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  1. #1
    namagomi
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    Racing and Trail Maintenance

    Buckwallow? Crap.

    Now will come the OCA xc trail cleaning/29r prep squad.

  2. #2
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkj__ View Post
    Huh? Chico / OCA has been running races at Buckwallow for years, without screwing it up.
    Really the ocup was there? Haha, sorry...

  3. #3
    bi-winning
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Buckwallow? Crap.

    Now will come the OCA xc trail cleaning/29r prep squad.
    Huh? Chico / OCA has been running races at Buckwallow for years, without screwing it up.
    When under pressure, your level of performance will sink to your level of preparation.


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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Really the ocup was there? Haha, sorry...
    Can't tell if serious...

    Anyhow, here's this year's O-Cup Thread. My favourite course every year!
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  5. #5
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    Can't tell if serious...

    Anyhow, here's this year's O-Cup Thread. My favourite course every year!
    I know it's shocking that I wouldn't have been racing xc@ocup, but that stuff isn't on my radar at all. Last O-cup series I was invited to was over a decade ago.

  6. #6
    Ms. Monster
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I know it's shocking that I wouldn't have been racing xc@ocup, but that stuff isn't on my radar at all. Last O-cup series I was invited to was over a decade ago.
    Well, if that's what it takes, I officially invite you.

  7. #7
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    Well, if that's what it takes, I officially invite you.
    Hehe, thanks Nerdgirl! Team Monster? What I meant was invited by a coach from a team. I don't even know how the series works if you're reg an individual class or what the skinny is. If i get the urge i'm sure the info is on oca's site.

    I was having visions of people with "cleaning" up do drop and weasel.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I know it's shocking that I wouldn't have been racing xc@ocup, but that stuff isn't on my radar at all. Last O-cup series I was invited to was over a decade ago.
    Why not just admit that you could not race an o-cup?. All this posturing and the "invited to an o-cup" remark are a bit too much, don't you think?
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  9. #9
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious View Post
    Why not just admit that you could not race an o-cup?. All this posturing and the "invited to an o-cup" remark are a bit too much, don't you think?
    Ooohh.. lol.


  10. #10
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor View Post
    Must not stop and eat blueberries while racing.
    You can't eat plastic trophies, can you? Better pick those blueberries while you can.

    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Thanks for the replies! Obviously Chico and the OCA must be doing something right, because plenty of people show up for these races. Good luck to everyone, have a great season!!


    If they're doing something right for mtb it sure isn't registering on my radar. In fact I think they do some harm since trail closures result after they've been by. Unless you mean what is popular is right, but if that is the case don't bother responding!

  11. #11
    Evil Jr.
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    In fact I think they do some harm since trail closures result after they've been by.
    Examples?

    I know some trails in Albion have been closed and/or rerouted but those trails needed work anyhow. I can't think of anything else.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    If they're doing something right for mtb it sure isn't registering on my radar. In fact I think they do some harm since trail closures result after they've been by. Unless you mean what is popular is right, but if that is the case don't bother responding!
    I was diplomatically easing my way out of the conversation! I asked why the scheduled races were in such-and-such a format, and that seemed to be somewhat on-topic. Debating whether they should be in that same format is something Iíll save for another thread

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    If they're doing something right for mtb it sure isn't registering on my radar. In fact I think they do some harm since trail closures result after they've been by. Unless you mean what is popular is right, but if that is the case don't bother responding!
    To some mountain biking is like religion, if you don't follow their prescribed ideals of the sport you are wrong. Truly our sport's biggest problem is within.

    There are very few invdividuals involved with mountain biking, and a lot more with sports like golf. If we could multiply by 10 all the people doing something for this sport - whether it is riding areas, trail building, events or riding clinics - there would be more opportunity for everyone to enjoy the sport. Racer, freerider, dirt jumper, dh or any combo - the more the better in my opinion as long as they are positive influences.

    Stay positive and the best to everyone Look forward to seeing many of you this season.

  14. #14
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    Examples?

    I know some trails in Albion have been closed and/or rerouted but those trails needed work anyhow. I can't think of anything else.
    Yup, Albion is one and i am thinking of others that have to be closed afterwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by chicoracing View Post
    To some mountain biking is like religion, if you don't follow their prescribed ideals of the sport you are wrong. Truly our sport's biggest problem is within.

    There are very few invdividuals involved with mountain biking, and a lot more with sports like golf. If we could multiply by 10 all the people doing something for this sport - whether it is riding areas, trail building, events or riding clinics - there would be more opportunity for everyone to enjoy the sport. Racer, freerider, dirt jumper, dh or any combo - the more the better in my opinion as long as they are positive influences.

    Stay positive and the best to everyone Look forward to seeing many of you this season.
    Whose religion though Chicoracing - certainly you must realize we're diverse and that we don't worship the same gods.

