View Poll Results: Verdict?

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32. You may not vote on this poll
  • The slow guy show get the frig out of the way.

    22 68.75%
  • The pro guy should cool his jets and enjoy the ride.

    10 31.25%
Results 1 to 43 of 43
  1. #1
    Evil Jr.
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    Miss Manners Poll: Passing Etiquette Video Edition!

    Saw this on BikeRumor this morning. Warning: it's NSFW (language) and ends fairly violently.

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/OPLYStAuZt0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    So tell me, putting the assault aside (violence is wrong, m'kay) which rider has more of your sympathy? Surely you can relate to both situations. What's more annoying: the slug hogging your line or the superstar crowding your rear wheel?
    Last edited by garage monster; 04-24-2012 at 06:40 AM. Reason: forgot to embed video!
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  2. #2
    veldrijder
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    Seems to me the rider with the camera was quite nice about the whole thing and asked nicely to pass many times.

    He didn't try to force the pass, resulting in this (admittedly everyone here was fine after and laughed it off):

  3. #3
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    Neither of them has my sympathy as both of them acted like peckerheads in the video. The guy in front was riding the trail at his own pace and being a peckerhead in refusing to acknowledge the rider behind him and allowing him to pass. The camera guy upon being ignored could've used the trail branches to pass the other guy, but didn't, and the worst part is he had a clear chance to pass after rear-ending the guy in front just after 3:20 in the video. At that point, camera guy could've easily gone in front and continued down the trail while the other guy was halted, but instead he chose to do a loop-around and redo a section of trail, then flips his lid and wonders why he's stuck behind the other guy again. Both of them deserve to be flogged with a chainwhip.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerumour
    This morning, April 23, 45 year old Aaron William Dalton, admitted to assault in court.
    Open and shut case.

    Let's be Harsh: Noob knew the guy was back there for a mile, and his fragile little ego couldn't take being passed.

    When I'm at Blue and I hear rumbling earth behind me, I wave them by immediately.. practically speaking, the 2-second delay that it takes to let them by is more than made up for by the brief chance to follow and learn from someone faster, even if they seem to be vaguely out of control.

    That said, I don't really understand how the slow guy ended up in front of the gopro guy the second time.
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  5. #5
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    Both guys are acting like morons. The guy in the front should shoulder the bulk of the blame though. There were lots of places he could have shot over, slowed down a little and let the other guy go by. Those off shoots were a little short for a pass, but were perfect for letting someone go by and hardly loose any speed. By the same token, I was surprised to see the camera guy behind the slow guy again. I thought he had passed him. I have had people let me pass and let others pass lots of times over the years without any issues. The guy with the camera was probably trying to get a good run in and lost sight of common sense or courtesy by riding up the guys butt once he saw he could not get by him. The slow guy could have just shot over at any point and let the pass take place so he is really at fault.

  6. #6
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    Slower traffic should always let the faster guys go back. It's courtesy, but apparently a dying notion. Being a jerk to people often results in a jerk response.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocruiser View Post
    That said, I don't really understand how the slow guy ended up in front of the gopro guy the second time.
    The first time they stopped, they had both cut out a short loop of trail. Slow Rock Shox Guy went left, continuing on the trial. Fast(er) GoPro Guy turned right, took the loop the wrong way, realized what he had done, took the short cut again, continuing on the trail.

    I do not condone violence ever, and Slow Rock Shox Guy will get what is coming to him (hopefully) in the legal system. The end part of the video was quite disturbing as Slow Rock Shox Guy descended on Fast(er) GoPro Guy.

    But Fast(er) GoPro Guy was pushing all sorts of buttons along with way. I would suggest that this could have been avoided by: (i) taking one of the many ride arounds; (ii) realizing that Slow Rock Shox Guy isn't going to give way, stopping, taking a rest, letting a gap build up, and then carrying on; and (iii) riding slowly and shutting the F up. While I don't condone violence ever, I do recognize that there are situations where violence will come easily if cooler head don't prevail. They didn't prevail here.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocruiser View Post
    That said, I don't really understand how the slow guy ended up in front of the gopro guy the second time.
    I think the slow guy must of took a short cut to get in front of him again. As the faster rider came up behind him a 2nd time, he did mention something about that. In this incident I think most of the blame belongs to the front rider especially if he went back in front of the guy on purpose. As for the faster rider well, sometimes you just have to slow down and enjoy the ride, after all its only one run and not worth the hassle.
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  9. #9
    I dd what you see there.
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    If this were a race, the guy in front is to blame.

    If this is just a Sunday afternoon ride, the guy with the camera is to blame.
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  10. #10
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    Rockshox guy had numerous chances to the faster ride pass without spoiling his own ride and failed to take any of then. Then when GoPro guy called him on it at the end of the trail, rather than discussing this in a civilized manner, apologizing, or walking away, he came right at him cursing a blue streak and punched him out.

