suck, that means I'm better. The more you suck, the better I am. So. Let me count the ways you suck." - Scribb

  18. #18
    Rolling
    Reputation: lidarman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    11,114
    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    2001 Truth models had a design flaw that was fixed in later years. <--not a reply to you, just a quote for James reference.
    And James, this is the key issue. Ellsworth's are awesome bikes-- I loved my Truth and love my Id too. But even though the 2001 Truth had a defect, Ellsworth apparently is continuing to, up to two weeks ago, snubbing owners who are victims of this defect. Bock was the latest and he had to threaten litigation to better his position. This is an acceptable way to do business if one chooses, but it is not without consequence. Tony himself got on here one day claiming research by Sony or a similiar company that indicated a dissatisfied customer will tell ten people about their experience while satisfied people don't tell anyone. Based on this alone, Tony ought to treat every 2001 owner like they are the future of the Company. I don't understand why he keeps doing this, keeping this the main topic on this message board.

    Right now Tony pisses off a customer to make $550 on this 2001 issue. And even though he settled with Bock for only $235, Bock is dissatisfied, not buying another Ellsworth and is telling everyone his experience. You wonder if it's worth it? I bet if bock got a new front triangle, rocker and shock with no hesistation, he would be raving about Ellsworth right now.

    If everyone from here on out, who tries to exercise their 2001 warranty, got taken care of, I will gain respect back for Ellsworth. The moment is a great bike and maybe this two-year warranty will be better for the company, but there are still a lot of 2001 owners out there that should be given a new bike, even if 10 years from now, some show up with cracked seatubes and the truth has no resemblence the the 2001 model. It was the original deal, and TE should stick to it.

  19. #19
    ...master of none
    Reputation: bock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    453
    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    Are you going to really trust people that only dream about Ellsworth? i wouldnt...Many people that talked about Ellsworth on your thread, never rode one.
    I don't know about the others who posted on this thread, but for the record I was a Truth owner until it broke a few weeks ago. See my story here in the unlikely case that you missed it.

    bock

  20. #20
    ...master of none
    Reputation: bock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    453
    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    Right now Tony pisses off a customer to make $550 on this 2001 issue. And even though he settled with Bock for only $235, Bock is dissatisfied, not buying another Ellsworth and is telling everyone his experience. You wonder if it's worth it? I bet if bock got a new front triangle, rocker and shock with no hesistation, he would be raving about Ellsworth right now.
    Absolutely. If that had happened, I would be on these boards telling people that despite Ellsworth's rocky customer service history, they really are trying now.

    Sorry, I can't say that's true.

    bock

  21. #21
    rr
    rr is offline
    I don't do PC
    Reputation: rr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    7,399
    Quote Originally Posted by bock
    Absolutely. If that had happened, I would be on these boards telling people that despite Ellsworth's rocky customer service history, they really are trying now.

    Sorry, I can't say that's true.

    bock
    Even after mine broke a second time and they were going to charge me I still was willing to try and switch to a different model, I really didn't want an ID but I asked and they wanted a $1000 with the trade-in, forget that! When I asked about the Moment, the guy chuckled and said thats not going to happen.

  22. #22
    sock puppet
    Reputation: osokolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,061

    that is why I said "many" not "all"...

    Quote Originally Posted by bock
    I don't know about the others who posted on this thread, but for the record I was a Truth owner until it broke a few weeks ago. See my story here in the unlikely case that you missed it.

    bock
    i thought that was a fair statement...

    as you probably noticed, i wasnt trying to minimize your problem or ignore it. I recognized it and i hope it doesnt happen to me.

  23. #23
    I pigskin I never Nerf it
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    181

    I can't stand bad customer service...

    There is no reason that any of you Ells owners out there should have to threaten litigation in order for a company validate a warranty THEY offered. This doesn't sit well with me, especially since I have been spoiled by Apple's customer service. Right now I'm investigating investing in a Titus... Tony Ellsworth's actions have moved me to look into his competitors. This is a shame, because I wanted to join the crew.

    James
    James

    I aspire to be on Osokolo's ignore list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osokolo
    small minds usually try to insult other people by saying things that they themselves suffer from...
    i dont care that you have a small penis or erectile disfunction

  24. #24
    sock puppet
    Reputation: osokolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,061

    James, have you even read the warranty?

    Quote Originally Posted by spdrycr
    There is no reason that any of you Ells owners out there should have to threaten litigation in order for a company validate a warranty THEY offered. This doesn't sit well with me, especially since I have been spoiled by Apple's customer service. Right now I'm investigating investing in a Titus... Tony Ellsworth's actions have moved me to look into his competitors. This is a shame, because I wanted to join the crew.

    James
    honestly?

  25. #25
    trail fairy
    Reputation: trailadvent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    9,546

    Agree W BTB

    BTB your coments are too rational I can't but agree with you since I have a Moment too, if I could be picky though and follow the line on the trail osokolo has lead, I personally don't want everyone to get a E or a Moment only because, I like my bike for the fact I have something different from most everyone else, my group has a Turner, Intense, Santa Cruz and even some OEM bikes !! theyr'e all good and we enjoy the company, but having something different I think is what makes E owners passionate (no more passionate than others), and loyal even with some of the issues E has come under e.g. the raging furnace that burns so hot! so if people come on board great! if not then enjoy whatever you have!! I for one can't get enough of my Moments ha!! if only I could ride everyday then I would be in E heaven!! umm maybe I can??

    Ride hard Ride long or Go home

  26. #26
    ...master of none
    Reputation: bock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    453

    Honestly?

    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    James, have you even read the warranty? honestly?
    If Tony Ellsworth had good intentions and was not trying to mislead his customers, he could have easily worded his 2001-2003 warranty so that it clearly described what would happen when a frame broke and replacement parts were not available.

    But he chose not to do that.

    bock

  27. #27
    sock puppet
    Reputation: osokolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,061

    so you didnt readi it...

    Quote Originally Posted by bock
    If Tony Ellsworth had good intentions and was not trying to mislead his customers, he could have easily worded his 2001-2003 warranty so that it clearly described what would happen when a frame broke and replacement parts were not available.

    But he chose not to do that.

    bock
    i thought so...

    it is clearly described in the warrant what would have happened if the part(s) was not available.

    it is that some people think that the "pro-rated" upgrade is not a "lifetime warranty" per se. That is the issue.

    the languate though, is pretty clear. Whether it is fair or not, it is personal opinion.

    Please read the warranty before you disscus it.

  28. #28
    ...master of none
    Reputation: bock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    453
    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    So you didn't read it. i thought so...

    it is clearly described in the warrant what would have happened if the part(s) was not available.

    it is that some people think that the "pro-rated" upgrade is not a "lifetime warranty" per se. That is the issue.

    the languate though, is pretty clear. Whether it is fair or not, it is personal opinion.

    Please read the warranty before you disscus it.
    Ok, osokolo, I am not going to flame you for this. I am simply going to say that you are wrong. I read the warranty thoroughly, as I stated in other threads many times. I even posted the complete text of my 2001 warranty here. The wording is not clear at all, but I believe a judge would interpret it as I do, that Ellsworth owes me a complete frame.

    If you still agree with Tony on what the warranty says, then you are the perfect Ellsworth customer. I won't argue with you about it.

    bock

  29. #29
    sock puppet
    Reputation: osokolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,061

    i dont agree or disagree with TE

    Quote Originally Posted by bock
    Ok, osokolo, I am not going to flame you for this. I am simply going to say that you are wrong. I read the warranty thoroughly, as I stated in other threads many times. I even posted the complete text of my 2001 warranty here. The wording is not clear at all, but I believe a judge would interpret it as I do, that Ellsworth owes me a complete frame.

    If you still agree with Tony on what the warranty says, then you are the perfect Ellsworth customer. I won't argue with you about it.

    bock
    it is the same as if i disagreed with XY car maker's warranty... who cares really. if i dont like the warranty, i will not buy the car.

    the difference between you and I is in that i am fine with TE's interpretation of his warranty. If after 3 years of riding my bike, the frame cracks, i will not completely blame it on the manufacturer and i will be happy to get the pro-rated upgrade to the (almost) new frame... i think it is a pretty fair deal...

    with the new warranty, after 2 years, i'd be SOL.

    so most people are happier with the new 2 year warranty over the old one. I cant believe that... but hey, if i didnt like the warranty - i wouldnt have bought the product. isnt that simple?

    bottom line, i dont buy products based on their warranty (in 99% of the cases). I buy the product based on (in this case) on the amount of fun and build quality... i know i purchased LIGHT full suspension bike and i know what compromises were done in order to achieve it... i could have bought ID or "younameit" other brand, but i chose Ells and i am happy with it...

