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  1. #1
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    Simcoe County Mountain Bike Club

    SCMBC

    https://www.facebook.com/SCmtnbikeclub

    This club was formed to protect recreational mountain bike trails in Simcoe County.

    Support Register RIDE!

  2. #2
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    Very cool!
    Thanks for posting this. I did hear through the grape vine that there was a group in the works.
    Great to have a face to the trails out there now!
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    It is true. Great group of people with like minds. Huge local support with over 100 paid members and 6 corporate sponsors. We must be doing something right!

    Our agreement with the County includes building new trail on their land. One loop finished and more to come.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satan2 View Post
    SCMBC

    https://www.facebook.com/SCmtnbikeclub

    This club was formed to protect recreational mountain bike trails in Simcoe County.

    Support Register RIDE!
    Thank you for posting the link Satan...

    I finally met Tom in person today at Hardwood Hills. It was long time coming and unexpected, but I was too happy to finally replace keyboard and laptop screen with a live spoken word. We first shed a tear for good old Eastern Canada forum that ain't no more.

    Then naturally the discussion went towards trail building and maintenance. Tom suggested that I check Simcoe County tent at Hardwood Hills Epic 8 hours... I couldn't find them - but I found this post.

    Simcoe County has some real gem trail systems - and we finally have a group of people who are willing to protect existing and build new trails. As I can not find much extra time to help build or maintain - I can at least join the club and show support.

    Let's see if we can increase the membership numbers this way - these $40 are making me feel better as I have been mostly using trails, without real involvement in building them. C'mon folks - those of us who can not donate time, we can help a bit this way.

    Oggie
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  5. #5
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    Every time I try to access the Maps link I get sent to singletracks.com??????
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  6. #6
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    Thanks Oggie. Please search for our closed group on FB and ask to join. It is for members only and is our primary method of communicating with the membership.

    We have signed an agreement with Simcoe County to use their land. A condition of the land use agreement is that we provide them with 3rd party liability insurance. We are also working with other private land owners to allow us access to their property. We will have to provide the same type of insurance. That costs money which is the reason we are charging a small fee for membership. Half of the fees are going to insurance and admin. The other half is going into the trails. We have purchased power and hand tools to ensure the trails are buff.

    If we posted maps on our public website, some people may feel that it is not necessary to join. Membership must have privileges. Members have access to maps.

    I'm sorry if this offends some. It is not meant to do that. (Just speaking from past experience)

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikin' Bric View Post
    Every time I try to access the Maps link I get sent to singletracks.com??????
    This might help you. It's public info from the county

    Maps - Simcoe County Trails
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  8. #8
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    Thanks Cycleicious

    Our maps are not there and Simcoe County Trails is not the County. They are a group of people that try to represent trails user groups throughout Simcoe County.

    I'm not sure what your intention was of posting that link but it gives me the impression that you do not see value in mountain bike groups getting organized to protect recreational riding. We do understand that some people will feel that way, however others do not.

    We have discussed here for many years the lands that are being taken away due to the lack of mountain bikers getting organized and looking after the land on which they ride. SCMBC has done it. Yes, we primarily use land owned by Simcoe County. SC welcomes cycling on their property. In fact it was listed as one of the activities in their 2007 Recreational Policy. However, SC thought that bike riding was done on double lane fire road in their forests. They were not aware that mountain bikers ride single track that they may or may not have obstacles that could be inherently dangerous to ride. So, SC wanted mountain bikers to get organized. They have since 2008. Since no one did that in 2008 they have threatened to take away mountain biking on their lands. They certainly did nothing to protect the trail systems that were put there illegally.

    Well, now that we are organized SC has stepped up and are willing to protect mtb trails. They have already threatened enforcement action on other forest users that cause damage to mtb trails. They have assisted us in opening trails after storm damage and call us when there are any trail issues. The biggest part is that they have allowed and will continue to allow us to build new trails because we got organized. All they really ask is that we protect them from 3 party liability issues (Leone) by having insurance for them. That costs money. As stated above, that is why we charge a minimal fee for membership. Are those fees collected at other mtb areas? The answer is YES! Every gated centre has fees. Most of those are extremely higher than what SCMBC is asking. Most of those centres have half the trails that SCMBC is looking after and we are still building. How many other areas near the GTA are building new legal trail?

    We are also putting trail on private property. A condition of the land use for those properties it that membership is required or people will be trespassing. The more people that use the trail illegally, the higher the likelihood of us losing it.

    We are trying our best to protect the sport that we love. None of us are getting paid from the minimal club membership fees. All of us have full time jobs, families and other life commitments.

    We do want to build our membership as it will show the County and other user groups that we are a strong voice and a user group that is not going away. We understand that some people will never see the value in what we are doing, but we do ask that people respect our trail system and help us keep it alive and well for generations to come. Publicly posting maps of our system is not the way to keep it protected.

    Ian

  9. #9
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    Thanks for the correction

    Here is a better link?

    Trails Strategy | Planning | County of Simcoe

    And Simcoe County Trail Strategy draft here:

    http://www.simcoe.ca/ws_cos/groups/p...cos_009212.pdf

    It's good that you are advocating for trails. I understand charging fees and controlling maps to access private land. But I don't see the value of putting these obstacles for public trail use on public land in the community.

    There are actually a lot of new trails being developed in the GTA, one example posted in the EC forum is the Nashville Tract as well as other projects. All of these projects are non-fee based and will have publically posted maps for the community.

    Secrecy and fees leave a bad taste for many especially when the community is greater and more diverse than just 100 people.

    Perhaps to help clarify things could you share what type of trails are you advocating for and building?
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclelicious View Post
    This might help you. It's public info from the county

    Maps - Simcoe County Trails
    Simcoe county trails is a renamed Huronia trails and Greenways, the folks who did a lot of work on rail trails, I was told their first moto was "rails to trails" there singletrack map offerings are somewhat limited.

    I kinda look at it this way, membership is 40 bucks, you get maps and trails that are getting marked out in a navigable manner, about 40-45 km of singletrack now id guess, and growing, its a pretty good deal.

    since April 1st its pretty amazing what this club has done,

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclelicious View Post
    Thanks for the correction

    Here is a better link?

    Trails Strategy | Planning | County of Simcoe



    And Simcoe County Trail Strategy draft here:

    http://www.simcoe.ca/ws_cos/groups/p...cos_009212.pdf

    It's good that you are advocating for trails. I understand charging fees and controlling maps to access private land. But I don't see the value of putting these obstacles for public trail use on public land in the community.

    There are actually a lot of new trails being developed in the GTA, one example posted in the EC forum is the Nashville Tract as well as other projects. All of these projects are non-fee based and will have publically posted maps for the community.

    Secrecy and fees leave a bad taste for many especially when the community is greater and more diverse than just 100 people.

    Perhaps to help clarify things could you share what type of trails are you advocating for and building?
    it is not about secrecy and fees Judy

    both secrecy and fees are simply explained - the land owner MANDATED a third party insurance or NO TRAILS. NO MTB. They did not give any options. Comply or get outta here.

    in order to have a third party insurance - fees have to be charged. i find $40 acceptable, even though i will be heading up north to ride these trails maybe 4-5 times per year. i don't look at $40 in this way, but a bit differently.

    local builders are passionate about the sport and about the trails they build. they were not given the carte blanche like the group that is developing the Nashville Tract, for example (although i admittedly don't know all the details). in order to preserve all the work that has been done in SC and build more legally - i will pay $40 in a heartbeat as it means more people riding and SC is a particularly sweet area for riding.

    secrecy is also not my concern - and i was pretty vocal AGAINST it during our last heated discussion on Copeland Forest a while back, if you remember.

    secrecy here is not to exclude riders from riding the trails, but to exclude trespassing which can cost us the whole system, as explained by Ian.

    if the system was built on public land and the crown was fine with it, i'd have an issue with secrecy. now that i know the information - i understand the concern about illegal trail usage in SC that can cost EVERYONE

    if Nashville Tract project required same help - i would have gotten the membership in a heartbeat as well. i don't care "what kind of trails" are included in the Nashville Tract or SC. As long as they are MTB trails.

    by the way - are you guys getting fat bikes or do you already have them?
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclelicious View Post
    Thanks for the correction

    Here is a better link?

    Trails Strategy | Planning | County of Simcoe

    And Simcoe County Trail Strategy draft here:

    http://www.simcoe.ca/ws_cos/groups/p...cos_009212.pdf

    It's good that you are advocating for trails. I understand charging fees and controlling maps to access private land. But I don't see the value of putting these obstacles for public trail use on public land in the community.

    There are actually a lot of new trails being developed in the GTA, one example posted in the EC forum is the Nashville Tract as well as other projects. All of these projects are non-fee based and will have publically posted maps for the community.

    Secrecy and fees leave a bad taste for many especially when the community is greater and more diverse than just 100 people.

    Perhaps to help clarify things could you share what type of trails are you advocating for and building?
    its not about secrecy, its about a member siting down at a desk and drawing a map creating a PDF and that being accessible by the membership. The club needs cash to function and to Insure the trails, getting a map as a benefit is a nice touch.

    this sounds cheeky but I'm just being honest, there's nothing stopping anyone else from doing the same, be it another club in the area (there are many), the county, the township, or Simcoe County Trails.