    Regardless of whether the faster rider was being an @ss (and the "I could run you off the trail, you know" comment was definitely off-side), Rockshox guy could have been the bigger person, by letting the faster rider past AND by handling things differently at the end. By failing to do so, he ended up ruining what looked like an absolutely awesome descent for both of them.

    So my opinion is that they both suck, but Rockshox guy sucks way harder.
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  11. #11
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    It was interesting in the comments section to read the apparent divide between "if this was a real downhill run" and "if this was just a trail ride" .

    Suggesting that overtaking/overtaken etiquette should be different if one pedals vs. takes a lift to the top of the hill.

    Strange.
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  12. #12
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    It is an open and shut case. It's always wrong to threaten or initiate violence regardless of provocation. Also, trail etiquette is a guideline, not a law to be enforced with vigilante justice. If someone is hogging the passing lane on the highway, I don't have the right to bump them or even pass them unsafely. If there is no safe way to pass, I bite my tongue and switch the radio to Jazz. Same with bikes, I must relax and let them do their thing, their way.

    Dealing calmly with slowpokes and inconsiderate people is part of adulthood. Same goes for dealing with agressive riders spewing bile and invective. Both riders are wrong.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by XLNC View Post
    If this were a race, the guy in front is to blame.

    If this is just a Sunday afternoon ride, the guy with the camera is to blame.
    I totally agree. Even novice riders have the right to do a complete run unimpeded. Riders with racing skills can get around you safely in most cases. Looks like the go-pro guy either wasn't willing or wasn't trying. I think his ego got in the way.

    In a race, the guy in front is a danger to everyone, himself included. Racing skills in this case is still riding while allowing faster riders to pass.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    If there is no safe way to pass, I bite my tongue and switch the radio to Jazz. Same with bikes, I must relax and let them do their thing, their way.
    .
    Your bike has a radio?
    Strava made me do it....

  15. #15
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    Hmm... where have I seen something like this before?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued View Post
    Your bike has a radio?
    Raganwald on surface streets his way over to Dr. Quads;
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Miss Manners Poll: Passing Etiquette Video Edition!-bikes600.jpg  


  17. #17
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    So tell me, putting the assault aside (violence is wrong, m'kay) which rider has more of your sympathy? Surely you can relate to both situations. What's more annoying: the slug hogging your line or the superstar crowding your rear wheel?
    This is an easy one for me. The dude in the front is a giant ******bag and clearly has some anger management issues. There is etiquette and while it's not written in stone to let a fast rider by, it's a common courtesy and basic manners really.

    The dude with the cam started off polite and that wasn't working, so he altered his approach. Sure, he could slow down, but Mr. Anger Management Ego could have graciously tucked his ego back in in chamois and let the faster guy by. My blood was boiling just watching it and it's too bad that the camera guy appeared to be on the losing end of things in defending himself.
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  18. #18
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    Slow guy was an ass. There were several opportunities to allow the faster rider to pass. At the same time, I can't ignore the fact that the faster rider did bait the slower rider.

  19. #19
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    What REALLY shocked me about this video was after the initial assault the fast guy keeps yapping the Angry Slow Guy. And, sure enough, gets his arse kicked a second time! I saw this in the NHL this playoff as well when Dominic Moore keeps shooting his mouth off while lying prone under Sobotka's menacing right hand. Moore ended up with a broken nose...

    Did these guys have male parental figures? Why have grown men not learned this lesson? I try to impart it on my 6 year old and 11 year old as often as I can - your flapping gums are the biggest threat to your own physical well being. When in a vulnerable position, SHUT YOUR MOUTH. Simple.

    Although the slow guy was a rude basturd, I would like to have seen that smug yappy pr!ck get sodomized with his own camera. The dude was obviously aggresive, if you don't want to be assaulted, walk away.
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  20. #20
    No. Just No.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmeister View Post
    The dude in the front is a giant ******bag and clearly has some anger management issues.
    Not my handiwork but...
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Not my handiwork but...
    Looks quite familiar, but just can't quite put a name to that fellow
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  22. #22
    Chamois Dropper
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    I believe it is common courtesy to let a faster guy pass, but what fun is it to ride a trail with someone faster than you breathing down your neck,chomping at the bit to get past? Let him go, then try to match his pace, might show you something that can improve your skills.

  23. #23
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    lots of spots for the slow guy to take a bypass section without slowing his own ride down which look like they were built for just this type of situation.
    i think he was just ignorant.

    i don't like my voting options though because i agree with both options.
    if i was the fast guy and realizing the situation i would pick option 2

    therefore i choose not to vote

    and living in a democracy i always preach to my kids that if you don't vote you have no reason to complain either way.
    so everything i just said is errelevant.

