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  1. #1
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    04 Joker 7 Coil Size

    I've got a 450# coil on my 04 Joker 7. For my weight, 160lbs, Ellsworth recommends a 350# coil. If I'm not mistaken with the 450# coil I've measured about 20-25% sag with no preload. The ride is pretty firm but I did bottom once in 2 days at the lifts of NorthStar. I probably should try the 400# coil, but I'm a bit confused by the 350# recommendation from Ellsworth.

    What rate coils are you Jokers out there running?

  2. #2
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    JOKER 7 Springrate

    Dude I'm at Northstar right now. The trails are insane!
    Springrate recommendations are highly subjective to your usage.
    I weigh 154lbs and the 350lb is perfect for all around XC/Freeride usage.
    You want to occasionally get deep into the 2.5 of stroke your shock has to offer.
    Hardcore riders like yourself should bump up the springrate accordingly.
    Huckers will usually (if they have common sense) get their shocks revalved with a heavier compression shim configuration, and also bump the springrate way up like 550-600lbs. Roger Hurd @ ROMIC has turned out a 600 x 2.5 spring for the heavy hitters.
    ROMIC will also perform the heavy compression mods for a nominal fee.
    If you are charging Duststar and you only bottomed out once or twice your springrate is probably perfect, mmm maybe a bit oversprung. You did not mention your preload and compression damping settings. Yesterday I was bottoming out off the rock drop at lower Karpiel, Dogbone rock drop, and lower Boondocks. This would be considered perfectly acceptable.
    It sounds like your dialed, maybe get a lighter spring for trailriding and keep the 450 for trips up to the mountains. I'll be up on the hill today. Cheers.
    Last edited by Ellsworth Bicycles; 08-18-2004 at 09:57 AM.

  3. #3
    Jm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rprice
    I've got a 450# coil on my 04 Joker 7. For my weight, 160lbs, Ellsworth recommends a 350# coil. If I'm not mistaken with the 450# coil I've measured about 20-25% sag with no preload. The ride is pretty firm but I did bottom once in 2 days at the lifts of NorthStar. I probably should try the 400# coil, but I'm a bit confused by the 350# recommendation from Ellsworth.

    What rate coils are you Jokers out there running?

    it's a single pivot, which means at best it approaches being linear, and at worst it can be a dramatic falling rate.

    With this in mind, the spring rate that you must use on a single pivot bike WITHOUT a progressive shock will be HIGHER than the same stroke and rear travel on a bike that has progressive linkages. Say bike A is a progressive linkage bike, it starts out with 500lbs required to compress the spring, near the end of the travle it may be more like 600lbs or more because of the progression. With a single pivot bike B, you could be looking at 450 to 400lbs required at the end of travel with the same spring you had on the progressive bike. This means that to get the same ending-force required to compress the spring at the end of travel (what keeps a bike from bottoming) you need a much stiffer spring, so the beginning of the travel is not going to feel as plush as on a linkage bike, but to keep it from bottoming you'll need a spring that is HEAVIER than what you'd need for a similer bike that has linkages.

    On a single pivot bike, 350lbs is way too light unless you have some sort of progressive shock, and even then it is still on the light side. Realistically, 450lbs would probably be a good start for you, given the bike's design, and you could need even more...

    I've had plenty of single pivot bikes and linkage bikes, this is one of the biggest differences between them, and it is the reason that progressive came out with the 5th element. With the 5th element, you can set up a bike to have a lower initial spring rate, and still "ramp up" at the end of travel. It gets around the problem that I've mentioned above and doesn't make for a harsh initial spring rate.

    The intricacies of single pivot bikes.

    If you need further evidence or understanding just look at the spring rates that were required for bullit riders using fox shocks (550-750lbs) and then compare with the 5th element spring rates for the bike (325-400 or so). My foes is exactly the same, needed a 550lb fox spring, but with the curnut it works fine with a 400lb.
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  4. #4
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    I weigh 150 lbs. and had a 450# spring on my romic when i had it. i bottomed all the time! It wasnt good! i did a 3 ft jump in may and heard a big POW! i wondered what that was and my frame had broken at where the swing arm bolts on. I got the new joker 7 frame and now i have a fox with a 500# pound spring and it is just right for me! THis saturday im goin to Moab for a week with my boy scout troop and it be will be the first actuall ride with the fox i cant wait!

    http://gallery.mtbr.com/showphoto.ph...sort=1&cat=501

    Thats where the photo of my bike is at, it was to large to put in the forums! I will be taking pics though when i get my new brakes!

