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Thread: offroad trails

  1. #1
    humber river advocate
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    offroad trails

    i guess in the sense the trail are not on roads


    Toronto News: Rush to build bike trails results in a major disconnect - thestar.com

    wow some big bucks involved, i wonder how much $'s singletrack will see and where?
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  2. #2
    Perpetual Hack
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    With "Off-Road" seeming to mean 3.5m of Black-top, unfortunately methinks not too much....

  3. #3
    namagomi
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    So they're going to scatter $23 million into the wind because they don't want to lose the federal money.

    Anybody who is already so terrified of cycling on the road is not going to take a trail that dumps you out onto steeles or finch for 5km. Idiots need to learn that the trail must be *complete* in order for people to use it and stop procrastinating about getting to the rest later. Pack of lies. Of all the trips on that trail only the most die-hard rider is going to take 32 "trail transfers" across arterial roads(probably dumps you onto the sidewalk also) to get to the zoo. I guess people will have lots of little spots to walk their dogs.

    Off-road trails were also a priority for Mayor Rob Ford, who promised during last year’s election campaign to spend $50 million building 100 kilometres. But only $8 million is in the 2012 budget for the city’s bike infrastructure program.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Anybody who is already so terrified of cycling on the road is not going to take a trail that dumps you out onto steeles or finch for 5km. Idiots need to learn that the trail must be *complete* in order for people to use it and stop procrastinating about getting to the rest later. Pack of lies. Of all the trips on that trail only the most die-hard rider is going to take 32 "trail transfers" across arterial roads(probably dumps you onto the sidewalk also) to get to the zoo. I guess people will have lots of little spots to walk their dogs.
    Have you actually looked at the areas in question? Both hydro corridors listed from the Scarborough area already had brief paved paths 9 years ago. There was no full path only short sections. And this was in place long before Ford came to power. It was incomplete back in 2002. The only reason you lot give a sheite now is because you all want to bash Rob Ford and this is more fuel for the hate machine. You know this whole hate thing is getting old.

    When I first saw these half arsed paths in 2002 the first thing I thought was perfect place to put bike paths. All that is needed would be a controlled light at each road. But then again I'm adult enough to put aside my selfishness and see that this would benefit not just cyclist's but runners, dog walkers, and so on.

    But again it will not change the present "I hate Rob Ford for everything" Festivus of Hate. And this whole perceived "War on Bikes".

    and building a trail along the Scarborough waterfront.
    I wish them lots of luck with that idea.

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    Okay.. lock the thread please. This could get nastier.

  6. #6
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Have you actually looked at the areas in question? Both hydro corridors listed from the Scarborough area already had brief paved paths 9 years ago. There was no full path only short sections. And this was in place long before Ford came to power. It was incomplete back in 2002. The only reason you lot give a sheite now is because you all want to bash Rob Ford and this is more fuel for the hate machine. You know this whole hate thing is getting old.

    When I first saw these half arsed paths in 2002 the first thing I thought was perfect place to put bike paths. All that is needed would be a controlled light at each road. But then again I'm adult enough to put aside my selfishness and see that this would benefit not just cyclist's but runners, dog walkers, and so on.

    But again it will not change the present "I hate Rob Ford for everything" Festivus of Hate. And this whole perceived "War on Bikes".



    I wish them lots of luck with that idea.
    There is a "war" being waged by the suburb voters to get bicycles out of the city, I think that is not in question - It's how most of them voted, don't chicken out now.

    I am pissed because the city comes into $23million to make bicycle infrastructure and the city planner are going to piss it into the wind by placing trails around the city using bird shot and a map of the GTA to decide where things should go! It's **** politics and you can bet Ford will be allover this stinking mess claiming victory!

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    There is a "war" being waged by the suburb voters to get bicycles out of the city, I think that is not in question - It's how most of them voted, don't chicken out now.
    Your pissed because they are spending the money outside of Pre Amalg Toronto. And now Scarborough is getting money and new infrastructure for once. Till now the status quo has been to do the opposite.

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I am pissed because the city comes into $23million to make bicycle infrastructure and the city planner are going to piss it into the wind by placing trails around the city using bird shot and a map of the GTA to decide where things should go! It's **** politics and you can bet Ford will be allover this stinking mess claiming victory!
    If one actually looks at a Scarborough bike map they did that long before Ford came to power. But no one wants to blame Miller or previous mayors now do they. And the fact they took the money and left Scarborough with nothing for years.