    I'm the last guy who wants trails to be kept secret, offering a map made by members for members isn't secretive,

    Road clubs post maps and routes for their members as a benefit to being a member, this isn't any different.

    Clubs are what they sound like "a club" they're run by their members for their members, snowmobile clubs, gun clubs, tennis clubs, golf clubs etc.

  13. #13
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    Touchy subject, eh? I guess we have Mr Leone to thank for that. I can appreciate that money to pay for third party liability insurance has to come from somewhere and that at present it comes from club members. I would really like it if as a club you could find a way to offer limited access to the trails, perhaps in the form of a day pass available at local bike stores? It would give those of us from outside the area an opportunity to contribute in a small way. I realize that it may not be possible logistically right now as you are a young club but please keep it in mind as an option.
    I have a lot of friends in your area and don't get up there nearly enough especially considering the amazing riding that is there.
    Cheers, Dave

  14. #14
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    Sounds like you Simcoe County folks have taken a page from the OFTR / SCORRA. I understand your point about the trails on private land but what about the county forests? Your website names Strachan, Johnson, Arbour, Crawford, Tustin, Amos, Schumacher in particular. Are these trails for "members only"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikin' Bric View Post
    Sounds like you Simcoe County folks have taken a page from the OFTR / SCORRA. I understand your point about the trails on private land but what about the county forests? Your website names Strachan, Johnson, Arbour, Crawford, Tustin, Amos, Schumacher in particular. Are these trails for "members only"?
    open to anyone to ride, explore and enjoy (minus motorized vehicles)

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by swabag View Post
    open to anyone to ride, explore and enjoy (minus motorized vehicles)
    But you wont give access to maps of these areas?
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    Yes the trails are open to anyone to ride. Yes we have taken a page from SCORRA. I have very close ties to them as the past president. SCORRA did not post maps to non-members either, yet over 800 people saw the value in membership and trail stewardship through SCORRA. I will agree that there was a requirement for dirt bikes to be members of a club in order to use SC forests. That is the challenge for us. How do we keep an agreement with the county without membership and the ability to pay for insurance ? We can't do it for free. The trails will close. I guess that's the other option.

    We hope that the people who use the trails as non-members will see the value in membership and want to sign up. The trails are maintained by volunteers. That is unlike some other mountain bike areas that provide maps of their trails.

  18. #18
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    Re: Simcoe County Mountain Bike Club

    Quote Originally Posted by Satan2 View Post
    Yes the trails are open to anyone to ride. Yes we have taken a page from SCORRA. I have very close ties to them as the past president. SCORRA did not post maps to non-members either, yet over 800 people saw the value in membership and trail stewardship through SCORRA. I will agree that there was a requirement for dirt bikes to be members of a club in order to use SC forests. That is the challenge for us. How do we keep an agreement with the county without membership and the ability to pay for insurance ? We can't do it for free. The trails will close. I guess that's the other option.

    We hope that the people who use the trails as non-members will see the value in membership and want to sign up. The trails are maintained by volunteers. That is unlike some other mountain bike areas that provide maps of their trails.
    I use to ride the SCORRA trails and was and OFTR member for a number of years. I always found the Simcoe County forests to have a beautiful landscape and often thought about bringing my MTB up there. I see the value of membership and would likely join even though I live over 2 hours away. Problem is that I would not make the drive to try out some of the trails without having some sort of information on them, whether it be maps, gps tracks, directions to trailheads and general descriptions of the trails. If I don't make it up to try out the trails I never join and become a member..... you see where I'm going with this?

    There are many places built and maintained my local clubs in Ontario who also have the same problems/expenses yet still make information on their trail system available in hopes that the people who ride there will also realize the work and costs involved in maintaining a trail system and will join up. Take a look at WCC, TPMBC, GORBA, etc.

    Just my $0.02 take what you will (or won't) from it but I think you would have more prospective members if they were actually riding the trails.
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    I understand your dilemma. I'm not really sure what the answer is.

    I ride Buckwallow once or twice a year but the first time I go, I purchase a season family pass. Last year my one and only ride cost me $120, but I did get a map. I do this because I see the value in the trail system that is meticulously maintained and I love the beautiful landscape of the trails. It also supports a small business associated to the sport that I truly care about. They have the money to pay people to maintain the trails, cover the taxes and insurance and still make enough money to keep the business open for us mountain bikers.

    SCMBC is not a business. We are a not-for-profit organization. No one gets paid to maintain the trails. No one gets paid to administer the club business, sort out the memberships. get insurance, do the banking, go to County meetings etc, etc. Everyone is doing it on a volunteer basis. I know that several of us have asked why we do this. It does make it difficult when we try to promote the club and get the life sucked out of us by trying to defend why someone needs to pay $40. Its not just here. I ran into a guy who has ridden the trails in SC for 10 years and says "why do I have to pay now"?

    We do this because we love the trails and have used this land for free for the last 10-15 years. I would like the same opportunity for my kids to have when they are my age.

    If you do not see the value of $40 being invested in SC single track, don't join the club. But no, we are not going to publicly post maps our the system we built and maintain so people can avoid joining the club.

  20. #20
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    for years folks in here screamed that the riders in this area should make an effort to open up, get organized and welcome visitors. They did! Very nice job to the Board and crew at SCMBC

    You might expect this accomplishment would be met with joy and support from the MTB community (Thanks Oggie for being very supportive!!)

    The process of going legit and getting organized to welcome others comes with a cost, primarily in the form of group insurance. Now the regulars are also expected to shoulder the financial burden of insuring a bunch of trail for the privilege of building and maintaining AND mapping it all and welcoming others with the hope that they like it and just maybe support the cause with a weeks worth of latte money.

    heh heh, I get carried away but personally this discussion brings out my ogre like tendencies (they are not far from the surface anyways ).... save your $40 and stay away!

    Thanks Satan2 and others. I am thankful for your efforts and was glad to contribute to the effort.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satan2 View Post
    It does make it difficult when we try to promote the club and get the life sucked out of us by trying to defend why someone needs to pay $40. Its not just here. I ran into a guy who has ridden the trails in SC for 10 years and says "why do I have to pay now"?

    We do this because we love the trails and have used this land for free for the last 10-15 years. I would like the same opportunity for my kids to have when they are my age.

    If you do not see the value of $40 being invested in SC single track, don't join the club. But no, we are not going to publicly post maps our the system we built and maintain so people can avoid joining the club.
    We get the same thing at Hamilton Cycling Club - people just don't see the value of joining the club, despite all the work we do creating new trails. Honestly - even some of our trail builders haven't joined the club, which I find a little irritating. But I'm not going to nag people into joining - just not worth it.

    Now that you're an official club, I'd advocate applying for a Trillium grant (MEC has some good grants too) for trail building supplies, signage etc. We got one, and SHCC did too ($15K max).

    Not sure I totally agree with you about the map strategy, but that's certainly your call. Perhaps you could take the approach of selling hard copy maps locally as a fundraiser? It's a tough thing - people ride all over the province, but only want to join one club (if that). HCC has Associate memberships ($5) to help deal with that.

    Good luck with your club!

  22. #22
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    Simcoe County Mountain Bike Club

    My girlfriend and I signed up last night to both the SCMBC and the TPMBC.

    A year ago we bought bikes and we have been exploring different regions in southern Ontario. Being new to the sport we were not familiar with the idea of joining a club. Now that we have had a chance to experience how much fun it is to ride a purpose built single track MTB trail, we are happy to participate by financially supporting the clubs within a 2 hour drive from home.

    We are grateful to the trail builders who have given us (many) places to enjoy.

    Thank you!

  23. #23
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    Re: Simcoe County Mountain Bike Club

    Don't think that I do not support riders getting organized and getting land use agreements etc because I do. I think its great that there is a club now in the Simcoe County area to represent mountain bikers, especially with the abundance of county forests up there.

    I'm just saying that people want to see what they are getting for their financial support. If you don't want to share information thats fine but it can put off potential members from joining because they do not understand what they are getting for it. I only used myself as an example. If I was in the area enough to ride there more than once a year I would join in a heartbeat. No need for people to get defensive over someones opinion, because its just that. I'm also sorry if I came across as a stick in the mud , so to speak.

    I am a member of a club that has all the same expenses as yours and everything is done by volunteers, yet all the information about the trails (including maps) is available to Joe Public. The club has a very good rate of growth because people from different areas are joining up after seeing what we have to offer. Sure, there are the types who will never join or help out and will ride the trails all the time. It is inevitable and you just have to deal with it and accept the fact that not everyone who bikes wants to join a club.

    The other problem you face is whats to keep someone from joining your club then plastering the maps all over the net anyways? Its very hard to control this type of data, especially within the internet.

    Either way I'm glad that a new club has been formed and hope that you can prosper in the beautiful area that is Simcoe County. If you are ever in the Norfolk area I'd love to give you the tour and show you what we have to offer.
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  24. #24
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    Satan2.... Props for organizing the club and building/maintaining the trails.

    Seems to me that you have a bit of a marketing challenge. You want to encourage new membership, but don't want to show the goods so to speak (to prevent tresspassing). If I ride these trails (without a membership) who would I be tresspassing on, the landowners or your club?

    Do you have the exclusive right to use this land or simply the right to build the trails (as long as you can provide insurance)? I'm not trying to be critical, but simply better understand in order to offer more focussed input.