  5. #5
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    Romic question...

    Thanks for the feedback.

    I'm running a Romic that has the rebound and compression adjustments. My understanding is that the compression adjustment is a "low speed" adjustment that is used to prevent pedal bob and doesn't effect the bottom end of the travel. Is this correct?

    Even with the compression adjustment at minimum I don't notice any bob with the 450# spring which makes me think that I should try a 400# spring. But at the same time the sag doesn't seem too far off (20%ish) and I have got the 450# spring to bottom. I guess my question is how much difference will a 400# spring make?

  6. #6
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    my fault i didnt have a 450# spring i had a 400...just checked to make sure..its been so long since ive ridden it in all...

  7. #7
    Jm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rprice
    My understanding is that the compression adjustment is a "low speed" adjustment that is used to prevent pedal bob and doesn't effect the bottom end of the travel. Is this correct?
    That's correct, and even if you had a high-speed compression adjuster, that wouldn't help you, one situation where bottoming often happens is under slow speed impacts, although what we are referring to is the shaft speed of the shock under impact. Doing drops and jumps is actualy a slow-speed impact as seen by the shock, but you can't control bottoming with a low-speed compression adjustment because it doesn't go "high enough" to actually do this, and this is just one facet of bottoming. You can also bottom it under high speed conditions as well, so what all this really means is that increased progressiveness or spring rate are the only things that will affect the bottoming.
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  8. #8
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    JM giving advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    That's correct, and even if you had a high-speed compression adjuster, that wouldn't help you, one situation where bottoming often happens is under slow speed impacts, although what we are referring to is the shaft speed of the shock under impact. Doing drops and jumps is actualy a slow-speed impact as seen by the shock, but you can't control bottoming with a low-speed compression adjustment because it doesn't go "high enough" to actually do this, and this is just one facet of bottoming. You can also bottom it under high speed conditions as well, so what all this really means is that increased progressiveness or spring rate are the only things that will affect the bottoming.
    JM,

    Good to see that you are giving some advice and not bashing. On the Ellsworth site no less. Unless I am referring to another JM but I dont think so. How do you like your bike? I hear good things about Foes.

  9. #9
    Jm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronny
    JM,

    Good to see that you are giving some advice and not bashing. On the Ellsworth site no less. Unless I am referring to another JM but I dont think so. How do you like your bike? I hear good things about Foes.
    like it just fine, same geometry as a 5 spot but a slight bit more travel. It's a fun fun bike.
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  10. #10
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    No Foes in Calgary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    like it just fine, same geometry as a 5 spot but a slight bit more travel. It's a fun fun bike.
    I wanted to test a FXR out but the only Foes dealer in Calgary, Alberta went out of business. The only problem is that like Ellsworth, Foes is super pricy. The only reason I could afford my Joker is because it was a demo bike and I got it for relatively cheap. Canadian prices are insane. The new Joker frame retails for 2400.00+ tax. The Foes was up around that mark in Canada also. Having a titanium spring drove the price up around another 170$ on the Foes. The Joker frame in the States is like 1595.00 or less. It is so much cheaper to build up a nice bike in the States as compared to Canada. I hear guys in the States complain because their ride cost 2500.00 to 3000.00. Up here 3000.00 is a total bargain to build a bike with all of the goodies on it.

  11. #11
    Jm.
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    I dont feel it's right to spew off about how much I love my bike, but know that I do love it, I got it for certain reasons, and it's been excellent. I'll tell you about them in the WBTB forum or in private message if you like. The joker is definitely more of a freeride bike than the FXR, which is a trail bike. It's been a great XC/trail bike for me so far.
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

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