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    I have the feeling that a big reason behind this trail project is the Pan Ams. And that part of the deal with hosting these games is infrastructure such as this gets built.

    Though it will be interesting to see if they actually build the waterfront component. That will be the most expensive of all. Plus the hardest to keep active as the present waterfront path last I checked was buried under a former part of the Bluffs.

  9. #9
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Your pissed because they are spending the money outside of Pre Amalg Toronto. And now Scarborough is getting money and new infrastructure for once. Till now the status quo has been to do the opposite.



    If one actually looks at a Scarborough bike map they did that long before Ford came to power. But no one wants to blame Miller or previous mayors now do they. And the fact they took the money and left Scarborough with nothing for years.
    I'm pissed off because it's a waste of money to pave trails that don't connect to anywhere. If i wanted to ride my bicycle like it's a toy, up and down the same 3km paved trail then i'd be happy. Unfortunately I want to actually go relevant places(no, it isn't the ****ing ZOO - but close - it's my job i'd like to get to!).

    What would it be like if we spent the entire budget to pave super-nice roads out in the country where we could all take scenic Sunday rides, but had no cash left to fix the actual roadways that let us prosper and run the economy. That prime bicycle transportation grid now rots and becomes increasingly dangerous for it's users.


  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Okay.. lock the thread please. This could get nastier.
    Not sure if you are serious, but I'll respond anyway. I haven't seen anything yet that wants to make me lock the thread. Just a difference of opinion between 2 posters that AFAIK don't typically take those differences personally, and electrik making us play a mental game fill in the blanks while giving the forum's language autocensor a stern workout.

    If you want to continue the dialogue and share an opinion that you feel will exceed these parameters, consider asking electrik whether he/she is amenable to continuing the discussion on that basis via PM. So long as both parties are in agreement and know where to draw sensible lines, no harm done.

  11. #11
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    FWIW, I did an exploratory Scarborough ride the other day and rode the majority of the Gatineau corridor east>west and was pretty impressed. Lights appeared to be in place if not yet in service at most major road crossings. The bridge that I was planning to cross over the RT line/Stouffville GO on was actually shut down as it was getting a complete re-do.

    I have been told (by somebody motivated to actually go to city hall and check it out) that this was part of the 10 year plan, for at least the past 5 years. Even incomplete, I find it hard to fathom that most of the infrastructure being discussed here can be described as a waste of money. Hell, even the bits of paved trail I have in the past described as incredibly stupid in the same context as this article (Lawrence/DVP-Wynford, Bond Park-Leslie/Eglinton) make some sense in the 'grand scheme'. Am I bummed that a sweet piece of singletrack and secluded rail-trail respectively are now paved and graded? Yes, and I am scared that more of the trails I love are probably in the line-of-sight for city pavers.

    But while it may not be relevant to Electrik to ride off-road to the zoo, I imagine that the population living near the Gatineau might be stoked to be able to skip the bus(es) and ride to Kennedy Station, or Finch in North York.

    Anyway, I still have my own nit-picks with the plan as it sits, but having ridden much of what is being discussed, I just feel like this article is exaggerating the holes in the system. To act like it is all for naught would be to say that the paved path infrastructure in any/all of Toronto's parks and ravines have been a waste of money because they lack flawless continuity. Anybody who has used any of this infrastructure on a regular basis would be hard pressed to deny that they do their job at encouraging recreation, cycling or otherwise. Sure, I would rather it was all singletrack, but I, and the mtbr forum 'we' are but a small segment of the population.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I'm pissed off because it's a waste of money to pave trails that don't connect to anywhere. If i wanted to ride my bicycle like it's a toy, up and down the same 3km paved trail then i'd be happy. Unfortunately I want to actually go relevant places(no, it isn't the ****ing ZOO - but close - it's my job i'd like to get to!).
    So basically it's all about you...you getting to work faster. And so on. The usual tripe that comes from those with $$$$. And unless the destination fits your view of the world it is unrequired. And everyone else who thinks other wise must follow as you know what is better for those in Scarborough. The world does not revolve around you. And contrary to what you think there are people in who have been neglected by the lack of this infrastucture.