    Your principal argument for providing maps only to club members is that you need to raise money to cover the insurance as required by the land owners. If your club has the exclusive rights to build and use the trails then the club has every right to do what it wants to limit riders. However, this may also limit your membership and fundraising capabilities. On the other hand you might end up with a more exclusive club of "well heeled" members. This too is totally cool if that's where you want to go.

    On the other hand if you want a larger more community focussed membership, you would draw more interest if people could see what they are getting. You could also promote your club and the trails with events. This could also attract more volunteers.

    If the key issue is the cost of insurance, what type of figure are you talking about. Perhaps there is another way to come up with the funds (i.e., auction, print maps with advertising, etc.). Others MTBR members may be more able and willing to assist you with this. Just something to consider.

    I don't live in the area, but do try to ride different venues throughout the year.

    Best of luck.

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  25. #25
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    You're complaining about $40...
    How much is a day pass @ HardWood or BuckWallow?
    What do you pay per day to go skiing @ HorseShoe or Mt.St.Louis?
    What's the entry fee for a race?

    This is a completey reasonable membership fee...
    If ya have enuff $$ to throw down for a Cannondale or Titus don"t tell me $40 is too much.

    Grant

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    We get the same thing at Hamilton Cycling Club - people just don't see the value of joining the club, despite all the work we do creating new trails. Honestly - even some of our trail builders haven't joined the club, which I find a little irritating. But I'm not going to nag people into joining - just not worth it.
    It does end up being somewhat of a paradox since the people least likely to need a map are the builders and club members.

    We got our map done to help visitors with wayfinding - I certainly don't need one!

    That being said, best of luck with the Simcoe club. It seems like an idea that was way overdue up there.
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schwing View Post
    You're complaining about $40...
    How much is a day pass @ HardWood or BuckWallow?
    What do you pay per day to go skiing @ HorseShoe or Mt.St.Louis?
    What's the entry fee for a race?

    This is a completey reasonable membership fee...
    If ya have enuff $$ to throw down for a Cannondale or Titus don"t tell me $40 is too much.

    Grant
    yeah, well said...

    i find this discussion about $40 insulting, and i have not shed any sweat building the said trails... most of us throw thousands of dollars on bikes, accessories and one day passes at many private or provincial parks... even the cheapest one day race fee is higher than $40 most of which would go to trail building and not for anyone's profit, unlike every other expense associated with bike riding.

    seriously, have some respect for trail builders. if $40 is too much - no worries... but please do not try to justify or explain why you deem it too much... just give them some respect, it is free....

    i don't need to see 45km of sweet single track that will cost me $40 to feel good for supporting those who built them. geez...

    i was hoping for this thread to be way more positive and supportive...

    where is Trail Ninja when i need him...
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    Quote Originally Posted by swabag View Post
    its not about secrecy, its about a member siting down at a desk and drawing a map creating a PDF and that being accessible by the membership. The club needs cash to function and to Insure the trails, getting a map as a benefit is a nice touch.

    this sounds cheeky but I'm just being honest, there's nothing stopping anyone else from doing the same, be it another club in the area (there are many), the county, the township, or Simcoe County Trails.

    I'm the last guy who wants trails to be kept secret, offering a map made by members for members isn't secretive,

    Road clubs post maps and routes for their members as a benefit to being a member, this isn't any different.

    Clubs are what they sound like "a club" they're run by their members for their members, snowmobile clubs, gun clubs, tennis clubs, golf clubs etc.
    Since it seems a couple of important points in this whole keeping the trails secret nonsense.

    If anyone who posted actually read the original post and paid attention would have noticed two important points,

    - trails on public lands

    - trails on private land

    Now let us focus on the whole private land trails. Reality is most here ride on public open trails or public trails with user fee. These all have daily accessible maps and such as anyone here normally expects.

    But when it comes to trails on private land...expect no publicly accessible trail maps. Simple reason, as I mentioned in the Marathon thread. It is a privilege that we are allowed to build trails on other people's Private land/property. And thanks to people like Rob Sangers and others like him who through years of effort have built up the trust of these land owners to allow mountain bike access.

    This is a privilege.

    And these privileges can be revoked on the whim of the property owners. So, this requires insurance from say IMBA to cover the clubs butt. And in the case here in Kingston you get a member card you attach to your bike so we all know those we see riding the trails are allowed to be there. All it can take is a couple of Touron's acting like clowns on private land and suddenly the owners tell us that's it. So protect to this relationship it is only wise to keep maps on a member only access list. And if you are not a member you show up for a race or ride with a club member.

    Keep in mind trails on private land are a privilege.

    Best of luck to the Simcoe crew.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post

    where is Trail Ninja when i need him...
    Somewhere between Bowser and Buckley Bay..BC.

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    Re: Simcoe County Mountain Bike Club

    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    yeah, well said...

    i find this discussion about $40 insulting, and i have not shed any sweat building the said trails... most of us throw thousands of dollars on bikes, accessories and one day passes at many private or provincial parks... even the cheapest one day race fee is higher than $40 most of which would go to trail building and not for anyone's profit, unlike every other expense associated with bike riding.

    seriously, have some respect for trail builders. if $40 is too much - no worries... but please do not try to justify or explain why you deem it too much... just give them some respect, it is free....

    i don't need to see 45km of sweet single track that will cost me $40 to feel good for supporting those who built them. geez...

    i was hoping for this thread to be way more positive and supportive...

    where is Trail Ninja when i need him...
    Whos complaing that $40 is too much? Ill I've seen is a bit of constructive critisism to help out the membership.

    Its not a discussion about the $40 cost, its about attracting more members. In the end I'm sure the club will be successful whether the information is there or not. Some people will not see the benefits of membership unless they see what they are getting first. You wouldn't buy a car without a test drive.

    I'm not one of those people, I'm just pointing out that they exist. No reason for all the butthurt over my opinion. Like I said, I'd join in a heartbeat if I had the time to ride up there.
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikin' Bric View Post
    Whos complaing that $40 is too much? Ill I've seen is a bit of constructive critisism to help out the membership.

    Its not a discussion about the $40 cost, its about attracting more members. In the end I'm sure the club will be successful whether the information is there or not. Some people will not see the benefits of membership unless they see what they are getting first. You wouldn't buy a car without a test drive.

    I'm not one of those people, I'm just pointing out that they exist. No reason for all the butthurt over my opinion. Like I said, I'd join in a heartbeat if I had the time to ride up there.
    i joined in a hearbeat even though i don't know if i will have time to go up there...

    i am not concerned about getting value out of my $40, as you are probably not concerned to get value out of a liter of gasoline at $1.30 - you just buy it, no?

    my $40 went to a hardworking group of people who did not ask for $40 bucks for the past 15 years that they have been building their trails... i did ride them 3-4 times in the past 2-3 years.

    well worth $40

    are you talking about my butthurt or your butthurt?

    it ain't mine, i feel great.
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  32. #32
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    Just to clarify my previous post:

    Are these trails on private land similar to the model used by CCC (Caledon Cycling Club) and which makes sense charging membership fees, or are these trails on public land like the trails in the Don?

    What kind of mtb trails are being developed eg. xc trails/ flow trails/ interregional trails/ rail trails/ skill trails etc?

    I'm merely asking this question because some people like to know if a trail network matches their riding style.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    i joined in a hearbeat even though i don't know if i will have time to go up there...

    i am not concerned about getting value out of my $40, as you are probably not concerned to get value out of a liter of gasoline at $1.30 - you just buy it, no?

    my $40 went to a hardworking group of people who did not ask for $40 bucks for the past 15 years that they have been building their trails... i did ride them 3-4 times in the past 2-3 years.

    well worth $40

    are you talking about my butthurt or your butthurt?

    it ain't mine, i feel great.
    Oggie…. I don’t think that the issue is the $40.00 for a club membership. It’s more than fair value and I applaud the efforts of those maintaining and building the trails.

    What I’m trying to get my head around is what the focus of the club is. Are their efforts focused on building and maintaining trail systems for local riders only, or also in attracting riders from outside the local area? The first is protectionist and the later inclusive. I'm not suggesting that one is better than the other, just different.

    SCMBC site states: “This club was established to protect and build mountain bike trails for mountain bikers in Simcoe County.”

    Satan2 states: "We have discussed here for many years the lands that are being taken away due to the lack of mountain bikers getting organized and looking after the land on which they ride. SCMBC has done it. Yes, we primarily use land owned by Simcoe County. SC welcomes cycling on their property. In fact it was listed as one of the activities in their 2007 Recreational Policy. However, SC thought that bike riding was done on double lane fire road in their forests. They were not aware that mountain bikers ride single track that they may or may not have obstacles that could be inherently dangerous to ride. So, SC wanted mountain bikers to get organized. They have since 2008. Since no one did that in 2008 they have threatened to take away mountain biking on their lands. They certainly did nothing to protect the trail systems that were put there illegally.

    Well, now that we are organized SC has stepped up and are willing to protect mtb trails. They have already threatened enforcement action on other forest users that cause damage to mtb trails. They have assisted us in opening trails after storm damage and call us when there are any trail issues. The biggest part is that they have allowed and will continue to allow us to build new trails because we got organized. All they really ask is that we protect them from 3 party liability issues (Leone) by having insurance for them.

    ….We are trying our best to protect the sport that we love.

    ….We do want to build our membership as it will show the County and other user groups that we are a strong voice and a user group that is not going away.”


