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  1. #1
    namagomi
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    Racing and Trail Maintenance

    Buckwallow? Crap.

    Now will come the OCA xc trail cleaning/29r prep squad.

  2. #2
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkj__ View Post
    Huh? Chico / OCA has been running races at Buckwallow for years, without screwing it up.
    Really the ocup was there? Haha, sorry...

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Buckwallow? Crap.

    Now will come the OCA xc trail cleaning/29r prep squad.
    Huh? Chico / OCA has been running races at Buckwallow for years, without screwing it up.
    When under pressure, your level of performance will sink to your level of preparation.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Really the ocup was there? Haha, sorry...
    Can't tell if serious...

    Anyhow, here's this year's O-Cup Thread. My favourite course every year!
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  5. #5
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    Can't tell if serious...

    Anyhow, here's this year's O-Cup Thread. My favourite course every year!
    I know it's shocking that I wouldn't have been racing xc@ocup, but that stuff isn't on my radar at all. Last O-cup series I was invited to was over a decade ago.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I know it's shocking that I wouldn't have been racing xc@ocup, but that stuff isn't on my radar at all. Last O-cup series I was invited to was over a decade ago.
    Well, if that's what it takes, I officially invite you.

  7. #7
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    Well, if that's what it takes, I officially invite you.
    Hehe, thanks Nerdgirl! Team Monster? What I meant was invited by a coach from a team. I don't even know how the series works if you're reg an individual class or what the skinny is. If i get the urge i'm sure the info is on oca's site.

    I was having visions of people with "cleaning" up do drop and weasel.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I know it's shocking that I wouldn't have been racing xc@ocup, but that stuff isn't on my radar at all. Last O-cup series I was invited to was over a decade ago.
    Why not just admit that you could not race an o-cup?. All this posturing and the "invited to an o-cup" remark are a bit too much, don't you think?
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  9. #9
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious View Post
    Why not just admit that you could not race an o-cup?. All this posturing and the "invited to an o-cup" remark are a bit too much, don't you think?
    Ooohh.. lol.


  10. #10
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor View Post
    Must not stop and eat blueberries while racing.
    You can't eat plastic trophies, can you? Better pick those blueberries while you can.

    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Thanks for the replies! Obviously Chico and the OCA must be doing something right, because plenty of people show up for these races. Good luck to everyone, have a great season!!


    If they're doing something right for mtb it sure isn't registering on my radar. In fact I think they do some harm since trail closures result after they've been by. Unless you mean what is popular is right, but if that is the case don't bother responding!

  11. #11
    Evil Jr.
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    In fact I think they do some harm since trail closures result after they've been by.
    Examples?

    I know some trails in Albion have been closed and/or rerouted but those trails needed work anyhow. I can't think of anything else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    If they're doing something right for mtb it sure isn't registering on my radar. In fact I think they do some harm since trail closures result after they've been by. Unless you mean what is popular is right, but if that is the case don't bother responding!
    I was diplomatically easing my way out of the conversation! I asked why the scheduled races were in such-and-such a format, and that seemed to be somewhat on-topic. Debating whether they should be in that same format is something I’ll save for another thread

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    If they're doing something right for mtb it sure isn't registering on my radar. In fact I think they do some harm since trail closures result after they've been by. Unless you mean what is popular is right, but if that is the case don't bother responding!
    To some mountain biking is like religion, if you don't follow their prescribed ideals of the sport you are wrong. Truly our sport's biggest problem is within.

    There are very few invdividuals involved with mountain biking, and a lot more with sports like golf. If we could multiply by 10 all the people doing something for this sport - whether it is riding areas, trail building, events or riding clinics - there would be more opportunity for everyone to enjoy the sport. Racer, freerider, dirt jumper, dh or any combo - the more the better in my opinion as long as they are positive influences.

    Stay positive and the best to everyone Look forward to seeing many of you this season.

  14. #14
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    Examples?

    I know some trails in Albion have been closed and/or rerouted but those trails needed work anyhow. I can't think of anything else.
    Yup, Albion is one and i am thinking of others that have to be closed afterwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by chicoracing View Post
    To some mountain biking is like religion, if you don't follow their prescribed ideals of the sport you are wrong. Truly our sport's biggest problem is within.

    There are very few invdividuals involved with mountain biking, and a lot more with sports like golf. If we could multiply by 10 all the people doing something for this sport - whether it is riding areas, trail building, events or riding clinics - there would be more opportunity for everyone to enjoy the sport. Racer, freerider, dirt jumper, dh or any combo - the more the better in my opinion as long as they are positive influences.

    Stay positive and the best to everyone Look forward to seeing many of you this season.
    Whose religion though Chicoracing - certainly you must realize we're diverse and that we don't worship the same gods.

    I think it's pretty simple math to me that trails get damaged and some closed when these races are held. It leaves a bad picture in the eyes of other people and maybe some doubt in those who partook in the festivity. The latest bit of evidence for this idea came from the Copeland meeting. Almost nobody at the meeting wanted any racing events there.

    I'm also not buying this idea that Chico Racing, OCA or UCI expands our sport. That is a bit self serving. To me it is more like they harness what is already out there and for that they should be grateful there are organisations like the IMBA and countless small ones doing the grassroots level development.

    I'm not saying racing sucks or something, it is fun to goto a big party with your friends, but anybody who has had one at their home knows what it looks like the morning after and what your neighbours will think of you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    If they're doing something right for mtb it sure isn't registering on my radar. In fact I think they do some harm since trail closures result after they've been by. Unless you mean what is popular is right, but if that is the case don't bother responding!





    Quote Originally Posted by afalts View Post
    No need to follow suit with triathlons where just about everyone can be a 'winner' if they choose the right class
    As the Eastern sections resident relapsed Tri Geek. And having competed in events here in Ontario after moving out here it was suggested to me that I should check Clyde on my race entries. By of all people my wife. Nope.. I'm old school triathlon. If you are in my age group I'm beating your arse with sheer hard work. When I'm in full Tri Racerhead mode I'm not known for low mileage.



    If you haven't puked at the finish line you are not going hard enough.

  16. #16
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Well, I haven't run around with a tire tied to me or cooked little children in a stew. So I guess there are no good options!

    If you, instead of Chico, want to explain how hosting a race happens at a venue that can't exist because the management now excludes bicycles and consequently now there are fewer people who've ridden a bicycle off-road then go ahead. However, I think a donation to IMBA is a better answer. Physically supporting your local mtb trail maintenance crew better... However too few do that, in fact some think just because you enter a race you've covered everything or the race organizer has and that is usually pretty far from the truth. This idea is why i commented on raganwald's statement about these various organizations doing something right(i think he meant popular), as if something popular couldn't be making some problems for others and themselves.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Well, I haven't run around with a tire tied to me or cooked little children in a stew. So I guess there are no good options!

    If you, instead of Chico, want to explain how hosting a race happens at a venue that can't exist because the management now excludes bicycles and consequently now there are fewer people who've ridden a bicycle off-road then go ahead. However, I think a donation to IMBA is a better answer. Physically supporting your local mtb trail maintenance crew better... However too few do that, in fact some think just because you enter a race you've covered everything or the race organizer has and that is usually pretty far from the truth. This idea is why i commented on raganwald's statement about these various organizations doing something right(i think he meant popular), as if something popular couldn't be making some problems for others and themselves.
    Why would I waste any further time discussing stuff like this with you? You in the last year have proven numerous times how unless we all follow how you think we are all stupid. Just look at the whole bike lane threads and how you pretty much said we are all stupid because we don't buy your views hook line and sinker. How about all the trolling you have been doing in a certain seatpost thread?

