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  1. #1
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    Nationals course

    Since I was asked to provide a quick review of the course, here is my take on the Sport course (course C):

    The first half is really nice, flowy and fast. You might wonder what is the big deal, but soon you get your answer and it starts with the Joyride feature where you have to make a small gap jump into a smooth transition. It is however intimidating and I can see many riders taking the alternate route. Hey, better live to ride another lap rather than kill yourself. I did the jump on the first lap and almost did an endo due to slow speed. The second lap I took the alternate route and I realized it is much slower. The third lap I found my manhood, and did the jump again. Then I did it 5 more times, to ensure my manhood remains with me.

    So after this feature the fitness section of the course starts and it continues to the end. There are some good climbs, nice technical riding and good places to pass (or be passed). Most technical features provide some alternate route that might cost you a bit of time. I think this is the right approach since not everyone is willing to risk it.

    The course is standard Hardwood Hills Canada Cup stuff minus the Boneshaker, which we did in past years on singlespeed. But this year single speed and Sport do the same course.

    Even if you don't plan to race, ride the course because it is fun, technical and represents the best of XC riding.
    Last edited by serious; 07-02-2013 at 03:43 AM.
    My rides:
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  2. #2
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    Nationals course

    Thanks for the early update on the course. Looking forward to getting up there to preride it as well.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  3. #3
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    That sounds excellent! I'm excited!!
    Thanks for the review, serious.

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    Thanks Tom. I will ensure I bring my cojones with me....
    Strava made me do it....

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    Re: Nationals course

    I was up riding it on Sunday. A tough course physically because the climbing and a fun course technically.

    Serious is right, there are easy options that will cost time (including Deena's Joyride) but I don't think there is anything that cant be worked out with a preride. I suppose the tricky part will be cleaning them while exhausted.

  6. #6
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    Great course, fast and has some great technical parts, that rock drop they put before the boneshaker was turning heads when I was there for sure!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unkown View Post
    Great course, fast and has some great technical parts, that rock drop they put before the boneshaker was turning heads when I was there for sure!
    prerode the course - and like it. Wish we did more of the Elite course, except for that rock. Those that have enough skills - make it look really easy. However - few guys ate it large so far.

    I like the Joyride section with the wooden berm and a couple of jumps before it. Nice opportunity to catch some air. I didn't think climbing was an issue in the second half of the course, though the "grunt" will cause some pain towards the end. The good thing about it that it is close to the end of the lap... Loved the coffee run, as always.

    We were lucky today - no rain at all in the morning, unlike just few KMs south and in the GTA.
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  9. #9
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    That does look like a pretty big rock! :O
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    That does look like a pretty big rock! :O
    I predict some investing in new drive train components will occur courtesy of this section.

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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    That does look like a pretty big rock! :O
    Not going to lie...I was afraid to try it. :-/

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    That video makes it look so easy - just a little drop, then pop your front tire over the log and you're on with the rest of your day. Standing there looking at it, I'm kind of glad I'm running the Sport category.

  13. #13
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    I went back on Saturday to do the course on my singlespeed bike (the previous weekend I did it with gears and front suspension using my GF Superfly). I did 5 laps, no walking anywhere and that grunt climb was very hard.

    Only 1 lap was done at race pace (that would be 28.5 minutes for me) and by the time I reached the grunt climb I thought I was going to pass out. Walking may be faster and easier. But that won't be a problem for me. This time I am racing with gears in my own age group (50-54). Let's call it an experiment in sanity.
    My rides:
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    It just became easier for Emily

    Pendrel's blog has a photo of Catherine in a sling, she broke her collarbone. So it's the battle for 2nd place at Sudbury & Barrie

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    Finally got the chance to pre-ride last night.

    I really enjoyed it. In the absence of being a national of champion, at least I shall have fun and leave with a smile on my face.

    The joy-ride section is super-duper fun. The wall ride is buttery smooth and lets you rail right out of there.

    There are a couple little steep ups toward the end. Not much of an option but to just hammer them. If I ain't feeling them by the last lap, then I didn't push myself enough.

    Can't wait till Sat/Sun (both spectating and racing)

  16. #16
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    To those of you racing this weekend - have fun, good luck and suffer well!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor View Post
    Finally got the chance to pre-ride last night.
    How was the big rock of doom?
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    How was the big rock of doom?
    There are 4 significant 'rocks' in the course. Sometimes it's hard to know which is which.