    I think it's pretty simple math to me that trails get damaged and some closed when these races are held. It leaves a bad picture in the eyes of other people and maybe some doubt in those who partook in the festivity. The latest bit of evidence for this idea came from the Copeland meeting. Almost nobody at the meeting wanted any racing events there.

    I'm also not buying this idea that Chico Racing, OCA or UCI expands our sport. That is a bit self serving. To me it is more like they harness what is already out there and for that they should be grateful there are organisations like the IMBA and countless small ones doing the grassroots level development.

    I'm not saying racing sucks or something, it is fun to goto a big party with your friends, but anybody who has had one at their home knows what it looks like the morning after and what your neighbours will think of you.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    If they're doing something right for mtb it sure isn't registering on my radar. In fact I think they do some harm since trail closures result after they've been by. Unless you mean what is popular is right, but if that is the case don't bother responding!





    Quote Originally Posted by afalts View Post
    No need to follow suit with triathlons where just about everyone can be a 'winner' if they choose the right class
    As the Eastern sections resident relapsed Tri Geek. And having competed in events here in Ontario after moving out here it was suggested to me that I should check Clyde on my race entries. By of all people my wife. Nope.. I'm old school triathlon. If you are in my age group I'm beating your arse with sheer hard work. When I'm in full Tri Racerhead mode I'm not known for low mileage.



    If you haven't puked at the finish line you are not going hard enough.

  16. #16
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Well, I haven't run around with a tire tied to me or cooked little children in a stew. So I guess there are no good options!

    If you, instead of Chico, want to explain how hosting a race happens at a venue that can't exist because the management now excludes bicycles and consequently now there are fewer people who've ridden a bicycle off-road then go ahead. However, I think a donation to IMBA is a better answer. Physically supporting your local mtb trail maintenance crew better... However too few do that, in fact some think just because you enter a race you've covered everything or the race organizer has and that is usually pretty far from the truth. This idea is why i commented on raganwald's statement about these various organizations doing something right(i think he meant popular), as if something popular couldn't be making some problems for others and themselves.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Well, I haven't run around with a tire tied to me or cooked little children in a stew. So I guess there are no good options!

    If you, instead of Chico, want to explain how hosting a race happens at a venue that can't exist because the management now excludes bicycles and consequently now there are fewer people who've ridden a bicycle off-road then go ahead. However, I think a donation to IMBA is a better answer. Physically supporting your local mtb trail maintenance crew better... However too few do that, in fact some think just because you enter a race you've covered everything or the race organizer has and that is usually pretty far from the truth. This idea is why i commented on raganwald's statement about these various organizations doing something right(i think he meant popular), as if something popular couldn't be making some problems for others and themselves.
    Why would I waste any further time discussing stuff like this with you? You in the last year have proven numerous times how unless we all follow how you think we are all stupid. Just look at the whole bike lane threads and how you pretty much said we are all stupid because we don't buy your views hook line and sinker. How about all the trolling you have been doing in a certain seatpost thread?

    Your as bad as the religious zealots.


    There is better things to do like training then to discuss anything like this with you further. Go a head and neg rep me all you want. All it does is motivates me even more.
    Last edited by Enduramil; 01-30-2012 at 05:08 PM.

  18. #18
    humber river advocate
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    yeah the trails in albion... it is viewed as damage control now... as long as the races are kept there and don't spread out. the trails can be brought back though, but that won't happen unless a equable trail plan is developed which involves the watershed committees and anyone else who is interested. will happen eventually, as well as standards of accountability.

    on the plus side the network of trails is expanding with a some very forward thinking people in the trca, solid trail plans, diverse volunteers and the softening of the anti mtb crowd.


    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Yup, Albion is one and i am thinking of others that have to be closed afterwards.



    Whose religion though Chicoracing - certainly you must realize we're diverse and that we don't worship the same gods.

    I think it's pretty simple math to me that trails get damaged and some closed when these races are held. It leaves a bad picture in the eyes of other people and maybe some doubt in those who partook in the festivity. The latest bit of evidence for this idea came from the Copeland meeting. Almost nobody at the meeting wanted any racing events there.

    I'm also not buying this idea that Chico Racing, OCA or UCI expands our sport. That is a bit self serving. To me it is more like they harness what is already out there and for that they should be grateful there are organisations like the IMBA and countless small ones doing the grassroots level development.

    I'm not saying racing sucks or something, it is fun to goto a big party with your friends, but anybody who has had one at their home knows what it looks like the morning after and what your neighbours will think of you.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I think it's pretty simple math to me that trails get damaged and some closed when these races are held. It leaves a bad picture in the eyes of other people and maybe some doubt in those who partook in the festivity. The latest bit of evidence for this idea came from the Copeland meeting. Almost nobody at the meeting wanted any racing events there.
    Gee, could that be because most of the current trails at Copeland aren't suitable for racing? And furthermore, the character of the trails would be quite a bit different if they were built to handle racing, a change which the locals probably won't be happy with.