    I truly believe that the last two sentences reflect the intention and goals of those who formed SCMBC.

    While I’m not being critical of their membership drive focus, I’m wondering if there aren’t other complementary avenues that could be pursued to more effectively further their above stated goals.

    The first thing that comes to mind is, what will have the stronger voice with Simcoe County? A local club with 200 members who exclusively use the local trails or a local club with 200 members who are attracting 1,000 rider visits per year from outside the community (who will spend money in the community)? If you can show local business that you can bring them new customers, it will make a better business case for them to advertise with and support the club.

    There is some fantastic riding here in Southern Ontario, especially in the Simcoe County area and it seems to me that marketing local mtbr trail systems as travel destinations would not only benefit the local clubs but communities and businesses as well. There are numerous examples of mtbr destinations such as Fruita, Grand Junction, Moab, Whistler, Squamish, North Van, etc., where the local communities fully support mountain biking (both financially and politically). In most of these communities, volunteers, the local cycling clubs, and related businesses work together to build and maintain extensive trail systems.

    As someone who has ridden all of the above noted destinations (and more), I believe that the trail systems in the Barrie, Orillia, Oro, Gravenhurst area offer a unique experience that rivals other prominent mtbr destinations.

    History is rife with examples of how well intentioned protectionism by small groups has marginalized the very institutions that they were trying to protect. History has also shown us that the best way to protect an institution is to make it valuable to the masses. Therefore, I’d suggest that the best way to protect the mountain bike trails is to attract as many riders as possible and, therefore, make the trails valuable to diversified business interests within and without the community.

    Just my $0.02.

    i1dry?
    ...some drink from the fountain of knowledge..some only gargle...!!

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by i1dry View Post
    ...

    History is rife with examples of how well intentioned protectionism by small groups has marginalized the very institutions that they were trying to protect. History has also shown us that the best way to protect an institution is to make it valuable to the masses. Therefore, I’d suggest that the best way to protect the mountain bike trails is to attract as many riders as possible and, therefore, make the trails valuable to diversified business interests within and without the community.
    This is precisely the experiment being undertaken by Park Canada. We'll know in about 5-10 years how well it worked. In the meantime, if the Simcoe/Barrie trails are as good as I keep reading about, shouldn't matter what model the club chooses to pursue; there'll be enough support one way or the other regardless of these debates.

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    Anyone interested in a guided sample of the trails stewarded by the S.C.M.B.C. is in luck!!
    Sunday September 15 is the date, to coincide with the local TerryFox Run.
    More details and a new thread to follow.

    G

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    I would pay to ride these trails and like helping MTB clubs with funding, but joining a private facebook group and going through all these loopholes is way too much work for me seeing as I would only go up there 1-2 times a season maximum.

    You guys need an easier system.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by i1dry View Post

    History is rife with examples of how well intentioned protectionism by small groups has marginalized the very institutions that they were trying to protect. History has also shown us that the best way to protect an institution is to make it valuable to the masses. Therefore, I’d suggest that the best way to protect the mountain bike trails is to attract as many riders as possible and, therefore, make the trails valuable to diversified business interests within and without the community.

    Just my $0.02.

    i1dry?
    isn't that exactly what SMBC is doing? i am not local by any stretch of imagination. i was hoping to spark some interest by NON-LOCAL riders, so that SMBC grows into a regional club, not just local. we don't have to worry about local riders - most of them joined the club in a heartbeat.

    they also extended the invitation to all - it is up to us to accept it. now we have no one to blame for protectionism any more, as we (including me) did in the past.

    i suggest you step up to the plate and help these guys keep doing what they have been doing for a while. if it is not about $40 - what is then preventing you from joining the club?

    seriously?
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  38. #38
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    I agree with you that the $40.00 should not be an issue. However, one wants to make sure that the money is going to good use. You seem to know the people involved which makes all the difference. There are a lot of clubs out there that seem to be doing a lot of good work. I think the Halton Hill people are always busy and so are the Turkey Point folks and the Hamilton folks and various other groups I run into. That $40.00 can balloon pretty quickly if you support everyone. I like the pay as you ride idea best, though that is impossible in so many cases. I have no issues paying to ride at Kelso and Hilton Falls and think Buck a bargain at $10.00 a ride for what you get.

    I am perhaps one of the few people not on FB on the planet, but if I can get someone from the club to tell me where to send the money and then email me a set of maps, I would be glad to step up to the plate. I think that would be a fair proposition.
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    Quote Originally Posted by secret agent View Post
    I agree with you that the $40.00 should not be an issue. However, one wants to make sure that the money is going to good use. You seem to know the people involved which makes all the difference. There are a lot of clubs out there that seem to be doing a lot of good work. I think the Halton Hill people are always busy and so are the Turkey Point folks and the Hamilton folks and various other groups I run into. That $40.00 can balloon pretty quickly if you support everyone. I like the pay as you ride idea best, though that is impossible in so many cases. I have no issues paying to ride at Kelso and Hilton Falls and think Buck a bargain at $10.00 a ride for what you get.

    I am perhaps one of the few people not on FB on the planet, but if I can get someone from the club to tell me where to send the money and then email me a set of maps, I would be glad to step up to the plate. I think that would be a fair proposition.
    The difference between Simcoe County and some other areas is that Simcoe County put a condition to legally building trails in the area. They requested a third party insurance - and that is a game changer. You are right - multiple $40 could balloon out of ones budget pretty quickly.

    I met only one of the builders from the area - in person. But the emotion that these people have towards these trails and their past work (built trails) is more than enough assurance to me that my $40 is well spent.

    I will post a simple link where you should be able to register unless one of the board members beat me to it. Your rationale is fair and makes sense.

    Heck, I just burned $50 yesterday as my wife picked the wrong color for the hallway - stairwell at our place. $40 to support a trail system looks like even bigger bargain now.

    One GOOD thing about this membership (on top of the obvious ones) is it will MAKE you visit Simcoe County trails and I can guarantee you - you will go back.
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  40. #40
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    Check us out: SCMBC

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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schwing View Post
    Anyone interested in a guided sample of the trails stewarded by the S.C.M.B.C. is in luck!!
    Sunday September 15 is the date, to coincide with the local TerryFox Run.
    More details and a new thread to follow.

    G
    way to go! good stuff...
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  42. #42
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    Is there a meeting I can attend to learn a little more about your group?
    I live in the area , mtb er for 20 +yrs
    Willing to give up $40 and some time for trail maintenance in exchange for
    Good singletrack.
    Ride a Santa Cruz heckler
    And many part bikes : )
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    If you are a local mtb er, you will likely have ridden the trails and know how great they are. More have been built by our group this year and more are in the works right now. Our membership have stepped up with an adopt a trail program and the 50 km are pretty buff right now.

    SCMBC tells you about the club. There will be more there in the near future. We will be holding an annual general meeting but it will be for the membership and not the public.

    If you need more information to justify the measly $40 yearly membership/permit for your local trails, please feel free to send an email to info@scmbc.ca .

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satan2 View Post
    If you are a local mtb er, you will likely have ridden the trails and know how great they are. More have been built by our group this year and more are in the works right now. Our membership have stepped up with an adopt a trail program and the 50 km are pretty buff right now.

    SCMBC tells you about the club. There will be more there in the near future. We will be holding an annual general meeting but it will be for the membership and not the public.

    If you need more information to justify the measly $40 yearly membership/permit for your local trails, please feel free to send an email to info@scmbc.ca .
    Riding Simcoe County trails...

    this ride was an open invitation, probably a couple of years old, that could not have taken place at a better time. I had an open invitation by one of the trail builders at the time, now one of the SCMBC executive members - formerly known as Phat Tyred. He is still the same guy - passionate about riding and trail building. He is a doer, and his talk is straight to the point and brutally honest.

    Our ride was set for Thursday. Just that Thursday in October. Rain or shine. Little did we know that the mother nature decided to send some snow our way, but that did not stop us from spending about 3 hours on the trails in Simcoe County. It felt good to ride our trails. My trails too, as a member of SCMBC. Though I didn't blink at the insignificant $40 cost of the annual membership, way less than the cost of any one day race in Ontario, I was curious to see and ride the trails - with someone who actually built them.

    Only once in the past was I given a personal tour of the trails by the builder himself - at Santa's Village a few years ago. I felt privileged, as we enjoyed our MTB related conversation as much as we enjoyed the trails, covered with snow, slush, wet, cold and beautiful.

    This trail system is a God given gift for MTB EPIC RIDES. Those rides, that many of us forgot about, where one can go wondering through the trail system for hours, 5 hours... 6, 7 or more hours, without hitting the same trail twice, and with a strong sense of adventure. Our ride certainly did have a sense of adventure, as we were challenged by almost everything that the nature can throw at us during the ride. The terrain is fun and the trails were laid in very intelligent way, providing as much challenge as one wants to subject him/herself but at the same time still manageable for a wide group of riders with different skills and fitness levels.

    Breathtaking outlooks, attractive vegetation, friendly or relentless rolling hills, well drained trails - and much more. Huge diverse area with a little bit of everything... Sounds like a great deal for less than a half tank of gas membership fee.

    I did challenge my host about the fee - though I signed up sight unseen. I should not elaborate on the explanation - I will let the SCMBC handle it officially, but sufficient to say, members are getting a fantastic deal out of their membership. Including a third party insurance while riding exclusive MTB trails at SCMBC.