    Rock 1 - The joyride rock jump. This is at the end of Coffee-run. You ride up onto a rock, then it's small gap drop to a smooth transition. This is followed by two little jumps after, then into the wall ride. This was all good. It's pretty intimidating when you first look at it. It appears the rock is going to send you off into the abyss. But once you approach it, you barely notice you leave the ground. I think this is in Courses A (elite), C (sport), D (expert)

    Rock 1 - 'Endo Rock'. Me thinks this is in courses A, C and D as well. This is a big rock up and over. I approached it on my first lap actually thinking there would be a ride down the back side (I never caught the name). There wasn't, I left a few scraps on the rock from my chain(rings) and had a nice ballerina dismount when I went to crest it. I looked at it for a second from the other side and realized, since you went straight up, then it was essentially straight down 2 ft on the other side to flat, it was a disaster waiting to happen for me. Notably with race noggin. Ride around didn't seem much longer. So that's a no go.

    Rock of Doom - I think this is the entry to the top of bone shaker for only the A course. I looked at it, but given I didn't have much time and it wasn't in my course, didn't spend any time on it. EDIT: This is the one in the video below.

    Rockgarden - There is a tricky little rock garden near to the feed zones (coming in the second time). It starts with two rather large rocks that are placed about 20 inches apart. Just enough to trap a wheel. There are a few rocks after the second rock, plus a slight corner. It seems like if you gave it a little jump off the first one, you could clear on the second one. The problem is, you need enough speed, but then you have to contest with the other rocks and the bit of a corner. I went in to slow, got my front wheel over, but the back one didn't have enough and smashed it pretty hard. I tried a second time as there's a bit of another line in sideways, but it wasn't smooth at all. Made a decision that I'll take the extra 2 seconds on the ride around.

    Other notable features in the D course were.

    - Long skinny as one line, or a ride around. Cleaned it just fine both times, but curious what happens when my heart rate is 20 beats higher.

    - Large diagonal, downhill log-over into a wooden bridge. No issues, and I was actually riding behind a guy who did the ride around and I certainly carried way more speed out of that section.

    - Lower boneshaker. Bumpy, but fine. Certainly takes skill to ride it at speed, but if you take it easy, not much about it.

    - Speed bumps at the end of the dual course. They are mildly awkward, with spacing.

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  20. #20
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    I guess taken on their own, those don't look too terrible but on laps 3,4 and/or 5, I bet it could get all kinds of messy!
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

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    I agree with all sydor said. Risk reward wasnt high enough on endo drop for me. I did find the diagonal log a little troublesome just due to lining up the small bridge after it.

    The joyride section makes me feel like a star! Lol. All in all the best race course I have been on. Loved the high speed and technical bits mixed in.

  22. #22
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    Just a heads up. Just saw there is a Tornado alert for north of the Barrie area right now.

    Tornado watch issued for parts of central Ontario - Canada - CBC News

    Keep safe guys.

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    Really nasty up my way too. Was working at sauble beach today and was about to go for s end of work swim and with in 5 min it got really scary.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by machine4321 View Post
    Really nasty up my way too. Was working at sauble beach today and was about to go for s end of work swim and with in 5 min it got really scary.
    Yikes, it looks like a great big red blob of death on radar.

    Supposed to blow through here this evening. You can literally see the cold front sweeping south.
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  25. #25
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    <a href="http://s48.photobucket.com/albums/f234/machine4321/?action=view&current=3920A61D-D2A1-40CB-878A-E16F89633B00-1340-000001B8857A8225_zpsdfd8615c.mp4" target="_blank"><img src="http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f234/machine4321/3920A61D-D2A1-40CB-878A-E16F89633B00-1340-000001B8857A8225_zpsdfd8615c.mp4" border="0" alt="Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos" /></a>

    Took that as it rolled in. Perfectly sunny just moments before



  26. #26
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    CptSydor: Rock 1 - 'Endo Rock'. Me thinks this is in courses A, C and D as well.

    In all my rides (Sport course) I never came across this piece of nastiness. I saw your video and at least I know to avoid it, if it is actually on the course, but I doubt it. They don't treat Sport riders that badly.
    My rides:
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  27. #27
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    Can anyone give us all an update on how the course holds up following the rain? Please post here....MTBmeister needs to know which tires to run :-)
    Strava made me do it....

