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  1. #26
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    Reading Barry's affidavits. On point 62 he outs a pro mountain biker but it's blacked out.

    Damn lines blacked out.

  2. #27
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    Thing about Lance being stripped of his wins.. Who cares?

    If he did dope, he robbed whoever the "rightful" winner should have been. Sure, you could write his name in the books, but he doesn't get any of the proper glory that would have come from a win. And with several of the 2nd place or 3rd place riders being caught earlier, the whole podium looks questionable at best.

    A win after the fact isn't a win.

    Make them piss before they ride. If they pass, they ride. Don't give me someone else's trophy 10 years later and tell me I win. That's weak.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyrblade View Post
    Make them piss before they ride. If they pass, they ride. Don't give me someone else's trophy 10 years later and tell me I win. That's weak.
    they'll pass that test just like they pass all the other tests. maybe even easier because they'll know 100% that it's happening.
    RIP Adam Yauch

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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyrblade View Post
    Thing about Lance being stripped of his wins.. Who cares?
    I care.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyrblade View Post
    If he did dope, he robbed whoever the "rightful" winner should have been. Sure, you could write his name in the books, but he doesn't get any of the proper glory that would have come from a win. And with several of the 2nd place or 3rd place riders being caught earlier, the whole podium looks questionable at best.
    Likely just a blank space or asterisk to be placed on the historical records.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyrblade View Post
    Make them piss before they ride. If they pass, they ride. Don't give me someone else's trophy 10 years later and tell me I win. That's weak.
    That would be nice, but a complete test suite involves a non-trivial laboratory process that takes some period of time (unless they have a week to wait around for all the samples to be processed before each start), and would be financially impossible to do for every rider before every race because of high cost of testing.

    It's understood that the standard yes/no tests are only one tool in the toolbox of an anti-doping agency, that will only ensnare riders who mess up their doping programs, or get caught by bad luck and wild odds on a fruitful random test. The full package of anti-doping initiatives has to include other analytical positives such as longitudinal blood profiling, and also non-analytical investigative evidence.

    Can't peg the delay of so many years on USADA, which wasn't even involved with the testing at that time, and only recently has had the reason and opportunity go back over previous years. USADA has only been into the Armstrong investigation for the last 1-2 years, stepping up to follow the initial trail of Landis-related information from a doping perspective after the U.S. Department of Justice decided to cease its investigation for fraud related criminal charges.

  5. #30
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    Here is some advice for USADA: concentrate on today and the future, because going back all those years is a waste of time and money. Strictly speaking you will have to get rid of "winners" until you hit the guy who was not tested at all. What exactly is the point? We know that Lance and everyone else doped. Let it go.
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious View Post
    Here is some advice for USADA: concentrate on today and the future, because going back all those years is a waste of time and money.
    Yet, that's exactly what they've done and are doing with Armstrong. The case wasn't just about him, even though he's hogging all the media headlines as one might expect. The charging document was for five people in total - Armstrong, three team doctors, and one very notable team director (Johan Bruyneel). At the time of the charges, Armstrong was still actively competing in triathlon events that were under USADA's anti-doping portfolio, and the rest were still actively involved with teams and riders in professional cycling. In addition, several other riders on the witness list have now been sanctioned also, several of whom gave testimony about how they were partially complicit in having other riders start down the path of doping. They couldn't tackle any of this machine without going after Armstrong at the same time. They couldn't allow Armstrong to beat the rap, because then it disproves the case against the rest.

    After reviewing the above tell me again how charging and sanctioning Armstrong isn't about today and the future.

  7. #32
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    Remember when

    Floyd Landis went public with allegations of doping against US Postal a couple of years back and everyone dismissed it as sour grapes/false? No irony there....

    Maybe Floyd should get some props now for having the cojones to go public with this information back then? Thoughts?
    Strava made me do it....

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued View Post
    Floyd Landis went public with allegations of doping against US Postal a couple of years back and everyone dismissed it as sour grapes/false? No irony there....