    My motives were a bit different. Honestly, I felt good supporting a few good people who are building great trails and are trying to unite MTB community in Simcoe County into a respectable and formidable group, whose voice will be heard together with other user groups. I truly believe that Simcoe County will become the Mecca for mountain biking in Ontario and hopefully even outside.

    I can't wait to go back to Simcoe County, maybe this winter with my fat bikes group but surely as soon as trails dry up after the winter, for some epic rides.

    In the meantime, I will be renewing my membership on November 1st 2013. Best spent $40 in a while...

    Some pics from the ride below. Mucho thanks to Phat Tyred. Beer was excellent too, brother. Look forward to our next ride. Hopefully Satan will be able to join as well.

    It's doable...
    Simcoe County Mountain Bike Club-img_1166.jpg

    Simcoe County Forest
    Simcoe County Mountain Bike Club-img_1167.jpg

    SCMBC built trails are well marked and easy to follow - usually a big loops - when possible...
    Simcoe County Mountain Bike Club-img_1168.jpg

    Great views...
    Simcoe County Mountain Bike Club-img_1169.jpg
    Simcoe County Mountain Bike Club-img_1177.jpg

    WATCH OUT
    Simcoe County Mountain Bike Club-img_1185.jpg

    OOPS
    Simcoe County Mountain Bike Club-img_1197.jpg

    Trails were ton of fun, even snow covered...
    Simcoe County Mountain Bike Club-img_1205.jpg

    mmmmkay... loved the maple syrup flavour...
    Simcoe County Mountain Bike Club-img_1206.jpg
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  45. #45
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    I'm so glad you and Phat finally met and made up. He was always a very passionate advocate for those trails.
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

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    I had to edit my post because I posted about a SCMBC discussion as though it were fact. I apologize

    The club is exploring opportunities to protect the trails and grow the network and club.

    I will let the club representatives make any announcements when there are announcements to make.
    Last edited by Bill Payer; 11-09-2013 at 04:22 PM. Reason: misinformation
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    Thanks Chris.

    Yes the club has had talks with the County/landowner over this topic. In keeping with the legitimacy of all other user groups, it is being considered at the County level.

    What it will also do is offer the protection of mountain bike trails under a legal agreement with conditions for years to come. It will hopefully assist with club and trail sustainability on County land and protect from the abuse of other users and groups.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satan2 View Post
    Thanks Chris.

    Yes the club has had talks with the County/landowner over this topic. In keeping with the legitimacy of all other user groups, it is being considered at the County level.

    What it will also do is offer the protection of mountain bike trails under a legal agreement with conditions for years to come. It will hopefully assist with club and trail sustainability on County land and protect from the abuse of other users and groups.

    so let me understand this correctly:

    based on my conversation with one of the SCMBC trail builders, i thought that the only way to legally build MTB trails on SC land is if those that were to use these trails legally were insured by the third party - so that the SC liability concerns are addressed properly.

    The easiest way for SC to deal with this is to have an entity that represents MTB community which will take care of addressing liability issues as well as take ownership of the trails on SC land. Check - hence SCMBC.

    In order for SCMBC to address liability issues - they have to engage the third party entity which will offer insurance to all club members. It ain't free to insure anything, including MTB riders. We were all witnesses to the law suit by a good lawyer but incompetent MTB rider who sued the government over his own mistake that got him hurt. Any entity will look to protect themselves against these kind of lawsuits - hence the third party insurance request by SC.

    The fee that SCMBC offered to all it's members includes the third party insurance - as mandated by the SC. SCMBC had nothing to do with this request. This request for third party insurance is a show stopper. If there is no third party insurance - there is no legal building of trails on SC land.

    Satan - please correct me if i am wrong here.

    Now - based on my info - the third party insurance accounts for almost 50% of the membership fee. The rest of the fee goes toward the purchase of trail building tools.

    At the end of the day - the need for the third party insurance, mandated by the land owner - the government - in order to LEGALLY build on their land - is something that was not under SCMBC control. The club has to provide this insurance for their members in order to meet governments requirement. And this must not be forgotten - unless my understanding is not accurate - again, Satan please correct me if i am wrong.

    SO now we are talking $40 for the membership fee, in order to meet the show stopping requirement by the government.

    Based on this requirement by the government, only insured riders can ride trails legally built by SCMBC. The only insurance offered right now is by SCMBC through their membership. And it is darn cheap if you ask me. I am disappointed that there are riders who question the fee and the fact that it is mandatory. I hope it is only because of lack of information and understanding. It is not SCMBC who is imposing the arbitrary for no reason on those who want to become members. The fee was mandated by government's request for third party insurance. Which is the right way to do it after the Leone lawsuit re Kolapore incident.

    It is pretty clear that only those insured can legally ride SCMBC built MTB trails. The only way to get third party insurance is through the club - SCMBC.

    Simple math: in order to legally ride SCMBC built trails on SC land - one has to be a member of SCMBC because it provides the third party insurance.

    More over - this is the only way to keep building LEGAL trails on County's land.

    It is pretty clear to me. Now - if some people have difficulties paying $40 in order to legally ride these trails - that is fine. But for crying out loud - please don't question the system because the system is the only way to have legally built trails on government land in order to legally enjoy them.

    Hence, unless SCMBC member - one is poaching the SC SCMBC built trails otherwise. It's pretty simple. And quite acceptable to me.

    Now i stand to be corrected or confirmed.
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    Oggie, thanks for typing that. Every word of what you said is correct.

    I'm not sure what all this is so hard for people to understand.
    Last edited by Satan2; 11-11-2013 at 07:13 AM.

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    It's a shame when politics insurance and liabilities
    Burdens all those hard working people out there just trying
    To build trails for all us riders. Not just this bunch , but the whole lot.
    As far as the $40 , lot cheaper than golf green fees or a dh ski pass.
    Not much more than a case of beer.
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    And many part bikes : )
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    Thanks for the info & great pictures! wow!
    I am very excited to be moving to the area in 2014 and will be within close riding distance of an SCMBC trail - we found a sign while exploring in the woods (on foot) with the kids.
    Defnitely we will be joining - excited to help out with the trails & meet more mtbers & ride ride ride!!!

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satan2 View Post
    SCMBC

    https://www.facebook.com/SCmtnbikeclub

    This club was formed to protect recreational mountain bike trails in Simcoe County.

    Support Register RIDE!

    Registration for 2014 riding season on SCMBC built and maintained trails is now available here:

    REGISTER

    Those of you on the fence - fork out $40 and you have the whole season to enjoy the trails and confirm how good a deal this is. The cost of a premium box of beer.

    I just registered and can't wait to hit the trails again.
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  53. #53
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    I understand there is a tour group offering guided rides in Simcoe County including trails maintained by SCMBC. How is that going to work with the $40.00 user fee? Could add up to a very costly 2 hour ride.

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    seems pretty simple really-- buy tags for the bikes. it's a seasonal deal and the cost would be offset per number of tours.
    But, if these guided tours require the participant to pay a fee, the price of the tags may be only part of the big picture, as I believe there is a comercial licence required to the tune of approx $1000.
    That's part of it, but really, why would anyone expect to gain monetarily from the hard work of others without paying/doing their fair share?

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    Only a small bit of info missing in this when bringing snowmobiles and how they have to have a permit. As I mentioned before the OFSC asks it's members to buy their membership locally. However here is the big info hit missing..... the permit allows them to use other trail systems in the province. So for example if a OFSC member buys one in Kingston he can go visit his buddy in Stratford and the permit is still good. No other permit purchases are needed.

    This is not the same idea and using that as example is confusing for obvious reasons.

    Bike club suggests $40 trail permits in Simcoe County

  56. #56
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    I was under the impression that the trail permit was mandated by the SC, as previously posted in this thread by another member and confirmed by a member of the SCMBC, but the article says that the permit idea was the clubs and SC does not support it as it does not fit within their policy.

    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post

    Hence, unless SCMBC member - one is poaching the SC SCMBC built trails otherwise. It's pretty simple. And quite acceptable to me.

    Now i stand to be corrected or confirmed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Satan2 View Post
    Oggie, thanks for typing that. Every word of what you said is correct.

    I'm not sure what all this is so hard for people to understand.
    Quote Originally Posted by Simcoe News Article
    However, the permit idea doesn’t have the support of Simcoe County.

    Simcoe County forester Graeme Davis said he understands the club’s intent behind a fee, but added it won’t be happening.

    “At this point, it doesn’t fit with our policy and we don’t think it’s the right way to go,” Davis said.
    HUH????? Can anyone shed some light on this and clear up the muddy waters?
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  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikin' Bric View Post
    I was under the impression that the trail permit was mandated by the SC, as previously posted in this thread by another member and confirmed by a member of the SCMBC, but the article says that the permit idea was the clubs and SC does not support it as it does not fit within their policy.







    HUH????? Can anyone shed some light on this and clear up the muddy waters?
    I would leave it to satan2 to comment at this point. I was not involved in negotiations with the County.
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    I would leave it to satan2 to comment at this point. I was not involved in negotiations with the County.
    Actually at this point I would think a official statement from the County and Forester would achieve better results. Like how the TRCA posts or at least posted about issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikin' Bric View Post
    I was under the impression that the trail permit was mandated by the SC, as previously posted in this thread by another member and confirmed by a member of the SCMBC, but the article says that the permit idea was the clubs and SC does not support it as it does not fit within their policy.







