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  1. #1
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    Pantani- The Accidental Death of A Cyclist

    If you hurt in your efforts and suffer painful dings. Then you are doing it right.

  2. #2
    Evil Jr.
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    It will be interesting to see how they get to the "accidental" part.
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  3. #3
    Lemmy Rules!
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    Don't know a lot about Pantani's doping scandal but it sure is interesting to see how he is being canonized while Armstrong is being vilified. Thoughts anyone?
    Strava made me do it....

  4. #4
    No. Just No. Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued View Post
    Don't know a lot about Pantani's doping scandal but it sure is interesting to see how he is being canonized while Armstrong is being vilified. Thoughts anyone?
    At the risk of opening up yet another in the endless series of Armstrong discussions across mtbr, as far as is known only one of the two publicly lied in a brazen fashion again and again, colluded with authorities and officials to achieve detection and sanction, enacted vengeance and eliminated employment opportunities in the world of cycling for anyone that dared speak out against him, used his activities in cancer awareness as a shield against any dissent, abused the same cancer awareness campaign for his own personal enrichment and even used the financial resources of that organization to make a political lobby on his behalf, made a very good attempt to completely dismantle his country's national anti-doping agency using his personal fortune to save his own skin even if it meant wiping a powerful force for fair play in sports for the entire sporting community off the map, etc. The other one was just a sports doper and recreational drug abuser. I can back all the above up with references if needed, but I assume that pretty much answers the question and at the same time created a massive run-on sentence that I will be ashamed of for all eternity.

  5. #5
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    To add to the pile, sold millions upon millions of books chock full of lies once again personally enriching himself in a massive way, used his wealth to engage in brute force legal actions that netted him millions more in personal wealth through testimony that was a complete lie.

  6. #6
    Lemmy Rules!
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    You should consider a career in the law, sir.
    Strava made me do it....

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued View Post
    Don't know a lot about Pantani's doping scandal but it sure is interesting to see how he is being canonized while Armstrong is being vilified. Thoughts anyone?
    Not counting what Circlip has posted. One also has to also take in the fact of how use of biological PED's is viewed here and North America vs Europe. Spend any time with anyone who was European meaning born, raised, and lived there. And was an athlete there. You will understand that there is a distinct difference. We have a more puritan view of sport and PED's. In Europe it is considered part of the job.
    If you hurt in your efforts and suffer painful dings. Then you are doing it right.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Not counting what Circlip has posted. One also has to also take in the fact of how use of biological PED's is viewed here and North America vs Europe. Spend any time with anyone who was European meaning born, raised, and lived there. And was an athlete there. You will understand that there is a distinct difference. We have a more puritan view of sport and PED's. In Europe it is considered part of the job.
    The so-called "European" view as you have described it sucks huge. You make it seem like it's OK because you can qualify it.

    Unlike you though I won't attribute to any specific culture or country. History has proven that cheating and lack of morals has no cultural or geographic boundaries.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    The so-called "European" view as you have described it sucks huge. You make it seem like it's OK because you can qualify it.

    Unlike you though I won't attribute to any specific culture or country. History has proven that cheating and lack of morals has no cultural or geographic boundaries.
    Never said I thought that right.

    And while it is easy to focus on the Doping angle. I think there is far more to the story of Pantani. After some conversations with a few others and stuff I have read in the last few months. I do have a suspicion that there was something lurking under the surface of Pantani. That would possibly have been there whether he raced bikes or not.

    The Accidental Death of a Cyclist | Rouleur Magazine


    Itís about stripping away the doping scandals and looking at the real human being behind it. Is it more interesting to examine the question of whether Marco Pantani took performance enhancing drugs or to explore why he had such a tragic end?

    If you decided that Marco Pantani took drugs, it doesnít explain the ending. If you decided he didnít take drugs, it certainly doesnít explain the ending.

    If you hurt in your efforts and suffer painful dings. Then you are doing it right.

  10. #10
    snowbound
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    At the risk of opening up yet another ...
    Well said Circlip.

