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  1. #1
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    Anyone make a Ti or composite front Triangle for Truth?

    This may be a strange question, but I'm wondering if anyone else has had any experience in this. I have a couple Truths ('01 myself, '98 as my wife's bike - other postings related to this), but I also have an extra complete rear triangle for the '98 Truth. I even have a brand new bushing kit for it, and an extra couple of rear shocks.

    I'm wanting to put this to good use. What I'm thinking of is making a front triangle based on my wife's '98 frame, but out of either Ti or something else (carbon, fibreglas composite like the old Kestrels and Trimbles). Has anyone experimented in this at all? Anyone successfully made a front triangle out of anything (even aluminum)? I just think it'd be really cool to make a carbon or composite front triangle as a one-off that would be extremely unique, for XC racing. I need it to be light (I'm an XC weight-weenie), and stiff, so I want to shy away from steel (even though Steel is Real) unless this could be done in a comparable weight to the original '98 Truth frame.

    Any experience, thoughts, or anything else? I welcome any input. Thanks for looking.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canuck Doc
    This may be a strange question, but I'm wondering if anyone else has had any experience in this. I have a couple Truths ('01 myself, '98 as my wife's bike - other postings related to this), but I also have an extra complete rear triangle for the '98 Truth. I even have a brand new bushing kit for it, and an extra couple of rear shocks.

    I'm wanting to put this to good use. What I'm thinking of is making a front triangle based on my wife's '98 frame, but out of either Ti or something else (carbon, fibreglas composite like the old Kestrels and Trimbles). Has anyone experimented in this at all? Anyone successfully made a front triangle out of anything (even aluminum)? I just think it'd be really cool to make a carbon or composite front triangle as a one-off that would be extremely unique, for XC racing. I need it to be light (I'm an XC weight-weenie), and stiff, so I want to shy away from steel (even though Steel is Real) unless this could be done in a comparable weight to the original '98 Truth frame.

    Any experience, thoughts, or anything else? I welcome any input. Thanks for looking.
    I'd try this Merlin...its a Truth rear with a Ti front

    Perhaps they can ship the front triangle only

    [SIZE="3"]Works 4.0 XTR[/SIZE]

    The Works 4.0 is the culmination of intense research and testing to find the ultimate XC bike. Built around durable Merlin titanium MTS front triangle and matched with an ICT four bar link suspension system from Ellsworth are guaranteed a plush, proven ride quality. The Works 4.0 offers a performance partnership never seen in a titanium full suspension bicycle.

    • The most energy-efficient suspension design in the world.


    • ICT four-bar linkage technology provides up to 100% pedal power efficiency by aligning the instant center of the linkage on the chain torque line and continually tracking it throughout the range of travel.


    • ICT allows pedal power to propel the rider forward without power loss, effectively avoiding the common suspension design flaw that divides pedal inputs into a wasteful combination of forward and vertical motions.


    • ICT-equipped bikes feature 12mm pivot axles and oversized bearings for superior pivot stability and lateral stiffness under power.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  3. #3
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    Ellsworth is making TiTruths this year, they might be able to provide you with a frame, too.

    Didn't they change the rocker design though in 2002? They may not make a front triange to match the rear end you have. Some other Truth owners may have more info about this.

  4. #4
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    Nope, nothing newer will fit my '98 rear triangle...

    The Truth was redesigned before '02 - my '01 is significantly different from my '98. The rockers are a lot longer, making it more plush but less efficient (at least that's my experience). That's why I'm wondering if anyone has made their own or had someone build one - there's no way I'd find an old Ellsworth front triangle from them, and anything they make now won't match up.

    I'm looking forward to seeing that TiTruth, should be interesting. I'd rather make my own if possible, though, since I believe the older design is superior (for the reasons above - more efficient, and I'm wanting to use for racing, not comfort per se).

    Any thoughts?

  5. #5
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    If you are looking for a Ti front you most probably have to go custom. This is to say nothing of the fact you are looking for it in the most hard to work with metal (Ti, my personal favorite). Ti is not easy to weld or work with, and needs skill so expect to pay big time. I would suggest to either wait for a Ti truth or look for other options. The cost to you to do what you want compared to what is out there will put your costs "out there". Unless you are fantastically rich, you are probably waisting your money. What if the pivot locations on the front triangle are not right? Bikes are made as a whole, with the rear end and front in consideration. Your source for the front end might not understand the intricacies of the rear end. Or the stresses of the pivots and the locations. I think your idea is great, but a dream. There are too many variables, of which will all cost big time, to risk on your needs. I would rather wait for a finished Ti frame from Ellsworth rather than chance it based on your specific needs. You might find the front too flexy for the rear end (which was designed around an inherently rigid front aluminum front end) and you could lose front end stability, increased pivot wear (due to flex) and added stresses.