    HUH????? Can anyone shed some light on this and clear up the muddy waters?
    The club was the one that brought the idea to Simcoe County. Their reasons for this have been well explained.

    From sitting in the AGM and listening to the one Forrester(not Graeme) it was clear the county was/is considering it. The county by no means shot the idea down and its probably still on the table.

    For now the county has received a lot of "feedback" saying its not welcome, and public opinion is pretty strong so they are taking their time with deciding.

    In my opinion this is a good thing, if someone can come up with an idea to keep the trails free and well groomed and insured and keep building new trails this is the opportunity. SCMBC has pitched their plan we'll see if someone(or org) else can come up with a better idea.

    Its bought time for different ideas,

    FD I am a current paid up member of the SCMBC, happily pitching in to help offset the cost of insurance and maintenance.

    I would like to see the membership continue to be voluntary as well and welcome non-locals to the trails freely. If anyone has any ideas on how to do that in a sustainable way PM me id be happy to take them to the club board. I will continue to pay a membership to have that voice in the hopes that I can help come up with an idea or bring that idea to the club. In the meantime I'm just a stupid MTB racer, enjoying the amazing riding around here.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by swabag View Post
    T

    Its bought time for different ideas,
    Agreed. Reality is the old model of pay and support the trails doesn't work. Doesn't because as has been regurgitated numerous times before this doesn't draw in members and revenue clubs keep wanting. Times have changed and as shown by the clubs here and the US who are creative when it comes to raising funds are getting more dollars. Which allows equipment to be bought and so on.

    Ponca's Revenge XC Mountain Bike Race

    And as I mentioned before. WORCA used to follow the old model similar to SCMBC is using. And no matter what they could never get the numbers and dollars. Yet once they got creative with races and such all that increased. And could buy equipment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Actually at this point I would think a official statement from the County and Forester would achieve better results. Like how the TRCA posts or at least posted about issues.
    I don't think the county requires a statement at all. Clearly the recreational policy is working and allows equal access to the public lands. Not exclusive rights to a single group that is advocating to change the policy to "permit required".

    Why should an entire community be impacted by a single user group?

    Perhaps a proper explanation in terms of what the SCMBC long-term vision is at this time. Especially if people have no interest in a winter grooming machine. Clearly the forest has come before the trees or wish to advocate a change of the county recreational policy. One thing remains though, all we hear is crickets from Satan2 (whether its in the forest or the trees)....

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonstonemarv View Post
    I don't think the county requires a statement at all. Clearly the recreational policy is working and allows equal access to the public lands. Not exclusive rights to a single group that is advocating to change the policy to "permit required".

    Why should an entire community be impacted by a single user group?

    Perhaps a proper explanation in terms of what the SCMBC long-term vision is at this time. Especially if people have no interest in a winter grooming machine. Clearly the forest has come before the trees or wish to advocate a change of the county recreational policy. One thing remains though, all we hear is crickets from Satan2 (whether its in the forest or the trees)....
    You obviously came up with your own conclusions without hearing from Satan2. If you really want to know the background of this contentious issue - read through this thread, though i would have expected that you have done it before making your statements.

    Arguing with people on this forum is not very productive. Everyone who wants to argue is hiding behind their keyboards, doing absolutely nothing for the trails and only complaining. Complaining without offering a solution or at least getting involved is useless waste of time.

    Why dont you join a trailbuilding or trail maintenance session with SCMBC and find out for yourself answers to all your questions.

    Everything that can be said on this forum has been said already.
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    Everything has not been said and my points are valid. What trail maintenance have you done? Its too bad you interpret askingg valid questions that are not being answered as arguing.

    At the end of the day there are options. Perhaps the club is not prepared to go in that direction because they feel entitled to land that isnt there's. There is nothing stopping any other organization to complete user agreements to use the exact same land.

    We now know the club misrepresented its members and indicated the county required permits regardless of your semantics. What else is the club prepared to misrepresent?

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonstonemarv View Post
    Everything has not been said and my points are valid. What trail maintenance have you done? Its too bad you interpret askingg valid questions that are not being answered as arguing.

    At the end of the day there are options. Perhaps the club is not prepared to go in that direction because they feel entitled to land that isnt there's. There is nothing stopping any other organization to complete user agreements to use the exact same land.

    We now know the club misrepresented its members and indicated the county required permits regardless of your semantics. What else is the club prepared to misrepresent?
    I have joined the club and part of my membership fee will go towards trail building. I also appreciate their efforts and support them in what they are trying to do.

    Membership of the club supported the direction that the club has taken. You should have attended the AGM to find out for yourself.

    One thing that you are saying is true though: nothing is preventing the club that you will start from entering a user agreement with the county and set your own rules. Oops, we both know that you will not found any club nor help building any new trails - but you will continue to minimize and disrespect some ACTUAL work and trail building that this club has done.

    I dont even live in your neck of the woods and have no dog in this race. Just calling spade a spade.

    The club did not misrepresent anything. Educate yourself before you make such statements. All the info is available in this thread.
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    Semantics... perhaps you should learn to read for yourself instead of being a sheep. Please show me one document or County policy indicating a rider requires any of this. Clearly this agenda was being pushed and the county is not prepared to follow suit so to speak. Call a spade a spade? Perhaps if people were more educated and didnt rely on others to form their conclusions they would see this for what it is. Go read the recreational policy and come back and talk.

    And as I have said numerous times but clearly you are too thick to understand. Saying its required to comply vs. Lobbying as an organization are completely different. Obviously the response from the public and community is NOT that of the club.

    Also who said I was starting anything. This further demonstrates your lack of comprehension and ability to respond in a non-conflicting manner. Thanks for coming out bud.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonstonemarv View Post
    Semantics... perhaps you should learn to read for yourself instead of being a sheep. Please show me one document or County policy indicating a rider requires any of this. Clearly this agenda was being pushed and the county is not prepared to follow suit so to speak. Call a spade a spade? Perhaps if people were more educated and didnt rely on others to form their conclusions they would see this for what it is. Go read the recreational policy and come back and talk.

    And as I have said numerous times but clearly you are too thick to understand. Saying its required to comply vs. Lobbying as an organization are completely different. Obviously the response from the public and community is NOT that of the club.

    Also who said I was starting anything. This further demonstrates your lack of comprehension and ability to respond in a non-conflicting manner. Thanks for coming out bud.
    Lol and you are wondering why Satan2 is not responding?

    Simply because it is waste of time with you and like minded. They have more important things to do, like building trails for us to enjoy.

    That surprisingly includes you as well.

    Keep your rubber down. And keep personal insults to a minimum. You never know who you can run into on the trail. Bud.
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    Lol and you are wondering why Satan2 is not responding?

    Simply because it is waste of time with you and like minded. They have more important things to do, like building trails for us to enjoy.

    That surprisingly includes you as well.

    Keep your rubber down. And keep personal insults to a minimum. You never know who you can run into on the trail. Bud.
    What are you even talking about? Those are great generalizations you have made. Sorry for asking valid questions. Also inferences of violence further demonstrates the lowbrow nature of this organization. You are certainly not helping their cause. its like dealing with children... Have any other tantrums you would like to display and deflect from the issue at hand? Those morons are the same people you want to be apart of your club. Perhaps all the morons should just enjoy riding and have nothing to do with such classless and threatening attitudes/behaviours.

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    Ummmm... hello? Time to dial it back a notch here for anyone participating in this thread. Ill start by saying pretty please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moonstonemarv View Post
    What are you even talking about? Those are great generalizations you have made. Sorry for asking valid questions. Also inferences of violence further demonstrates the lowbrow nature of this organization. You are certainly not helping their cause. its like dealing with children... Have any other tantrums you would like to display and deflect from the issue at hand? Those morons are the same people you want to be apart of your club. Perhaps all the morons should just enjoy riding and have nothing to do with such classless and threatening attitudes/behaviours.
    I have been trying to stay on topic. No need here to resort to personal insults and dont understand why you are doing it.

    Dont know why you call people "morons" nor who they are. If you could - please elaborate.

    I just have my opinion on the club in which area i dont even live, but am happy to help them with my $40 so that they continue to build trails. I was fortunate enough to ride most of them, with one of the builders. What a beautiful area for adventure riding.

    I am sorry if you dont support their goals. Maybe you can get involved and promote your ideas. Couch critics dont help anyone.

    FYI i am very familiar with most of the premises about the user agreement and i suggest that you familiarize yourself too. It will remove a lot of anxiety and aggravation that is on display around here. SCMBC are not an enemy.

    Get involved and work toward your goals. Dont piss on other people's hard work. If you read available documentation you would have realized that those trails are yours as well.

    And relax - i am a good guy and always there to help my friends on the trail.
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    Morons as in suggesting my questions can easily be disregarded as well as others with similar perspectives. I am not crapping on the trail work that has been completed. My question remains the same and I will leave it at that. It is too bad the club isnt prepared to address the issue.