    Your as bad as the religious zealots.


    There is better things to do like training then to discuss anything like this with you further. Go a head and neg rep me all you want. All it does is motivates me even more.
    Last edited by Enduramil; 01-30-2012 at 06:08 PM.

  18. #18
    humber river advocate
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    yeah the trails in albion... it is viewed as damage control now... as long as the races are kept there and don't spread out. the trails can be brought back though, but that won't happen unless a equable trail plan is developed which involves the watershed committees and anyone else who is interested. will happen eventually, as well as standards of accountability.

    on the plus side the network of trails is expanding with a some very forward thinking people in the trca, solid trail plans, diverse volunteers and the softening of the anti mtb crowd.


    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Yup, Albion is one and i am thinking of others that have to be closed afterwards.



    Whose religion though Chicoracing - certainly you must realize we're diverse and that we don't worship the same gods.

    I think it's pretty simple math to me that trails get damaged and some closed when these races are held. It leaves a bad picture in the eyes of other people and maybe some doubt in those who partook in the festivity. The latest bit of evidence for this idea came from the Copeland meeting. Almost nobody at the meeting wanted any racing events there.

    I'm also not buying this idea that Chico Racing, OCA or UCI expands our sport. That is a bit self serving. To me it is more like they harness what is already out there and for that they should be grateful there are organisations like the IMBA and countless small ones doing the grassroots level development.

    I'm not saying racing sucks or something, it is fun to goto a big party with your friends, but anybody who has had one at their home knows what it looks like the morning after and what your neighbours will think of you.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I think it's pretty simple math to me that trails get damaged and some closed when these races are held. It leaves a bad picture in the eyes of other people and maybe some doubt in those who partook in the festivity. The latest bit of evidence for this idea came from the Copeland meeting. Almost nobody at the meeting wanted any racing events there.
    Gee, could that be because most of the current trails at Copeland aren't suitable for racing? And furthermore, the character of the trails would be quite a bit different if they were built to handle racing, a change which the locals probably won't be happy with.

    Which isn't to say you can't have a race there, because in the old days there was an XC and DH race at the Heights of Horseshoe every year. Those trails were built to handle hundreds of racers turning laps on them all day, and they're rather different from the current trails in Copeland.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Yup, Albion is one and i am thinking of others that have to be closed afterwards.
    If I am not mistaken the trail at Albion was closed after a 24 hour race, not an O-cup for what that is worth.

    Thus, I believe this to be OT and have deleted the rest of the argument I was about to start as to not further derail it.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by veteran_youth View Post

    Thus, I believe this to be OT and have deleted the rest of the argument I was about to start as to not further derail it.
    So.. Maki. How's your winter run training going?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I think it's pretty simple math to me that trails get damaged and some closed when these races are held. It leaves a bad picture in the eyes of other people and maybe some doubt in those who partook in the festivity. The latest bit of evidence for this idea came from the Copeland meeting. Almost nobody at the meeting wanted any racing events there.

    I'm also not buying this idea that Chico Racing, OCA or UCI expands our sport. That is a bit self serving. To me it is more like they harness what is already out there and for that they should be grateful there are organisations like the IMBA and countless small ones doing the grassroots level development.
    First off IMBA is great, however their development of singletrack and trails is quite recent in Ontario. I am proud that Chico Racing helped initiate many trail systems including the original singletrack at Durham Forest, Ganaraska, Dagmar (RIP), Albion Hills Conservation Area, Haliburton Forest, and Woodnewton (private granted). Racing is a significant source of mountain bike revenue for places like Buckwallow, Albion Hills, Boler Mountain, Duntroon and Hardwood Ski & Bike. Without that revenue it would definitely be harder for those spots to operate mountain biking.

    Electrik I actually agree with you that some race organizers don't put anything into the trails. That hasn't been the history for Chico Racing as we have helped to support many mountain bike venues and assisted to create many more.

    Albion Hills Conservation didn't have any singletrack prior us coming there. Had we not shown Albion a business case for mountain biking it probably would never have existed.

    We have injected thousands of hours into mountain bike venues over the years. When we had to shut down Albion Hills after a 24 hour event we came up with a plan to fix the trails and make them better. The trails at Albion Hills have improved greatly over the last few years, as well as their sustainability.

    Mountain bike trail development in Ontario is pretty much all grassroots. It doesn't matter if its' IMBA, Chico, DMBA, Hardwood or Mike.

    There is no perfect trail system, but perhaps the best in Ontario is Buckwallow IMHO. Mike has experience, knowledge of the drainage and materials he has, plus he puts his life into that venue. And his trail plan is in his head.

  23. #23
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    yeah the trails in albion... it is viewed as damage control now... as long as the races are kept there and don't spread out. the trails can be brought back though, but that won't happen unless a equable trail plan is developed which involves the watershed committees and anyone else who is interested. will happen eventually, as well as standards of accountability.

    on the plus side the network of trails is expanding with a some very forward thinking people in the trca, solid trail plans, diverse volunteers and the softening of the anti mtb crowd.
    I think incidents like that strike a blow against our relations with other conservation/outdoor communities. - Even if they only happen once. The pictures and stories are out there and all they have todo is say - look, don't you see mountain bikers destroy. I'm sure on the race circuit courses it's a bit different, but frumpy outsiders choose to see that damage instead of the truth when try get us banned from places outside the race circuit.

    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Gee, could that be because most of the current trails at Copeland aren't suitable for racing? And furthermore, the character of the trails would be quite a bit different if they were built to handle racing, a change which the locals probably won't be happy with.

    Which isn't to say you can't have a race there, because in the old days there was an XC and DH race at the Heights of Horseshoe every year. Those trails were built to handle hundreds of racers turning laps on them all day, and they're rather different from the current trails in Copeland.
    Yes they likely aren't tough enough, but that alone wouldn't stop somebody from organizing a race there which is why I assume the point was raised.

    Quote Originally Posted by chicoracing View Post
    First off IMBA is great, however their development of singletrack and trails is quite recent in Ontario. I am proud that Chico Racing helped initiate many trail systems including the original singletrack at Durham Forest, Ganaraska, Dagmar (RIP), Albion Hills Conservation Area, Haliburton Forest, and Woodnewton (private granted). Racing is a significant source of mountain bike revenue for places like Buckwallow, Albion Hills, Boler Mountain, Duntroon and Hardwood Ski & Bike. Without that revenue it would definitely be harder for those spots to operate mountain biking.

    Electrik I actually agree with you that some race organizers don't put anything into the trails. That hasn't been the history for Chico Racing as we have helped to support many mountain bike venues and assisted to create many more.

    Albion Hills Conservation didn't have any singletrack prior us coming there. Had we not shown Albion a business case for mountain biking it probably would never have existed.