    Interesting idea, mating the old with the new, but unless you are made of money, I wouldn't chance it.

    Could be a very interesting but expensive mistake.

  6. #6
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    The truth changed in 2004 as well which installed a 200mm shock instead of the 165mm on previous models, which gave it a 2:1 ratio and i think put less load through the shock area. I think they also beefed up the rear triangle with extra welds.

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    Definitely NOT fantastically rich...

    but in my limited experience the older rode better than the newer. Just thought if I could find anyone that had done some private carbon (which would be really unique!) or Ti work, I could maybe get a front triangle made up. Seeing as I already have one (the original), it shouldn't be that bad to make a copy. But, I could be wrong.

    I used to onw a Ti company with a buddy, sold custom Ti frames in Canada (and a few in the US) along with other Ti stuff (cranks, stems, posts). My supplier dried up, so that died (it was never a profit thing, just fun and love for the sport). Just figured others may have had some experience. I knew of a local guy that worked for an aerospace industry that custom-made his own ti stuff, but I don't think that happens anymore. Figured there must be other stories like that.

    On another note, no one has commented on my belief that Ellsworth went for a different market after the '90's - namely, they were making light FS bikes for racing (efficient), and then focused on more enduro, 24 hr type stuff. The ads in the early '00's sure bore that out, marketing to 24hr types. As far as I know, they haven't made anything in a number of years that would be characterized as a pure XC race machine. Am I wrong? Is there anything else they now make that would fit that bill? Companies like Trek (carbon Fuel), Santa Cruz (Superlight), Intense (can't remember - Spyder?), Specialized, Cannondale (beercannondale, or Crack-n-fail), others, have made light FS frames specifically for XC.

    As a side rant, AMP was in my mind the first to address this, building FS bikes specifically for XC racing, going with light discs (another pioneer move) to build ultimate XC racing machines. I'm sure this will stir up controversy (or maybe not - most high-end XC or "good" FS frames use the "Horst Link", so not too much to argue there) but I sure miss my AMP B5 for lightness and efficiency.

  8. #8
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    I myself am a born and raise North Shore boy, and my first exposure to Ellsworth, long before it was known here, was the 99 Truth. Some were using it here but it was not made to last, and many broke (obviously). I invested in a 2000 Tube Dare and it was one of my personal favorites. I still imagine the bike and how it felt. And how proud I felt owing it. I moved on, to a 2001 Dare ( the first of the extruded Dares, now defunct) and it was a MAJOR improvement. I loved the 2000 tube Dare, for a number of reasons, but as the stresses increased, so did the needs. The 2001 Dare was heavier, but stiffer, stronger and better, in every way. Except for the non-replaceable hanger. Don't ask.

    In 2003, after some convincing, I moved to a 2003 Foes Fly, and I have never looked back. The bike is stiff, plush, and ramps up as needed, something NO ICT bike can do, regardless of shock. My buddy just sold his Rogue, with Fox DHX 5.0 shock, and despite the ramping shock, the bike could not overcome the inherent flat rate. The bike could not be plush on the small stuff without being harsh on big hits. Something the Fly excels at. Sadly, with time, the Dare design, being as good as it is, has been eclipsed. If it had not, I would still be on one.

    I think the direction Ellsworth is taking now is on those who have the cash, but not the knowhow. I mean this in this way: The hard core element, essential to riding, is being neglected knowing most of the market is soft core riding/ XC. No fault, but to think you can still market to the DH with no hard core DH bike or a FR bike that does not cut it is foolish. I am not lamenting the bikes Ellsworth has. They are perfect examples for those wanting medium travel for XC, or all day riding. They will not stand up to the continual pounding of the Shore, but they are well built for their INTENDED purpose. But it is not my purpose. Sadly, the old, 2000 Dare would be so easy to make now but they don't . I wonder why not.