    Which isn't to say you can't have a race there, because in the old days there was an XC and DH race at the Heights of Horseshoe every year. Those trails were built to handle hundreds of racers turning laps on them all day, and they're rather different from the current trails in Copeland.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Yup, Albion is one and i am thinking of others that have to be closed afterwards.
    If I am not mistaken the trail at Albion was closed after a 24 hour race, not an O-cup for what that is worth.

    Thus, I believe this to be OT and have deleted the rest of the argument I was about to start as to not further derail it.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by veteran_youth View Post

    Thus, I believe this to be OT and have deleted the rest of the argument I was about to start as to not further derail it.
    So.. Maki. How's your winter run training going?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I think it's pretty simple math to me that trails get damaged and some closed when these races are held. It leaves a bad picture in the eyes of other people and maybe some doubt in those who partook in the festivity. The latest bit of evidence for this idea came from the Copeland meeting. Almost nobody at the meeting wanted any racing events there.

    I'm also not buying this idea that Chico Racing, OCA or UCI expands our sport. That is a bit self serving. To me it is more like they harness what is already out there and for that they should be grateful there are organisations like the IMBA and countless small ones doing the grassroots level development.
    First off IMBA is great, however their development of singletrack and trails is quite recent in Ontario. I am proud that Chico Racing helped initiate many trail systems including the original singletrack at Durham Forest, Ganaraska, Dagmar (RIP), Albion Hills Conservation Area, Haliburton Forest, and Woodnewton (private granted). Racing is a significant source of mountain bike revenue for places like Buckwallow, Albion Hills, Boler Mountain, Duntroon and Hardwood Ski & Bike. Without that revenue it would definitely be harder for those spots to operate mountain biking.

    Electrik I actually agree with you that some race organizers don't put anything into the trails. That hasn't been the history for Chico Racing as we have helped to support many mountain bike venues and assisted to create many more.

    Albion Hills Conservation didn't have any singletrack prior us coming there. Had we not shown Albion a business case for mountain biking it probably would never have existed.

    We have injected thousands of hours into mountain bike venues over the years. When we had to shut down Albion Hills after a 24 hour event we came up with a plan to fix the trails and make them better. The trails at Albion Hills have improved greatly over the last few years, as well as their sustainability.

    Mountain bike trail development in Ontario is pretty much all grassroots. It doesn't matter if its' IMBA, Chico, DMBA, Hardwood or Mike.

    There is no perfect trail system, but perhaps the best in Ontario is Buckwallow IMHO. Mike has experience, knowledge of the drainage and materials he has, plus he puts his life into that venue. And his trail plan is in his head.

  23. #23
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    yeah the trails in albion... it is viewed as damage control now... as long as the races are kept there and don't spread out. the trails can be brought back though, but that won't happen unless a equable trail plan is developed which involves the watershed committees and anyone else who is interested. will happen eventually, as well as standards of accountability.

    on the plus side the network of trails is expanding with a some very forward thinking people in the trca, solid trail plans, diverse volunteers and the softening of the anti mtb crowd.
    I think incidents like that strike a blow against our relations with other conservation/outdoor communities. - Even if they only happen once. The pictures and stories are out there and all they have todo is say - look, don't you see mountain bikers destroy. I'm sure on the race circuit courses it's a bit different, but frumpy outsiders choose to see that damage instead of the truth when try get us banned from places outside the race circuit.

    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Gee, could that be because most of the current trails at Copeland aren't suitable for racing? And furthermore, the character of the trails would be quite a bit different if they were built to handle racing, a change which the locals probably won't be happy with.

    Which isn't to say you can't have a race there, because in the old days there was an XC and DH race at the Heights of Horseshoe every year. Those trails were built to handle hundreds of racers turning laps on them all day, and they're rather different from the current trails in Copeland.
    Yes they likely aren't tough enough, but that alone wouldn't stop somebody from organizing a race there which is why I assume the point was raised.

    Quote Originally Posted by chicoracing View Post
    First off IMBA is great, however their development of singletrack and trails is quite recent in Ontario. I am proud that Chico Racing helped initiate many trail systems including the original singletrack at Durham Forest, Ganaraska, Dagmar (RIP), Albion Hills Conservation Area, Haliburton Forest, and Woodnewton (private granted). Racing is a significant source of mountain bike revenue for places like Buckwallow, Albion Hills, Boler Mountain, Duntroon and Hardwood Ski & Bike. Without that revenue it would definitely be harder for those spots to operate mountain biking.