    Maybe Floyd should get some props now for having the cojones to go public with this information back then? Thoughts?
    USADA freely states that it was Landis' whistle blowing that kicked off the whole investigation. BTW not everyone though it was false, despite his prior history of deception. However, I think if you went back to review the entire circumstances of Landis' story, you'd find it was not so altruistic. He was essentially trying to blackmail Armstrong's team into giving him a contract as a rider. They wouldn't, and that was the final straw that left Landis with essentially no life, at which point he went sort of "postal" (pat myself on back for ironic use of word postal in this context) and adopted an approach of burn it all down.

  9. #34
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    So.. who went for a bike ride instead of wading through endless streams of ... He Said.. They said He Said and He's a party pooper email drama?
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    So.. who went for a bike ride instead of wading through endless streams of ... He Said.. They said He Said and He's a party pooper email drama?
    Fortunately, I have time for both!

    Speaking to directly to the subject through, to be absolutely correct it's actually he said vs. 26 of them said. Sorry to burst your bubble of deification.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious View Post
    Here is some advice for USADA: concentrate on today and the future, because going back all those years is a waste of time and money. Strictly speaking you will have to get rid of "winners" until you hit the guy who was not tested at all. What exactly is the point? We know that Lance and everyone else doped. Let it go.
    Amen. The USADA has probably spent 10's of millions of dollars trying to catch water that has long been gone under their bridge.

    Clearly,the entire upper echelon of cyclists in that era were dopers. Jeez, Barry never even rode in the Tour and he was doping??? Who should have those seven Tours? The French amateur champions?
    "I love being on a bike. It helps me feel free. I get it from my dad", by Guillaume Blanchet

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biggie View Post
    Amen. The USADA has probably spent 10's of millions of dollars trying to catch water that has long been gone under their bridge.
    I've give my reasons already in my response to serious explaining why I believe this is way more of a here and now issue than water under the bridge, but everyone will have to make up their own mind on that.

    On the financial side though, that level of expenditure is not possible. USADA's entire operating budget is about $12-$13 million/year, and they have a lot more in their portfolio of responsibilities than just this investigation. They've been at it for about two years now. I heard a figure (not validated in any way) that pegged their expense in the range of a few million. Not pocket change, but not 10's of millions either.

    Why don't we turn this around and say that it's Armstrong who is consuming U.S. taxpayer resources (via partial government funding to private organization USADA), since the entire investigation and its expenses could have been circumvented if had not chosen to repeatedly lie year after year, and use every legal resource and dirty trick at his disposal to hide evidence and information? He fought it tooth and nail, and in doing so cost millions of extra dollars with the process.

    It's been said that USADA is doing this for publicity and self-promotion. To that I say of course they have! Their function is anti-doping, and if one of their ways of doing that is awareness, then they need to promote their ability to charge and sanction as a deterrent to the current generation. If nobody knows about it, then it's not much of a deterrent, is it?

    As it stands, they get huge value with massive worldwide media coverage showing that no one is too big to fail, even when their personal resources dwarf USADA's budget. Excellent value for their time and expense, IMHO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggie View Post
    Clearly,the entire upper echelon of cyclists in that era were dopers. Jeez, Barry never even rode in the Tour and he was doping??? Who should have those seven Tours? The French amateur champions?
    I vote for (preferably) blank space or if not then asterisk in the historical results.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post

    Speaking to directly to the subject through, to be absolutely correct it's actually he said vs. 26 of them said. Sorry to burst your bubble of deification.
    Sorry to screw up your promenade. Pre cycling Lance is more my thing. Now if you want deification in the endurance sports world,

    Tom Warren
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    Dave Lord of The Lave Scott
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    Just to name a few.
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  14. #39
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    who is Lance?

    dude - this is not about one man - who cares about Lance...

    this is about organized cheating in sports... it is about perfectly organized doping scheme that is scary... they were changing their blood in the bus or hotel room in totally unsterile conditions with a bunch of people around them making sure that nothing leaks out...

    if your stomach is not turning just thinking about it - and all you can say is "who cares" then i can only shake my head in disbelief... the fact that Lance sued people for libel, and won multimillion lawsuits yet he knew he was cheating and those people were right - is outright sick... the past must be defeated and young kids should see that cheating doesn't pay...

    i can't believe anyone can say - who cares... we all should care... Lance was a hero to millions - defeated cancer and then dominated the sport for so long... now he is hero no more. he shattered many dreams... it is really sad...

    for that reason - USADA has done a great job... they were David vs the Goliath - organized doping criminals... one of only few examples where justice wins, despite less money and power... maybe there is hope after all...