  11. #11
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    I love docs, so I'll be watching this.

    And..."all the drugs in the world won't turn a mule into a racehorse." Merckx
    "We will call you Cygnus, the god of balance you shall be."

  12. #12
    No. Just No. Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thatshowiroll View Post
    And..."all the drugs in the world won't turn a mule into a racehorse." Merckx
    Time for the world to stop treating catchy self-serving soundbites from athletes trying to excuse, justify, or validate their actions. Mercx is a %#$*@& . Won a whole lot of races, but a %#$*@& nonetheless.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Time for the world to stop treating catchy self-serving soundbites from athletes trying to excuse, justify, or validate their actions. Mercx is a %#$*@& . Won a whole lot of races, but a %#$*@& nonetheless.
    Are you putting forth the notion that Mercx like all high performance athletes have a wee bit of a ego and maybe a chip on their shoulder. That they can be jerks and such?
    If you hurt in your efforts and suffer painful dings. Then you are doing it right.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Are you putting forth the notion that Mercx like all high performance athletes have a wee bit of a ego and maybe a chip on their shoulder. That they can be jerks and such?
    No, although that's probably true also. I'm putting forth the notion that Mercx has been a supporter of the status quo for doping in pro cycling. I wouldn't shake the guy's hand if you paid me.

  15. #15
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    Nah, that's BS. Doped or not, you still have to be a fundamentally gifted cyclist to compete at that level. To think otherwise is just naive.


    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Time for the world to stop treating catchy self-serving soundbites from athletes trying to excuse, justify, or validate their actions. Mercx is a %#$*@& . Won a whole lot of races, but a %#$*@& nonetheless.
    "We will call you Cygnus, the god of balance you shall be."

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thatshowiroll View Post
    Nah, that's BS. Doped or not, you still have to be a fundamentally gifted cyclist to compete at that level. To think otherwise is just naive.
    Where Merckx and his ilk catch followers in exactly this was with their oft repeated and very catchy donkey-racehorse schtick. In reality, no one with a tenth of a brain is suggesting that professional or elite athletes aren't more talented and gifted at their activity then the general populace as a rule of thumb. The problem is that within a group of similar talent, doping totally skews the hierarchy versus how they would stack up competitively if not doped, which is the "level playing field" fallacy that these same dopers love to cling to. There's no level playing field at all when you have;

    1. Athletes whose individual physiology reacts differently even to the exact same doping products or regimen. In other words, some athletes inherently get a bigger "boost" than others on a doping program.

    and

    2. When some athletes enjoy some measure of protection against testing and sanctions above and beyond their fellow doping athletes.

    The level playing field myth is a crock. It's not donkey versus racehorse, it's a race of racehorses with the order manipulated and managed in contravention of both the rules, and the spirit of the competition.

    Some people like to compare it to so-called professional wrestling and justify professional cycling as being a spectacle for public entertainment. The difference is that professional wrestling doesn't have an entire global community of recreational participants from children on up. If you think that doping news involving Hesjedal or other athletes doesn't have a clear linkage to making it more difficult to deliver programs to youth and recreational participants, guess again. These programs depend on variety of funding sources. Shrinkage in any of this funding from sources that aren't so sure cycling is the right place for their investment can impact the delivery of these programs to thousands of kids within your own country. Every time even a crack of daylight is given to those who justify doping in part or in whole, it's tearing down the work of others. Professional cycling doesn't exist in a bubble.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thatshowiroll View Post
    Nah, that's BS. Doped or not, you still have to be a fundamentally gifted cyclist to compete at that level. To think otherwise is just naive.
    You bring up a excellent point. Unfortunately that requires an understanding of how things where done compared to now. And to do so would require one to step out of the cycling world bubble and look at other sports. Best example would be get your hands on Speed Trap and the recent book on the subject. And would be a worthy discussion of it however it gets lost in the current rhetoric on doping.

    Uncle Oggie probably has some stories to tell.
    If you hurt in your efforts and suffer painful dings. Then you are doing it right.

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