  30. #30
    Jm.
    Jm. is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Jm.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,131
    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    If after 3 years of riding my bike, the frame cracks, i will not completely blame it on the manufacturer.

    Why in gods name would you not blame it on the manufacturer?;

    1. You are using it for it's intended usage.

    2. It's supposed to last 10 years.

    3. It's twice as strong as comparable bikes as claimed by tony ellsworth.

    You are more than happy to fork over cash to pay for a manufacturing defect?

    Bikes just do not break on their own. If you exceed the fatigue limit, it will break. This is the intended usage. If you exceed the fatigue life, it will break. This is the number of cycles of stress it can take, which since it is aluminum, is a fixed number. This is why most manufacturers do not give 10 year gaurentees on aluminum bikes, especially aluminum race-models.

    So if you are using it for it's intended usage, and it's been used "normally" as far as it's lifespan is concerned, it's a manufacturing defect if it breaks. Bikes do not just break for no reason.

    So again, why would you pay tony ellsworth for his manufacturing defect?

    Car manufacturers could not get away with this kind of scam.
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  31. #31
    sock puppet
    Reputation: osokolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,061

    unbelievable...

    you are actually capable of communicating like a normal human being... ;-P

    anyway, good questions. i will try to answer them as best as i can...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    Why in gods name would you not blame it on the manufacturer?;

    1. You are using it for it's intended usage.
    true. it is also true that the bike can break during the intended usage if you allign few conditions and overstress that sweet spot. i have see my best friend, great athlete and in great shape at that moment, stepping down off the curb to cross the street. Nothing unusual in that step, it was identical to other 10000 curb steps he made in his life. His knee twisted so badly that he needed 2 surgeries and 8 months to recover...

    any bike can break even during the intended usage ride... it doesnt have to be manufacturer's defect...

    [QUOTE]2. It's supposed to last 10 years.[/QUOTE}

    naah, i dont believe in this... i didnt buy it for that. the lifetime of a light full suspension frame is 3-4 years max. after that, it may break at any time... doesnt have to, but it may... that is how i look at it...

    3. It's twice as strong as comparable bikes as claimed by tony ellsworth.
    none of the comparable bikes excited me as much as the Truth. Even if the Truth was twice as weak as comparable bikes, i'd still go for it, as i simply wanted it for a long time, but couldnt afford it...

    You are more than happy to fork over cash to pay for a manufacturing defect?
    you said that, i didnt. If i know it was a defect, i dont want to pay for it. period. Defective frames will break within the first year of the ownership in most cases. 2001 Truth is somehow an exception. Either the stress calculation did not show proper results or the frame was so strong that it took it 3 years to show manufacturer's defect... no kidding here...

    Bikes just do not break on their own. If you exceed the fatigue limit, it will break. This is the intended usage. If you exceed the fatigue life, it will break. This is the number of cycles of stress it can take, which since it is aluminum, is a fixed number. This is why most manufacturers do not give 10 year gaurentees on aluminum bikes, especially aluminum race-models.
    so how do you explain marshal artists breaking cement blocks with their foreheads or hands? if one alligns few conditions during the intended usage, one will break any frame.

    So if you are using it for it's intended usage, and it's been used "normally" as far as it's lifespan is concerned, it's a manufacturing defect if it breaks. Bikes do not just break for no reason.
    you already asked this questions. please look up the answer above

    So again, why would you pay tony ellsworth for his manufacturing defect?
    if i owned 2001 Truth and if i broke it after 3 years of hard intended usage riding, i'd be more than happy to pay $550 for the new triangle, rockers and the shock. Are you kidding me? i would have gotten so much fun from that frame that this price would be nothing in comparison with what i got out of the bike... you may agree or disagree with me, but you ought to respect my stand on this issue...

    Car manufacturers could not get away with this kind of scam.
    really? i've seen too many 10 year perforation warranties not honoured due to "stone chip caused corrosion".. give me a break.. did they design the perforation thinking that the car wouldnt be hit by a debris or stones? yeah right... Car manufacturers are getting away with worse scam... How do you explain paying $100.000 for a Porsche? you are not buying a pile of metal with that car. You are buying a driving passion and history...

    when i purchased my Truth i didnt get just some nicely welded bunch of tubes. i got a piece of riding passion as well...

    sigh, i am sure you will find this pathetic. for some reason i dont think you understand what i am talking about....

  32. #32
    Jm.
    Jm. is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Jm.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,131
    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    It is also true that the bike can break during the intended usage if you allign few conditions and overstress that sweet spot. i have see my best friend, great athlete and in great shape at that moment, stepping down off the curb to cross the street. Nothing unusual in that step, it was identical to other 10000 curb steps he made in his life. His knee twisted so badly that he needed 2 surgeries and 8 months to recover...
    A bike is not a person . It is not organic. It doesn't have the same random factors acting on it. If you are using your bike for the intended usage, it is not going to fail. If you do a big drop on your truth, you will exceed the fatigue limit, even though it might not break right there. When the fatigue limit is exceeded, all bets are off and it may fail the next day, or the next year. These things do not happen for no reason, if you are using it for the intended usage and it fails, it's a defect, not just a random occurance.



    naah, i dont believe in this... i didnt buy it for that. the lifetime of a light full suspension frame is 3-4 years max. after that, it may break at any time... doesnt have to, but it may... that is how i look at it...
    But tony ellsworth says his bikes are so good that they can last for 10 years.


    you said that, i didnt. If i know it was a defect, i dont want to pay for it. period. Defective frames will break within the first year of the ownership in most cases.
    No, there is no "rule" about when a bike is going to break, sorry. If there is a defect that compramises the fatigue life of the frame (which is entirely possible) it might fail a day short of it's 10 year life, or 5 years short of it's 10 year life, depending on the flaw. Please come back to this particular discussion when you have some understanding of fatigue life and limits. I'm in the aviation industry, and your comment about "it should fail in the first year" is so far from the truth it is rediculous. I'll just dismiss that as you not being very well informed.

    so how do you explain marshal artists breaking cement blocks with their foreheads or hands? if one alligns few conditions during the intended usage, one will break any frame.
    I expain them as having little to do with bikes. I also explain this as the guys head exceeding the fatigue limit of the block. You can drop a block on the ground all day long and it wont break, but take a great force applied to a relatively small area (like with your curved forehead or a hammer) and you easily exceed the fatigue limit and it breaks.

    if i owned 2001 Truth and if i broke it after 3 years of hard intended usage riding, i'd be more than happy to pay $550 for the new triangle
    Companies love you because you are the guy that they can make up their losses on for warrenty stuff, you are more than happy to take it in the rear from the company and fork out more money for a defect.

    You are truly a piece of work.
    Last edited by Jm.; 11-22-2004 at 06:59 PM.
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  33. #33
    sock puppet
    Reputation: osokolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,061

    but i am much happier person than you

    and i have much more fun with little things in my life.

    i am not a miserable son of a ***** like you and your cronies.

    thank god i have a good job that pays for things that i enjoy, but money is not everything. all the money of this world coundt buy you happiness...

    if you think you know material fatigue, you dont know much. A simple missed bunny hop over the log could put more stress on the frame than a perfectly executed 5 foot drop. bunny hopping is "intended usage". A 5 foot drop is not.

    you are just full of it, and that is all that matters about you...



    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    A bike is not a person . It is not organic. It doesn't have the same random factors acting on it. If you are using your bike for the intended usage, it is not going to fail. If you do a big drop on your truth, you will exceed the fatigue limit, even though it might not break right there. When the fatigue limit is exceeded, all bets are off and it may fail the next day, or the next year. These things do not happen for no reason, if you are using it for the intended usage and it fails, it's a defect, not just a random occurance.



    But tony ellsworth says his bikes are so good that they can last for 10 years.



    No, there is no "rule" about when a bike is going to break, sorry. If there is a defect that compramises the fatigue life of the frame (which is entirely possible) it might fail a day short of it's 10 year life, or 5 years short of it's 10 year life, depending on the flaw. Please come back to this particular discussion when you have some understanding of fatigue life and limits. I'm in the aviation industry, and your comment about "it should fail in the first year" is so far from the truth it is rediculous. I'll just dismiss that as you not being very well informed.


    I expain them as having little to do with bikes. I also explain this as the guys head exceeding the fatigue limit of the block. You can drop a block on the ground all day long and it wont break, but take a great force applied to a relatively small area (like with your curved forehead or a hammer) and you easily exceed the fatigue limit and it breaks.


    Companies love you because you are the guy that they can make up their losses on for warrenty stuff, you are more than happy to take it in the rear from the company and fork out more money for a defect.