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    I'd say the problem now is we have conflicting and/or incomplete information coming from a variety of sources, making it hard for someone who isn't plugged into the inner workings to know WTF is going on and what the situation is. Apparently permits can't be enforced, which effectively makes them voluntary, but it appears insurance is mandatory to ride (portions of) the trails, which only comes with a permit. Or something. And I've heard the trail map is only available to members, so people could inadvertently find themselves trespassing on trails, but you can't enforce that, but then no insurance, which is bad, or something. And a quick look around the SCMBC page doesn't help.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    I'd say the problem now is we have conflicting and/or incomplete information coming from a variety of sources, making it hard for someone who isn't plugged into the inner workings to know WTF is going on and what the situation is. Apparently permits can't be enforced, which effectively makes them voluntary, but it appears insurance is mandatory to ride (portions of) the trails, which only comes with a permit. Or something. And I've heard the trail map is only available to members, so people could inadvertently find themselves trespassing on trails, but you can't enforce that, but then no insurance, which is bad, or something. And a quick look around the SCMBC page doesn't help.
    If you read the first page of this thread - you will get all the answers. SC does not require any insurance if there were no new trails built.

    If new trails were to be built - there would have to be a 3rd party liability insurance (Leone case) for all those that use them. It will not be enforced and it is voluntary.

    I doubt that anything changed. To me it looks like someone from the SC who was out of the whole process made a statement that sounded conflicting. I would trust an official document much more than a newspaper statement.

    Personally - for $40 i can not believe there is so much whining and complaining. If i had a problem with "user fees" i would still pay $40 as my charitable contribution without a tax receipt in order to help building new trails, even though i would be using them once or twice per year.

    It seems that there is a lot of bad blood in the area and that is never a good thing as it is dividing the community. And that aint good.

    Even if everything is not perfect - we should support the only effort in the area and work towards getting the process and the structure better.

    Just complaining will not get us anywhere. I wish there was a similar trail system closer to Toronto. But there isnt one.
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  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post

    Just complaining will not get us anywhere. I wish there was a similar trail system closer to Toronto. But there isnt one.
    that is incorrect a huge inter-connective trial system is being built along the humber river that will meet the needs of all riders and stakeholders from lake ontario to the headwaters. it will require no fees to ride and be accessible to all members of the community. accommodation will even be made for people with mobility issues.

    here's a link of one section right beside where i live.

    I'm pleased to say the Nashville trail alignment map is up

    since you are a resident near the watershed and ride in the gta, i'm counting on your support.
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    Here is the policy.... Page 15 refers to cyclists:

    http://www.simcoe.ca/ws_cos/groups/p...cos_002654.pdf

    Page 3 refers to Mountain Biking as permitted and user agreements are required to build trails/organized events such as races. If I remember correctly in the past running races through the County Forest was a contentious issues for some of the board members. This was LEGAL but they were opposed to people riding "THEIR" trails...

    You call it "bad blood" Osokoko - its call being informed and aware of the circumstances. You can't have your cake and eat too.

    I am all for single track development and I would support any organization doing so. I am hesitant on supporting an organization that provides rationale for its existence - while at the same time is trying to divide a sport with attempts to change a recreational policy/mandate of the area (regardless of its location). Particularly in a round-about way that does not include due process. People need to be informed about what is really going on and allow the community to speak in congruence with the direction of the County/tax payers.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonstonemarv View Post
    Here is the policy.... Page 15 refers to cyclists:

    http://www.simcoe.ca/ws_cos/groups/p...cos_002654.pdf

    Page 3 refers to Mountain Biking as permitted and user agreements are required to build trails/organized events such as races. If I remember correctly in the past running races through the County Forest was a contentious issues for some of the board members. This was LEGAL but they were opposed to people riding "THEIR" trails...

    You call it "bad blood" Osokoko - its call being informed and aware of the circumstances. You can't have your cake and eat too.

    I am all for single track development and I would support any organization doing so. I am hesitant on supporting an organization that provides rationale for its existence - while at the same time is trying to divide a sport with attempts to change a recreational policy/mandate of the area (regardless of its location). Particularly in a round-about way that does not include due process. People need to be informed about what is really going on and allow the community to speak in congruence with the direction of the County/tax payers.
    I call it having an axe to grind. That is all. You didnt get it your way and now you are pissed and trying to discredit the group who is actually doing something. For embarrassing $40. Which is one 2 by 4 of beer.

    Do i trust the government? Lol. I see where you are going with this.

    All the answers are available and public.

    You just dont like them. And that is fine. Just get out and ride your bike. You dont have to be a member of this club.
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    “I'd say the problem now is we have conflicting and/or incomplete information coming from a variety of sources, making it hard for someone who isn't plugged into the inner workings to know WTF is going on and what the situation is.” Things are evolving but most everything is still the exact same as when we started SCMBC 10 months ago. If you would like to help please buy a $40 membership, if you would not like to help then do not buy a membership.


    “ Apparently permits can't be enforced, which effectively makes them voluntary,” No they can not be enforced and SCMBC NEVER asked for enforcement. We wanted the land owner to say “permit required” so that people would know that our system is being funded by the user not the government.

    “ but it appears insurance is mandatory to ride (portions of) the trails,” Insurance is not mandatory to ride the government owned land. Insurance is mandatory to maintain and build new singletrack. So if you are just a user, no insurance necessary. But if you are a real helper, insurance is a must. Our private property sections will have large NO TRESPASSING signs and yes you need to be a member to ride them please. You will not be able to miss the signage and it is only $40 which helps us grow.

    “which only comes with a permit.” Yes our Oasis Insurance is for building and maintaining, not racing.

    “Or something.” pretty easy stuff that has been explain again and again, but people want to cause fights not build trail. Too bad!

    “ And I've heard the trail map is only available to members,” Our tools, way finding paint, signs, insurance, land owner meetings, website, etc. is all paid for by SCMBC members and many here want to take us down to zero benefit for joining the club. When you show up at our trails without a map you find them VERY well marked and buff all paid for by private SCMBC money. Yes the maps are for members and they help build new singletrack. Please purchase one and build some new trail without getting your hands dirty.

    “so people could inadvertently find themselves trespassing on trails,” no you will know when you are trespassing and you could of been welcome for only $40


    “ but you can't enforce that,” but then no insurance,” a smart phone picture of you and then your vehicle would be a way, hope it does not come to that and people either help or respect our private property agreements that we work hard for.


    “but then no insurance, which is bad, or something. And a quick look around the SCMBC page doesn't help.” Perhaps if all this is still not clear you should not look so quick, or if you care so little perhaps you should not comment on it.

    SCMBC is trying to build a huge network now. We can do this if people look for the good instead of looking really really hard for some bad. 10 000 of acres to build on and we are spending time on why $40. Oh well SCMBC will just keep on keeping on with the help of MTBers who care.

    Tom Shaw
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    Thank you for the post Tom.

    Will SCMBC continue to advocate for the rec policy to be changed?

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    So, to summarize, permits cannot and will not be enforced. Insurance is not required to ride the government owned portions. Private portions will have "no trespassing signs", which apparently will be impossible to miss. And there's no enforcement, other than smartphone photos and/or a stern talking to. So basically, the permit is required only for the privately owned portions of the trails, everything else is no permit required and no enforcement. Sounds about right?

    Yes, I'm being deliberately difficult. But better to iron things out here instead of having something go pear shaped where people aren't quite as nice & understanding.

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    That does sound right aerius. If you would like to help SCMBC build and maintain singletrack now, as in today, not a promise for something years down the road, all you need to do is purchase a $40 membership, very simple, very ironed out.

    Thanks to moonstonemarv and aerius for being so nice. Cheers

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    Tom, I really don't think the $40 is the issue. How the information is being presented is the difficulty. Also if you could please answer the question it would be appreciated. I dont believe everything I read in the paper but a response from you would be helpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moonstonemarv View Post
    Tom, I really don't think the $40 is the issue. How the information is being presented is the difficulty. Also if you could please answer the question it would be appreciated. I dont believe everything I read in the paper but a response from you would be helpful.
    Now that SCMBC board member came out and answered questions, out of curiosity - and since you are "from the area" MMarv: why is Barrie Cycling Club so against SCMBC and is not working with SCMBC? From what i have heard/seen - BCC is really playing a hardball with SCMBC for some reason, throwing sticks in their wheels...

    Isn't the journalist who wrote the confusing piece in the paper, where he misquoted the SC official, a friend of the BCC executive member?

    While at it - are you a BCC member? maybe even executive?

    Just to keep things honest. I would think that two clubs who gravitate in the same geographical area would support each other. Why is it not happening my friend?

    I am sure you can offer us an "insiders report", just if you want to.
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    moonstone marv I am not sure what you are trying to do here, it does not sound like you are trying to build new singletrack, but I could be wrong. To answer your question SCMBC is continue to advocate for the funding of new singletrack, it is just that simple, we are not looking to get into a stern talking to other people who are not members, we are not looking to fight with people. If $40 is not a problem you can voice your thoughts within the club who is building new singletrack. Please join the effort, that is all.

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    Oggie thanks for your support of SCMBC, we hope more will. The BCC issues are in the past and we should not bring up bad feelings. Let's all focus on building new singletrack and leave other past problems were they should stay, in the past.

    Please support SCMBC with a $40 membership or not, up to you.
    But please do not derail our efforts at putting our tools to work building something we all love.

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    Tom: I am trying to get a straight answer which seems to be quite difficult for some odd reason. I am all for trails and support there of - that has been clear in my posts. I have asked a simple question that is not being answered.