  24. #24
    No. Just No.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    Slow guy was an ass. There were several opportunities to allow the faster rider to pass. At the same time, I can't ignore the fact that the faster rider did bait the slower rider.
    Yep, seems obvious that slower guy is more in the wrong for resorting to assault but both need to take a look in the mirror and examine the ways in which they each could have exercised some sort of blow off valve in their respective actions to avoid the outcome we see in the vid. Seems to me like both were more interested in teaching the other a lesson than they were in avoiding the situation. Not to say that knowledge can't be shared on the fly to help educate fellow trail users, but there's some basic tact required, including recognizing scenarios in which the other party isn't going to be receptive.

    Not the first time (remember this gem fender bender freakout!!! Video - Pinkbike.com ? ***warning more potentially NSFW language depending on where you work ***) and won't be the last, but we can be fairly sure we'll be privy to more and more of these with the proliferation of POV cameras.

  25. #25
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    Both guys were asses, but I agree with XLNC and others -- if it's a race, slow guy is the bigger ass, if it's just a trail ride, camera guy is the bigger one.

    I see no tape, no bibs, no plates, no signs, and intersections everywhere.... Doesn't look like a race situation. If he's not racing against the clock -- even though trail etiquette says let faster riders by -- why the urgency to pass? If guy in front is uncooperative, wait a few minutes for slowpoke to clear the run and then resume the ride at the preferred pace. Or take a different route.

    There's being in the right, and then there's doing what's right.

    But yeah... both asses.
    Last edited by ray.vermette; 04-24-2012 at 08:02 PM.

  26. #26
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    This is telling.... Found on reddit:

    Poster: I'm not saying the OP didn't have the right to pass, I'm just saying this could have been avoided But really, you don't expect people to respond that way at all. Especially to a fellow mountain biker

    Camera Guy: Yeah, I agree, in hindsight I should've just waited....

  27. #27
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    At first I was sympathetic to the faster guy, he did ask politely a few times for a go around.

    Now the second part where he's like "I could run you off the trail" this is one of those context moments I guess.

    When someone doesn't respond to me, I usually up the level of derp until I get SOME sort of reaction, then once conversation is initiated I go back to being totally polite to indicate what I just said was totally absurd. Its my form of looking someone in the eye while driving to make sure they acknowledge my existence so we don't have any accidents.

    No reaction at all to ANY form of conversation is just overall rude unless you're suffering up some sort of hill and can't breath. But making it a point to get BACK in front of him and then block path again was just an indicator that he was looking for confrontation of some sort.

    Is it bad that I was more wanting to see more of that trail then see the resulting argument/assault?

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 14Stone View Post
    ...Is it bad that I was more wanting to see more of that trail then see the resulting argument/assault?
    Me too. Trail looked fun.

  29. #29
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    Having been the slowpoke and the speedster at various occaisions I have to side with the slow poke. Although the fisticuffs were off side. Speedster does not want his flow ruined and wants past slowpoke, who is most likely going as fast as they feel comfortable, and now must wreck their flow to accomadate the speedsters pass. Which seems to indicate that if you are faster you are entitled to a more flowy experience than the lesser thans that cant keep your pace, seems a little off to me. Hang back and let it rip or realize you can't always go at race pace (or as fast as you please) while on trails with others.
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  30. #30
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    I disagree. Slow guy must yield the trail to fast guy...

    ...except that slow guy, being up front (and so can see farther down the trail) gets to pick the yield spot where he gets over. Slow guy does not need to immediately stop or pull over, but must do so as soon as safely possible.

    If the trail is tight and technical, this may be some distance away from the point of first interaction.

    DG

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by canadian-clydesdale View Post
    Having been the slowpoke and the speedster at various occaisions I have to side with the slow poke. Although the fisticuffs were off side. Speedster does not want his flow ruined and wants past slowpoke, who is most likely going as fast as they feel comfortable, and now must wreck their flow to accomadate the speedsters pass. Which seems to indicate that if you are faster you are entitled to a more flowy experience than the lesser thans that cant keep your pace, seems a little off to me. Hang back and let it rip or realize you can't always go at race pace (or as fast as you please) while on trails with others.
    That's like suggesting it's okay to sit in the left lane of a 400 series highway doing 100km/h when it's totally not. Now there's no formal rules on the trail, but there is common etiquette which should be followed.

    I too have been both, and will most certainly get the heck out of the way when safe to do so.
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  32. #32
    More than a little slow
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    Quote Originally Posted by canadian-clydesdale View Post
    . Speedster does not want his flow ruined and wants past slowpoke, who is most likely going as fast as they feel comfortable, and now must wreck their flow to accomadate the speedsters pass. Which seems to indicate that if you are faster you are entitled to a more flowy experience than the lesser thans that cant keep your pace, seems a little off to me. Hang back and let it rip or realize you can't always go at race pace (or as fast as you please) while on trails with others.
    I don't think that letting someone pass you on a trail means that you have to have a lesser experience. See the quote below...