    We have injected thousands of hours into mountain bike venues over the years. When we had to shut down Albion Hills after a 24 hour event we came up with a plan to fix the trails and make them better. The trails at Albion Hills have improved greatly over the last few years, as well as their sustainability.

    Mountain bike trail development in Ontario is pretty much all grassroots. It doesn't matter if its' IMBA, Chico, DMBA, Hardwood or Mike.

    There is no perfect trail system, but perhaps the best in Ontario is Buckwallow IMHO. Mike has experience, knowledge of the drainage and materials he has, plus he puts his life into that venue. And his trail plan is in his head.
    Yes IMBA is new in town and I am hoping for big things, but I am also not under the illusion that anybody besides the local crew still does the majority of the work on a trail. I am unsure of the degree to which Chico racing helped initiate the trail networks at those places, but I don't doubt they've been involved. Thank you for that.

    I am sure you worked those man hours, but they are also hours that are spent negating race damage and trying to race "proof" things. It is definitely a different flavour of trail maintenance. As somebody who doesn't race a lot, I have trouble seeing past that claim regarding such repair and trail cutting as being something altruistically motivated for mtbrs at large and not just for the racing community. This is probably the largest difference between the race organizers, OCA, UCI and the IMBA crews. It is why i'm somewhat excited about IMBA because they have a different model and possess different skills to further mtb writ large, not just towards the racing end. I'm not saying Chico doesn't have some of those skills or couldn't change, but their operating model is(i assume) basically organized around racing.

    I'm not singling out Chico and I don't keep a ranking or count of which race leaves the most course tape, gel shots and dead newts(or whatever treehuggers are on about this week). My concern there isn't that mountain bikers are actually ruining things anymore than a hiker does, but that we'll get a rep as bad house guests from large events and end up ghettoized into little resorts which would suck because we're totally sustainable at large on any sort of trail. I'm not trying to imply that trail damage can't happen, but that it typically requires the condition of a high volumes of riders in a short period of time - i.e. a race or event. Maybe you can see that coming only from the trail/conservation perspective, large racing events are a mixed blessing. These mixed blessings are why I object to the idea that because a race gets lots of mtbr together at once or is popular that it's downright good news. There is a price to pay and i'm sure you do your best to offset it, but nobody is perfect.

    Anyway, I know looots of people enjoy o-cup and 24hrs events, but I want contestants(i am probably talking to the wrong crowd here - you guys are smart) to remember that they themselves have a responsibility to the community at large and that doing what is right isn't so simple as paying a race fee - so don't forget to donate to IMBA or some time to the local trail guys!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Yes IMBA is new in town and I am hoping for big things, but I am also not under the illusion that anybody besides the local crew still does the majority of the work on a trail.
    All I'm going to add to this is that, increasingly, IMBA = the local crew. It's true in Short Hills, Guelph and here in Hamilton, for instance. IMBA isn't some huge big organization with tons of staff (at least not in Canada). It's mostly just a group of like-minded clubs and riders working together towards a common interest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chicoracing View Post
    Albion Hills Conservation didn't have any singletrack prior us coming there. Had we not shown Albion a business case for mountain biking it probably would never have existed.
    Actually that i would say is speculation. One could also say that what was done in albion hills over the years created issues with the hvhta/bta and actually hurt mtbing in the area. After many years of hard work progress is being made despite of what went on in albion hills. I would say the past albion hills model is not the best sustainable system. Though this is changing with sustainable community programs that the trca is adopting (urban farming, naturalization, mups, snap, etc) with great success.


    Quote Originally Posted by chicoracing View Post
    We have injected thousands of hours into mountain bike venues over the years. When we had to shut down Albion Hills after a 24 hour event we came up with a plan to fix the trails and make them better. The trails at Albion Hills have improved greatly over the last few years, as well as their sustainability.

    Alot of people dedicated ten of thousands of dollars in volunteer time/materials to trials. I think this is great, keep up the good work.

    It's always a good idea to have a plan. I've talked about trail plans in the past (actually for many years). I have some questions about this trial plan. Who sat on this trial plan committee? Do you have a record of the minutes? Do you have a draft of the trial plan?
    When will this trial plan be reviewed?

    While the trials have improved for some, the trials have degraded for others. This needs to be addressed and resolved for all stakeholders.
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post




    I am sure you worked those man hours, but they are also hours that are spent negating race damage and trying to race "proof" things. It is definitely a different flavour of trail maintenance.
    All you are doing with this is showing ego. All this endless crapola on here about trail work hours is pretty much measuring who is bigger. Gimme a break.. what will your next demand be? You can't do an OCup unless you have dropped shorts at the start to see who is bigger? One thing I learned as a Weasel Worker is those that rant endlessly about who does more actually do very little.

    Circlip and I have discussed this in the past about the last 2 years of " I do more then you" ego stroking. Every one does something.. some do trail work with IMBA.. some do it with Chico.. some attend meetings with IMBA.. some like Nerdgirl organize a yearly event.. and so on. Everyone gives back in their own way.

    Sure it's easy to huck rocks at Chico. Here's a novel idea... go spend a few weekends as their course worker. Trust me it will be very illuminating. After that you can take shots to your hearts content. I did the worst job possible.. course setter for the 2006 5 Peaks Series. But there is worse... boot packing the Weasel all morning, spreading fertilizer for 3 hours, digging safety nets covered in rat crap out of a container. The stuff you never see or hear about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Circlip and I have discussed this in the past about the last 2 years of " I do more then you" ego stroking. Every one does something.. some do trail work with IMBA.. some do it with Chico.. some attend meetings with IMBA.. some like Nerdgirl organize a yearly event.. and so on. Everyone gives back in their own way.
    That is an accurate representation of our dialogue on this topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    That is an accurate representation of our dialogue on this topic.
    If people left their ego in bed more could be accomplished.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Every one does something.. some do trail work with IMBA.. some do it with Chico.. some attend meetings with IMBA.. some like Nerdgirl organize a yearly event.. and so on. Everyone gives back in their own way.
    That being said, I don't think anyone should ever feel obligated to do something. Sure, it would be awesome if everyone enjoyed some or all of those things but I can accept that for some people, riding is less of a "calling" and more of a pass-time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    That being said, I don't think anyone should ever feel obligated to do something. Sure, it would be awesome if everyone enjoyed some or all of those things but I can accept that for some people, riding is less of a "calling" and more of a pass-time.
    My buddy Marshall aka Madman. Never see him do trail work or attend a meeting. But for a long time he was the ring leader of the weekend Don ride. A few years ago some rider was sniping about Marsh never digging or any of that. He shut up once I pointed out that the guy is always willing to organize and lead a ride. Marsh shows up at the DJ's after a ride and a Lowblows pit stop to BBQ and eat. Always has extra and is handing it out to others.

    The guy just loves riding and hanging with his buds. Just have to keep in mind he rides according to Carribbean time.

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    I've had the discussion of trail building/maintenance with people before. I can honestly and not sheepeshly say that given the amount of riding I have done over the years, I'm in the bottom percentage of all riders in returning good deeds to the trails. Beyond a couple trail build days and generally respecting the trails, I've done little to nothing. In all honesty, trail building isn't of much interest to me.

    So the question has come up, am I a free loader?

    The best answer I can come up with, maybe to ease my own conscious, is that people need to contribute to a 'global' community of volunteer hours.