    Osokolo: keep stirring the pot with conspiracy theories rather than letting the grown ups talk....

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    Oggie please let this go. Looking forward to a ride with you this spring and thanks for your help.

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    Well it is unfortunate the pay now talk later mentality continues to exist. Thanks for telling us what we already knew.

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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    that is incorrect a huge inter-connective trial system is being built along the humber river that will meet the needs of all riders and stakeholders from lake ontario to the headwaters. it will require no fees to ride and be accessible to all members of the community. accommodation will even be made for people with mobility issues
    i do appreciate this effort as well, but when i ride it for the first time - i will be able to comment. I have ridden SCMBC built trails, and they are phenomenal.

    here's a link of one section right beside where i live.

    I'm pleased to say the Nashville trail alignment map is up

    since you are a resident near the watershed and ride in the gta, i'm counting on your support.
    the project has already received my support, by ways of my tax money. i hope you will acknowledge that the efforts of SCMBC are purely self funded - there is no government money involved like for example in case of Barrie Cycling Club - where almost $300,000 was received from the government and we are still waiting to ride some single track that was built using this money. It seems that this is one of the root problems when it comes to the resistance to what SCMBC is trying to do. They are merely showing that they can build the great single track based SOLELY on members' support, as the government money seems to be spent without much control and accountability. Maybe not in case of Humber Watershed, but in case of Simcoe County user groups - it sort of smells a bit.

    Waiting for moonstonemarv to answer my questions regarding BCC and the background of their disapproval of SCMBC - i am sure he has the inside information on this feud. So sad.

    In the meantime, if there is any initiative that may help with your Humber project - I am more than willing to help. I suck with time - don't have enough, but there are ways and means that we all can help, not just rely on government money. The way it is spent does not give much assurance that it will be around for much longer. Better rely on users than on government. That is just my 2 cents... or $40... depends on how you look at it.
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  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonstonemarv View Post
    Tom: I am trying to get a straight answer which seems to be quite difficult for some odd reason. I am all for trails and support there of - that has been clear in my posts. I have asked a simple question that is not being answered.

    Osokolo: keep stirring the pot with conspiracy theories rather than letting the grown ups talk....
    oops - stirring the pot? looks like i have hit the nerve with my BCC question.

    you are asking Tom for some straight answers - and complaining how you are not getting them.

    how about you answer my questions about BCC and government grants and tell us which single track was built with almost $300,000 in taxpayers' money?

    please? it's a pretty straight forward question.

    also - are you a BCC member or even a BCC executive?



    gotcha, eh?
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  89. #89
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    Holy crap with the petty behavior. Yeah, SMBC could have done a better job explaining their plan. Unlike some, I sent off an email and got answers. I also checked their FB page and I am sure that the club is not up to any nefarious activity to take over the world. I am short on time myself and need it all of it to get out and ride. All I know is that the club is building single track and that is good for everyone and worth my $40.00. I am astounded at the negativity around this, and can't help but wonder if there is an axe to grind somewhere.
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    Its too bad Tom needs Osokolo to do his talking. Oh well. Keep on keeping on. I wonder if the SCMBC website will devote a section to "poachers" and upload pictures of non-members and their cars....

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Shaw View Post
    That does sound right aerius. If you would like to help SCMBC build and maintain singletrack now, as in today, not a promise for something years down the road, all you need to do is purchase a $40 membership, very simple, very ironed out.

    Thanks to moonstonemarv and aerius for being so nice. Cheers
    Cool. I promise I'll stop playing bad cop soon. With that out of the way, back to bad cop. So, since permits aren't needed to ride the trails and anyone can ride any portion of the system without getting anything worse than a possible smartphone photo or talking to, the trail system is effectively open to ride for all. In which case, wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the $40 membership fee isn't a permit to ride the trails, but rather, it's a fee which pays for the trail work, insurance, and the operating costs of the club? And following onto that, shouldn't the purpose of the bike tags/stickers and what they entitle you to be explained somewhere prominent on the SCMBC site, such as say, the home page, info page, or membership registration form?

    Granted, few people read the forms they're signing, but some people do and there's gonna be questions. And if you're unlucky, you might get lawyered to death.

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    I think you are way out of line with that comment Marv. There is nothing to suggest that kind of action from SMBC. There is no doubt that you have an agenda of some sort and I too am calling you out to answer the posted questions. You are free to voice your opinions as are we all, but your question is inflammatory and baseless. You are being disparaging without any kind of constructive comment.
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    Permit required, an the article in the paper and this entire thread would suggest something else.

    The repeat of information doesnt provide clarity. Not sure why people think repeating the information presented is some how attacking the club. Jeeze get over yourselves.

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    Moderator's notes;

    - Trail building and access issues always have the potential to be contentious in the midst of different wants and needs, but it's still important information to get out there in front of people for discussion.
    - Keep this discussion in this thread. Any trend of references to this topic that creep into other threads will see attract moderator actions.
    - Always a bit of recycling/reposting of information in a large thread, but don't make it a deliberate habit.
    - Play the game, not the player. Post about the issues, not the posters.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    To the SCMBC crew - keep building the trails and members will come. There is no doubt about it.
    +1
    keep up the good work.
    Last edited by trailtrash; 09-25-2014 at 05:50 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Cool. I promise I'll stop playing bad cop soon. With that out of the way, back to bad cop. So, since permits aren't needed to ride the trails and anyone can ride any portion of the system without getting anything worse than a possible smartphone photo or talking to, the trail system is effectively open to ride for all.
    And thus we have come full circle to come back to nothing has really changed. And like riding on the various tracks around outside of Kingston really at the discretion of the landowners.

    Thank you and have a good night.

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    Simcoe County Mountain Bike Club

    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    And thus we have come full circle to come back to nothing has really changed. And like riding on the various tracks around outside of Kingston really at the discretion of the landowners.

    Thank you and have a good night.
    Funny thing this was said many times in the past. If one can read between the lines.
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    "Will SCMBC continue to advocate for the rec policy to be changed?"

    No

    We do feel that it needs to be changed. But doing so would be a huge undertaking and the present rec policy has many great points to work with. We do not want to be a PITA to the land owner so we will work with what we have. The landowner/Simcoe County understands our issues and also understands that without SCMBC they do not have well maintained MTB singletrack on their land. They also understand that the SCMBC members are funding all costs for great singletrack. They also understand that it is not fair that SCMBC members require insurance while others who are not members do not. They understand that SCMBC should be promoted as something they want supported. So for now a few carry the rest. Also we stated our members were always in favour of visitors and occasional riders enjoying the trails for free. But we felt regular riders should help with $40. Permit Required, No Enforcement. Very simple concept.

    To be clear there is no permit required. I do not want to be called a liar because someone did not take the time to read the info.

    If we only had a 4000 acres to work with and were looking at maintaining 48kms of singletrack then perhaps a few could fund the upkeep. But we are looking at a much larger scope and all that is keeping us from building something fantastic for Ontario is $upport. I came back on MTBR not because I am thinking that we are going to magically get that support from some well worded posts, I came back here because a friend who has poured countless hours of volunteer time into this project was being called dishonest. Which is utter BS and I could not sit by and watch it. He should be thanked for all the effort he has put in, but instead has to deal with this hate.

    We have and will continue to work very hard at building a mecca, if you are with us great, it is going to be fun, if you are not with us the trails are buff, well marked, free and I am positive that a local disgruntled group will make sure our maps to our hard work get posted here by some "stage name." What ever, it really is about all they can do since building their own to promote would entail real work.

    I hope that answered all your questions Marv and I really hope you stop kicking people who are building something you enjoy.

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    I hope you keep your promise aerius, because I have enough to do for paying "members" that I am sick and tired of answering questions from non helper. Or you could beg someone for $40 and ask all the questions you want on our club FB page and I would be happy to answer them. Cool?

    The idea of the "permit" came up at one of the many, many, many meetings we have had with the County. Of course SCMBC was for "members", but we really did not care what it was called as long as we had money for NEW singletrack. I will not get into the particulars it now no longer matters, never really did in our view, so yes "membership", unless you would like it called something else that would get you off your wallet.

    "And following onto that, shouldn't the purpose of the bike tags/stickers and what they entitle you to be explained somewhere prominent on the SCMBC site, such as say, the home page, info page, or membership registration form?"

    Good idea and more work for a very few number of people, as in one person, not me and not the person who has been kicked here.

    Now I have a question for you Mr aerius, after we do all this work that did not need to be done before over 150 people saw the value of a $40 SCMBC MEMBERSHIP, will you be purchasing a SCMBC MEMBERSHIP? If so please pm me your really name so that I can look for it coming through our zone 4 registration, if not well thanks for nothing really.

    Wait, maybe you can be of some use, I do not want to get sued for volunteering to helping my MTB community. What does this mean? "And if you're unlucky, you might get lawyered to death."
    Thanks in advance for your help aerius

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    Tom thank you for taking the time to provide the insight. There is no hidden agenda. Just wanted a simple answer. It is unfortunate others are able to interpret things the way the want.

    If your board member was misquoted for whatever reason I am sorry to hear that. Obviously the policy is dated and does not reflect the current dynamics in the county with respect to trail use. Where it will end up - only time will tell.

    Thanks for all your hard work in making the trails what they are today. Hopefully more will embrace the development of trails and show support. All the best - Marv.

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