    Quote Originally Posted by Fyrblade View Post
    Thing about Lance being stripped of his wins.. Who cares?

    If he did dope, he robbed whoever the "rightful" winner should have been. Sure, you could write his name in the books, but he doesn't get any of the proper glory that would have come from a win. And with several of the 2nd place or 3rd place riders being caught earlier, the whole podium looks questionable at best.

    A win after the fact isn't a win.

    Make them piss before they ride. If they pass, they ride. Don't give me someone else's trophy 10 years later and tell me I win. That's weak.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    this is about organized cheating in sports... it is about perfectly organized doping scheme that is scary... they were changing their blood in the bus or hotel room in totally unsterile conditions with a bunch of people around them making sure that nothing leaks out...
    And if anyone actually thinks this will change anything is delusional at best.

    Reality as shown at the London Olympics cheating is and has always been part of sport. Whether that be matching fixing in Badminton, 1988 Seoul 100m, or the 1998 Duathlon World's drafting scandal. There are endless examples. So in the end all we can really do is minimize what they can do.

    Flip.. the only reason Marijuana is a banned substance isn't for it's performance enhancing qualities. It's simpler to do that then have another Rebliatti fiasco of dealing with different countries laws on the stuff. Reality check... it's all about greed. And if there was no other incentives other then a lousy trophy or medal the the Kenyan's and Ethiopians wouldn't be getting on the EPO band wagon. But then again no one of us first worlders would understand the reason for them to do it.

    I have better things to get wound up about then this lot.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    And if anyone actually thinks this will change anything is delusional at best.
    If I was a dictator I'd love to have a few million of you as my citizens. Easy, compliant pickings.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Yet, that's exactly what they've done and are doing with Armstrong. The case wasn't just about him, even though he's hogging all the media headlines as one might expect. The charging document was for five people in total - Armstrong, three team doctors, and one very notable team director (Johan Bruyneel). At the time of the charges, Armstrong was still actively competing in triathlon events that were under USADA's anti-doping portfolio, and the rest were still actively involved with teams and riders in professional cycling. In addition, several other riders on the witness list have now been sanctioned also, several of whom gave testimony about how they were partially complicit in having other riders start down the path of doping. They couldn't tackle any of this machine without going after Armstrong at the same time. They couldn't allow Armstrong to beat the rap, because then it disproves the case against the rest.

    After reviewing the above tell me again how charging and sanctioning Armstrong isn't about today and the future.
    While I understand your point, I still insist that the attempt to strip Lance of all titles is more vengeful than helpful. It is ok to put sanctions moving forward, it is ok to prosecute a few guilty parties, but the obsession with Lance is obvious, especially when his "friends" get a 6 month slap in exchange of evidence.

    In reality, today's athletes who are drug free, care about today and the future. They want to see testing and swift action that they can benefit from. I cannot see anyone directly benefiting from striping Lance. Who benefits from this?
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious View Post
    While I understand your point, I still insist that the attempt to strip Lance of all titles is more vengeful than helpful. It is ok to put sanctions moving forward, it is ok to prosecute a few guilty parties, but the obsession with Lance is obvious, especially when his "friends" get a 6 month slap in exchange of evidence.

    In reality, today's athletes who are drug free, care about today and the future. They want to see testing and swift action that they can benefit from. I cannot see anyone directly benefiting from striping Lance. Who benefits from this?
    I don't understand why you are questioning them stripping him off his titles. All other cheaters were stripped too. Why not him.

