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  1. #1
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    Oct 19th High Park Skills Park Meeting

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    Hello mountain bikers and BMXers,

    This is to inform you that City of Toronto staff have recently closed an informal BMX freestyle area (skills park) in High Park to restore an ecologically significant area. The site has been replanted, fenced off and is currently being monitored for any further cycling activity.

    A new skills parks, offering technically challenging riding in an accessible and controlled environment, will be built on the site of the existing parking lot in the south east corner of High Park. City staff are currently working with accomplished skills park designer, Jay Hoots Hoots Mountain Biking, to develop the new site that will include appropriate off-road cycling features, skills areas and landscape amenities.

    Please join Jay Hoots and City of Toronto staff on Wednesday, October 19 from 6:00-8:30pm, at the Rousseau Room, Swansea Town Hall, to participate in the design consultation for the new skills park in High Park. Jay wants to hear from you.

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    Talked with Scott Laver at the Bayview jumps. He needs all available bodies to show up. needs numbers.

    *** Edited by moderator ***
    Last edited by Circlip; 10-05-2011 at 09:02 AM.

  3. #3
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    This would be awesome... a formal skills park with actually maintained features inside of Toronto.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    This would be awesome... a formal skills park with actually maintained features inside of Toronto.
    It's the beginning of change in city mentality. But as Scott mentioned people need to start showing up. He doesn't care if you say nothing at the meeting or can only be at the work day for half an hour. Just show up.

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    Thanks for x-posting Endura, really appreicate it.

    All, if you can make it out, please do. A big showing will help us gain momentum to complete this skills park and catylize the development of more in Toronto.

    The location is Swansea Town Hall

    95 Lavinia Ave, Toronto, ON M6S 3H9

    2 streets south of Bloor, East of Windermere

    RSVP here or on the facebook event page.

    Cheers,
    Graham
    Graham Seaman
    Vice President
    Toronto Off-Road Bicycle Association

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    :: DROPMACHINE.COM:: • View topic - High Park Skills Park Consultation w Jay Hoots Oct 19th

    From Paul the DJ king.

    I was told by Scott that it is absolutely mandatory for us to show up in numbers, that means even you if think you'll never use it, we still need you to come and show your face. I wish signatures could show them that we can stand behind projects like these, they've seen them, now they want to see that we can come together as community and voice what we want/need in person

    In speaking with our city contact, it was suggested that we get a letter writing campaign going. So here are some points:

    - the mountain biking and bmx community needs a high quality skills development facility in High Park to replace that which was lost
    - such a facility should be designed for all off road cyclists, from toddlers on run-bikes to skilled adults
    - the cycling community will work together to maintain the skills park

    If you can't attend on the 19th or even if you can please put a note together to support this initiative. Send the note to trails@toronto.ca, the local Councillor Sarah Doucette at councillor_doucette@toronto.ca and your local Councillor.

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    Jason Murray just sent this out to the IMBA membership as well with the same urgency (it was combined with the similar Copeland announcement).

    Quote Originally Posted by IMBA Canada
    I want to stress that these are not you run of the mill "show up and support MTB" meetings. IMO these are once in a generation meeting that will act as turning points in the respective areas. So if you are anywhere near these areas at the dates these meeting are happening, please show up and lend your voice to the cause.
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    Jason Murray just sent this out to the IMBA membership as well with the same urgency (it was combined with the similar Copeland announcement).
    Yes. This matches exactly what Scott innuendo'd on Sunday.

    *** Edited by moderator ***
    Last edited by Circlip; 10-04-2011 at 06:19 PM.

  9. #9
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    Nothing to see here folks. Move along, so that this very important thread may continue.

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    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Nothing to see here folks. Move along, so that this very important thread may continue.
    Actually it's funny because the group in question is not even recognized as being native(an actual tribe) by any of the other tribe. It's basically one dude and a bunch of follower who are notorious for stirring up ****.

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    I'm going to try make it there. I'm going to see if I can get a few friends to show up too.

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    I am very tempted to get out to this meeting (whether or not I'm available then is up to the baby, ).

    If this project were to go ahead, it would be a bit of a drive but at least it's in the west end and as Jason says, it's win-win for advocates in other municipalities if Toronto builds it and it works.
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    I am very tempted to get out to this meeting (whether or not I'm available then is up to the baby, ).

    If this project were to go ahead, it would be a bit of a drive but at least it's in the west end and as Jason says, it's win-win for advocates in other municipalities if Toronto builds it and it works.
    Yeah, new babies have a way of deciding things for you.

    Drive? Nah, take the train. Ride down to Aldershot station, relax for a while on the train, ride over to High Park from Mimico or Exhibition. I've been taking the train downtown when I do evening rides in the Don with my friends, and I've found it to make for a much more enjoyable evening than if I take the car.

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    Ooh, traveling by train! How civilized!

    As a complete aside, I love that the meeting is going to be in the old Swansea Town Hall. I love when old community names like that pop up in what now is the "middle" of Toronto.