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    Question about the bmx section at the end of the lap. Right before the dirt jumps, you can either go left over some concrete rollovers or right up and over some rollers. The concrete option had tape on both sides. Does this mean that will be the only option sunday or will both routes be in play?

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by machine4321 View Post


    Part of the storm hit us at about 1720 hrs. Exited the trails onto the road with nothing but sun. About 10 minutes later felt the air change and looked back and saw the leading edge. In about 5 minutes was here and winds picked up. Not exactly fun when you factor in a small tornado touched down on the outskirts of town last year.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued View Post
    Can anyone give us all an update on how the course holds up following the rain? Please post here....MTBmeister needs to know which tires to run :-)
    Rain is no problem at Hardwood. This course like a bit of rain.
    My rides:
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljohnston9 View Post
    Question about the bmx section at the end of the lap. Right before the dirt jumps, you can either go left over some concrete rollovers or right up and over some rollers. The concrete option had tape on both sides. Does this mean that will be the only option sunday or will both routes be in play?
    Not sure about that.
    My rides:
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  32. #32
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    The rain did a lot of good for the course (compaired to Wednesday).

    Managed to nail down all the features today in my pre-ride. No chicken lines are planned for tomorrow. That makes me

    Finished my gnocchi diner, ready to rock! 7 months in the making.

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    All the best to everyone this weekend and have fun!
    "By Your Command"

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    Cant wait!! Fun course.

    So whos racing sport 30-34? I Need to start being more social at the races.

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    I raced Master Sport 30-34 today. I was on a black Felt 29'r.

    Bit of pandemonium with combining the classes at the start, but it was a blast over all. Had a little too much fun "sending" it of the double. Wheel is mangled now lol

  36. #36
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    What a great weekend. Squeezing in a pre-ride lap just before the tornado, a few nights out in downtown Barrie with beers on the patio, some great performances from Ontario athletes on Saturday and of course racing in perfect temperatures on Sunday morning. Some good memories for sure.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smoke_Eater112 View Post
    I raced Master Sport 30-34 today. I was on a black Felt 29'r.

    Bit of pandemonium with combining the classes at the start, but it was a blast over all. Had a little too much fun "sending" it of the double. Wheel is mangled now lol
    I cant put a face to the bike , but I did notice it in the back of a truck when I pulled in. Said to my friend it was a nice looking bike!

    the group start is tough as I have no idea where I stood out there. Wasnt until coming through a lap they said what place I was in. On the first pass through Deenas my right foot came uncliped while trying to clear the double......It was a humorous recovery just before the wall ride.

    Loved this course and felt the best I have all year. Really hoping to eek out a podium before the end of the year. Been consistently getting closer each race.

  38. #38
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    I also enjoyed the race, but racing in my category (50-55), not so much. Since we started at the back I had tons of riders to pass and with so many people on the course it was a bit frustrating (but that was the case for everyone in my category so no worries). I guess I have been spoiled with the single speed category where we always start first.

    Nevertheless, I felt great and my old GF Superfly performed very well, even if it is less nimble and 5 lbs heavier than my single speed. Having a suspension fork was a major luxury on this course and I loved it. I may have to consider a suspension fork on the single speed eventually. Yeah, I am getting old.
    My rides:
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    KHS Team 29
    S-Works Roubaix SL3 Dura Ace
    KHS CX 550 cyclocross

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by machine4321 View Post
    I cant put a face to the bike , but I did notice it in the back of a truck when I pulled in. Said to my friend it was a nice looking bike!

    the group start is tough as I have no idea where I stood out there. Wasnt until coming through a lap they said what place I was in. On the first pass through Deenas my right foot came uncliped while trying to clear the double......It was a humorous recovery just before the wall ride.

    Loved this course and felt the best I have all year. Really hoping to eek out a podium before the end of the year. Been consistently getting closer each race.
    Thats awesome that you saved it! It seemed like a lot of people had trouble with that section. Great advertising for Joyride. I expect a mass influx of O-cup ppl over the winter on honing skills on the pump track and jump line

    I never really had a problem with that section, but I did have half a tree get stuck in my wheel/cassette after leading into the woods right after the start. Had to get off and fix it which added a lot of anxiety. Managed to dig deep after remounting mid pack and catch the leader of my category on the second. I then proceeded to tuck the front wheel and have a small crash and loose the lead again. Caught him for good on the third lap and made the pass stick on the start climb. My legs were in spasms towards the finish. Seeing as this is my first year racing anything "O-cup", I have no idea how guys hold that pace in Expert for another lap. Not looking forward to that jump!