    We all grow, as riders or companies. I grew apart from Ellsworth, and I think that many who used to own Jokers have grown apart form Ellsworth as well. You use to see them all the time on the Shore, now hardly ever. But Ellsworth has grown apart from this element as well, so it is to be expected. This is not to say Ellsworth is a bad company, but it has definitely shown to me to be a company based on financial principles rather than principles initself.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackfly
    I myself am a born and raise North Shore boy, and my first exposure to Ellsworth, long before it was known here, was the 99 Truth. Some were using it here but it was not made to last, and many broke (obviously). I invested in a 2000 Tube Dare and it was one of my personal favorites. I still imagine the bike and how it felt. And how proud I felt owing it. I moved on, to a 2001 Dare ( the first of the extruded Dares, now defunct) and it was a MAJOR improvement. I loved the 2000 tube Dare, for a number of reasons, but as the stresses increased, so did the needs. The 2001 Dare was heavier, but stiffer, stronger and better, in every way. Except for the non-replaceable hanger. Don't ask.

    In 2003, after some convincing, I moved to a 2003 Foes Fly, and I have never looked back. The bike is stiff, plush, and ramps up as needed, something NO ICT bike can do, regardless of shock. My buddy just sold his Rogue, with Fox DHX 5.0 shock, and despite the ramping shock, the bike could not overcome the inherent flat rate. The bike could not be plush on the small stuff without being harsh on big hits. Something the Fly excels at. Sadly, with time, the Dare design, being as good as it is, has been eclipsed. If it had not, I would still be on one.

    I think the direction Ellsworth is taking now is on those who have the cash, but not the knowhow. I mean this in this way: The hard core element, essential to riding, is being neglected knowing most of the market is soft core riding/ XC. No fault, but to think you can still market to the DH with no hard core DH bike or a FR bike that does not cut it is foolish. I am not lamenting the bikes Ellsworth has. They are perfect examples for those wanting medium travel for XC, or all day riding. They will not stand up to the continual pounding of the Shore, but they are well built for their INTENDED purpose. But it is not my purpose. Sadly, the old, 2000 Dare would be so easy to make now but they don't . I wonder why not.

    We all grow, as riders or companies. I grew apart from Ellsworth, and I think that many who used to own Jokers have grown apart form Ellsworth as well. You use to see them all the time on the Shore, now hardly ever. But Ellsworth has grown apart from this element as well, so it is to be expected. This is not to say Ellsworth is a bad company, but it has definitely shown to me to be a company based on financial principles rather than principles initself.

    Do you ever stop complaining?

  10. #10
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    Blackfly, you poosted a well thought out post in this thread, then you had to come with you usual stuff.. Thought you had come of age, was impressed, but am re thinking on the impressed bit..........You will get cancer from complaining, that would suck...
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackfly
    I think the direction Ellsworth is taking now is on those who have the cash, but not the knowhow.
    Ahh another fantastic sweeping generalisation of people he knows jack about. Apparently I have the cash but not the knowhow. Looks like my 20 years of riding have come to nothing

    Right I'm off out to the shore, cos you know I'm was born of the shore - hardcore to the core, rad dude.
    "[SIZE="3"][SIZE="2"]but I do not see anything in the world of suspension methods that is superior to the 4 Bar.

    Dave Turner[/SIZE][/SIZE]

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    I was not going to respond, but since you did not even read the post I thought I might. I am NOT complaining, but simply pointing out observations from having "been there". I suspect this will fall on deaf ears given the intelligence of the post you made, but obviously, with all brands, some cannot take the fact that there may be other brands that may be better or at least as good. I have never said Ellsworth is bad, but only that it was going in the right direction and now is far from what I saw to be excellent. Period.

    We all can have blinders on or have selective reading. But if I wanted to complain that would imply I am a current Ellsworth owner and am *****ing about a frame I have. I do not.

    But those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it. I saw Ellsworth heading in a direction that was not only profitable but reliable and trustworthy. My 2001 Dare was stable, solid and strong. Not something I can say about many Shore specific bikes. Dangerous Dan, riding the Dare, to my knowledge (and I am a religious patron to his home shop, On Top) only broke 1 extruded Dare on a freak hit. Not bad. Ask Wade Simmons how may Rocky Mountains he has gone through.

    But really, I don't care. I ran into 2 riders on Mt. Fromme recently who were both Ellsworth Dare owners (2005 models). They were both from Portland. They were here to "ride the Shore" as they told me. I told them I used to own 2 Dares, and they obviously asked why. I gave the usual response that I will not go into here. I noted that they were going down "hardcore trails", as they put it, as they remembered from only a couple of months previous. Lower Oilcan. The easiest trail on Fromme. I noted as well the bikes were in excellent shape with little evidence of hard use (not abuse, I can tell) and the riders were in their mid 30's and obviously in white collar jobs, as they were discussing investment banking, IPO's and other relevant material. I rode behind them in silent for 30 minutes. There was no discussion of any kind, in that time, about anything bike related, or the fact they were about to descend on the best terrain on earth. Money, and image, were more important.