    It would be cool to see a map from, say a 150 years ago, showing all these little spots as separate entities!
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Actually it's funny because the group in question is not even recognized as being native(an actual tribe) by any of the other tribe. It's basically one dude and a bunch of follower who are notorious for stirring up ****.
    In the next 24 hours please give us the benefit of a reference link you can provide or someone else can post up) containing some balanced report of this item, so that our mtbr users may educate themselves further on this issue. Aboriginal rights and land use issues are a component of this topic, and therefore I'm not going to instantly take moderator action on posts of this topic pretending it doesn't exist, but anyone choosing to post should be mindful that this is a not a sociopolitical forum and a short leash will be used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Aboriginal rights and land use issues are a component of this topic,.....
    They are, but I'd like to suggest to anyone who goes to the meeting, that it not be brought up. I don't think it should have any part in what we have to say during the meeting if we speak up. We should be there to show support for building the skills park and expressing what we would like to see built. Yes, that group (who/whatever they are) was responsible for having the DJs flattened. Was it right? Are they legitimate? I don't care at this point because it's happened, and now the city wants to talk about building us a skills park to replace it. They've got a contractor coming, and they're asking us to show up to show our support and express our wishes for the site. Any time we spend talking about who did what in the past, or whether or not they are who they claim to be, or whether the dirt jumps were a burial ground or a hill just takes time away from getting the point across that we want this to happen, and how we want it to happen.

    I'd love to see the place packed full of riders showing their support of the park, offering suggestions, and not taking any bait to waste time arguing about the recognition or land rights of the people that got the DJs flattened. I think that would be a very strong message to the city.

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    I agree. The land rights thing is immaterial to the topic at hand. Griping about why the old stuff was flattened would only divert energy away from what could be a really cool project.
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    Lu Mach had some info he shared. But since that was a PM conversation I will leave it for him to decide.whether to share.

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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    I agree. The land rights thing is immaterial to the topic at hand. Griping about why the old stuff was flattened would only divert energy away from what could be a really cool project.
    Easier said then done. The group in question has and will be there. Been very vocal in opposition to this. So be prepared.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Easier said then done. The group in question has and will be there. Been very vocal in opposition to this. So be prepared.
    Are you saying that they are also making a claim on the parking lot?
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    Are you saying that they are also making a claim on the parking lot?
    I have a suspicion that for them allowing anything bike related is evil. And they will oppose it and claiming something along it being "Sacred" ground is their MO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    claiming something along it being "Sacred" ground is their MO.
    No need to speculate about what they will or won’t say, here is what they are saying:

    Request to Stop BMX/Skills Park in High Park by THPS, FOSM and Six Nations Grandmothers | Taiaiako'n Historical Preservation Society

    JM2C, but I agree that rehashing the events leading up to this meeting and disputing their claims and/or legitimacy are non-productive. Without agreeing or disagreeing with their point of view, I see the process being most useful to the democracy at large if it ends up that so many people speak out against the park giving reasons X, Y, and Z, and so many people speak out for the park giving reasons A, B, and C. Using your time to give reasons for the park adds great value, and I strongly suspect that the question of burial grounds and so on will be decided in some back room somewhere, with very little attention paid to who says what in the meeting. Thus, if I am correct, speaking out against the park does little or nothing to change a decision about Aboriginal rights that will be made by/with lawyers and insiders, while speaking out for the park will add weight to the argument that the park will be popular with the public.

    JM2C, I will gently suggest, but in the end it’s your moment to speak and you are the only one who has a right to decide what you will say. That’s democracy as well.

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    Interesting quote from my link above:

    In 2008, the City was advised that the site was believed to be an aboriginal burial mound. The City contracted a licensed archaeologist to conduct an archaeological assessment in accordance with the Ministry of Culture’s standards and guidelines. The assessments, completed in September 2009, determined that there is no evidence of archaeological materials. In May 2010, the province accepted the conclusions of the assessments. Based on information provided from these assessment, the City does not recognize the land as a burial ground. The group claiming the site to be culturally significant have been invited to participate in the restoration process.
    (Make of this what you will, it’s just copy and paste from a web site, not an official communiqué.)

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    Oh ya, this is going to be messy...

    One thing's clear though, this group has figured out how to read Pinkbike and it's only a click away to MTBR from there so I'd advise all here to keep your comments civil and in good taste.
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    Oh ya, this is going to be messy...

    One thing's clear though, this group has figured out how to read Pinkbike and it's only a click away to MTBR from there so I'd advise all here to keep your comments civil and in good taste.
    It's possible that they have, but find the posts here not useful as evidence to back up the picture they wish to paint of the potential users of the park. Many of the posts on Pinkbike on the other hand, seem to work great for that purpose.

    I think one of the best ways to disprove the image of cyclists that they seem to be pushing is to not respond to what seems to be bait by arguing, but to demonstrate as a group by our behaviour how we do not fit the image they are pushing.

    You can argue it with words, or you can show it by example.
    Last edited by nickboers; 10-05-2011 at 11:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nickboers View Post
    It's possible that they have, but find the posts here not useful as evidence to back up the picture they wish to paint of the potential users of the park. Many of the posts on Pinkbike on the other hand, work great for that purpose.
    I think that in 2011 everyone—including the civil service--has figured out that comments on a public internet forum disproportionally reflect the opinions of a small minority of the forum’s users, who is turn disproportionally reflect a small proportion of the sport as a whole. And that’s not even getting into the question of whether posts could be made by Agent Provocateurs who don’t even ride.