    If it was a white F150 you saw on the way in, that was me. Thanks for the compliment. Stop by and say hi next time if Im around it. I wore a Spinsanity cycles kit (green/white) on sun.

  40. #40
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    I had double quad crap on the last lap going up the grunt. Stayed until the top of the hilly part at the top of the bmx section then went away. I am amazed watching anybody better then me race! What really gets me is the speed they go up climbs....lap after lap.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by machine4321 View Post
    I had double quad crap
    Ewwww... I think I saw that watching a triathlon on TV a couple of decades ago.

  42. #42
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    super fun course

    It was the perfect day for racing; weather was perfect for the 9.30 start, the course was nice and tacky thanks to Friday's downpour....
    Had a really good race, not the best one but I kinda knew that; 3 race in as many weeks took a toll on my legs...
    Finished the race with my best result, but not with my best performance, I never had the chance to challenge the rider ahead of me...
    Now I have to start thinking about winter training for next season,going up to 40-44 Expert.....

    But first, going back home to Hungary to visit our families for 3 weeks, no biking just bad calories and good times with the loved ones!!!

    See you guys at Horseshoe!!!!!

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by want to ride View Post
    Now I have to start thinking about winter training for next season,going up to 40-44 Expert.....
    Actually the OCA has you as a mandatory, in-season upgrade. Which I believe means you will have to race Provincials as an Expert.
    Congrats on another great race.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedumbopinion View Post
    Actually the OCA has you as a mandatory, in-season upgrade. Which I believe means you will have to race Provincials as an Expert.
    Congrats on another great race.
    Thanks.
    We'll see what's next.... I really hope that the OCA will let me finish this season in sport..
    Request sent yesterday I'm waiting for a positive decision..😀😀
    It is just bad timing, 3 weeks off and less than 1 month to get back to race shape to do
    4 laps first time I'm my life....
    I'm not sure I want to do that.

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    I cant imagine a 4th lap....well I can, it would involve alot of walking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thedumbopinion View Post
    Actually the OCA has you as a mandatory, in-season upgrade.
    This is new (ish?). They used to allow you to delay the upgrade until the end of the season. If you are required to upgrade mid-season, how can they award a series championship? Then the person with the most points over the season would actually be the person who started the season third best (or similar). I wonder why they changed?

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    I agree with the mandatory early upgrade. There have been cases in the past where one person was winning every sport race by over 5 minutes. That's not fair.

    When someone is ahead of the sport group by that much of a margin, they're effectively not even in the same race. They are taking someone else's sport victory and denying the experts a chance to race against quality competition.

    With no disrespect intended, sport is a stepping stone. A win in sport is still a win, but the winner is not the champion, who will be the expert (or elite) in the same age group. This is why only the experts get a championship jersey.

    To stay in sport when you are destroying your competition is borderline cheating, as far as I'm concerned. It's unethical and disrespectful, both to the sport athletes you're leaving in the dust and the expert athletes who are waiting to spank you.

    The OCA will accommodate early upgrades where appropriate. I've done it 3 times. Once in road, twice in cyclocross. That is always the correct course of action.

    For the record, I'm not sure I agree with the mandatory upgrade system as it is. In my opinion, it should be mandatory for 300 points and optional for less.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnikcdn View Post
    For the record, I'm not sure I agree with the mandatory upgrade system as it is. In my opinion, it should be mandatory for 300 points and optional for less.
    I really like the idea of adding a third points category. It can distinguish between riders who are good and riders who are excellent. Or rides who were battling for a top 5 but finish on the podium after 1 or 2 have upgraded.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnikcdn View Post

    For the record, I'm not sure I agree with the mandatory upgrade system as it is. In my opinion, it should be mandatory for 300 points and optional for less.
    That is sounds about right, if you cleaning out your category race after race I do understand the upgrade...
    That is not the case in my situation, I just fast enough to reach the podium consistently...
    I got more than 3 minutes from the winner 3 out of 4 times...