    I've have spent significant hours devoting time to various other recreational and social endeavors, some cycling related, most not, but am I doing enough for cycling? Do I need to be doing more in the cycling community?

    Curious to see the response from everyone else.

  32. #32
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    IMO, riding is contributing. When you get a license and participate in one of Chico's fine events, you contribute to a number on a spreadsheet somewhere when people ask, "How many mountain bikers are there?"

    You also contribute when you shop at your LBS. Nobody calls Chain Reaction and ask how many $$$ a year they sell in Ontario, they try their best to count how many bike shops there are and how much money they generate.

    Finally, you contribute when you ride. Trails that are regularly used do cause erosion and what-not, but they also show the world that there are riders out there using the trails.

    None of this matters if there aren't other folks doing the back-breaking trail work or the exhausting committee work, but it still matters.

    So ride. And if you are into short-course racing of the style that Chico offers, race. You'll be doing your part too.

    Good luck to everyone this season...

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor View Post
    I've had the discussion of trail building/maintenance with people before. I can honestly and not sheepeshly say that given the amount of riding I have done over the years, I'm in the bottom percentage of all riders in returning good deeds to the trails. Beyond a couple trail build days and generally respecting the trails, I've done little to nothing. In all honesty, trail building isn't of much interest to me.

    So the question has come up, am I a free loader?

    The best answer I can come up with, maybe to ease my own conscious, is that people need to contribute to a 'global' community of volunteer hours.

    I've have spent significant hours devoting time to various other recreational and social endeavors, some cycling related, most not, but am I doing enough for cycling? Do I need to be doing more in the cycling community?

    Curious to see the response from everyone else.
    i think you can answer that question yourself.

    to me volunteerism is done to benefit the community at large without prejudice.
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  34. #34
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    i think he is perma banned here... here's a brief account of why

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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    All I'm going to add to this is that, increasingly, IMBA = the local crew. It's true in Short Hills, Guelph and here in Hamilton, for instance. IMBA isn't some huge big organization with tons of staff (at least not in Canada). It's mostly just a group of like-minded clubs and riders working together towards a common interest.
    That is a good thing because trail building/maintenance becomes a lot less mysterious and time spent working more efficient when 10 people aren't arguing pro/cons about how todo it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    All you are doing with this is showing ego. All this endless crapola on here about trail work hours is pretty much measuring who is bigger. Gimme a break.. what will your next demand be? You can't do an OCup unless you have dropped shorts at the start to see who is bigger? One thing I learned as a Weasel Worker is those that rant endlessly about who does more actually do very little.

    Circlip and I have discussed this in the past about the last 2 years of " I do more then you" ego stroking. Every one does something.. some do trail work with IMBA.. some do it with Chico.. some attend meetings with IMBA.. some like Nerdgirl organize a yearly event.. and so on. Everyone gives back in their own way.

    Sure it's easy to huck rocks at Chico. Here's a novel idea... go spend a few weekends as their course worker. Trust me it will be very illuminating. After that you can take shots to your hearts content. I did the worst job possible.. course setter for the 2006 5 Peaks Series. But there is worse... boot packing the Weasel all morning, spreading fertilizer for 3 hours, digging safety nets covered in rat crap out of a container. The stuff you never see or hear about.
    Just who was stroking their Ego. Why don't you look again and check out who was going the route "i do more trail work than you" when these racing groups should be saying "i do more trail damage than you, but I try to fix and minimize it(so my events don't get banned) and then spin it off as trail work done for the mtb community at large".

    I'm not going to work as Chico's worker, you are totally failing to comprehend my post. Not surprised. Chico and the other O-cup racers should be grateful to you, but any benefit I've received is likely small and tertiary. I trying to be nice since obviously what Chico presents isn't how others see it and i would argue much more, but i don't want to waste too much time talking to people about problems with racing community when their lives revolve around o-cup.

    Enjoy the o-cup and I hope it doesn't rain on any events.

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    It never ceases to amaze me where a thread can end up when you start it with the intention of promoting some healthy discussion on a topic.

    Electrik - I find it interesting that you have such a strongly formed opinion on something (o-cups) that is apparently not on your 'radar' at all, as stated earlier in the thread. Did you really not know that o-cups have been held at Buckwallow for the last number of years? If this is true, is this not a testament to how good of a job Chico racing has been doing of post-race cleanup and trail repair (if necessary)??

    Racers' lives do not necessarily revolve around o-cups and racing. I spent the vast majority of my mountain biking life just riding thousands of kilometres every summer, never thinking about racing and just enjoying the ride. I tried a local race and I was hooked. It's a fun way to challenge one's self. If there was a competitive weekly race series even remotely close to me, I'd probably only do those races and my need for speed would be satisfied. However, o-cups are the only format where the level of competition is high enough and the racing field is big enough to make it worth my while.

    I normally wouldn't waste my time commenting on such a thing, but I'm still down and out with a Crosby-esque injury, and I have little else to do! My racing season is now probably limited to a couple of races later in the season. So everyone - quit bickering and get to enjoy riding/training while you are healthy!!

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    New thread here split off from original thread. Division of posts may be less than perfect, but c'est la vie!

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    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oshaden View Post
    I is this not a testament to how good of a job Chico racing has been doing of post-race cleanup and trail repair (if necessary)??
    i give it a d-

    nothing worse then leaving up your race tape with your name all over it in a forest tract. make an effort to clean up all the plastic please...



    by the way we did haul out what we could fit in our packs...
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Buckwallow? Crap.

    Now will come the OCA xc trail cleaning/29r prep squad.
    They don’t turn it into a groomed road course, but for reasons which were explained to me in the thread from 2011, they <strike>dumb down</strike> democratize the course for everyone except the 1:30 racers. So if you’re racing SS or not in the top bracket, you don’t get any gnarl to play with.

    This has been presented as a positive form the perspective of making a better race, so I accept that racing XC and enjoying the unique challenges that Buckwallow can offer on other days are not necessarily congruent.

    But enough of my whining like a spoilt toddler. It’s not like they bulldoze Weasel, so no harm, no foul!

  41. #41
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    Ah.. I see Circlip has provided a thread just for the " I do more trail work then a racer" ego polishers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    So if you’re racing SS or not in the top bracket, you don’t get any gnarl to play with.
    Trail to easy? Then ride harder.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Trail to easy? Then ride harder.
    By that logic, why leave road biking?

    or if you like riding in the woods, let’s make everything smooth, flowy doubletrack. Everyone can choose their own level of difficulty by simply going as hard as they wish. As a bonus, there will be no more arguing about dumbing down trails, as there’s nowhere further “down” to go.

    EDIT: Forgot to mention: . Don’t want to run afoul of Poe’s Law!

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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    So if you’re racing SS or not in the top bracket, you don’t get any gnarl to play with.
    Srsly? Even the doubletrack at Buckwallow has some gnarl. West D'Nile is not the only source of challenge at Buckwallow.

    And since we're strutting our stuff, I challenge anyone to have raced more than me (before I was pregnant) and built more than me. Stop moaning, ya'll.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    Srsly? Even the doubletrack at Buckwallow has some gnarl. West D'Nile is not the only source of challenge at Buckwallow.
    No, but of all the trails included in 2011’s course, it’s the one worth the drive from Toronto for me, personally. Other folks have other tastes, and that’s fine with me. The Buckwallow O-Cup is extraordinarily popular, so obviously there are hundreds or maybe thousands of people who are delighted by it.