    Also - he was a prick and a bully. Simeoni eventually quit cycling because Lance screwed him out of the sport. No one could stand up to Lance

    So when USADA did, many were happy to help.

    Being a prick eventually comes back to bite you in the rear end. Couldn't have been more deserved.

    No one else doesn't have to get these titles. But he shouldn't keep them either. Other cheaters didn't keep theirs.

    So are you saying that despite his colossal cheating and fraud he should have kept his titles and USADA should not have prosecuted him because it was happening in the past?

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious View Post
    While I understand your point, I still insist that the attempt to strip Lance of all titles is more vengeful than helpful. It is ok to put sanctions moving forward, it is ok to prosecute a few guilty parties, but the obsession with Lance is obvious, especially when his "friends" get a 6 month slap in exchange of evidence.

    In reality, today's athletes who are drug free, care about today and the future. They want to see testing and swift action that they can benefit from. I cannot see anyone directly benefiting from striping Lance. Who benefits from this?
    If all the testimony and evidence are to be believed, I totally support the action USADA is taking given the mind-blowing breadth and depth of the deceit. This was all tightly orchestrated to achieve what it did and I think the penalty is appropriate.
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  20. #45
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    It has been an interesting week.

    I'm not at all surprised by the content of any of the confessions and allegations of PED use.

    I am astonished, however, that the confessions and allegations are being made.

    Now, I wonder if anyone else has anything they'd like to tell us.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocruiser View Post
    It has been an interesting week.

    I'm not at all surprised by the content of any of the confessions and allegations of PED use.

    I am astonished, however, that the confessions and allegations are being made.

    Now, I wonder if anyone else has anything they'd like to tell us.
    It does make you wonder exactly how USADA got so many of those affidavits. For people like Landis and Hamilton, they were probably just tired of being singled out for something they knew so many other people were up to. For others with way more to lose (Hincapie, et. al.), it's not so clear.

    In my mind, I imagine USADA going on a big fishing expedition. "We can do this the easy way or the hard way. We have evidence (we're not saying what, exactly) and you can come clean with us and work out a deal or you can try to hide. The choice is yours..."
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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious View Post
    While I understand your point, I still insist that the attempt to strip Lance of all titles is more vengeful than helpful. It is ok to put sanctions moving forward, it is ok to prosecute a few guilty parties, but the obsession with Lance is obvious, especially when his "friends" get a 6 month slap in exchange of evidence.

    In reality, today's athletes who are drug free, care about today and the future. They want to see testing and swift action that they can benefit from. I cannot see anyone directly benefiting from striping Lance. Who benefits from this?
    Anti-doping programs are a deterrent. How can can the deterrent have any teeth if the message is that if you lie enough, and amass enough wealth in doing do that you have huge commercial and legal resources behind you to quash any messages to the contrary, that you will be allowed to live out your days with your results and titles intact?

    The facts are contrary to your statement above about Armstrong being singled out. Several of the other parties (the aforementioned team doctors, probably team manager Johan Bruyneel also soon) originally charged by USADA also received lifetime bans. They did not cooperate, and tried to maintain the deception. The riders who received reduced sanctions cooperated and - from what can been be seen of the tightly corroborating testimony and related evidence - told the truth. The difference in the actions of these two groups clearly explains the difference in the weight of sanctions applied.

    Not to mention that the scope of Armstrong's violations were much more serious than the other riders, which is why the sanction was proposed to be heavier for him. Armstrong was also offered the opportunity to come clean for a much reduced sanction. He declined.

    He was near the centre of a huge doping network. For an anti doping agency like USADA to take Armstrong down, that's not an obsession, that's just doing their job according to their mandate.

  23. #48
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    When I'm old and beat, I'll definitely try blood doping.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    If I was a dictator I'd love to have a few million of you as my citizens. Easy, compliant pickings.
    Compliant? According to the City of Toronto nope not at all.

    I'm not holding my breath that things will have actually changed 10 years from now. As they say I'll believe it when I see it. Because it will be more like in the sprint events in Athletics in 2-4 years it will be back to business as usual.