    JM2C again, but I expect that the “powers that be” will form their conclusions about the numbers and character of the BMX and MTB communities from the people that show up to speak, not from hearsay. I think what they are looking for is for riders to talk about what the skills park would mean to them, and they will also give top marks to groups that appear to be organized, such as IMBA, TORBA, OCA, or whomever.

    Politicians and bureaucrats know how to recognize a kindred spirit

    p.s.

    Quote Originally Posted by nickboers View Post
    I think one of the best ways to disprove the image of cyclists that they seem to be pushing is to not respond to what seems to be bait by arguing, but to demonstrate as a group by our behaviour how we do not fit the image they are pushing.

    You can argue it with words, or you can show it by example.
    Slow clap, rising to thunderous applause.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    JM2C again, but I expect that the “powers that be” will form their conclusions about the numbers and character of the BMX and MTB communities from the people that show up to speak, not from hearsay.
    I think your 2c are right on with that one, and why we need to show them who we are by what we say, and how we say it.

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    As mentioned above please tread carefully. I've had to delete and block a few folks from the facebook event already. We are only concerned with the needs and wants that the skills park should fill and not with the land access issue.

    That being said, please come out on the 19th and/or send a note to the Natural Trails Program, Councillor Doucette and your own local Toronto Councillor supporting this project and let them know what you think it should include.

    Thanks for you all your positive support.

    Best regards,
    G
    Graham Seaman
    Vice President
    Toronto Off-Road Bicycle Association

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    Quote Originally Posted by cracker77 View Post
    As mentioned above please tread carefully. I've had to delete and block a few folks from the facebook event already. We are only concerned with the needs and wants that the skills park should fill and not with the land access issue.

    That being said, please come out on the 19th and/or send a note to the Natural Trails Program, Councillor Doucette and your own local Toronto Councillor supporting this project and let them know what you think it should include.

    Thanks for you all your positive support.

    Best regards,
    G
    Graham, thanks so much for your contribution. Are you able to share email and/or other contact information for the Natural Trails Program, and/or Councillor Doucette?

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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Graham, thanks so much for your contribution. Are you able to share email and/or other contact information for the Natural Trails Program, and/or Councillor Doucette?
    You're welcome, its my neighbourhood and I'd love to have a skills park to take my kids to in a few years so they can learn bike skills in a safe and constructive environment.

    you can hit them up here:
    Natural Trails Program - trails@toronto.ca,
    Councillor Sarah Doucette - councillor_doucette@toronto.ca
    Graham Seaman
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    JM2C again, but I expect that the “powers that be” will form their conclusions about the numbers and character of the BMX and MTB communities from the people that show up to speak, not from hearsay.
    I wish this were always true but I've been through it enough times locally (Queensdale bike lanes, Meadowlands trails, the Velodrome, etc..) to know that no matter how strong your case is and how well argued it may be that the "powers that be" sometimes have inscrutable agendas. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.

    People will grab at anything no matter how apocryphal or ephemeral to try and bolster their case and we don't need to give them any ammunition so let's keep the discussion clean and constructive.

    Rather than talk about a group that opposes the project, why don't we talk about what we want in a skills park? For instance, I want stuff that's low to the ground because I'm a huge chicken!
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    I wish this were always true but I've been through it enough times locally (Queensdale bike lanes, Meadowlands trails, the Velodrome, etc..) to know that no matter how strong your case is and how well argued it may be that the "powers that be" sometimes have inscrutable agendas. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.

    People will grab at anything no matter how apocryphal or ephemeral to try and bolster their case and we don't need to give them any ammunition so let's keep the discussion clean and constructive.

    Rather than talk about a group that opposes the project, why don't we talk about what we want in a skills park? For instance, I want stuff that's low to the ground because I'm a huge chicken!
    Good point GM.

    I'd like to see a kickass pump track and table top dj set like in the Don. Some low skinnies would cool too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cracker77 View Post
    I'd like to see a kickass pump track and table top dj set like in the Don. Some low skinnies would cool too.
    Oh a big huge pump track would be wicked!
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    .....why don't we talk about what we want in a skills park? For instance, I want stuff that's low to the ground because I'm a huge chicken!
    Most people start out as huge chickens. Low to the ground is a great thing to have in a skills park. We also need higher stuff for when the chickens progress and have the skills and desire to try something bigger.

    I like how the drops at McLennan park were implemented as being accommodating for different skill levels. They can be taken slow, and the resulting vertical drop and air time are quite short. They can be taken at high speed and you can cover a huge distance and hang for what feel like seconds in the air. They have a huge, long, wide downslope transition that is nearly perfectly planar. it doesn't matter if you go straight, left or right off the drop, or how far you go, it's smooth dirt at the same angle wherever you land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cracker77 View Post
    Good point GM.