    You are truly a piece of work.

  34. #34
    Jm.
    Jm. is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Jm.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,131
    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo

    if you think you know material fatigue, you dont know much. A simple missed bunny hop over the log could put more stress on the frame than a perfectly executed 5 foot drop. bunny hopping is "intended usage". A 5 foot drop is not.
    If you are traveling at a good pace, and slam the rear end into a log hard enough you will have exceeded the fatigue limit. That's like taking a marzocchi dirt jumper to the jump park and casing jumps. Casing jumps will kill any fork or frame (which is essentially what you are doing when you slam the rear end into a log on a bunny hop). It's not intended usage, the intended usage is that you land the jumps and do not case it. That's like saying "I was riding XC, and it broke", and failing to mention that by "XC" you mean that you rode up the DH runs and then down.

    You weren't "just riding along", you were "slamming the rear end into logs". That's obviously not using it within the design parameters.

    I've already lectured you on these topics, I don't know what you think you are trying to prove by taking my examples and giving them back to me.

    You've proven that you have no idea what is going on, i'll give you that one.
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  35. #35
    sock puppet
    Reputation: osokolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,061

    bleh... pretty weak reasoning...

    typical of you. almost as good as your mentor, youknowwho.

    i am sure that YOU would expect warranty frame replacement for missed bunny hop broken frame. I dont think you have enough moral qualities to admit the mistake...

    as far as 'lecturing' goes, you only lectured me on how difficult the life is if you are miserable... i'll give you that one...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    If you are traveling at a good pace, and slam the rear end into a log hard enough you will have exceeded the fatigue limit. That's like taking a marzocchi dirt jumper to the jump park and casing jumps. Casing jumps will kill any fork or frame (which is essentially what you are doing when you slam the rear end into a log on a bunny hop). It's not intended usage, the intended usage is that you land the jumps and do not case it. That's like saying "I was riding XC, and it broke", and failing to mention that by "XC" you mean that you rode up the DH runs and then down.

    You weren't "just riding along", you were "slamming the rear end into logs". That's obviously not using it within the design parameters.

    I've already lectured you on these topics, I don't know what you think you are trying to prove by taking my examples and giving them back to me.

    You've proven that you have no idea what is going on, i'll give you that one.

  36. #36
    I pigskin I never Nerf it
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    181

    I didn't read the warranty, but I read bock's thread...

    that contained the warranty clauses in question. I have to side with bock and say that if the owner of the company has actions like this, I will simply not do business with said company. I don't care if TE had the bike delivered to me by 3 nympho "Perfect 10" models... Wait. I'd probably go for that.

    Anyways, I just don't like the notion that his actions have resulted in these situations. I make an agreement, I stand by it. Like a man. It's not up to creative analysis by whomever interprets the agreement.

    Business are nothing without repeat business. Bock was so upset he took his business elsewhere, and I congratulate him on that. TE also lost my business because of this situation.

    I will make the right decison by learning from this knowledge base we call MTBR forums for honest information without marketing.

    Right now I'm looking at a Titus. Maybe a Kona. Maybe a SC. I don't know. Whatever fits me and makes me happy. This is a buyer's market. The only thing the bike manufacturer's have to differentiate themselves is the frame and the customer service. I'll find a manufacture who deserves my hard earned disposable income by those two factors and go with them.
    James

    I aspire to be on Osokolo's ignore list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osokolo
    small minds usually try to insult other people by saying things that they themselves suffer from...
    i dont care that you have a small penis or erectile disfunction

  37. #37
    sock puppet
    Reputation: osokolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,061

    heh, do yourself a favour

    and read the warranty and then make your own decision.

    trusting anyone without knowing facts is - to say at least - wrong.

    but then, to each his / her own... what ever makes you happy...


    Quote Originally Posted by spdrycr
    that contained the warranty clauses in question. I have to side with bock and say that if the owner of the company has actions like this, I will simply not do business with said company. I don't care if TE had the bike delivered to me by 3 nympho "Perfect 10" models... Wait. I'd probably go for that.

    Anyways, I just don't like the notion that his actions have resulted in these situations. I make an agreement, I stand by it. Like a man. It's not up to creative analysis by whomever interprets the agreement.

    Business are nothing without repeat business. Bock was so upset he took his business elsewhere, and I congratulate him on that. TE also lost my business because of this situation.

    I will make the right decison by learning from this knowledge base we call MTBR forums for honest information without marketing.

    Right now I'm looking at a Titus. Maybe a Kona. Maybe a SC. I don't know. Whatever fits me and makes me happy. This is a buyer's market. The only thing the bike manufacturer's have to differentiate themselves is the frame and the customer service. I'll find a manufacture who deserves my hard earned disposable income by those two factors and go with them.

  38. #38
    I pigskin I never Nerf it
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    181

    I read the warranty... happy osokolo???

    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    and read the warranty and then make your own decision.

    trusting anyone without knowing facts is - to say at least - wrong.

    but then, to each his / her own... what ever makes you happy...



    From bock's post about his 2001 warranty:

    - Ellsworth Handcrafted Bicycles, Inc. warrants the bicycle frame for repair/replacement to the original purchaser for as long as he/she owns the bicycle.

    - This warranty is limited to the repair/replacement of the frame with a like model and color without charge. Ellsworth Handcrafted Bicycles, Inc. shall in no event be responsible for consequential or special damages outside of repair or replacement at our sole discretion. Ellsworth Handcrafted Bicycles, Inc. will not be liable for loss of use due to the chronological requirements to honor this warranty.In the event the model is no longer offered or not currently in production, credit towards current product will be granted toward current product for replacement . Credit is for product only, no monetary value is assigned to any credit toward current product. Regular charges will apply to all shock and color upgrades.


    The bike model is still offered and in production. There is no clause that says "...warrants the specific frame design..." or "...if the model changes, there will be a pro-rated credit given to the current model..." Ells should have replaced his frame "without charge". Should Tony have renamed the Truth (how ironic) a different name with the new models, and he would have avoided this situation. Lets not even discuss how Tony pimps the "commitment to you" on his website:

    -Our Commitment to You:
    Only the finest materials, 5-axis CNC machining, aerospace CAD/CAM development and manufacturing standards are employed in bringing each model to life. Ellsworth finishes frames in our tough-as-nails shot-peened and anodized surface with laser-etched graphics; it costs more, but our frames will last a lifetime, and so will the finish—why bother with anything else? We take pride in our meticulously hand-built bikes—produced only in limited quantities for riders that demand the best money can buy. None of our models carry rider weight limits, and we back all frames with an industry-leading limited Lifetime Warranty against manufacturing defects and workmanship. Designs are proven through continual racing, testing and prototyping, ensuring the Ellsworth bike you ride is at the pinnacle of technology, value and riding enjoyment.
    James

    I aspire to be on Osokolo's ignore list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osokolo
    small minds usually try to insult other people by saying things that they themselves suffer from...
    i dont care that you have a small penis or erectile disfunction

  39. #39
    sock puppet
    Reputation: osokolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,061

    your decision is not about my happiness...

    more importantly: are you happy?

    good luck with Titus.



    Quote Originally Posted by spdrycr
    From bock's post about his 2001 warranty:

    - Ellsworth Handcrafted Bicycles, Inc. warrants the bicycle frame for repair/replacement to the original purchaser for as long as he/she owns the bicycle.

    - This warranty is limited to the repair/replacement of the frame with a like model and color without charge. Ellsworth Handcrafted Bicycles, Inc. shall in no event be responsible for consequential or special damages outside of repair or replacement at our sole discretion. Ellsworth Handcrafted Bicycles, Inc. will not be liable for loss of use due to the chronological requirements to honor this warranty.In the event the model is no longer offered or not currently in production, credit towards current product will be granted toward current product for replacement . Credit is for product only, no monetary value is assigned to any credit toward current product. Regular charges will apply to all shock and color upgrades.


    The bike model is still offered and in production. There is no clause that says "...warrants the specific frame design..." or "...if the model changes, there will be a pro-rated credit given to the current model..." Ells should have replaced his frame "without charge". Should Tony have renamed the Truth (how ironic) a different name with the new models, and he would have avoided this situation. Lets not even discuss how Tony pimps the "commitment to you" on his website:

    -Our Commitment to You:
    Only the finest materials, 5-axis CNC machining, aerospace CAD/CAM development and manufacturing standards are employed in bringing each model to life. Ellsworth finishes frames in our tough-as-nails shot-peened and anodized surface with laser-etched graphics; it costs more, but our frames will last a lifetime, and so will the finish—why bother with anything else? We take pride in our meticulously hand-built bikes—produced only in limited quantities for riders that demand the best money can buy. None of our models carry rider weight limits, and we back all frames with an industry-leading limited Lifetime Warranty against manufacturing defects and workmanship. Designs are proven through continual racing, testing and prototyping, ensuring the Ellsworth bike you ride is at the pinnacle of technology, value and riding enjoyment.