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedumbopinion View Post
    I really like the idea of adding a third points category. It can distinguish between riders who are good and riders who are excellent. Or rides who were battling for a top 5 but finish on the podium after 1 or 2 have upgraded.
    I think the points competition and upgrade points categories are enough. I think you should be forced to upgrade immediately upon any the following conditions being met:

    300 upgrade points
    Winning any single race by more than 5 minutes
    Upon request and subject to review

    As well, there should be an option for certain athletes to skip sport altogether. This year, there were 2 racers who came from singlespeed and cx and destroyed their competition at the first Ocup. The CX rider would have won nationals in 30-39 but for an unfortunate incident with a spectator 3 years ago. This year he was forced to race sport in mtb. The other was clearly an expert level singlespeeder. Fortunately, both requested and were granted early upgrades. Unfortunately, those were 2 second places that should have been first.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by machine4321 View Post
    I cant imagine a 4th lap....well I can, it would involve alot of walking.
    We are on the same page...

  52. #52
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    The gap between the top five in Sport and same in Expert is enormous depending on your category. I have learned this so far this season. While I never really thought I could duplicate a top three finish in my first season in Expert, or perhaps ever for that matter...I thought with the training effort I am putting in, I would be closer than I am.

    It's a tough balancing act for the OCA in some cases. I really think that they should also look at the history of some racers. There are those out there that have raced expert in the past and perhaps have taken time away from OCUPs, but not racing. And they come back and kill the competition in sport. It takes away from those that are earning their stripes in Sport to get to Expert.

    Then there's the case of a friend of mine that would have won my category last year had he entered another race (he did four) and finished. This year he didn't enter the series due to other priorities and they wouldn't let him enter Mansfield as an Expert. He ultimately won the race in Sport and was trying to be honest about what group he should race in. And he took a spot on the podium from another Sport rider.

    WTR, if you have the mandatory for the next race at Duntroon and Provincials, it will be nice to line up at the start line with you again!
    A bad day on the bike is better than a good day doing anything else...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmeister View Post
    It's a tough balancing act for the OCA in some cases. I really think that they should also look at the history of some racers. There are those out there that have raced expert in the past and perhaps have taken time away from OCUPs, but not racing. And they come back and kill the competition in sport. It takes away from those that are earning their stripes in Sport to get to Expert.

    Then there's the case of a friend of mine that would have won my category last year had he entered another race (he did four) and finished. This year he didn't enter the series due to other priorities and they wouldn't let him enter Mansfield as an Expert. He ultimately won the race in Sport and was trying to be honest about what group he should race in. And he took a spot on the podium from another Sport rider.
    It is a tough situation. I still think that, once you've upgraded, you should not be allowed back. Frankly you shouldn't want to be allowed back... See my above comments re: sandbagging is cheating.

    The corollary to this is that you should be allowed to race expert up to 3 times with a day license, like you can for sport. (I don't think this is possible though, because experts are subject to UCI regulations over the OCA)

  54. #54
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    Can the OCA actually force you to upgrade? In the 50-55 Sport category there are 5 people looking at mandatory upgrade. Something tells me that they are staying in Sport and going for the overall. And who can blame them?

    Personally I can see both sides of the argument. In the end it is easier to race in single speed where they accept everybody from elite to sport from men to women. They might as well accept geared riders and trust them to stay in one gear.
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  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious View Post
    In the end it is easier to race in single speed where they accept everybody from elite to sport from men to women. They might as well accept geared riders and trust them to stay in one gear.
    A bunch of hippies, the whole lot of ya.

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    It is tough. I starte beginner last year never won a race but ended up 2nd in points and happy to upgrade. Sport was a tough go with the extra lap+ more km per lap, but I need that goal to get up with the faster guys. I have got to a legit 5th place(legit meaning there was a good amout of racers in my class) and I want to keep going harder for a podium. The leader in my cat is still 10min ahead... That seems like a lot to me but only 2 races ago they were about 15 min. I would be a bit upset to see them be forced up as they are te ones making me want to race harder. There seems to be a good battle going on in the
    Sport 30-34 with a group of three or four riders. They are always fighting for spots with each other. It does kinda feel like there 2 groups in the cat but I welcome the challange.
    BUT lol that might leave some room up there for me.....