    Thus, it is probably a huge mistake to put West D-Nile in for SSers or the rest of the age-group rabble, maybe there are people who wouldn’t enjoy it or would find the racing suffers if people are walking their bikes over it and impeding faster riders lapping them.

    UPDATE: I think the right way to explain is to give this analogy: Someone in my circle says, “Hey, let’s ride Buckwallow on Saturday. Are you up for the drive?” I’d say “Sounds good!” Then they text me “West D-Nile, Weasel, and the other tech trails are closed for some trail maintenance this week-end, whaddya want to do?” I’d probably say we ride somewhere else that week-end and go back when all the trails are open.

    Absolutely zero wrong with the O-Cup circuit and with all of the trails at Buckwallow, it’s just a matter of personal preference.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    By that logic, why leave road biking?
    It works actually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    Stop moaning, ya'll.
    Well.. I have felt a slight twinge in my left Achille's.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Well.. I have felt a slight twinge in my left Achille's.
    I fell off a jump at Blue in October, my wrist still hasn't healed. I saw a specialist today, he injected steroids to try to reduce the inflammation. So, there go my hopes of using the 2012 O-Cups as a springboard to the WC... I could be the "Ben Johnson" of XC...

    Moan, whine, plaintive whimper...

  49. #49
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    Point of order: West D-Nile was NOT part of the SS O-Cup course, though we did ride it on our Saturday pre-ride anyway.
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    Somebody call for a Weasel?




  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    or if you like riding in the woods, let’s make everything smooth, flowy doubletrack. Everyone can choose their own level of difficulty by simply going as hard as they wish. As a bonus, there will be no more arguing about dumbing down trails, as there’s nowhere further “down” to go.
    Actually, there is. Think NASCAR in the woods. Though I think it would be pretty fun if they used a short enough track and turned it into bicycle derby on dirt.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by oshaden View Post
    It never ceases to amaze me where a thread can end up when you start it with the intention of promoting some healthy discussion on a topic.

    Electrik - I find it interesting that you have such a strongly formed opinion on something (o-cups) that is apparently not on your 'radar' at all, as stated earlier in the thread. Did you really not know that o-cups have been held at Buckwallow for the last number of years? If this is true, is this not a testament to how good of a job Chico racing has been doing of post-race cleanup and trail repair (if necessary)??

    Racers' lives do not necessarily revolve around o-cups and racing. I spent the vast majority of my mountain biking life just riding thousands of kilometres every summer, never thinking about racing and just enjoying the ride. I tried a local race and I was hooked. It's a fun way to challenge one's self. If there was a competitive weekly race series even remotely close to me, I'd probably only do those races and my need for speed would be satisfied. However, o-cups are the only format where the level of competition is high enough and the racing field is big enough to make it worth my while.

    I normally wouldn't waste my time commenting on such a thing, but I'm still down and out with a Crosby-esque injury, and I have little else to do! My racing season is now probably limited to a couple of races later in the season. So everyone - quit bickering and get to enjoy riding/training while you are healthy!!
    For somebody with so much time to waste you certainly wasted none of it to understand my point.

    Firstly i'm glad a guy like you, who is too big for the little races and compares himself to a multi-million dollar NHL athlete took the time to comment. It is true I don't ride a lot of o-cup courses - Out of the options you get, why anybody would chose to ride 'em is beyond me because they're pure snore. If I wanted a parking lot crit series i'd go to one... a lot less mileage on the vehicle.

    Anyways.

    I don't get to Buckwallow very much so I can't comment on how the organizers are doing up there. It's probable racers are still damaging things, riding in the soping wet, cutting corners or blowing them, widening the trails with stupid passes, skidding and etc times a hundred. Given that nobody hikes buckwallow and the terrain is quite rocky i think there is likely a ceiling on the destruction and muddying of our image - unlike events like Albion where we share.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    i give it a d-

    nothing worse then leaving up your race tape with your name all over it in a forest tract. make an effort to clean up all the plastic please...



    by the way we did haul out what we could fit in our packs...
    Chico should pay people a dollar, perhaps more, per foot for the return of his tape. Either that or we call the bylaw officer and see about a littering/dumping fine.

    How many bar wrappers and empty powershots tips/bottoms did you find?

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Actually, there is. Think NASCAR in the woods. Though I think it would be pretty fun if they used a short enough track and turned it into bicycle derby on dirt.
    There are pump track races, they’re typically run like pursuits with riders starting on opposite sides of the track and trying to catch each other. And of course, BMX racing is a lot like a dirt-track sprint race for cars.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Chico should pay people a dollar, perhaps more, per foot for the return of his tape. Either that or we call the bylaw officer and see about a littering/dumping fine.

    How many bar wrappers and empty powershots tips/bottoms did you find?
    lots and plenty of other garbage...

    though wrappers are just a small segment of the enviromental impact. there are other issues regarding waste disposal of such scale events. what standards are being followed?
    who monitors those standards? what sanctions are in place if standards are not followed?
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  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    There are pump track races, they’re typically run like pursuits with riders starting on opposite sides of the track and trying to catch each other.
    Speaking of pump track races, if we can find one of these things at a car dealership somewhere we can do side by side pump track drag races.

    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2BDJ0JcKusM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    lots and plenty of other garbage...

    though wrappers are just a small segment of the enviromental impact. there are other issues regarding waste disposal of such scale events. what standards are being followed?
    who monitors those standards? what sanctions are in place if standards are not followed?
    What sort of density should be allowed on which sorts of soil type under what weather conditions. Obviously it isn't in the interest of the organizer to stop his event, what sort of external controls are there. I doubt the OCA and organizers have any sort of solid standard or chart on this matter to control their race's damage. How do we even measure the impact of a race on the trails, obviously we can look at Albion hills and say yep, ***** rucked that one up pretty good, but not everything is so shockingly obvious.

    Is it a good idea to just accept at face value assurances that race-proofing/race sanitizing trails is good news(they must be doing something right as raganwald said) or that it's turning our singletrack into "sidewalks" for the sake of these massive events. Sidewalk style is likely the most sustainable "singletrack", but who wants sidewalks everywhere? Is that the future if race events are involved? Perhaps each organizer's race should be audited and given a rating/certified by the IMBA or another advocacy group based on their impact to our trails.

  58. #58
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    good points electrik. the pressure to hold an event is high because after all it is a business first and money has to be made. while there is nothing wrong with making money. but on conservation land the goal to make money in the short term does not trump policies and communities. there in lies a conflict of interest in my opinion. the greed of the short term creates long lasting problems and blinds us to the benefits of the long term (and the long term has the better payout). there are many examples of forward thinking long term park planners in canada and elsewhere whose foresight has benefited the communties a million fold both economically and environmentally.

    this long term view can be applied to trails for mountain biking and other uses. for example in albion hills was a mtb/multi use trial built through the area not for racing but to enjoy the outdoors, technical skills, and to create a connecting route between the palgrave and bolton tract. i can say no because short term gain has trumped a long term benefit. a lot of resources where wasted that could have benefited a wide variety of stakeholders in the greater toronto area. it also created hostilities here (just look at this and past threads/posts) and with the hvhta/bta.

    i think it is important to stop making these mistakes, time to move on and build trail for the future. my suggestion is to follow the same model that is being used in other land tracts. the racers should be included on some of the trails but not all, nor should any one group have total control of the land track. it should be reflective of the communities.