  40. #40
    trail fairy
    Reputation: trailadvent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    9,546

    Can we move on

    Can't believe you guys still bring this up, are we nearing 2005 or has the Y2k bug actually become a reality, osokolo while its fun to a point! give up flogging a dead horse/s there are plenty of subjects on the Ellsworth board for new potential E customers to make there own mind up with regards to choosing a bike and if they go somewhere else for there ride good on them, and good luck! If they listen to the usual bloggers!! then they will probably believe in the tooth fairy too!! Make up your own minds and ride more often!!
    Those that ride know (ha I stole that one from the E site, really!)

    Now can we move on!! probably not!! but it's a hard road to find the perfect women but no hurry aye)

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    275
    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    you said that, i didnt. If i know it was a defect, i dont want to pay for it. period. Defective frames will break within the first year of the ownership in most cases. 2001 Truth is somehow an exception. Either the stress calculation did not show proper results or the frame was so strong that it took it 3 years to show manufacturer's defect... no kidding here...
    In manufactured goods, defective products do not necessarily fail in the first year of use. Proper testing and use of probability distribution should have forecast the failure rate. If the stress calculations were properly done it should yield proper results. If the frame fails in the third year, this proves that the life expectancy of the product has a mean in the neighborhood of 3 years. Then why give or give the impression of a lifetime warranty.

  42. #42
    sock puppet
    Reputation: osokolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,061

    that is a valid question...

    Quote Originally Posted by BobKreyole
    In manufactured goods, defective products do not necessarily fail in the first year of use. Proper testing and use of probability distribution should have forecast the failure rate. If the stress calculations were properly done it should yield proper results. If the frame fails in the third year, this proves that the life expectancy of the product has a mean in the neighborhood of 3 years. Then why give or give the impression of a lifetime warranty.
    as i stated before, i dont agree or disagree with TE.

    i personally didnt buy the bike because of it's "life time" warranty, but if i was, i'd be upset if it wasnt warrantied the way it was "presented" to me...

    Something went terribly wrong with 2001 Truth stress testing resulting in shorter than expected frame life time...

    Bridgestone designed SUV tires that were exploding randomly while JDA. Bridgestone is much larger company than Ellsworth.

    $hit happens no matter what...

  43. #43
    sock puppet
    Reputation: osokolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,061

    sorry... still waiting for Jm...

    Quote Originally Posted by trailadvent
    Can't believe you guys still bring this up, are we nearing 2005 or has the Y2k bug actually become a reality, osokolo while its fun to a point! give up flogging a dead horse/s there are plenty of subjects on the Ellsworth board for new potential E customers to make there own mind up with regards to choosing a bike and if they go somewhere else for there ride good on them, and good luck! If they listen to the usual bloggers!! then they will probably believe in the tooth fairy too!! Make up your own minds and ride more often!!
    Those that ride know (ha I stole that one from the E site, really!)

    Now can we move on!! probably not!! but it's a hard road to find the perfect women but no hurry aye)
    he is probably on the political-socio forum scratching Nuboys nuts and feeling good about victory at home and in Iraq...

  44. #44
    I pigskin I never Nerf it
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    181

    You couldn't leave it alone...

    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    more importantly: are you happy?

    good luck with Titus.
    Do you just want to continue this post forever? You obviously don't have any more info to provide, as told by your last two posts to this thread, so get off the thread I started unless you can provide infomation. Not useless sarcastic posts with no value.
    James

    I aspire to be on Osokolo's ignore list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osokolo
    small minds usually try to insult other people by saying things that they themselves suffer from...
    i dont care that you have a small penis or erectile disfunction

  45. #45
    sock puppet
    Reputation: osokolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,061

    pardon me?

    Quote Originally Posted by spdrycr
    Do you just want to continue this post forever? You obviously don't have any more info to provide, as told by your last two posts to this thread, so get off the thread I started unless you can provide infomation. Not useless sarcastic posts with no value.
    do you have the receipt for this thread?

    if you dont like my posts, dont read them. You didnt contribute anything useful with it so we may as well get some entertaining value out of it...

  46. #46
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    275
    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    as i stated before, i dont agree or disagree with TE.

    i personally didnt buy the bike because of it's "life time" warranty, but if i was, i'd be upset if it wasnt warrantied the way it was "presented" to me...

    Something went terribly wrong with 2001 Truth stress testing resulting in shorter than expected frame life time...

    Bridgestone designed SUV tires that were exploding randomly while JDA. Bridgestone is much larger company than Ellsworth.

    $hit happens no matter what...
    True, "$hit happens". But good companies step-up to the plate and do the right thing. How successful companies use good and bad fortune to prosper is documented in these two books. Good to Great by Jim Collins, and Competing on the Edge by Shona Brown and Kathleen Eisenhardt. Good reading that will give you insight on this problem and possible resolutions.

  47. #47
    Jm.
    Jm. is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Jm.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,131
    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    as i stated before, i dont agree or disagree with TE.

    i personally didnt buy the bike because of it's "life time" warranty, but if i was, i'd be upset if it wasnt warrantied the way it was "presented" to me...

    Something went terribly wrong with 2001 Truth stress testing resulting in shorter than expected frame life time...

    Bridgestone designed SUV tires that were exploding randomly while JDA. Bridgestone is much larger company than Ellsworth.

    $hit happens no matter what...
    Bridgestone should have made those people pay to upgrade their tires when they found out they were faulty. Especially when they contributed to bodily injury.
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  48. #48
    sock puppet
    Reputation: osokolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,061

    yah, it is not a rocket science...

    Quote Originally Posted by BobKreyole
    True, "$hit happens". But good companies step-up to the plate and do the right thing. How successful companies use good and bad fortune to prosper is documented in these two books. Good to Great by Jim Collins, and Competing on the Edge by Shona Brown and Kathleen Eisenhardt. Good reading that will give you insight on this problem and possible resolutions.
    as to what should / could be done...

    we are not in disagreement over that...

  49. #49
    sock puppet
    Reputation: osokolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,061

    you left your

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    Bridgestone should have made those people pay to upgrade their tires when they found out they were faulty. Especially when they contributed to bodily injury.
    president to hang to dry over at the political - socio forum... Nuboy is not that intelligent to defend him... not that you are better, but two soldiers are always better than one...

  50. #50
    I pigskin I never Nerf it
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    181

    Contribute or concede...

    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    do you have the receipt for this thread?

    if you dont like my posts, dont read them. You didnt contribute anything useful with it so we may as well get some entertaining value out of it...

    Yeah, I do have a receipt, its at the top of the post list.
    James

    I aspire to be on Osokolo's ignore list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osokolo
    small minds usually try to insult other people by saying things that they themselves suffer from...
    i dont care that you have a small penis or erectile disfunction

  51. #51
    sock puppet
    Reputation: osokolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,061

    bwahaha... that was actually funny...

    Quote Originally Posted by spdrycr
    Yeah, I do have a receipt, its at the top of the post list.
    you know where you can shove that receipt up...

    this thread is a hoax... it was started just to steer some $hit... so $hit you get...

  52. #52
    Jm.
    Jm. is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Jm.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,131
    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    president to hang to dry over at the political - socio forum... Nuboy is not that intelligent to defend him... not that you are better, but two soldiers are always better than one...
    Wow, I like how you've tried to change the subject to cover up your weakness on this issue (which has nothing to do with forum 88).

    If nothing else, you've really shown this forum your level of intelligence with this post. Good job.
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  53. #53
    No, that's not phonetic
    Reputation: tscheezy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    14,313
    "Those that ride know"

    One of the most ironic things Tony has ever put out there.

    Yeah, we all know...
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  54. #54
    I pigskin I never Nerf it
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    181

    Osokolo: did you read the thread???

    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    you know where you can shove that receipt up...

    this thread is a hoax... it was started just to steer some $hit... so $hit you get...

    Whoa... You're f*cking psychic!!! I did it. I started this thread as a hoax. Yup. You are correct.

    The only thing you have contributed is sh*t, whereas nobody else did. Many others pointed me in the right direction, which is away from purchasing an Ells for reasons you are too blinded to see. With people like you in the club, I'm glad I've decided to purchase from a different manufacturer.