    I'd like to see a kickass pump track and table top dj set like in the Don. Some low skinnies would cool too.
    ...and a smaller pump track for the little kids too? My 3 year old daughter would love that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nickboers View Post
    I like how the drops at McLennan park were implemented as being accommodating for different skill levels. They can be taken slow, and the resulting vertical drop and air time are quite short. They can be taken at high speed and you can cover a huge distance and hang for what feel like seconds in the air. They have a huge, long, wide downslope transition that is nearly perfectly planar. it doesn't matter if you go straight, left or right off the drop, or how far you go, it's smooth dirt at the same angle wherever you land.
    The Expert drops at Ray's are progressive too and IIRC, you can roll all of them. The thing I don't love about those ones though is the way they merge into the entrance to the Expert area. So many near misses!
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    I wish this were always true but I've been through it enough times locally (Queensdale bike lanes, Meadowlands trails, the Velodrome, etc..) to know that no matter how strong your case is and how well argued it may be that the "powers that be" sometimes have inscrutable agendas. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.
    We agree on this. I only said that they would form their conclusion about us from who showed up, not that they would form their conclusion about the bike park from who shows up

    Now to the skills park. I’m 100% ok with a pump track and I think that low skinnies are fine. The idea is to practice your skills, and then you take your skills onto the trails to work on your commitment.

    Some ride-overs would be nice as well.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickboers View Post
    ...and a smaller pump track for the little kids too? My 3 year old daughter would love that.
    A teaching square like the one at Joyride would be great for kids and adults too. I've spent hours noodling around on that thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    Rather than talk about a group that opposes the project, why don't we talk about what we want in a skills park? For instance, I want stuff that's low to the ground because I'm a huge chicken!
    First suggestion when it comes to this is leave the ego and testicles at home.

    Skills park needs progression as mentioned. Meaning while accomodating you who doesn't like heights we still need to build stuff for the fearless and skilled. If not those riders won't stay around. And we need to include them as well, alot of those riders are the one's who will fix stuff at the park.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    In the next 24 hours please give us the benefit of a reference link you can provide or someone else can post up) containing some balanced report of this item, so that our mtbr users may educate themselves further on this issue. Aboriginal rights and land use issues are a component of this topic, and therefore I'm not going to instantly take moderator action on posts of this topic pretending it doesn't exist, but anyone choosing to post should be mindful that this is a not a sociopolitical forum and a short leash will be used.
    Enjoy

    Red Power

    I've heard of Cree, Huron.. but never red power. I don't mean to bring up "native issues" but really this got thrown in the face of mountain bikers simply because the terrain features look like so called snake-mounds. Seriously what doesn't get thrown at us though... next they'll find some newts. Frankly i think this Group neeeds to back off because there is no real evidence to support their claim - even after a dig was conducted! * Iroquois didn't use snake mounds from what i've heard.

    Finally, who the **** cares really because they stuff is now going to be moved to the parking lot instead... unless there were snake mounds there also. SO now that group can have their fake snake mounds and we can have an actual skills parks... the only people who won't be happy are the richy rich old retirees living nearby!

    The end.

  41. #41
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    I didn't mean to imply that *everything* needs to be low to the ground just some stuff.

    Even the beginner skinnies at Joyride had to be taken down a "notch". People thought they were a little too high.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Skills park needs progression as mentioned. Meaning while accomodating you who doesn't like heights we still need to build stuff for the fearless and skilled. If not those riders won't stay around. And we need to include them as well, alot of those riders are the one's who will fix stuff at the park.
    There is a difference between accommodating a progression of skills and accommodating a progression of fearlessness. For example, Joyride has a skinny that progressively narrows to two inches in height that is a few inches off the deck. That accommodates a progression of skill. Most of the expert skinnies are less than two feet off the deck. For skinnies, one can easily progress in skill within the park and go elsewhere to work on your ability to keep it together while looking at a bad landing.

    I understand that with certain types of jumps and drops, you cannot progress the skills without progressing the fearlessness. Likewise, if you want to work on big rideovers, you have to be prepared to bail off big logs and stones. That being said, I suggest prioritizing skill progression and only making things more dangerous when absolutely necessary.

    As presented, this is a skills park, not an alternative to riding D_ Q____ or G________. If folks want to go elsewhere to get their adrenaline fix, that’s fine. It can’t be all things to alll people, all of the time.

    Again, I accept that jumps and drops conflate the two issues substantially. But not everything in a skills park needs to be dangerous to be useful for training skills or interesting to ride.

    (That being said, I have no personal objection to having a six inch skinny wind its way through the trees overhead.)
    Last edited by raganwald; 10-05-2011 at 01:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    I didn't mean to imply that *everything* needs to be low to the ground just some stuff.

    Even the beginner skinnies at Joyride had to be taken down a "notch". People thought they were a little too high.
    Sorry... I keep forgetting not everyone wants no more the 6 inches off the ground for everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Enjoy

    Red Power

    I've heard of Cree, Huron.. but never red power. I don't mean to bring up "native issues" but really this got thrown in the face of mountain bikers simply because the terrain features look like so called snake-mounds. Seriously what doesn't get thrown at us though... next they'll find some newts. Frankly i think this Group neeeds to back off because there is no real evidence to support their claim - even after a dig was conducted! * Iroquois didn't use snake mounds from what i've heard.

    Finally, who the **** cares really because they stuff is now going to be moved to the parking lot instead... unless there were snake mounds there also. SO now that group can have their fake snake mounds and we can have an actual skills parks... the only people who won't be happy are the richy rich old retirees living nearby!

    The end.
    5....4.....3.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Sorry... I keep forgetting not everyone wants no more the 6 inches off the ground for everything.
    To argue against my earlier point, higher skinnies can have a skills component regardless of the commitment factor. Riding the skinny is much the same, however bailing off the skinny is a different matter when you cannot easily ride off it. Somewhere more than a foot off the ground, it starts to make way more sense to hop or pedal kick or go tail first when you need to get off that thing, and it’s hard to practice those things properly on a skinny that’s only a few inches in the air.