    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    What sort of density should be allowed on which sorts of soil type under what weather conditions. Obviously it isn't in the interest of the organizer to stop his event, what sort of external controls are there. I doubt the OCA and organizers have any sort of solid standard or chart on this matter to control their race's damage. How do we even measure the impact of a race on the trails, obviously we can look at Albion hills and say yep, ***** rucked that one up pretty good, but not everything is so shockingly obvious.

    Is it a good idea to just accept at face value assurances that race-proofing/race sanitizing trails is good news(they must be doing something right as raganwald said) or that it's turning our singletrack into "sidewalks" for the sake of these massive events. Sidewalk style is likely the most sustainable "singletrack", but who wants sidewalks everywhere? Is that the future if race events are involved? Perhaps each organizer's race should be audited and given a rating/certified by the IMBA or another advocacy group based on their impact to our trails.
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  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    i give it a d-

    nothing worse then leaving up your race tape with your name all over it in a forest tract. make an effort to clean up all the plastic please...



    by the way we did haul out what we could fit in our packs...
    It most likely will fill your heart with a very deep warmth that i honestly appreciate your custodian efforts throught these magnificent trails we all enjoy, the dufferin tract.

    i certainly dont pick up trail trash as much as i should, even if i did...i dont think i could be such a ******' to call someone out on the internet for a mistake....congratulations on becoming a trail sanitation angel!!!

    with regards to you just recently turning over a new leaf this past fall...would your garbage filled packs included any of the assorted empty tall beer cans which have in the past 6+ years, and continue today litter the forest floor at the trail head to 'old milwaukee'. the trail you would frequent at the dufferin tract when Blue Mtn shut trails down due to weather ...curious!?!

    be a doll, tell your friends that 'you' ride with... to donate there proceeds made from their beer can empties to IMBA before your rat friend contacts by-law enforcement....

    ive always enjoyed your threads on trail destruction by means of motorized vehicles, illegal trash dumping and finger pointing at those who dont stoke your ego nor follow the cult/religion of single sprocket-oligy ect...
    interesting....your friends that build and maintain those trails in dufferin dont follow your sustainable models either...weird, no?

    though beer cans are just a small segment of the enviromental impact. there are other issues regarding waste disposal. what standards are being followed?
    who monitors those standards? what sanctions are in place if standards are not followed, when building in dufferin forest.....

    sustainable practice's achieved D-
    hypocrite A+


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  60. #60
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    so did you pick up any garbage and carry it out? nope didn't think so... have you ever picked up anything? it won't hurt to make it a habit.

    i haul trash out whenever i can, being doing so for years... in many places



    sustainable practices should be followed by everyone for all types of riding, you have no argument from me there... and it will be. it is just a matter of time as people become educated and are involved into the process. you will have more successes working together and involving all the stakeholders. by the way when blue closes i ride my 29er crosscountry bike and build enduro trail

    i also practice what i preach not only on the small scale in my community. but also developing recycling and bio remediation systems for large scale contamination problems.

    i do dislike atv's in the tracts around the humber as the amount of destruction they cause is unreal in this setting. lately they been cutting fences and busting down gates. there is also the issue of poaching deer in the area (but that's a whole other topic). by the way the offroad vehicle club i belong to (yes i have an offroad vehicle) hauls out trash from the trails as well as helps atv/snowmobile clubs maintain their trails on mnr lands. some good people there.

    anyway, like it or not what you call "single sprocket-oligy" is happening, works well and we shall see more of it.

    to answer your question about waste:

    "what standards are being followed?"

    i suggest you review this: Waste Diversion Ontario (WDO)

    i think you don't understand what the term hypocrite means...

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  61. #61
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    This thread is going no where productive, so I'd like to propose a new drinking game instead.

    Every time someone writes:

    * Long term
    * Sustainable
    * Standards
    * Plan
    * Process
    * Environment
    * Trail Work

    ... take a drink.

    Every time singlesprocket uses the word "stakeholder", take two drinks.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Firstly i'm glad a guy like you, who is too big for the little races and compares himself to a multi-million dollar NHL athlete took the time to comment. It is true I don't ride a lot of o-cup courses - Out of the options you get, why anybody would chose to ride 'em is beyond me because they're pure snore. If I wanted a parking lot crit series i'd go to one... a lot less mileage on the vehicle.
    Sorry, I was describing the nature and duration of my injury rather than comparing myself to Crosby in terms of athletic potential. I can see how that would be interpreted both ways.

    And there are NO little races around here for me to be too big for. The closest are 5 hrs away in Barrie. I agree that some of the o-cup courses are pretty tame, but I still have fun
    Last edited by oshaden; 02-06-2012 at 07:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ray.vermette View Post
    This thread is going no where productive, so I'd like to propose a new drinking game instead.

    Every time someone writes:

    * Long term
    * Sustainable
    * Standards
    * Plan
    * Process
    * Environment
    * Trail Work

    ... take a drink.

    Every time singlesprocket uses the word "stakeholder", take two drinks.
    I am trying the drinking game. it's 10.30 in the morning and I am too typed to drunk
    Strava made me do it....

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by ray.vermette View Post
    This thread is going no where productive, so I'd like to propose a new drinking game instead.

    Every time someone writes:

    * Long term
    * Sustainable
    * Standards
    * Plan
    * Process
    * Environment
    * Trail Work

    ... take a drink.

    Every time singlesprocket uses the word "stakeholder", take two drinks.
    It starts pretty tame, but they you run into a wall of "trail work." Just when you think you are past the worst of it, singlesprocket goes and uses "standards" in three consecutive sentences.
    When under pressure, your level of performance will sink to your level of preparation.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkj__ View Post
    It starts pretty tame, but they you run into a wall of "trail work." Just when you think you are past the worst of it, singlesprocket goes and uses "standards" in three consecutive sentences.
    Oh great, just what I need after the excesses of a fantastic Super Bowl: a drinking game! Urp!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ray.vermette View Post
    This thread is going no where productive, so I'd like to propose a new drinking game instead.

    Every time someone writes:

    * Long term
    * Sustainable
    * Standards
    * Plan
    * Process
    * Environment
    * Trail Work

    ... take a drink.

    Every time singlesprocket uses the word "stakeholder", take two drinks.
    You forgot Insular.


    And I've been at it since 8am.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    You forgot Insular.

    And I've been at it since 8am.
    Insular was not mentioned in this thread until you brought it up. But, it's here now, so go ahead, have another drink.
    When under pressure, your level of performance will sink to your level of preparation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rkj__ View Post
    Insular was not mentioned in this thread until you brought it up. But, it's here now, so go ahead, have another drink.
    Way ahead of you Steakholder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Way ahead of you Steakholder.
    mmmm... steak... holding.