    Hell, I've contributed more to this thread than you have. Face it. You're just another post whore. The only thing you brought to the table is the fact you cannot have an original thought. I'm sure that one day you'll have a question that needs to be addressed here and you'll get ripped apart by some moron like yourself and you'll bust a nut over the flame war that ensues. Feel free to ignore my posts from now on. I mean really. Don't reply. You're not wanted. Just stay away.

    May your next ride be filled happiness, because as you have exemplified you are a happy guy.

    More like a "happy guy with his head so far up Tony Ellsworth's @ss I can't tell where he ends and you begin."

    Have a great f*cking day, you mindless f*ck.
    James

    I aspire to be on Osokolo's ignore list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osokolo
    small minds usually try to insult other people by saying things that they themselves suffer from...
    i dont care that you have a small penis or erectile disfunction

  55. #55
    sock puppet
    Reputation: osokolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,061

    i was thrilled to have read your babble

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    Wow, I like how you've tried to change the subject to cover up your weakness on this issue (which has nothing to do with forum 88).

    If nothing else, you've really shown this forum your level of intelligence with this post. Good job.
    and your retarded views over at the political - socio forum... it confirms most of the stuff i thought about you and explains your behaviour on this forum...

    sigh...

  56. #56
    sock puppet
    Reputation: osokolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,061

    hehe, wipe off the bubbles from the corner of your lips...

    this is how you treat people that try to help you:

    to your question about shorter stem jeffj gave you a very good answer and piece of advice, here is what you replied to him:

    Blah blah blah, the only thing you told me that I didn't know is that the TT length is the reason for my palms bothering me.
    or

    Your statement leads me to believe you do not learn fast, you did not care to learn, or the "real" bike shop followed the mantra, Its a shame to let a fool keep his money
    i do give you a credit for this one:


    I believe firmly in the quote, "fool me once, your fault, fool me twice, my fault.

    that was pretty smart. even the president would give you a credit for that...



    and this shows your IQ:

    Maybe my view is that a shorter stem will reduce the torque I put on the bars. Longer lever, more leverage, right? Maybe the wheel deflects because my reach is too great, and with a shorter bar, I'll have more control, so I'll get a stem that I can transfer to my next bike.

    Problem solved!
    or this:

    Well I do not mean to sound like I am not appreciative of your concern, but I learn fast. It only took me once burning my hand on the iron my mother told me not to touch because it was hot
    or this:
    I make an informed decision. I do this because I am a salesperson. I sell value, I do not sell products. When I make a sale, I give all the information to a client to make an informed decision. I invite them to shop around, to learn about the product, I assist them in pros and cons in all products and will guide them through differences in products. I do not just say,"Hey, we have a deal on this product, buy it." I know salespeople and their tactics, so I make it a point for me to learn as much as I can about whatever product I am buying. I did this.
    where you highlight "Hey, we have a deal on this product, buy it." as a bad practice but you purchased your bike because:

    Your lack of comprehension shows, as I stated when the bike was purchased it cost $599.99. Now its cost is $499.99. You are correct, but the fact remains the bike was purchased for $599.99. This leads to the fact I purchased a bike that cost $599.99 for $300. THIS IS A FACT. No matter what way you twist it; I bought the bike for half price.
    a little bit of hypocrisy... no?

    i can go on and on with excerpts from just a few of your posts, but this is enough... keep babbling your nonsense... you have a $499 bike and that is all you really need. Any high end bike is far, far from your reach, and you just purchased a bike... that is why your post is a hoax...

    one doesnt buy a bike to become a "member of the club" but if there is a club of that sort, i wouldnt want to be in it with you boy.




    Quote Originally Posted by spdrycr
    Whoa... You're f*cking psychic!!! I did it. I started this thread as a hoax. Yup. You are correct.

    The only thing you have contributed is sh*t, whereas nobody else did. Many others pointed me in the right direction, which is away from purchasing an Ells for reasons you are too blinded to see. With people like you in the club, I'm glad I've decided to purchase from a different manufacturer.

    Hell, I've contributed more to this thread than you have. Face it. You're just another post whore. The only thing you brought to the table is the fact you cannot have an original thought. I'm sure that one day you'll have a question that needs to be addressed here and you'll get ripped apart by some moron like yourself and you'll bust a nut over the flame war that ensues. Feel free to ignore my posts from now on. I mean really. Don't reply. You're not wanted. Just stay away.

    May your next ride be filled happiness, because as you have exemplified you are a happy guy.

    More like a "happy guy with his head so far up Tony Ellsworth's @ss I can't tell where he ends and you begin."

    Have a great f*cking day, you mindless f*ck.
    Last edited by osokolo; 11-23-2004 at 08:11 AM.

  57. #57
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    57
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob the Wheelbuilder
    I have several Apple computers, one PC and an Ellsworth Moment.

    Up until my post, I think lidarman is the only one in this thread who currently is riding an Ellworth. Some of the others have never owned one.

    In the real world, many riders have Ellsworth bikes and love them. Many of the people who hang out on the Ellsworth board are here for the entertainment value, not because they love Ellsworth Bikes.

    Do read the warranty posts here (the warranty on a new bike wouldn't be the troublesome "lifetime" version) and do your homework before buying a bike. I can highly recommend the Moment based on my personal experience. Only you can decide if it would be the right bike for you.

    LX or even the new Deore components are fine on a high end frame. If over time you break things or get "upgrade-itis," gradually put better parts on as you can afford them.

    Sorry Bob the Wheelbuilder and Ellsworth Disciples:

    You are sadly mistaken with your assumption that the individuals on this thread have never owned an Ellsworth. That is your rationalization of your loyalty to Ellsworth Bikes. If you visit the Turner board you will quickly realize that most of the people that own Turner's and other high quality boutique bike builder frames have previously owned Ellsworth Truth's and ID's.

    I am one of those individuals that owned a Truth for six months, did not break it, and at the end of the day did not find the ride quality that awe or confidence inspiring. For the money that I spent for an Ellsworth, I believed that a better ride experience was available. I thought the bike was nervous, twitchy and was flexy and noisy from axle to axle. When I purchased my Ellsworth my considerations were Turner, Titus, Ellsworth, and Yeti. Unfortunately, I was sold on the phone by one of Ellsworth's spin masters "you don't want to buy a Turner, it is too heavy, our bike is almost 1 pound lighter", and the proprietary technology of the ICT technology BS that Ellsworth likes to WOW his disciples with...unfortunately I bought into the hype and misinformation. For the aforementioned reasons, there is a reason that the Ellsworth is lighter. During, my Ellsworth ownership I conducted extensive A-B ride comparisons of the frame builders that have been mentioned. Ultimately after conducting several extensive off road rides of the Racer X, Switchblade, Yeti ASR, and Turner XCE the conclusion became obvious. Ultimately, the so called weight penalty of the Turner yielded a ride quality is infinitely quieter, more stable, turns on rails, confidence inspiring on descents, rides flatter...doesn't chopper, and no one builds a more stiffer rear-end than Turner. Additionally, the hype of the sealed bearings just results in future added expense, rear slop and noise.

    I have watched the Ellsworth site for some time and have elected to suppress my opinions. However, Ellsworth owners should really wake up and realized that there is a reasoned and rational conclusion why so many people have such a poor opinion of the company, its support of its clientele, the ownership and ultimately the product value proposition disconnect.

    Happy Singletracking

  58. #58
    Brass Nipples!
    Reputation: Bob the Wheelbuilder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    2,006
    Quote Originally Posted by kegbert1
    Sorry Bob the Wheelbuilder and Ellsworth Disciples:

    You are sadly mistaken with your assumption that the individuals on this thread have never owned an Ellsworth. That is your rationalization of your loyalty to Ellsworth Bikes. If you visit the Turner board you will quickly realize that most of the people that own Turner's and other high quality boutique bike builder frames have previously owned Ellsworth Truth's and ID's.

    I am one of those individuals that owned a Truth for six months, did not break it, and at the end of the day did not find the ride quality that awe or confidence inspiring. For the money that I spent for an Ellsworth, I believed that a better ride experience was available. I thought the bike was nervous, twitchy and was flexy and noisy from axle to axle. When I purchased my Ellsworth my considerations were Turner, Titus, Ellsworth, and Yeti. Unfortunately, I was sold on the phone by one of Ellsworth's spin masters "you don't want to buy a Turner, it is too heavy, our bike is almost 1 pound lighter", and the proprietary technology of the ICT technology BS that Ellsworth likes to WOW his disciples with...unfortunately I bought into the hype and misinformation. For the aforementioned reasons, there is a reason that the Ellsworth is lighter. During, my Ellsworth ownership I conducted extensive A-B ride comparisons of the frame builders that have been mentioned. Ultimately after conducting several extensive off road rides of the Racer X, Switchblade, Yeti ASR, and Turner XCE the conclusion became obvious. Ultimately, the so called weight penalty of the Turner yielded a ride quality is infinitely quieter, more stable, turns on rails, confidence inspiring on descents, rides flatter...doesn't chopper, and no one builds a more stiffer rear-end than Turner. Additionally, the hype of the sealed bearings just results in future added expense, rear slop and noise.