    And again, somewhere more than two feet off the ground, going tail first involves an extra bit of ju-ju to get the front wheel off the skinny. It’s hard to practice the move properly off something too low.

    Finally, things like bunny hopping over obstacles or zap-tapping onto them requires some height. I practice a lot of this stuff at the (concrete) BMX park near my house. They have things you can ride more than a few inches off the ground, and they’re useful.

    So upon reflection, I can understand why people might want some things higher up, and it might be entirely a skills development issue.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    First suggestion when it comes to this is leave the ego and testicles at home.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Sorry... I keep forgetting not everyone wants no more the 6 inches off the ground for everything.
    So which is it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    So which is it?
    Rather than circle down the drainpipe of ambiguity, can we not all agree that multiple progressive features to suit a diverse range of skills and cajones would be nice? Just purely from the rider experience, not worrying about any practical issues such as liability exposure, etc. which the city can figure out for themselves.

    For a facility that's proposed to be built from scratch with no pre-existing constraints, it's difficult to argue against that (isn't it?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    So which is it?
    Tom Pro said that when it comes to building. Alot of it is more about the whole-" We need 6 foot drops, Discombobulator's, and what not" that comes up. And most who want that will never ride it.

    As Raganwald mentioned. It needs to have progression- including stuff for the more advanced. If not people will reach a point then go build for themselves to make up for it.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    5....4.....3.....
    2... 1.... 0... Ignition.


    Honestly try to give a balanced picture, i mean their own website is there... but like i said this burial ground stuff is thankfully now a side-show. It will end up costing us some extra work to turn the lot into something, but at least it will be legit.

    I just hope it's not TOO bmx oriented, dropping in on a 26" is scary, probably impossible for the wagon wheelers

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    Some points for this,

    - Obesity in children is increasing

    - Kids are less interested in what used to be traditional recreation.

    -Traditional recriation activities are drawing less interest.

    -It costs less to build an maintain mtb infrastructure then what the city is providing now.

    -MTBing is an activity that is easier to access for those of lower incomes then tradional activities, look at all the kids from what are essentially social housing showing up at the DJ's and riding the Don. Have bikes that aren't what we think are great. But they need an outlet for what interests them.

    -Pan Ams, part of hosting games like this is building facilities like this.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I just hope it's not TOO bmx oriented, dropping in on a 26" is scary, probably impossible for the wagon wheelers
    In general, my hope is for the plan to be truly progressive (useful for everyone from kids on push bikes on up) and balanced between disciplines (fun for BMX, DJ and old guys on 29ers with trials thrown in for good measure).
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    most excavations must pass an archaeological assessment... once cleared you can dig all you want. i'm sure the new site has been cleared and proper due deligence has been done. for those that are interested in such an assessment here's an example:

    http://www.cambridge.ca/relatedDocs/...0Stage%201.pdf

    anyway some key issues of such a project is: accessibility, sustainability, and that it remains progressive in nature. i would also suggest that it follows the City of Toronto: Change is in the Air... mandate.
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    Last edited by singlesprocket; 10-08-2011 at 07:03 PM.
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    3 day reminder that this is coming up. I'm going. Are you?

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    My work schedule got changed around, so yes, I'll be there

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    It's D-Day people. Tonight is the time to make the city take notice.

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    Interesting, apparently the parking lot is also on sacred ground and there is a bird nesting nearby also so now it's going to be more complicated because there are 58 sites around the park where remains(?) are supposed to have been.

    I almost had to bite my fist when rhetoric started about "you people" (yes you) being only guests. If somebody was being racist and exclusive in that room it wasn't any of the mtb'r/bmx and that was great because we are seemingly an inclusive and patient bunch who will tolerate a lot to get what we want. Just glad I wasn't the guy to start the mud fight about native rights that group really wanted and that we ourselves got an actual plan started!

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    Thanks to all who showed up. I think it was a productive meeting overall. Though everyone had great suggestions, I was particularly impressed by the maturity and progressive nature of the suggestions made by the youngest table in the room. Their concerns about the use of the old DJ site by people drinking and/or using drugs because it was a convenient secluded site that was tucked away in a corner was very insightful. I was also happy to see that when the various tables shared their comments, the predominantly aboriginal table had some useful things to say. Sometimes we forget that sometimes we crash, and sometimes it's bad. Some form of first aid would be a good thing.

    When Tim asked for water filled pits between the double jumps, inhabited by alligators, and Jay said something like "we stopped doing that in the 90's, it's not cool anymore" I got a good laugh. He's a cool guy.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Interesting, apparently the parking lot is also on sacred ground and there is a bird nesting nearby also so now it's going to be more complicated because there are 58 sites around the park where remains(?) are supposed to have been.