    Nuff said.

    I never did get names, but both bikes were beautifully made, welded, and dead arrow straight. Pedalled extremely well (both riders never bobbed, not once). I cannot say how they descended, but the bike did on the climb exactly as I remembered it.

    And to think, it is no longer in the inventory.

  13. #13
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    My posts are always well thought out. That is the best defence. I do not complain. I lament. I saw a company head in the right direction, with a bike I was dear to love and had myself, only to see the direction take a 180. How would you feel?

    I am saddened to see this happen. At one time, the Joker was THE bike to have. I rarely see them now, and those that do only ride them till they expire to get something else. How can a company, who had everything going for them, let it all go wrong? I have NEVER complained about the quality or workmanship. It is better than most. But I had to see what I loved and cared about obviously be not cared or loved about enough by the right people. I moved on, but do you think I would give this much time and effort to a bike company I do not patron if I did not care? I could ignore all the responses and not lose one wink of sleep.

    But I am trying to make those out there that you cannot always judge on what you see alone. Heart, and soul, matter.

    It does to me.

    I would be just as upset, even moreso, if Foes did the same 180 on the FR/DH market as Ellsworth did. And, Ellsworth had local heros riding and promoting its goods. Something Foes has never done.

    And by the way, cancer can be beating if you are strong enough........

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    *yawn

    Blackfly the only post I did not bother to read is everything after the one I responded to. If you posts are so well thought out why do the majority of them complain about the exact same things. Honestly, do you just like to type long paragraphs of nonsense to make you feel better about your Foes purchase? Do you just like arguing? Do you actually ride that damn bike or do you spend all your time sitting on here writing those long complaints? Dude all I am trying to say is instead of being annoying and flamming everyones posts why dont you either keep with saying the positive things you say while "intelligently" pointing out negatives (and not the same old crap you constantly point out) or just go ride your damn bike for once and make everyone including hopefully yourself a bit happier.

    PS. Sorry to ***** about that crap in your thread Canuck Doc

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackfly
    My posts are always well thought out. That is the best defence. I do not complain. I lament. I saw a company head in the right direction, with a bike I was dear to love and had myself, only to see the direction take a 180. How would you feel?

    I am saddened to see this happen. At one time, the Joker was THE bike to have. I rarely see them now, and those that do only ride them till they expire to get something else. How can a company, who had everything going for them, let it all go wrong? I have NEVER complained about the quality or workmanship. It is better than most. But I had to see what I loved and cared about obviously be not cared or loved about enough by the right people. I moved on, but do you think I would give this much time and effort to a bike company I do not patron if I did not care? I could ignore all the responses and not lose one wink of sleep.

    But I am trying to make those out there that you cannot always judge on what you see alone. Heart, and soul, matter.

    It does to me.

    I would be just as upset, even moreso, if Foes did the same 180 on the FR/DH market as Ellsworth did. And, Ellsworth had local heros riding and promoting its goods. Something Foes has never done.

    And by the way, cancer can be beating if you are strong enough........


    I know a few Foes riders who have more money then riding ability and know how. The bikes they ride are immaculate, they work in the city in the financial district. Obviously this observation of a couple of people out of millions of MTB'ers I can conclude that Foes is just a boutique brand.

    It's sad the direction Foes is going in. Perhaps I'll go and bore the Foes forum.
    "[SIZE="3"][SIZE="2"]but I do not see anything in the world of suspension methods that is superior to the 4 Bar.

    Dave Turner[/SIZE][/SIZE]

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    Sadly, Foes is far more represented on the Shore than Ellsworth is. There are Foes authorized dealers; I cannot say the same for Ellsworth. You do not carry a brand that will be a headache in the end. There may be the "high end" riders of Foes here, but all on the Shore are hard riders who know what the bike can do and what its limits are. There are no unsatisfied Foes owners to my knowledege. I cannot say the same of Ellsworth owners.

    Non Shore residents or patrons of local shops cannot appreciate this but at one time Ellsworth was THE bike to have. Dangerous Dan had it, as did Tyler Klassen. The designs were strong, rode well and despite the price, justifiable. But the truth was out.