    I have watched the Ellsworth site for some time and have elected to suppress my opinions. However, Ellsworth owners should really wake up and realized that there is a reasoned and rational conclusion why so many people have such a poor opinion of the company, its support of its clientele, the ownership and ultimately the product value proposition disconnect.

    Happy Singletracking
    Your opinion, and you're entitled to it, of course.

    If you'd like to let me know who up to the point of my first post is currently riding an Ellsworth other than lidarman, I'd be interested to know. No Ellsworths listed on their profiles, anyway. You'll notice none of them corrected me on that point. The key to understanding my sentence is the word current, please read a little more carefully.

    I'm a rare one, I guess, but I had 2 Turners (for 4 years) and my wife also had one before we got our Ellsworths. Why can't you believe someone would like the brand if you don't? I don't personally have any time on a Truth but my wife loves hers. My Moment has been a great bike so far, that's all I can say about that. I don't agree with the way someowners of the 2001 Truths have been treated and I hope that a solution to the problem can be worked out that is fair to them. I've written my thoughts about that topic many times on that board.

    Did your pivot bearings fail in 6 months? That would suck. Turner's bushings are a good solution, especially in a foul weather environment.

    I'm glad you have a bike you like. I still love Turners. Don't assume that all people that own Ellsworths are ignorant of the issues.

    Oh, happy singletracking to you, too.
    {Principal Skinner} Hmm. Whoever did this is in very deep trouble.
    {Martin} And a sloppy speller too. The preferred spelling of 'wiener' is w - i - e - n - e - r, although 'e - i' is an acceptable ethnic variant.

  59. #59
    the cool nerd
    Reputation: sportsman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    8,643

    I love them both

    I've just read this thread or I might've posted earlier. I tend to lurk on the Ellsworth forum, with nothing meaningful to post as yet.

    I have a PBG4 (and I am an engineer, chemical engineer, not on a train) that I have never had probs with, an IPOD 40g that I'd hate to be without (I'd like to lose the scratches off the display though) and a 2003 Truth. So far, it has been a great bike that I have had no issues with, I do check it very closely for cracks now. When I ride my Truth, I do ride it very hard. I don't habtually drop anything greater than 4 feet, but I don't shy away from rocks or ledges when I'm riding

    I don't know that I would've come up with the comparison of apples and ellsworths, an I hope that I never have to learn about the customer service of either company

    scott

  60. #60
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    57
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob the Wheelbuilder
    Your opinion, and you're entitled to it, of course.

    If you'd like to let me know who up to the point of my first post is currently riding an Ellsworth other than lidarman, I'd be interested to know. No Ellsworths listed on their profiles, anyway. You'll notice none of them corrected me on that point. The key to understanding my sentence is the word current, please read a little more carefully.

    I'm a rare one, I guess, but I had 2 Turners (for 4 years) and my wife also had one before we got our Ellsworths. Why can't you believe someone would like the brand if you don't? I don't personally have any time on a Truth but my wife loves hers. My Moment has been a great bike so far, that's all I can say about that. I don't agree with the way someowners of the 2001 Truths have been treated and I hope that a solution to the problem can be worked out that is fair to them. I've written my thoughts about that topic many times on that board.

    Did your pivot bearings fail in 6 months? That would suck. Turner's bushings are a good solution, especially in a foul weather environment.

    I'm glad you have a bike you like. I still love Turners. Don't assume that all people that own Ellsworths are ignorant of the issues.

    Oh, happy singletracking to you, too.
    Bob the Wheel Builder:

    You are right, I did not catch the "current" in your sentence, correction noted. But you did say that some have never owned as well. Nevertheless, I am not trying to prove that I am right and that you are wrong, but I confidently believe that it is a false perception that only the 2001 Truth's have had problems. Moreover, I consistently hear of some design flaw for the 2001-year production run, but specifically what was the design flaw and why hasn't TE disclosed it? Ultimately, there have been scores of ID's and Truth's that have broken since the 2001production run.

    What I am offended at and what most Ellsworth's owners should be offended at is their arrogant and consistent attack of their clientele when a frame brakes. Instead of taking a an empathetic position that the company is sorry that situation has occurred and then trying to determine what the real reason for the breakage was, the company takes the same line of putting the customer on the defense by saying you were not using the bike as it was intended to be used or some kind or rider error. When you spend that kind of money for frame and then spend a substantial amount of money on chi chi parts, you would think that TE and his rogue employees would at least demonstrate some empathy for the very customer that is providing for their well being and employment. What leaves me scratching my head is if Ellsworth owners are aware of unreliability of the product, and poor customer support, why would their support and patronage continue?

    Lastly, there are many individuals in bike business that either have excellent reputations and others that have very poor reputations. The common dominator to possessing a good reputation in any industry is to have a genuine and sincere commitment to making sure that your customer base is well taking care of, demonstrate a high degree of integrity, and showing good faith. It is apparent that TE and Ellsworth Bikes has not delivered on these basic business relationship ideals.

  61. #61
    sock puppet
    Reputation: osokolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,061

    hey, fair enough...

    I thought Bob the Wheelman acknowledged your right for own opinion. Why repeat yourself?

    I join Bob in his comment to you. You are entitled to your own opinion. Thank you for sharing it with us. You didnt like Ellsworth BIkes and you purchased Turner and that is perfectly fine with me. If you are happy with your new bike, i am happy for you.

    Believe or not, since i joined this forum, i have visited Turner list once. It has been a year since i joined the old forum and then moved to this new one. Why would i want to spend time on Turner forum? No reason at all at this moment. I am not interested in another bike, i am not interested in what is going on over there etc.

    Although i (really) appreciate all well intended comments and advices coming from anyone, including Turner owners, i am still puzzled at, particularly Turner, owners who regularly visit Ellsworth forum for some reason. I dont know what the reason is. Maybe they want to feel better for choosing Turner and not Ellsworth, or you name it... I really dont know as most comments are not well intended...

    Let us live in our small bubble and dont burst it. We are stupid for buying Ellsworth product and let us be stupid... Why would you care?

    If people are interested in Ellsworth and Turner, they will most likely visit Turner board and ask questions. Go crazy in pissing on all other manufacturers on your list - i dont care.

    But no, that is no fun. Flaming Ellsworth owners on their own list is much more fun... Sigh. I am sure that there are good individuals on the Turner list. I've seen only few of them on the Ellsworth list so far. Most of those that drop by dont belong into that category...

    And before i forget, happy singletracking...

    Quote Originally Posted by kegbert1
    Bob the Wheel Builder:

    You are right, I did not catch the "current" in your sentence, correction noted. But you did say that some have never owned as well. Nevertheless, I am not trying to prove that I am right and that you are wrong, but I confidently believe that it is a false perception that only the 2001 Truth's have had problems. Moreover, I consistently hear of some design flaw for the 2001-year production run, but specifically what was the design flaw and why hasn't TE disclosed it? Ultimately, there have been scores of ID's and Truth's that have broken since the 2001production run.

    What I am offended at and what most Ellsworth's owners should be offended at is their arrogant and consistent attack of their clientele when a frame brakes. Instead of taking a an empathetic position that the company is sorry that situation has occurred and then trying to determine what the real reason for the breakage was, the company takes the same line of putting the customer on the defense by saying you were not using the bike as it was intended to be used or some kind or rider error. When you spend that kind of money for frame and then spend a substantial amount of money on chi chi parts, you would think that TE and his rogue employees would at least demonstrate some empathy for the very customer that is providing for their well being and employment. What leaves me scratching my head is if Ellsworth owners are aware of unreliability of the product, and poor customer support, why would their support and patronage continue?

    Lastly, there are many individuals in bike business that either have excellent reputations and others that have very poor reputations. The common dominator to possessing a good reputation in any industry is to have a genuine and sincere commitment to making sure that your customer base is well taking care of, demonstrate a high degree of integrity, and showing good faith. It is apparent that TE and Ellsworth Bikes has not delivered on these basic business relationship ideals.

  62. #62
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    57
    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    I thought Bob the Wheelman acknowledged your right for own opinion. Why repeat yourself?