    I almost had to bite my fist when rhetoric started about "you people" (yes you) being only guests. If somebody was being racist and exclusive in that room it wasn't any of the mtb'r/bmx and that was great because we are seemingly an inclusive and patient bunch who will tolerate a lot to get what we want. Just glad I wasn't the guy to start the mud fight about native rights that group really wanted and that we ourselves got an actual plan started!
    the whole nesting bird thing was a smoke screen, i guess a paved parking lot full of cars is better for nesting birds... i did talk to the aboriginal group and supporters afterwards and in fact they are supportive of a bike park and trails. but the issue is that they made this location a focal point of a beef with the city and conflict of power/control in their own organizations. we just happen to be caught in the middle, so of course we are going to be used as leverage. in the end the city has to decide what they want to do.

    that being said jay hoots seems to get what everyone wants with the key issues being drainage, gravity fed, progression, kids, safety, etc... though i think he got a taste of mtb issues in ontario.

    i did find out a feature/design that the opposition group liked after explaining it to them. that was a huge step. there is also a local landscape architect involved with the design, this is great news as it will aid in future designs not only in toronto but elsewhere in ontario.

    i also have to say that cot did a good job in organizing the meeting and look forward to future meetings. every meeting is very important to attend so lets keep the momentem going.
    Last edited by singlesprocket; 10-20-2011 at 04:26 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    i did find out a feature/design that the opposition group liked after explaining it to them. that was a huge step.
    What did they like?

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    Thanks to everyone for attending. The turn out was better than expected and I understand the meeting went smoothly. I unfortunately arrived late due to work.

    Hats off to Cot and Hootie for their efforts at keeping it productive.

    Stay tuned for future updates as we work throught this.

    Cheers,
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    We the people ...

    Quote Originally Posted by nickboers View Post
    What did they like?
    the living wall riding feature with mosaic artwork
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    the whole nesting bird thing was a smoke screen, i guess a paved parking lot full of cars is better for nesting birds... i did talk to the aboriginal group and supporters afterwards and in fact they are supportive of a bike park and trails. but the issue is that they made this location a focal point of a beef with the city and conflict of power/control in their own organizations. we just happen to be caught in the middle, so of course we are going to be used as leverage. in the end the city has to decide what they want to do.

    that being said jay hoots seems to get what everyone wants with the key issues being drainage, gravity fed, progression, kids, safety, etc... though i think he got a taste of mtb issues in ontario.

    i did find out a feature/design that the opposition group liked after explaining it to them. that was a huge step. there is also a local landscape architect involved with the design, this is great news as it will aid in future designs not only in toronto but elsewhere in ontario.

    i also have to say that cot did a good job in organizing the meeting and look forward to future meetings. every meeting is very important to attend so lets keep the momentem going.
    Exactly, the whole bit was a smoke-screen with a few tidbits thrown in. Most people realized that because it's obvious that this area was parking lot for how many years and nobody has been able to find evidence to support the claim let alone the fact a bird still showed up there despite all that. Obviously nobody wants to build on a grave-yard, but we need some evidence(like remains) to convince us because people can make factual errors even in oral traditions. You're right about the leverage. I resent some bmx kids and mtb being used as leverage in this group's fight over native rights with the city. I just hope we don't up having this park end up as collateral damage because it'd be great to have something in the west and so close to the lakefront trail. I'm also for concessions(perhaps building between sacred areas) with the group, but something tells me that isn't what they want at all.

    Anyways, Hoots sounds like he has lots of experience so if this park goes ahead it will be in mature hands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Interesting, apparently the parking lot is also on sacred ground and there is a bird nesting nearby also so now it's going to be more complicated because there are 58 sites around the park where remains(?) are supposed to have been.

    I almost had to bite my fist when rhetoric started about "you people" (yes you) being only guests. If somebody was being racist and exclusive in that room it wasn't any of the mtb'r/bmx and that was great because we are seemingly an inclusive and patient bunch who will tolerate a lot to get what we want. Just glad I wasn't the guy to start the mud fight about native rights that group really wanted and that we ourselves got an actual plan started!
    This really ticked me off, but it was good to see the biking community with-hold from making comments. I think it really showed our maturity. It was good to see, but hard to hear...

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Exactly, the whole bit was a smoke-screen with a few tidbits thrown in. Most people realized that because it's obvious that this area was parking lot for how many years and nobody has been able to find evidence to support the claim let alone the fact a bird still showed up there despite all that. Obviously nobody wants to build on a grave-yard, but we need some evidence(like remains) to convince us because people can make factual errors even in oral traditions. You're right about the leverage. I resent some bmx kids and mtb being used as leverage in this group's fight over native rights with the city. I just hope we don't up having this park end up as collateral damage because it'd be great to have something in the west and so close to the lakefront trail. I'm also for concessions(perhaps building between sacred areas) with the group, but something tells me that isn't what they want at all.

    Anyways, Hoots sounds like he has lots of experience so if this park goes ahead it will be in mature hands.
    While I agree with you that tests should be run, I don't think it'll do a whole lot. Archaeological tests were performed at 'Snake Mound', no concrete evidence was supposedly found, however the site was still fenced off and returned to it's original state despite the lack of evidence.
    If the skills park gets built at the parking lot, the aboriginal community will not be happy. They will protest and try to get the skills park "destroyed" and returned to it's original state.
    We'll be better off finding another location nearby to avoid all this and try and satisfy both parties. It's not worth arguing about.


    All in all, I think the meeting went great. Some fantastic and original/unique ideas were brought up! It was really great to see!
    The maturity and general comportment of everyone there (especially the biking community..) was really great to see. I think we made a good picture of ourselves as good, respecting people. We tried to show 6 nation groups that we were willing to work with them, and ideas like allowing them to name the skills park, getting some Aboriginal artwork put in and having a Native Canadian theme to the park.