    Unlike you I can see past my own personal needs. But according to you if I want my daughter to ride her bike I should toss her onto Kingston Road and let happen happen. Because how dare there be money wasted on trails where kids can learn to ride and do so safely. All because it is unacceptable to the views of those in Leaside and such ... aka those with money. And we all know how Toronto loves to snipe about Scarborough while giving it nothing.

    If the money being spent to benefit the usually ignore Scarborough offends you so much. I highly suggest you put the effort into creating a organization whose sole mission is to de amalgamate the GTA. Then you won't have to be offended when infrastructure is put in places that offend yu.

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    Quote Originally Posted by veteran_youth View Post
    FWIW, I did an exploratory Scarborough ride the other day and rode the majority of the Gatineau corridor east>west and was pretty impressed. Lights appeared to be in place if not yet in service at most major road crossings. The bridge that I was planning to cross over the RT line/Stouffville GO on was actually shut down as it was getting a complete re-do.


    Quote Originally Posted by veteran_youth View Post
    But while it may not be relevant to Electrik to ride off-road to the zoo, I imagine that the population living near the Gatineau might be stoked to be able to skip the bus(es) and ride to Kennedy Station, or Finch in North York.
    The other aspect not mentioned of the Gatineau Hydro route is that the route heads to Morningside Park and the Highland Creek system. Which pretty much right at Toronto Uni Scarborough. Which is the site of the swimming events for Pan Ams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    If i wanted to ride my bicycle like it's a toy, up and down the same 3km paved trail then i'd be happy.
    You are on MTBR....which leads me to believe you do ride your bike like a toy, just repeatedly on the same UN-paved trails. I guess when (somebody's?) tax $$ pays for the TRCA to make that possible it's cool?

    Edit: Before anybody has a chance to start splitting hairs:

    Operating Budget Summary
    Total gross operating expenditures in 2011 are estimated to be $35,136,000. This is an
    increase of 3.3% over comparable 2010 budget. Revenues are budgeted to be $23,412,000, an
    increase of 4.3%. 2011 net expenditures of $11,724,000 are to be funded by municipal levy.
    This is an increase of $158,000 or 1.4% over 2010.


    http://trca.on.ca/dotAsset/102865.pdf

  15. #15
    humber river advocate
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Okay.. lock the thread please. This could get nastier.
    why? some good points are being made.
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    In regards to the idea of the Waterfront path that is suggested for the Scarborough Bluffs.

    You have ridden those bluffs way more then me Maki. Realistically it seems to be a pretty daunting challenge. First being any path will face NIMBYism from those living on the Bluffs. Then add in the reality those same people are losing back yard every year that ends up down below. And has been shown by the existing water front path it is easily blocked by landslides from the bluffs. As happened in the last 3 years and then takes years to do any clearing.

    Unless they really mean for it to be a side street route.

  17. #17
    humber river advocate
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    And we all know how Toronto loves to snipe about Scarborough while giving it nothing.
    .
    scarborough has it pretty good, you should try to get around in brampton without a car...
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    why? some good points are being made.
    As Circlip has said before... My view has been said...and that is all that matters.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    In regards to the idea of the Waterfront path that is suggested for the Scarborough Bluffs.

    You have ridden those bluffs way more then me Maki. Realistically it seems to be a pretty daunting challenge. First being any path will face NIMBYism from those living on the Bluffs. Then add in the reality those same people are losing back yard every year that ends up down below. And has been shown by the existing water front path it is easily blocked by landslides from the bluffs. As happened in the last 3 years and then takes years to do any clearing.

    Unless they really mean for it to be a side street route.
    Haven't ridden the Bluffs THAT much, but if you want to talk about useless paths that don't connect......

    Don't think NIMBY is really a problem with that, I was under the impression that the only reason that those paths exist right now is as breakers for erosion control. That they are ridable is just a positive side-effect.

  20. #20
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by veteran_youth View Post
    You are on MTBR....which leads me to believe you do ride your bike like a toy, just repeatedly on the same UN-paved trails. I guess when (somebody's?) tax $$ pays for the TRCA to make that possible it's cool?