    I join Bob in his comment to you. You are entitled to your own opinion. Thank you for sharing it with us. You didnt like Ellsworth BIkes and you purchased Turner and that is perfectly fine with me. If you are happy with your new bike, i am happy for you.

    Believe or not, since i joined this forum, i have visited Turner list once. It has been a year since i joined the old forum and then moved to this new one. Why would i want to spend time on Turner forum? No reason at all at this moment. I am not interested in another bike, i am not interested in what is going on over there etc.

    Although i (really) appreciate all well intended comments and advices coming from anyone, including Turner owners, i am still puzzled at, particularly Turner, owners who regularly visit Ellsworth forum for some reason. I dont know what the reason is. Maybe they want to feel better for choosing Turner and not Ellsworth, or you name it... I really dont know as most comments are not well intended...

    Let us live in our small bubble and dont burst it. We are stupid for buying Ellsworth product and let us be stupid... Why would you care?

    If people are interested in Ellsworth and Turner, they will most likely visit Turner board and ask questions. Go crazy in pissing on all other manufacturers on your list - i dont care.

    But no, that is no fun. Flaming Ellsworth owners on their own list is much more fun... Sigh. I am sure that there are good individuals on the Turner list. I've seen only few of them on the Ellsworth list so far. Most of those that drop by dont belong into that category...

    And before i forget, happy singletracking...
    Osokolo,

    As I mentioned in an early thread, I have watched the Ellsworth thread for an long period of time and have repressed my opinion. Additionally, I will assure you and the Ellsworth brethren, that this will be my last unwelcome comment on the Ellsworth product. However, I want to make clear my motivations for expressing my comments to this point.

    First, I cannot speak for the other Turner owners that write on this thread, but the reason for my occasional perusal of the Ellsworth thread is due to my curiosity being piqued as to frequency of frame breakage, and regularity of poor CS on behalf of TE and Ellsworth Bikes. I find it amazing that you can manufacture a product with the frequency of failure and consistent delivery of poor CS and still maintain a commensurate level of interest.

    Second, again I cannot speak for the other Turner owners that speak on this thread, but my comments are well intended. I genuinely and sincerely hope that an individual is fully informed as to the precedence of reliability and customer support that Ellsworth Bikes has demonstrated. I am not particularly biased towards Turner solely, I genuinely believe that Titus, Ventana, Intense, Santa Cruz, Maverick, Moots, Yeti, etc... Deliver a superior product and company to stand behind their product. I am not convinced that is the case with Ellsworth Bikes.

    Third, I am not trying burst the bubble of existing the Ellsworth clientele, I am motivated to providing a dissenting opinion with regards to the quality of the bikes, and the company that stands or does not stand behind them. My reference to existing owners is in connection with BTB comments that "Don't assume that all people that own Ellsworth’s are ignorant of the issues". With that comment in reference, why would individuals that have had a poor experience continue to recommend the product?

    4th I have never gone crazy pissing on the threads of the other bikes builders that have been mentioned, because it is not merited.

    Osokolo, it is not my intention to get into a pissing war with Ellsworth owners or to excessively inflame them, I participate in a group ride with 3 Truth owners and I have never spoken negatively with regards to the product or the company. Additionally, a good friend of mine owns a bike shop (that exclusively sells Intense, Moots,Yeti and Litespeed) and he sells more Ellsworth frames than any other mtn bike that he exclusive deals.

    That being said, the unpopular individuals that have expressed a passionate opinion with respect to a poor outcome in connection with TE and Ellsworth bikes are not trying to ruin your day. They just want to make sure that someone else does not have the same experience.

    Hoping everyone has an enjoyable Thanksgiving and rides as much singletrack as possible.

    Best regards

    Kegbert1

  63. #63
    sock puppet
    Reputation: osokolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,061

    Kegbert1

    i have only couple of remarks to share with you regarding your statement.

    i find your post relatively civil and almost well intended. I used terms "relatively" and "almost" for a reason.

    the "unpopular individuals" as you call them, well overstepped their "well intentions" trying to "inform" potential customers and put down some existing customers. It seems that you approve of that, since you see their work as "well intended". As I stated many times, all those who can contribute in positive way to the discussion on this list are welcome. I do however, have to question some "unpopular individuals" that never owned Ellsworth and never had any direct contact with the manufacturer. They just joined the band wagon for the sheer fun of it...

    Those that owned or still own Ellsworth product, and didnt have satisfactory experience with the manufacturer did come forward and expressed their dissatisfaction time and again. And this is fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But there is the other side of the coin. There are many valid owners who are in fact satisfied with the product and with the manufacturer. Although we do try to understand those that have broken their frames and didnt get the replacement the way they expected, some of those ignore the fact that we acknowledge their problem, more or less approve or disapprove the way they were treated, but are still happy Ellsworth owners.

    it seems to me that few 'unpopular individuals' would be only satisfied if we all sold our bikes and switched to "you insert the brand name" bikes. Nothing more, nothing less...

    i could be wrong in this estimation, but this is how i see it and i really dont think i am exaggerating. If this indeed is not their intention (and i really dont think at the end of the day it is), this is the way they come across.

    we all hear the story, hear it again and then we beat it to death. Happy owners try to bend backwards and understand the pain and disappointment of those unlucky ones, but they do not acknowledge the fact that we still like our bikes and are happy with the service we receive from the manufacturere...

    even you came here stating how Turner is superior to Ellsworth in every department etc... Hello? reality check... Ellsworth bikes are quality bikes. No one here ever said Turner bikes are POS. this is not a rocket science kegbert1...

    so to make the long story short, feel free to come in and throw your 2 cents, but address the issue with out addressing the Ellsworth clientele as a whole. Generalizing things will not get you any value. If you just described your experince with Ells, without questioning our choice of our bikes, that would have been well intended comment.

    by the way, did you do any singletrack today?


    Quote Originally Posted by kegbert1
    Osokolo,

    As I mentioned in an early thread, I have watched the Ellsworth thread for an long period of time and have repressed my opinion. Additionally, I will assure you and the Ellsworth brethren, that this will be my last unwelcome comment on the Ellsworth product. However, I want to make clear my motivations for expressing my comments to this point.

    First, I cannot speak for the other Turner owners that write on this thread, but the reason for my occasional perusal of the Ellsworth thread is due to my curiosity being piqued as to frequency of frame breakage, and regularity of poor CS on behalf of TE and Ellsworth Bikes. I find it amazing that you can manufacture a product with the frequency of failure and consistent delivery of poor CS and still maintain a commensurate level of interest.

    Second, again I cannot speak for the other Turner owners that speak on this thread, but my comments are well intended. I genuinely and sincerely hope that an individual is fully informed as to the precedence of reliability and customer support that Ellsworth Bikes has demonstrated. I am not particularly biased towards Turner solely, I genuinely believe that Titus, Ventana, Intense, Santa Cruz, Maverick, Moots, Yeti, etc... Deliver a superior product and company to stand behind their product. I am not convinced that is the case with Ellsworth Bikes.

    Third, I am not trying burst the bubble of existing the Ellsworth clientele, I am motivated to providing a dissenting opinion with regards to the quality of the bikes, and the company that stands or does not stand behind them. My reference to existing owners is in connection with BTB comments that "Don't assume that all people that own Ellsworth’s are ignorant of the issues". With that comment in reference, why would individuals that have had a poor experience continue to recommend the product?

    4th I have never gone crazy pissing on the threads of the other bikes builders that have been mentioned, because it is not merited.

    Osokolo, it is not my intention to get into a pissing war with Ellsworth owners or to excessively inflame them, I participate in a group ride with 3 Truth owners and I have never spoken negatively with regards to the product or the company. Additionally, a good friend of mine owns a bike shop (that exclusively sells Intense, Moots,Yeti and Litespeed) and he sells more Ellsworth frames than any other mtn bike that he exclusive deals.

    That being said, the unpopular individuals that have expressed a passionate opinion with respect to a poor outcome in connection with TE and Ellsworth bikes are not trying to ruin your day. They just want to make sure that someone else does not have the same experience.

    Hoping everyone has an enjoyable Thanksgiving and rides as much singletrack as possible.

    Best regards

    Kegbert1

  64. #64
    Rolling
    Reputation: lidarman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    11,114

    POLL: What response number did...

    this thread go south?

    However, I am impressed that it got back on track at reply # 57.

    Damn, a lot happened here while I was enjoying the twisty singletrack in Albuquerque, NM!
    Last edited by lidarman; 11-23-2004 at 08:56 PM.

  65. #65
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    57
    Osokolo,

    I completely agree and understand your point of view. I honestly believe that there is not a dislike for Ellsworth bikes and their owners, just TE and his integrity. The similarities in design philosophy between and Ellsworth, Ventana and Turner are readily apparent. I appreciate your responses and have enjoyed the interchange of perspectives that have been shared.