    Electrik I actually agree with you that some race organizers don't put anything into the trails. That hasn't been the history for Chico Racing as we have helped to support many mountain bike venues and assisted to create many more.

    Albion Hills Conservation didn't have any singletrack prior us coming there. Had we not shown Albion a business case for mountain biking it probably would never have existed.

    We have injected thousands of hours into mountain bike venues over the years. When we had to shut down Albion Hills after a 24 hour event we came up with a plan to fix the trails and make them better. The trails at Albion Hills have improved greatly over the last few years, as well as their sustainability.

    Mountain bike trail development in Ontario is pretty much all grassroots. It doesn't matter if its' IMBA, Chico, DMBA, Hardwood or Mike.

    There is no perfect trail system, but perhaps the best in Ontario is Buckwallow IMHO. Mike has experience, knowledge of the drainage and materials he has, plus he puts his life into that venue. And his trail plan is in his head.
    Yes IMBA is new in town and I am hoping for big things, but I am also not under the illusion that anybody besides the local crew still does the majority of the work on a trail. I am unsure of the degree to which Chico racing helped initiate the trail networks at those places, but I don't doubt they've been involved. Thank you for that.

    I am sure you worked those man hours, but they are also hours that are spent negating race damage and trying to race "proof" things. It is definitely a different flavour of trail maintenance. As somebody who doesn't race a lot, I have trouble seeing past that claim regarding such repair and trail cutting as being something altruistically motivated for mtbrs at large and not just for the racing community. This is probably the largest difference between the race organizers, OCA, UCI and the IMBA crews. It is why i'm somewhat excited about IMBA because they have a different model and possess different skills to further mtb writ large, not just towards the racing end. I'm not saying Chico doesn't have some of those skills or couldn't change, but their operating model is(i assume) basically organized around racing.

    I'm not singling out Chico and I don't keep a ranking or count of which race leaves the most course tape, gel shots and dead newts(or whatever treehuggers are on about this week). My concern there isn't that mountain bikers are actually ruining things anymore than a hiker does, but that we'll get a rep as bad house guests from large events and end up ghettoized into little resorts which would suck because we're totally sustainable at large on any sort of trail. I'm not trying to imply that trail damage can't happen, but that it typically requires the condition of a high volumes of riders in a short period of time - i.e. a race or event. Maybe you can see that coming only from the trail/conservation perspective, large racing events are a mixed blessing. These mixed blessings are why I object to the idea that because a race gets lots of mtbr together at once or is popular that it's downright good news. There is a price to pay and i'm sure you do your best to offset it, but nobody is perfect.

    Anyway, I know looots of people enjoy o-cup and 24hrs events, but I want contestants(i am probably talking to the wrong crowd here - you guys are smart) to remember that they themselves have a responsibility to the community at large and that doing what is right isn't so simple as paying a race fee - so don't forget to donate to IMBA or some time to the local trail guys!

  24. #24
    Evil Jr.
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Yes IMBA is new in town and I am hoping for big things, but I am also not under the illusion that anybody besides the local crew still does the majority of the work on a trail.
    All I'm going to add to this is that, increasingly, IMBA = the local crew. It's true in Short Hills, Guelph and here in Hamilton, for instance. IMBA isn't some huge big organization with tons of staff (at least not in Canada). It's mostly just a group of like-minded clubs and riders working together towards a common interest.
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  25. #25
    humber river advocate
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    Quote Originally Posted by chicoracing View Post
    Albion Hills Conservation didn't have any singletrack prior us coming there. Had we not shown Albion a business case for mountain biking it probably would never have existed.
    Actually that i would say is speculation. One could also say that what was done in albion hills over the years created issues with the hvhta/bta and actually hurt mtbing in the area. After many years of hard work progress is being made despite of what went on in albion hills. I would say the past albion hills model is not the best sustainable system. Though this is changing with sustainable community programs that the trca is adopting (urban farming, naturalization, mups, snap, etc) with great success.


    Quote Originally Posted by chicoracing View Post
    We have injected thousands of hours into mountain bike venues over the years. When we had to shut down Albion Hills after a 24 hour event we came up with a plan to fix the trails and make them better. The trails at Albion Hills have improved greatly over the last few years, as well as their sustainability.

    Alot of people dedicated ten of thousands of dollars in volunteer time/materials to trials. I think this is great, keep up the good work.

    It's always a good idea to have a plan. I've talked about trail plans in the past (actually for many years). I have some questions about this trial plan. Who sat on this trial plan committee? Do you have a record of the minutes? Do you have a draft of the trial plan?
    When will this trial plan be reviewed?

    While the trials have improved for some, the trials have degraded for others. This needs to be addressed and resolved for all stakeholders.
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