    It made me proud to be a rider.

  65. #65
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    if bird nesting is a concern we can incorporate bird nesting sites into the design... it is really that easy... any company involved with this project using innovative and experimental materials, processes, and techniques have access to a revenue stream
    (read the link below)

    Scientific Research and Experimental Development (SR&ED) Tax Incentive Program
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  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajmckerihen View Post
    While I agree with you that tests should be run, I don't think it'll do a whole lot. Archaeological tests were performed at 'Snake Mound', no concrete evidence was supposedly found, however the site was still fenced off and returned to it's original state despite the lack of evidence.
    If the skills park gets built at the parking lot, the aboriginal community will not be happy. They will protest and try to get the skills park "destroyed" and returned to it's original state.
    We'll be better off finding another location nearby to avoid all this and try and satisfy both parties. It's not worth arguing about.


    All in all, I think the meeting went great. Some fantastic and original/unique ideas were brought up! It was really great to see!
    The maturity and general comportment of everyone there (especially the biking community..) was really great to see. I think we made a good picture of ourselves as good, respecting people. We tried to show 6 nation groups that we were willing to work with them, and ideas like allowing them to name the skills park, getting some Aboriginal artwork put in and having a Native Canadian theme to the park.


    It made me proud to be a rider.
    Run a few tests, it will probably prove them wrong again. Already the city has made a concessions, by closing the old jumps, towards this group. Their claim as representatives of the 6 nations(through my research) seems tenuous at best, i'm not versed in the hierarchy deeply, but it seems to me one main council doesn't recognize them as proxies. Something is up there.

    Further, if this issue is so important why didn't this group red power occupy the parking lot in question.

    An interesting question. So far it seems, for some reason unknown to me, they're selectively out to block bmx and mtb peeps, which makes them a special interest "nay" group with limited say.

    One point was the reason high park is selected is because there is already a local scene there, so what you'll end up with in 2 yrs after the city stops surveillance is another set of jumps. Everybody should be accommodated to the best of our abilities.

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    i didn't see you at the meeting?
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Further, if this issue is so important why didn't this group red power occupy the parking lot in question.

    An interesting question. So far it seems, for some reason unknown to me, they're selectively out to block bmx and mtb peeps, which makes them a special interest "nay" group with limited say.

    One point was the reason high park is selected is because there is already a local scene there, so what you'll end up with in 2 yrs after the city stops surveillance is another set of jumps. Everybody should be accommodated to the best of our abilities.
    To a point. The biggest issue I see with this stuff is how mtbers spend so much effort being apologetic, accomodating to everyone else, and so on. This isn't 1985 when we where the new trail users, it's 2011 and soon to be 2012. That's 20 plus years later. And no interest group is being accomodating to us.. they all want what they want. And they will push their agenda.

    Sure it sounds easy to give up on the parking lot. I can see what happens next, a site 150 over is picked and suddenly that is a no go because what ever the nay's come up with.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    i didn't see you at the meeting?
    I don't think I saw you at the meeting either, but I was there nevertheless!

    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    To a point. The biggest issue I see with this stuff is how mtbers spend so much effort being apologetic, accomodating to everyone else, and so on. This isn't 1985 when we where the new trail users, it's 2011 and soon to be 2012. That's 20 plus years later. And no interest group is being accomodating to us.. they all want what they want. And they will push their agenda.

    Sure it sounds easy to give up on the parking lot. I can see what happens next, a site 150 over is picked and suddenly that is a no go because what ever the nay's come up with.
    Well, to a certain extent mtb/imba/torba whomever is politely going to have to get in somebody's face so we get our fair share. Somewhat being latecomers we're at a disadvantage there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    To a point. The biggest issue I see with this stuff is how mtbers spend so much effort being apologetic, accomodating to everyone else, and so on. This isn't 1985 when we where the new trail users, it's 2011 and soon to be 2012. That's 20 plus years later. And no interest group is being accomodating to us.. they all want what they want. And they will push their agenda.

    Sure it sounds easy to give up on the parking lot. I can see what happens next, a site 150 over is picked and suddenly that is a no go because what ever the nay's come up with.
    you don't go to the meetings, you don't help out at the the builds... you don't even vote as far as i know... what you say has little value since you were not at the meeting or at any of the builds. i'm very proud of the mtb community in toronto and the empaty to other stakeholders that was shown during the meeting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    you don't go to the meetings, you don't help out at the the builds... you don't even vote as far as i know... what you say has little value since you were not at the meeting or at any of the builds. i'm very proud of the mtb community in toronto and the empaty to other stakeholders that was shown during the meeting.
    I'll respond this once to you.

    Go ahead and whine to a mod like a child.

    People like Justin and others are much more respectful of other trail users then you are. They view that whether you build or anything have a say. All that attitrude does is drives people away. Right now you are no different then what Tim with your attitude.

    Everyone who uses trails has a say. To exclude them based on if they showed up at a meeting, voted, or did anything according to your standards. It's tired and old. And excludes people.

    It is this very attitude you have like Tim that drives people like me away. It makes me less inclined to be involved in any capacity. At one point was doing trail work i the Don despite living in Kingston over 200km's away. But thanks to attitude like this from Tim I walked away.