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    The important point to keep in mind for sport athletes is that you have your races and your series, but the winner of those races and that series is NOT the champion. There is a group of riders your age who you didn't even get to race against, on a more challenging course, with an extra lap.

    Once you upgrade, you'll understand better... I really hope none of you take this as disparaging, but for the reason above a sport victory has little meaning, except to other sport athletes.

    This is another reason for early upgrades.

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    This also brings up a good point about elite/ master expert.

    Any elite rider over 30 is eligible to drop out of that category and race in the Master Expert 30-39 category, which is a championship category. Most pro-cyclists are still at their peak 30-35.

    I actually think it's silly to have masters start at 30. I would think 40 is the place to start it (or maybe 35).

    I find it funny that I was competing for the national title of 30-39 year olds but there were a bunch of elites my age chasing that title.

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    I totally agree with this. The 30-34 age group is at their racing peak.

    The road/CX masters categories start at 35.

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    I totally agree with you. Even now people who dont ride think its amazing to place well province wide, hiw ever I am quick to point out that there is much better and much tougher levels above mine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by machine4321 View Post
    I totally agree with you. Even now people who dont ride think its amazing to place well province wide, hiw ever I am quick to point out that there is much better and much tougher levels above mine.
    In general I think the O-Cups are way overcategorized. I'd like to see some kind of ability-based categories for the experts. Over 30 and not racing Elite? Master 1, 2 or 3 based on the last two seasons' points.

    There seems to be a core group of 3-5 people in each expert category constantly battling each other. It would be great to have three or four of these groups come together and have a very solid top fifteen or so. It would make the series much more interesting and each position more meaningful. As it stands I'm pretty bored with the O-Cups and I know I'm not alone.

    Kids, Juniors, Elites then the rest of us. With a beginner/sport system feeding things.

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    This debate has been going on for a long time with road/cx. The problem with going to pure ability based categories is that a 50+ year old could be expected to race against a 35 yr. old for a championship. Clearly unfair.

    However, for beginners it is a better system.... A 50 year old beginner in half decent shape could keep up in an M3 road race. If there was an open 50+ category, beginners would be shelled off the back, become discouraged and probably not return.

    Mtb has a hybrid age/ability based category system. Fortunately, in Ontario we have enough athletes so that this is reasonable, with a few exceptions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnikcdn View Post
    This debate has been going on for a long time with road/cx. The problem with going to pure ability based categories is that a 50+ year old could be expected to race against a 35 yr. old for a championship. Clearly unfair.

    However, for beginners it is a better system.... A 50 year old beginner in half decent shape could keep up in an M3 road race. If there was an open 50+ category, beginners would be shelled off the back, become discouraged and probably not return.

    Mtb has a hybrid age/ability based category system. Fortunately, in Ontario we have enough athletes so that this is reasonable, with a few exceptions.
    If the 50yr old and the 35yr old are of similar ability then it's not unfair. Someone's age doesn't say much about their fitness/skill.

    The ability-based system would likely only apply at the provincial level. On the whole, I think age-group championships are kind of silly anyway, but the national championships could be categorized along traditional lines anyway.

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    Actually, I disagree, all else being equal, a 35 yr old has a huge physiological advantage over a 50 yr old and far more over a 60 yr old. That's why we have age based categories at the masters level.

    For a physiologically average 50 yr old to beat a physiologically average 35 yr old the 50 yr old would have to train far harder, longer and better.

    I myself have noticed a significant drop off in recovery and high end power since I started racing at 39. I'm now 46.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmeister View Post
    WTR, if you have the mandatory for the next race at Duntroon and Provincials, it will be nice to line up at the start line with you again!
    We have to wait till next year for that....

    Even if I have to go up, I'll be in the 30-39 category,for the rest of this season.
    From next year I'll try to catch you,although I know it's a tall order!!

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    Nationals course

    Sure, but fast is fast regardless of age. "All else being equal" then yes, the 35 year old will likely beat the 50 year old, but in the weekend warrior Ontario expert world all else is rarely equal. A 50 year old using 100% of their capacity will stick it to a good number of younger people who don't train as much. Let fast people fight with other fast people. The Ontario road thing isn't perfect but I'd welcome it to the MTB series.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnikcdn View Post
    The important point to keep in mind for sport athletes is that you have your races and your series, but the winner of those races and that series is NOT the champion. There is a group of riders your age who you didn't even get to race against, on a more challenging course, with an extra lap.