    When under pressure, your level of performance will sink to your level of preparation.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Way ahead of you Steakholder.
    I don't think this counts for any drinks.
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  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    I don't think this counts for any drinks.
    Your standards are to high and therefore not sustainable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Your standards are to high and therefore not sustainable.
    I like your plan in the long term but I worry that the process is all wrong in this environment.
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    I like your plan in the long term but I worry that the process is all wrong in this environment.
    The problem isn't the environment. It is the Stakeholders being insular which requires one to have multiple plans to remain sustainable.

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    Good thread, difficult topic. +1 for the ideas as sketched out above:

    1. trail work donated by race organizers is not proactive but rather limited primarily to damage control.

    2. individual riders should find a way to put back in, which would supplement the efforts of the race organizers.

    So 1+2 should give a reasonably sustainable model as far as organized racing at environmentally sensitive venues goes. Most people on this forum are obviously pretty engaged, but I'm guessing the majority of the Ocup/OCA membership contributes nothing on an individual basis.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kay. View Post
    ...I'm guessing the majority of the Ocup/OCA membership contributes nothing on an individual basis.
    Probably correct, but if we're playing the guessing game then I'll venture to say that the ratio would be no different when looking at riders who don't do any racing. Actually, that's more than a guess.

    There's no checks and balances, or standards among non-racers either to make sure that the impact they have on the trails (every rider causes change/damage to a trail every time it is ridden) is balanced off by their trail building and maintenance activities.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Probably correct, but if we're playing the guessing game then I'll venture to say that the ratio would be no different when looking at riders who don't do any racing. Actually, that's more than a guess.
    In most sports under 19 it's not the racers who do any work it's the parents. Go to any ski race in Canada this winter for racers 19 and under. Go check out the Whistler Cup. All the volunteer hours come from parents.

    Let's call it what it really is.. volunteer hours.

    To answer Capt Sydor's post earlier. It doesn't matter how you give your volunteer hours. Especially when it comes to parents those hours shift especially as their kids get older and do their sports. At a certain point you only have so much to give and your priority for those hours of volunteer hours should be to aid your kids endeavours. Like my dad when I raced all his volunteering became helping at the races. It's once we moved on that he started doing more stuff geared towards his interests. This is as it should be.

    To expect people to meet some decreed standard set by someone from his glass pedestal is self righteous and drives people away.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    To expect people to meet some... standard... drives people away.
    I've met an awful lot of mountain bikers over the years, many of whom do some racing, and a larger number who will probably never participate in a race. I'd peg the number at a rough 10% who put volunteer input in (various forms) what they take out of the activity.

    Should we limit participation in mountain biking to that 10% and tell the other 90% they they are banned from participating in the activity? We can try to educate the other 90%, and provide opportunities for them to get involved, but in the end I'd rather have the participation of those other 90% even if they choose give nothing back in return in the formal sense.

    Who knows? Maybe they put in volunteer work in some other activity? (that I may benefit from)

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Probably correct, but if we're playing the guessing game then I'll venture to say that the ratio would be no different when looking at riders who don't do any racing. Actually, that's more than a guess.

    There's no checks and balances, or standards among non-racers either to make sure that the impact they have on the trails (every rider causes change/damage to a trail every time it is ridden) is balanced off by their trail building and maintenance activities.
    actually there is (ie http://trca.on.ca/dotAsset/93415.pdf and many more), except where they are exclude from the process even though they are the largest users as you say. this was a mistake/oversight done in the past and that i see steps being taken to rectify it. of course people here don't like to be called out on their behavoir and they respond in a childish derogatory manner rather then engage meaningful discussion as can be seen in this thread. this paints the race community in a very bad light.
    Last edited by singlesprocket; 02-06-2012 at 07:09 PM.
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  79. #79
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    this is not about sking in whistler. this is about the county/town forest tract trails in eastern canada with focus on southern ontario conservation properties and fair use/responsibility of all stakeholders. once again "standards" will be implemented by the conservation authorities based on their mandates as they already do for land use, construction and other projects.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    In most sports under 19 it's not the racers who do any work it's the parents. Go to any ski race in Canada this winter for racers 19 ans a d under. Go check out the Whistler Cup. All the volunteer hours come from parents.

    Let's call it what it really is.. volunteer hours.

    To answer Capt Sydor's post earlier. It doesn't matter how you give your volunteer hours. Especially when it comes to parents those hours shift especially as their kids get older and do their sports. At a certain point you only have so much to give and your priority for those hours of volunteer hours should be to aid your kids endeavours. Like my dad when I raced all his volunteering became helping at the races. It's once we moved on that he started doing more stuff geared towards his interests. This is as it should be.

    To expect people to meet some decreed standard set by someone from his glass pedestal is self righteous and drives people away.
    broadcasting from
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  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    Read it - has nothing to do with checks and balances on individual users.

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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    stakeholders... "standards"
    ...takes three drinks...
    When under pressure, your level of performance will sink to your level of preparation.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Read it - has nothing to do with checks and balances on individual users.
    watershed management strategies are all about "check and balances" of individual users/groups

    "The management plan for the BRMT will address property
    management and public safety issues, respond to future
    demands and growth in the region, integrate and implement
    Humber River watershed management strategies, establish
    appropriate environmental protection and restoration
    techniques, receive public input regarding appropriate use,
    development and management of lands, and create a sense
    of stewardship among users and adjacent land owners. It will
    guide the management of the property for years to come,
    helping TRCA achieve its goal for the Living City - a vision for
    healthy communities based on a healthy ecosystem."
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  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    In most sports under 19 it's not the racers who do any work it's the parents.
    One interesting fact about cycling in Ontario is that license holders and racers are very heavily weighted toward the Masters demographic. When we had our Road Organizers meeting on Sunday, the guys from the OCA were describing how that aspect of our sport is almost completely upside-down compared to all the other Associations in Sport Alliance Ontario.
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  84. #84
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    No use continuing this line of dialogue. We're talking about 2 completely different things. The issue I raise cannot be contained within a TRCA document or management strategy.

    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    watershed management strategies are all about "check and balances" of individual users/groups

    "The management plan for the BRMT will address property
    management and public safety issues, respond to future
    demands and growth in the region, integrate and implement
    Humber River watershed management strategies, establish
    appropriate environmental protection and restoration
    techniques, receive public input regarding appropriate use,
    development and management of lands, and create a sense
    of stewardship among users and adjacent land owners. It will
    guide the management of the property for years to come,
    helping TRCA achieve its goal for the Living City - a vision for
    healthy communities based on a healthy ecosystem."

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    No use continuing this line of dialogue. We're talking about 2 completely different things. The issue I raise cannot be contained within a TRCA document or management strategy.
    not really, great efforts are being made to involve/educate stakeholders to become involved in the missing stewardship you speak of. though it involves the whole spectrum of users and deals with a large spectrum of issues within the communties involved.
    Sustainable Neighbourhood Retrofit Action Plan you might not see the connection of trails in these plans, but the connection is there and will grow.
    Last edited by singlesprocket; 02-06-2012 at 07:43 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    One interesting fact about cycling in Ontario is that license holders and racers are very heavily weighted toward the Masters demographic. When we had our Road Organizers meeting on Sunday, the guys from the OCA were describing how that aspect of our sport is almost completely upside-down compared to all the other Associations in Sport Alliance Ontario.
    It's more then that. Looking at WMSC my old club. Parents did work but it wasn't just them. Us racers still where required to help with tear down and so on. We all where required to attend both the Vancouver and Whistler Ski show to put in labour hours. This wasn't a requirement from Alpine BC it was demanded by the club.