    So despite emailing the city since I have other commitments like family. And stuff like that is not enough according to your holiness. You win.. I will not help in any capacity not even an email for stuff like this in Onario. Good job in driving people off when you need numbers.

    And back to ignore you go.

  72. #72
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    No idea what thats about... but check this out.

    imba-acknowledges-existence-of-clandestine-hit-squad/

    I will go on record here, and probably have the IMBA hit squads come to snuff me out for it, but I believe that poaching trails is a necessary and, relatively speaking, harmless act of civil disobedience. If nobody ever poached a single trail, we mountain bikers, the Johnny-come-last group of outdoor recreation seekers, would slowly and quietly be shunted out of the vast majority of public lands. And if every one of us obeyed the law, nobody would ever complain about it happening.
    WTF Enduramil... you been reading people's minds or what?

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    No idea what thats about... but check this out.

    imba-acknowledges-existence-of-clandestine-hit-squad/



    WTF Enduramil... you been reading people's minds or what?
    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/34ag4nkSh7Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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    hold on a second, i thought i was on the ignore... come pull your weight at a build to redeem yourself instead of kvetching all the time...

    interesting the aboriginal tribe of my heritage has a name for you "hoykh katshke"

    hey brian was at the meeting, big respect and sticking up for the cause ...

    tim is doing his job very well and i have great respect for him. every trail build i go to he is always there...

    we all have commitments and responsibilities like jobs/family yet we still make time... perhaps you should complain less on the interwebs and you will have more time... anyway i'm off to do some trail building this morning...

    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    I'll respond this once to you.

    Go ahead and whine to a mod like a child.

    People like Justin and others are much more respectful of other trail users then you are. They view that whether you build or anything have a say. All that attitrude does is drives people away. Right now you are no different then what Tim with your attitude.

    Everyone who uses trails has a say. To exclude them based on if they showed up at a meeting, voted, or did anything according to your standards. It's tired and old. And excludes people.

    It is this very attitude you have like Tim that drives people like me away. It makes me less inclined to be involved in any capacity. At one point was doing trail work i the Don despite living in Kingston over 200km's away. But thanks to attitude like this from Tim I walked away.

    So despite emailing the city since I have other commitments like family. And stuff like that is not enough according to your holiness. You win.. I will not help in any capacity not even an email for stuff like this in Onario. Good job in driving people off when you need numbers.

    And back to ignore you go.
    Last edited by singlesprocket; 10-22-2011 at 05:01 AM.
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    Two fair and balanced, even positive, articles in two weeks. Dramatically different results than for bicycling on pavement, where the senior editors alternate between the two extremes of preaching to the converted and baiting/trolling the cyclists.

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    I couldn't make the meeting for obvious reasons (I haven't even touched a bike in two weeks! ) but I was really happy to read this article in the paper on Saturday morning. Thanks to everyone that did attend. I'm really looking forward to seeing where this project goes!
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

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    Stupid internnet connection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    i didn't see you at the meeting?
    no, but i saw you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I don't think I saw you at the meeting either, but I was there nevertheless!



    Well, to a certain extent mtb/imba/torba whomever is politely going to have to get in somebody's face so we get our fair share. Somewhat being latecomers we're at a disadvantage there.
    sorry for the misunderstanding, you are not the person i was refering to. but representation was good so it is not an issue for all concerned.
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  82. #82
    humber river advocate
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    Quote Originally Posted by cracker77 View Post
    no, but i saw you.
    damn propagation of the thread, wasn't refering to you, sorry. but turn out was good so no matter.
    broadcasting from
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  83. #83
    No. Just No.
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    damn propagation of the thread, wasn't refering to you, sorry. but turn out was good so no matter.
    If you would all stop dressing as ninjas when attending advocacy meetings we wouldn't be having this problem of trying to figure out who was or wasn't there. See actual picture from Oct 19th meeting below. Very confusing.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  84. #84
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    You know what y'all need? Name tags.


  85. #85
    namagomi
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    I'd stop dressing like a ninja, except it's way too much fun.

  86. #86
    No. Just No.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    You know what y'all need? Name tags.
    Nice.

    I feel like that sometimes during apres ride socials e.g. Who are you people? Can you all just put your helmets back on and sit on your bikes so I can understand who everyone is???

  87. #87
    Team NFI
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I'd stop dressing like a ninja, except it's way too much fun.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    If you would all stop dressing as ninjas when attending advocacy meetings we wouldn't be having this problem of trying to figure out who was or wasn't there. See actual picture from Oct 19th meeting below. Very confusing.
    i think we should all wear our full face helmets...
    broadcasting from
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  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Nice.

    I feel like that sometimes during apres ride socials e.g. Who are you people? Can you all just put your helmets back on and sit on your bikes so I can understand who everyone is???
    sometimes it is like... i didn't picture that person with that type of hair... long pants? ack!
    broadcasting from
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  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    i think we should all wear our full face helmets...
    I don't own a full face helmet. Clearly, you're trying to exclude people such as myself from the community.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    I don't own a full face helmet. Clearly, you're trying to exclude people such as myself from the community.
    here you can wear this funny guy...

    broadcasting from
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  92. #92
    namagomi
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    Speaking of a circus, are we getting on of these?

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Speaking of a circus, are we getting on of these?
    only if we power the pa system and wet bar from it...
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    build trail!

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