    Once you upgrade, you'll understand better... I really hope none of you take this as disparaging, but for the reason above a sport victory has little meaning, except to other sport athletes.

    This is another reason for early upgrades.
    I'm not sure about this.... That's why we have the Sport and the Expert categories to make sure that people with same abilities are fighting for the points and try to get better.
    A sport series winner shouldn't say that "I'm the Ontario Champion" but he or she deserves at least a nod and a little bit of respect from other riders.

    Whoever participating in this series all knows what it means to be the series winner in Sport Category....
    Those results are hard earned results on a lower level,but still a lot of work has to be done in order to get them.....

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnikcdn View Post
    The important point to keep in mind for sport athletes is that you have your races and your series, but the winner of those races and that series is NOT the champion. There is a group of riders your age who you didn't even get to race against, on a more challenging course, with an extra lap.
    But the same difference can be made between experts and elites. It is only a definition and completely arbitrary to say that a Sport winner is not a champion. The expert winner is not much of a champion when compared to elites, but we give them the recognition anyway.

    The reality is that for many (the LARGE majority actually) winning in expert is out of reach regardless of training. It is called LOFT (low on faking talent) or lack of genetics. As I always say, genetics determine your potential and hard work determines how close you get to your potential.
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  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by want to ride View Post
    I'm not sure about this.... That's why we have the Sport and the Expert categories to make sure that people with same abilities are fighting for the points and try to get better.
    A sport series winner shouldn't say that "I'm the Ontario Champion" but he or she deserves at least a nod and a little bit of respect from other riders.

    Whoever participating in this series all knows what it means to be the series winner in Sport Category....
    Those results are hard earned results on a lower level,but still a lot of work has to be done in order to get them.....
    I wholeheartedly agree with everything you say. My sport year was spectacular. It was my first year racing and I found myself in a 1-2 battle with a team-mate who was also a good friend at the time. We would help each other pre-riding and discuss strategies, hoping that we could always race each other at our best.

    I worked my ass off. I had never been so nervous before any race but the previous one that season. Didn't sleep for a week before Provincials, and winning it was one of the best days of my cycling career. And, I would have been almost as happy had my team-mate won, because I knew how hard he worked.

    This was pure competition, in the best possible way.

    However, as proud and happy I felt, I understood there was a whole category of cyclists the same age group as me who were riding a longer, tougher course at a higher speed. I couldn't wait to race them... and it sure was humbling!

    I have no intention of disparaging a sport result, but it is a stepping stone and if you're winning too easily, you're in the wrong category.

    I like the current system as is, with a hybrid of ability and age based categories, but I also believe there could be some fine tuning. I think there is too much sandbagging going on, either by the athletes' choice or by the OCA's strict interpretation of the letter of the rules over the spirit of the rules.

    Regarding serious's comment, strictly speaking, he's correct. There should be no "championship", but the one awarded the elites. Fortunately, there is a master's program so that older athletes can compete on a relatively equal footing. This is why I agree with age based championships.

    The women's over 50 category, even though it is called sport, should have a championship, because there is no expert category available.

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    I'm with PlanB on this one.

    Let the fast guys race the fast guys. (Although I think there should be a grand master, 50+ distinction).

    There are too many divisions, with people having the same capacity, racing at similar speeds, but not racing each other (like the top riders in the 30-39 and 40-49 expert, but make master 35+).

    I know for me personally, there are tonne of 40-49 guys that I could have some great battles with (though likely that would be the 2nd division, like an M2). That would make the whole thing better. Tuesday nights at Kelso there are no age categories and I tend have better battles there than at OCUPS.

    More than anything, can we get rid of all the divisions at the relay races (8 and 24 hours). Do we need a mini-clydsdale, 150-154 age group, under 5'8 category?

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    And while we're changing the system, can we bring back an E3 race in cyclocross!

    I'm one of those people still actually in the paradox of being senior in road, but master in MTB. I want to do more CX racing this year, by my options (with an E3 license) are beginner or Elite. 40 versus 60 minutes, true beginners versus pros! Can't wait till I can convert my E3 to an M2 next year. That is where I belong.

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