    Edit: Before anybody has a chance to start splitting hairs:

    Operating Budget Summary
    Total gross operating expenditures in 2011 are estimated to be $35,136,000. This is an
    increase of 3.3% over comparable 2010 budget. Revenues are budgeted to be $23,412,000, an
    increase of 4.3%. 2011 net expenditures of $11,724,000 are to be funded by municipal levy.
    This is an increase of $158,000 or 1.4% over 2010.


    http://trca.on.ca/dotAsset/102865.pdf
    I think you're generalizing my claim about using the bicycle as a toy and telling people they can't "split hairs" to differentiate when a bicycle is used as a toy and when it used for transportation. The irony here is overwhelming, considering the political differences. Lets just be awful and generalize(one turn deserves another) that the right-wing 3.5 cars per household suburbanites don't see the bicycle as legitimate transportation and therefore installing infrastructure on ravines and other such urban backwaters probably seems like a great idea. I mean, they'll have somewhere to ride on sundays and those poor-people cyclists who can't afford cars will be off the roadway! Particularly good news after drivers learned what a threat cyclists were to their safety in the "war on cars" that Miller waged.



    After the Jarvis st debacle and Mende's bold statements it can only be true that Toronto feels the bicycle is a toy for adults who never grew up. Partisan politics introduced in the amalgamation so right-wings could gerrymander the Toronto vote will rott the core and then where will suburbia find jobs? The whole place is residential housing.



    I would be a good idea to filter out what TRCA spends on cycling before you compare the budgets. I doubt they spent $23 million for singletrack construction. If only that could be true...

    What is the goal of this project - To connect residents to the ZOO? If so.. it still fails at that. I bet the numbers look good on a sheet though.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I think you're generalizing my claim about using the bicycle as a toy and telling people they can't "split hairs" to differentiate when a bicycle is used as a toy and when it used for transportation.
    Whoa! When did I generalize anything?

    You made a comment about being pissed that your tax $$ went toward infrastructure so that people could "ride bikes like toys".

    I pointed out that if you didn't enjoy riding your bike outside of strictly utilitarian applications, you would not be on this forum.

    I pointed out that public tax $$ helps to fund the entity responsible for many GTA mtb destinations. I then provided hard evidence that this is the case, since I figured making blanket statements about the TRCA's funding would probably get me ripped a new one if I was wrong. (for the record I googled the TRCA budget after posting, and would have retracted that statement had it been wrong)

    And, quite frankly, have you ever ridden from Morningside/Ellesmere to city center on roads? I have, many times! And guess what, even as a seasoned T.O. commuter, I think being able to cut a diagonal on a dedicated right-of-way is AWESOME.

    I am not sure where you are coming from here.....are you pissed that this project marginalizes cyclists off of roads? Because it was too expensive? Because it is incomplete? I mean, the Martin Goodman trail is over 20 years old and still requires sharing motorized roadways at some points.....can you possibly argue that it is not heavily used by cyclists (and PROMOTES, or at the very least enables cycling) spanning all ends of the socio-economic spectrum?

    Again, I do not think that the execution is perfect by any means here.....I just don't understand how you can tell me it is a BAD thing. And if you are going to go that far, at least tell me you have ridden it, as well as the arterial alternatives. Until then, as reader of a half-assed Star article, I am not sure you are qualified to comment.

    EDIT: I actually HATE riding the MG trail because it is so well used. Hopefully someday I will feel that way about the Gatineau and will gladly ride Ellesmere to avoid it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by veteran_youth View Post
    And, quite frankly, have you ever ridden from Morningside/Ellesmere to city center on roads? I have, many times! And guess what, even as a seasoned T.O. commuter, I think being able to cut a diagonal on a dedicated right-of-way is AWESOME.
    Yes. And all around Scarborough. Not as long as you Maki but long enough to know that the "War on Bikes" in Toronto was occuring long before the "I hate Rob Ford' Hate Wagon started rolling.

    As James Kirk once observed.. "people ar very frightened of change". And this is a significant change of methodology that has accured this year in Toronto. Those like Elecktric where comfortable with the status quo of the last few years. Now something new is being tried and it scares them. And that upsets them and makes them angry.