    No I'm not happy with this media/internet war these guys are waging as it now has nothing to do with getting to the truth. That's really what it's become. But I'm also smart enough to know that me getting upset and sharpening my pitch fork for some kind of hunt for Wiccans is more an exercise in making me feel good.

    If this happened in 1990 everyone would have been upset and moved on. Read more when books came out about it thought about what they read and reached their own conclusions. Now days it's become a never ending manure tornado thanks to the internet. There is no time out from this constant stream of information and the judgements of public opinion.. So what we have now is some believing Lance is okay while others want to see it all burn down. Of course you have people from either faction who not only believe what they believe but feel the burning desire to turn others to their view and will do so by any means necessary. Gee... sounds like the last Federal election doesn't it?

    First world problem is all this really is.


    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    Also - he was a prick and a bully. Simeoni eventually quit cycling because Lance screwed him out of the sport. No one could stand up to Lance
    These days athletes bullying others is pretty much the norm now days. Look what happened at Rowing Canada and the Victoria rowing centre.

    Canadian rowing coach Mike Spracklen sunk by friendly fire: Feschuk - thestar.com


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  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Compliant? According to the City of Toronto nope not at all.

    I'm not holding my breath that things will have actually changed 10 years from now. As they say I'll believe it when I see it. Because it will be more like in the sprint events in Athletics in 2-4 years it will be back to business as usual.
    really? how do you know? it could go either way.

    why this is important is to show that no one is invincible if they decide to cheat - and that is good... this cheating network was so sophisticated - that it managed to survive for years and years - so taking it down - is a big success.

    No I'm not happy with this media/internet war these guys are waging as it now has nothing to do with getting to the truth. That's really what it's become. But I'm also smart enough to know that me getting upset and sharpening my pitch fork for some kind of hunt for Wiccans is more an exercise in making me feel good.
    i am glad you know you are smart. that is also a good reason to feel good. your statements about media/internet war - are confusing and contradictory with previous statement. What media war? publishing the facts is the best way to find the truth. i am sure more evidence will surface soon enough, like this is not enough. i strongly believe that most cyclists DO NOT WANT TO DOPE. but they had to if they wanted to succeed and put food on their family dining tables. sad but true... maybe this will lead to more Wiggins' type of cyclists... CLEAN...

    or maybe only until he gets caught too... we'll see...


    If this happened in 1990 everyone would have been upset and moved on. Read more when books came out about it thought about what they read and reached their own conclusions. Now days it's become a never ending manure tornado thanks to the internet. There is no time out from this constant stream of information and the judgements of public opinion.. So what we have now is some believing Lance is okay while others want to see it all burn down.
    i don't think anyone believes Lance is ok any more. there are just those that may try to justify it saying: "well everyone else was doped too" and similar statements... you don't need to be Einstein to figure the extent of his guilt...

    Of course you have people from either faction who not only believe what they believe but feel the burning desire to turn others to their view and will do so by any means necessary. Gee... sounds like the last Federal election doesn't it?

    First world problem is all this really is.
    you may believe what you want and i will not feel any better or worse if you don't or do believe what i do. this is completely irrelevant. the purpose of these boards is to discuss and debate issues, not to arm-wrestle anyone into the unified belief group (ubg).




    These days athletes bullying others is pretty much the norm now days. Look what happened at Rowing Canada and the Victoria rowing centre.

    Canadian rowing coach Mike Spracklen sunk by friendly fire: Feschuk - thestar.com


    .
    to bully someone out of the sport that he loved (simeoni) is not the same as to sink someone during a training... Lance behaved like he was the untouchable. usually little dogs enjoy a lot - seeing those fail. hard. nothing new.

    why are you so negative about this new development? relax bro. this is good. really. way better than i expected. it will not CLEAN UP the sport. but it will make it CLEANER.

    cleaner is better. it shortens the way to the goal. if you strive for perfection, you will have a higher probability of reaching excellence... oops, now i am pushing your mental activity too high... need to slow down...

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