    To put in cycling terms.. it would be like Lapdogs requiring everyone to put time in at both Toronto bike shows. If not you would get shite on big time.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Who knows? Maybe they put in volunteer work in some other activity? (that I may benefit from)
    As I mentioned earlier Circlip..being a Weasel has pretty much ruined my views of all this.

    In 10 years of being involved with the Weasls at Whistler I shudder to think the man hours we all put in over the years. The countless sleep deprived days and thousands of pounds of fertilizer we spread on the run. The miles of fencing and the ever popular Shovel the snow off the course with it's mate shovel the snow on the course.

    When I think of the work we have done it would crush most here.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    It's more then that. Looking at WMSC my old club. Parents did work but it wasn't just them. Us racers still where required to help with tear down and so on. We all where required to attend both the Vancouver and Whistler Ski show to put in labour hours. This wasn't a requirement from Alpine BC it was demanded by the club.

    To put in cycling terms.. it would be like Lapdogs requiring everyone to put time in at both Toronto bike shows. If not you would get shite on big time.
    It's a good model in theory - lots to be learned from other bodies of experience (geographical or activity) rather than thinking only inside of a limited bubble. The problem is that if we're examining all participants in the activity of mountain biking who have an impact on the trail, the majority are basic individuals who are not affiliated with any organization, nor do they race, and therefore we have no idea if they contribute an inputs of trail work or other volunteer activities.

    On this forum we have many people who do some racing, and many people who don't. If we generalize I believe the posters of this forum are motivated community members more likely to contribute volunteer time in any number various ways than the average joe mountain biker who participates in much more peripheral fashion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Read it - has nothing to do with checks and balances on individual users.
    Your plan for pushing rope is not sustainable. And is insular in regards to other Stakeholders.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Your plan for pushing rope is not sustainable
    I beg to differ. Rope in bucket of water, straighten rope, freeze overnight, done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    It's a good model in theory - lots to be learned from other bodies of experience (geographical or activity) rather than thinking only inside of a limited bubble. The problem is that if we're examining all participants in the activity of mountain biking who have an impact on the trail, the majority are basic individuals who are not affiliated with any organization, nor do they race, and therefore we have no idea if they contribute an inputs of trail work or other volunteer activities.
    Since we made the move to regular builds at 9AM every Saturday, we've had a great uptake in participation from just this sort of rider. The timing is perfect because this is exactly when this type of person is out riding.

    So far, I'd say the biggest barrier to getting this type of rider to pitch in isn't unwillingness (quite the contrary, in fact) but a basic ignorance of how to get involved.

    "I love these trails but I didn't know who was building them!" Is a typical response (usually followed by a question about whether we have permission to build them... ). We've done some work with leaflets and such but the biggest payoff has come from just being out there when people are using the trails.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post

    To put in cycling terms.. it would be like Lapdogs requiring everyone to put time in at both Toronto bike shows. If not you would get shite on big time.
    Members of the Lapdogs race team are expected to volunteer at a minimum of one club activity a season, and lead at least one group ride. And as far as I can tell, everyone on the race team is completely fine with this.
    Strava made me do it....

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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    One interesting fact about cycling in Ontario is that license holders and racers are very heavily weighted toward the Masters demographic. When we had our Road Organizers meeting on Sunday, the guys from the OCA were describing how that aspect of our sport is almost completely upside-down compared to all the other Associations in Sport Alliance Ontario.
    This is because cycling is like triathlon you don't have to be a member of a club to get a race license. When I spent 3 months in Sydney Australia through a girl I knew spent time with the Cronulla Triathlon club. It was really an eye opener it potential for gettuing people involved. Over there you want to race tri or a mountain bike race you have to have a race license. But here is the catch.. the only way you can get a race license is if you are part of a club.

    There is no option to pay the state or for us provincial governing body as a individual. You have to find a club near you and go through them. You become a member of the club and through that get your license. And everybody gets involved.





    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued View Post
    Members of the Lapdogs race team are expected to volunteer at a minimum of one club activity a season, and lead at least one group ride. And as far as I can tell, everyone on the race team is completely fine with this.
    What I saw with the Cronulla crew.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    I've met an awful lot of mountain bikers over the years, many of whom do some racing, and a larger number who will probably never participate in a race. I'd peg the number at a rough 10% who put volunteer input in (various forms) what they take out of the activity.

    Should we limit participation in mountain biking to that 10% and tell the other 90% they they are banned from participating in the activity?
    I’m not taking a side, but I would suggest that if participation is limited to those who put something back in, it shouldn’t be called “volunteerism,” it’s “sharing” or “coöperation."

    What makes volunteerism volunteerism is the cheerful thought that you are doing something for the 90% who will simply enjoy it without contributions of their own.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    I’m not taking a side, but I would suggest that if participation is limited to those who put something back in, it shouldn’t be called “volunteerism,” it’s “sharing” or “coöperation."

    What makes volunteerism volunteerism is the cheerful thought that you are doing something for the 90% who will simply enjoy it without contributions of their own.
    Agreed on all points.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Your plan for pushing rope is not sustainable. And is insular in regards to other Stakeholders.
    ...takes 3 drinks. (Stakeholders doesn't count in this context).

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    Getting serious for a moment.... I like the idea of having each CCA/OCA mtb competitor put in 1 day of trail work as a requirement of membership renewal. Kind of like the volunteer hours requirement for high school students in Ontario.

    I realize we all have lives, jobs, school, kids, priorities, commitments, whatever, and we all contribute to mountain biking in different ways, but if each competitor can't put in 1 day of trail work out of 365 days, but can find time to drive hundreds of miles to attend several races, something's not right.

    I expect the additional maintenance effort from such a plan would not contribute much overall in the big scheme of things, but I'd hope that the participants would at least come away from it having a much better appreciation of all the work that goes into building and maintaining trails.

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    One interesting fact about cycling in Ontario is that license holders and racers are very heavily weighted toward the Masters demographic.
    After consultation with my advisor's we have developed a new race plan in the area of sausage suit bike racing. We will now be following the Jimmy Georgas plan. The Jimmy Georgas plan is where you start racing at 55 when everyone else is starting to retire. Therefore you then have a sustainable model for continous age group podiums.

    Master's racing under 60 is not sustainable if one wants to have a sustainable sand bagging goal that involves less Stakeholders in said age group.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by ray.vermette View Post
    I realize we all have lives, jobs, school, kids, priorities, commitments, whatever, and we all contribute to mountain biking in different ways, but if each competitor can't put in 1 day of trail work out of 365 days, but can find time to drive hundreds of miles to attend several races, something's not right.
    The problem is there isn't organized trail work done 365 days a year. It's usually done over a couple of weekends in the Spring and then a couple of weekends in the Fall. If you're busy during that time you missed out on being able to do trailwork.

  100. #100
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    Who says the work has to be part of an organized trail day? We have high school students that fulfill their volunteer hours requirement by cutting back brush or picking up garbage in our local trail network on their own time, when it's convenient for them.

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