    And by the way.. one of those infidel suburbanites you are slagging Electrik is my wife. As well as my in laws Last I checked they pay taxes as well and should be seeing some benefits. Not see it disappear and receive nothing.

  23. #23
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by veteran_youth View Post
    Whoa! When did I generalize anything?

    You made a comment about being pissed that your tax $$ went toward infrastructure so that people could "ride bikes like toys".

    I pointed out that if you didn't enjoy riding your bike outside of strictly utilitarian applications, you would not be on this forum.

    I pointed out that public tax $$ helps to fund the entity responsible for many GTA mtb destinations. I then provided hard evidence that this is the case, since I figured making blanket statements about the TRCA's funding would probably get me ripped a new one if I was wrong. (for the record I googled the TRCA budget after posting, and would have retracted that statement had it been wrong)

    And, quite frankly, have you ever ridden from Morningside/Ellesmere to city center on roads? I have, many times! And guess what, even as a seasoned T.O. commuter, I think being able to cut a diagonal on a dedicated right-of-way is AWESOME.

    I am not sure where you are coming from here.....are you pissed that this project marginalizes cyclists off of roads? Because it was too expensive? Because it is incomplete? I mean, the Martin Goodman trail is over 20 years old and still requires sharing motorized roadways at some points.....can you possibly argue that it is not heavily used by cyclists (and PROMOTES, or at the very least enables cycling) spanning all ends of the socio-economic spectrum?

    Again, I do not think that the execution is perfect by any means here.....I just don't understand how you can tell me it is a BAD thing. And if you are going to go that far, at least tell me you have ridden it, as well as the arterial alternatives. Until then, as reader of a half-assed Star article, I am not sure you are qualified to comment.

    EDIT: I actually HATE riding the MG trail because it is so well used. Hopefully someday I will feel that way about the Gatineau and will gladly ride Ellesmere to avoid it.
    It sounded like to me that you were trying generalize recreation(toy) cycling and transportation cycling just because they both come out of tax dollars. Maybe you mean it's hypocritical i object to the city spending $23 million on recreational cycling since all cycling spending is the same - what's it matter to me i get to ride it. Problem is they're not the same. The fact is the city is simply stuffing these pathways anywhere so they can get the federal money and generate revenue for themselves.

    Yes - Trying to get somewhere on MG trail is **** and the reason is that all these trails are created for RECREATION by people who see bicycles as toys that don't belong on the streets. These new trails will be the same, for recreation.

    As a stupid reader of that article i'll comment that I don't ride any of those trails anymore because i really can't stand it, it's like trying to ride on a sidewalks and it takes me 50% longer to get anywhere besides the Quay. How many people work or shop at the Quay?? We all have to get on arterial roads to get anywhere so why are we forced to take massive detours on pathways that aren't even maintained all year round!@ Because this city really thinks cycling if for recreation only! So bucking fackwards!


  24. #24
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Yes. And all around Scarborough. Not as long as you Maki but long enough to know that the "War on Bikes" in Toronto was occuring long before the "I hate Rob Ford' Hate Wagon started rolling.

    As James Kirk once observed.. "people ar very frightened of change". And this is a significant change of methodology that has accured this year in Toronto. Those like Elecktric where comfortable with the status quo of the last few years. Now something new is being tried and it scares them. And that upsets them and makes them angry.

    And by the way.. one of those infidel suburbanites you are slagging Electrik is my wife. As well as my in laws Last I checked they pay taxes as well and should be seeing some benefits. Not see it disappear and receive nothing.
    Wrong, what is happening is the status quo!!

    Real separated bike lanes up university would have been GREAT! But it was shot down, like you said people are frightened of change.

    Are you saying your wife doesn't get money for her tax dollars because.. what, *just because* she doesn't ride a bicycle? Your inlaws get no benefits for tax dollars? This is lunacy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Are you saying your wife doesn't get money for her tax dollars because.. what, *just because* she doesn't ride a bicycle? Your inlaws get no benefits for tax dollars? This is lunacy.
    I wasn't the one foaming how evil suburbanites of Scarborough are. Nothing new there... some groups in the GTA love to slag Scarborough so they can feel superior. And you are continuing this pattern. Scarborough is part of Toronto the city. They have just as much right to a trail project as the rest of Toronto.

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