    And no unfortunately my clients did not allow me to do any singletrack today.

    Best regards,

    kegbert1


    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    i have only couple of remarks to share with you regarding your statement.

    i find your post relatively civil and almost well intended. I used terms "relatively" and "almost" for a reason.

    the "unpopular individuals" as you call them, well overstepped their "well intentions" trying to "inform" potential customers and put down some existing customers. It seems that you approve of that, since you see their work as "well intended". As I stated many times, all those who can contribute in positive way to the discussion on this list are welcome. I do however, have to question some "unpopular individuals" that never owned Ellsworth and never had any direct contact with the manufacturer. They just joined the band wagon for the sheer fun of it...

    Those that owned or still own Ellsworth product, and didnt have satisfactory experience with the manufacturer did come forward and expressed their dissatisfaction time and again. And this is fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But there is the other side of the coin. There are many valid owners who are in fact satisfied with the product and with the manufacturer. Although we do try to understand those that have broken their frames and didnt get the replacement the way they expected, some of those ignore the fact that we acknowledge their problem, more or less approve or disapprove the way they were treated, but are still happy Ellsworth owners.

    it seems to me that few 'unpopular individuals' would be only satisfied if we all sold our bikes and switched to "you insert the brand name" bikes. Nothing more, nothing less...

    i could be wrong in this estimation, but this is how i see it and i really dont think i am exaggerating. If this indeed is not their intention (and i really dont think at the end of the day it is), this is the way they come across.

    we all hear the story, hear it again and then we beat it to death. Happy owners try to bend backwards and understand the pain and disappointment of those unlucky ones, but they do not acknowledge the fact that we still like our bikes and are happy with the service we receive from the manufacturere...

    even you came here stating how Turner is superior to Ellsworth in every department etc... Hello? reality check... Ellsworth bikes are quality bikes. No one here ever said Turner bikes are POS. this is not a rocket science kegbert1...

    so to make the long story short, feel free to come in and throw your 2 cents, but address the issue with out addressing the Ellsworth clientele as a whole. Generalizing things will not get you any value. If you just described your experince with Ells, without questioning our choice of our bikes, that would have been well intended comment.

    by the way, did you do any singletrack today?

  66. #66
    sock puppet
    Reputation: osokolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,061

    kegbert1, the pleasure is mine...

    i wish the "unpopular individuals' shared a bit of your manners.

  67. #67
    sock puppet
    Reputation: osokolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,061

    so you didnt break your freme did you?

    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    this thread go south?

    However, I am impressed that it got back on track at reply # 57.

    Damn, a lot happened here while I was enjoying the twisty singletrack in Albuquerque, NM!
    i guess you were not pushing it... you were riding it like a real *****

  68. #68
    Brass Nipples!
    Reputation: Bob the Wheelbuilder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    2,006
    I've been offline most of the day. Sorry if everyone is tired of this.

    3 points:

    1. Some posters have never owned Ellsworths, I'm pretty sure. Tscheezy stated somewhere he would never own an Ellsworth, so I take that to mean he hasn't owned one. I'm not sure about Damion, but I think he hasn't either. That doesn't mean they don't have valuable opinions, but if you read the start of the thread, the original poster was thinking all the people who were telling him not to buy Ellsworth were Ellsworth owners.

    2. The 2001-2003 Truths had a "stress riser" or area of concentrated stress in the seat tube that develops metal fatigue and fractures with use. They really do break "just riding along." There were other past issues with specific model frames, but this Truth problem and how it is being dealt with is the crux of Ellsworth's woes currently. Not all their models are as prone to failure.

    3. I've owned Macintosh computers since 1984, when I bought an original 128k Mac. Some of my computers have sucked, most have been great. Sometimes my customer service was bad, sometimes it has been good. I'm going to keep using Mac's because they appeal to me. Bikes choice can be the same.
    {Principal Skinner} Hmm. Whoever did this is in very deep trouble.
    {Martin} And a sloppy speller too. The preferred spelling of 'wiener' is w - i - e - n - e - r, although 'e - i' is an acceptable ethnic variant.

  69. #69
    Lay off the Levers
    Reputation: Bikezilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    10,128

    Well I guess I better chime in to keep it real...

    ...Y'know just for the really real, real....really.


    ...long pause... I too owned an Apple... a 16k apple II, cassette drive, RF modulator and a b&w tv for a monitor... cost about a grand in '79 and it was the dopafied shafizzle pc of the time. IBM was still laughing at the PC industry before they almost lost their business to it.

    Oh wait, do people still talk about bikes in this forum?
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  70. #70
    Brass Nipples!
    Reputation: Bob the Wheelbuilder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    2,006
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    ...Y'know just for the really real, real....really.


    ...long pause... I too owned an Apple... a 16k apple II, cassette drive, RF modulator and a b&w tv for a monitor... cost about a grand in '79 and it was the dopafied shafizzle pc of the time. IBM was still laughing at the PC industry before they almost lost their business to it.

    Oh wait, do people still talk about bikes in this forum?
    Hey 'zilla, glad to see the old avatar.
    {Principal Skinner} Hmm. Whoever did this is in very deep trouble.
    {Martin} And a sloppy speller too. The preferred spelling of 'wiener' is w - i - e - n - e - r, although 'e - i' is an acceptable ethnic variant.

  71. #71
    sock puppet
    Reputation: osokolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,061

    really? i thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob the Wheelbuilder
    Hey 'zilla, glad to see the old avatar.
    the spandex one fit his personality better...

    ;-P

  72. #72
    Lay off the Levers
    Reputation: Bikezilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    10,128
    The other avatar, like my good friend Osokolo, was just a hollow-weenie...

    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  73. #73
    Drinker w/ Riding Problem
    Reputation: brado1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    5,327

    Dead Horse

    Just for the record I love my Ellsy.... Beats the **** out of the Voodoo i was Ridin'
    Attached Images Attached Images

  74. #74
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    3,984

    Irony

    Quote Originally Posted by brado1
    Just for the record I love my Ellsy.... Beats the **** out of the Voodoo i was Ridin'
    That picture is quite ironic........with the dead horse being Ellsworth.

  75. #75
    Negative Rep Points!!!!
    Reputation: Aquaholic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,035

    And this is the Crux of it!

    "I completely agree and understand your point of view. I honestly believe that there is not a dislike for Ellsworth bikes and their owners, just TE and his integrity". Kegbert1


    Well put!

    See, this exactly my beef against Tony Ellsworth. After the way I was treated with my '01 Truth implosion, by TE,himself, I don't care how nice his future bikes are. I would never, ever, EVER , consider giving that guy another dime from my pocket.

    And BTW, in retrospect, I really wish that I had taken the opportunity to read threads like this before purchasing that bike. It would have most definitely influnced by decision. That's the relevance of these threads, IMO.
    What the EFF is "All MOUNTAIN"???

  76. #76
    Are you talking to me?
    Reputation: damion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    3,883

    You are right, Bob.

    I have never owned an Ellsworth. I have, however, lusted after the bikes as long as I can remember being involved in Bicycling.
    I freely talked about the quality of the bikes, and the ADVERTIZED Lifetime warranty that Ellsworth bikes came with starting in about 1996. I am directly involved in the sale of at least 4 Ellworth bikes over the years, based on my reccomendation.

    That being said, after I "discovered" this site, and started reading about TE and his business practices, I was sick to my stomach. This discussion started on this site long before the new format came about.

    That is when I started forming my opinions. This info needs to be readily available, so that we can make informed decisions.


    (Hell, I still want a Dare, but I at this time, I am unwilling to support what I see as bad business practices. Current Colorado Cyclist catalogs are still advertizing Ellsworth bikes as having a lifetime waranty. There is no way that someone at Ellsworth does not know that.)
    gfy

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 68
    Last Post: 12-29-2004, 10:51 AM
  2. Anyone know about the '05 Ellsworths?
    By sugardare in forum Ellsworth
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 10-14-2004, 07:24 AM
  3. Apples to Oranges
    By cbchess in forum Bike and Frame discussion
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 09-24-2004, 06:17 AM
  4. Ellsworth's in New Zealand ??????
    By Whafe in forum Ellsworth
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 09-17-2004, 07:37 PM
  5. FSR XC Pro Disc or Giant VT
    By rpanning in forum Bike and Frame discussion
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 03-19-2004, 07:54 PM

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

mtbr.com and the ConsumerReview Network are business units of Invenda Corporation

(C) Copyright 1996-2018. All Rights Reserved.