    Even local riders, and not in the Super T class, were finding the Joker rear ends to have issues. Since most riders afforded only what they could, the Joker, not the Dare, was chosen. Except for Dangerous Dan, who is above inclusion, I know of NO Dare that ever broke on the Shore. Jokers did by the many, and since many were owned, the word was out. You do not see Ellsworth ridden or carried anymore. No shop wants the headaches that On Top went through on Ellsworth making good on their warranties. Eventually, others fill in the gaps. Foes is a limited bike in limited numbers. You see a lot of Banshee, Brodie, Norco and Knolly is gaining popularity.

    I rode today. I had a MRI last week and I am living with 3 torn ligaments in my left knee. And I am still riding. Whether it is a Foes or Ellsworth, I am there. I will get healed, and be back, but bodies are easy to fix. Heart and soul, so essential to riding, is not. It is easy to think that high end bikes are for the rich. Be honest, not every rider can afford high end bikes. The rich can, by their very virtue, so saying richies have Foes' is unfair. They have Turners, Nicolais and Sevens too. And not know the difference. But Ellsworth had the chance to show they did know the difference and gave up. That is what upsets me. And my knee. But it made no difference today.

    At least I will not be using the Superbowl as my excuse tomorrow.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackfly
    The rich can, by their very virtue, so saying richies have Foes' is unfair. They have Turners, Nicolais and Sevens too.
    Ah so I say I know a couple of guys with all the gear and know idea who ride Foes - but that's unfair! You didn't mention Turners and Nicolai in your original whinge and moan?

    Is anyone else getting bored of these repetitive posts? Blackfly, you've had your say, you don't like Ells anymore. So why don't you move on? Please can you explain (without going all Rad and Shore) why you come on this forum? If I did the same to the Foes forum how would you feel?
    "[SIZE="3"][SIZE="2"]but I do not see anything in the world of suspension methods that is superior to the 4 Bar.

    Dave Turner[/SIZE][/SIZE]

  18. #18
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    blackfly, you do have some intelligent thoughts and offerings. I guess the issue here is the delivery..............

    Some guys just walk straight up to woman in the bar and ssay come home to bed with me, generally they will get kicked in the balls, but sometimes succeed... Need I say more....

    I guess you also only come in here for a side swipe, not that you think you are doing that, but htat is how the delivery comes across.....
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  19. #19
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    I read a number of threads now where Blackfly gets ripped up everytime he posts regardless of comment. I know a common theme runs in his writings but he is entitled to this. There is a difference to disagreeing a point and bagging the guy. It's proberly not the smartest thing rubbishing Ellsworth on this forum but shows he's passionate. I just reckon he should get a fair go like everyone else, you'd be cranky if your good bike broke.
    IMO the whole NS downhill thing is a bit silly, who wants to push a stupid bike to the top and bomb down when more than half the fun is getting to the top. Go the Tiruth.

  20. #20
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    Indeed Jimmy, you are correct. It would be a little different if blackfly hung out here when he wasnt trying to get his point accross. I guess that is the main issue, we only gain his presence when he complains. I too feel blackfly has some pertinent points for sure, but maybe hearing those more often when not having a dig would be good. Also this group is ablt to take constructive complaints with ease, thats what the forums is for amongst other things. But to continuely get the grief about a percieved change in company direction, & only for the money. Welcome to the real world..

    For the record, I loved my Dare............ As did blackfly, I dont believe blackfly actually broke his either... Could be wrong though.



    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy L
    I read a number of threads now where Blackfly gets ripped up everytime he posts regardless of comment. I know a common theme runs in his writings but he is entitled to this. There is a difference to disagreeing a point and bagging the guy. It's proberly not the smartest thing rubbishing Ellsworth on this forum but shows he's passionate. I just reckon he should get a fair go like everyone else, you'd be cranky if your good bike broke.
    IMO the whole NS downhill thing is a bit silly, who wants to push a stupid bike to the top and bomb down when more than half the fun is getting to the top. Go the Tiruth.
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  21. #21
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    Anyway...

    Back to the topic at hand:

    Yes, you can get a titanium Truth and it will be an Ellsworth (not a Merlin, although that frame is pretty sick, too). It is going to be made to order (limited quantities and semi-custom sizing - details to follow) and should be available in the next month or so. It won't be inexpensive (depending upon your perspective) and is really trick. It has the same geometry and ICT as the '07 Truth and you will probably be the only kid on the block with one.

    Hope this helps.

    -Mondo
    Sold the Id; riding the Rogue, saving for an Evolve...I ride, I know.

    mondo@thepathbikeshop.com

    http://www.thepathbikeshop.com

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