    Quote Originally Posted by secret agent View Post
    Both guys are acting like morons. The guy in the front should shoulder the bulk of the blame though. There were lots of places he could have shot over, slowed down a little and let the other guy go by. Those off shoots were a little short for a pass, but were perfect for letting someone go by and hardly loose any speed.
    Choosing a different (longer, slower, etc.) line through a section of trail surely shouldn't lesssen the experience. Being in front in a situation like that does mean that you are the one in control though. You get to decide where you're going to let the fast guy go through. And the whole process is a lot easier if the slower rider can communicate where this is going to happen or that it's not going to happen immediately, etc.
    'Course all of this assumes that both riders are fairly skilled, although going at different speeds ( which is the case here ).
    If it's a skilled rider coming up on an unskilled rider then sometimes you've gotta just suck it up and not try to force something that isn't going to happen, although to be honest most unskilled riders are more eager than they need to be in yielding the trail.
    Last edited by dskunk; 04-25-2012 at 03:51 PM.
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  33. #33
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    My vote is that they are both idiots.

    Physical stuff aside ....

    Slow guy for not owning up to the fact that someone might just be faster than him on the trail and letting speedy by to enjoy the trail equally.

    Fast guy for not taking advantage of the one opportunity to get in front of slow guy and then proceeding to get right back on his rear wheel and be a pita. Sorry you had your chance and elected to not get in front, ease off and chill out.

    Sick trail though!!!

  34. #34
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    I played the video this morning for my GF. Whereas I though the camera guy was the slightly bigger idiot, she took the side of the camera guy. Go figure....

    But unlike the two idiots in the video, instead of escalating things and then getting in a physical argument, my GF and I will spar verbally, make up, and then it will escalate and get physical .

    Cue the jazz music.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ray.vermette View Post
    Cue the jazz music.
    TMI! lol.

    Interestingly, though clearly the majority side with the GoPro guy, there's still lots of sympathy for the slow poke, which is exactly how I felt when I saw the video for the first time.

    It's like a case study in MTB Ethics 101!
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  36. #36
    I dd what you see there.
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    It's a good case study of road rage or even "entitlement" too.

    Because let's face it, we've all seen this kind of thing while driving our cars. Someone is cruising in the left lane on the highway and they run up on someone that insists on doing a much slower speed than them. They can't get around for whatever reason so they ride the bumper. Sometimes nasty words are exchanged, sometimes it becomes physical, sometimes nothing happens at all. What is right?

    Myself - I am a person of environment. If it's late and/or the road is clear in front of me, I'll open it up, but if there is traffic then I must take my place in the line, do what I can when I can and most of all just deal with it. I'm not entitled to the road (or trails) any more than anyone else is. I'm also a firm believer that yeah my truck is pretty fast (for a full size pick-up) and it'll destroy most Toyotas or Hondas, but there's always a faster car lurking somewhere that could destroy me because I'm not moving fast enough for it.
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by circlip View Post
    not my handiwork but...
    lol!

  38. #38
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    I would let the fast guy go at the first opportunity, I don't see why anybody would deliberately slow down traffic behind. And by the way I probably was lucky so far but I've never met a cyclist who wouldn't let me pass if I'm faster.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by scanny View Post
    I would let the fast guy go at the first opportunity, I don't see why anybody would deliberately slow down traffic behind. And by the way I probably was lucky so far but I've never met a cyclist who wouldn't let me pass if I'm faster.
    Me either, but anyone who has raced behind the Master Sport Men category, and tried to make a pass, has probably has a glimpse of what attitudes could have been at play.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by nspace View Post
    Me either, but anyone who has raced behind the Master Sport Men category, and tried to make a pass, has probably has a glimpse of what attitudes could have been at play.
    May I ask which age group of Master Sport Men is it that you are referring ?
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmeister View Post
    May I ask which age group of Master Sport Men is it that you are referring ?
    Whatever group used to start in front of the SS category. I am generalizing of course. Better part of the field was no issue, but there were more than a few, lets call them "edgy", riders in the field who would regularly impede passing, make no effort to let faster riders pass, and get lippy on more than one occasion.

  42. #42
    veldrijder
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    Same experience I had with the back end of the Senior Elite Women when I was racing Sr. Ex. The top women are easily faster than me, surely, but it was the back end of their field that was extremely defensive about not allowing others to pass even though they were in other categories.

    I recall one person racing me for the entrance of three singletrack sections in a row, only to hold me up. Totally valid tactic within your own category when you are trying to maximize a strength (pedalling) and minimize a weakness (singletrack). Not cool when you're doing it to people in a different race however. I got pretty vocal about this after the third time and had to force a pass where I didn't really want to. Nobody went down but it wasn't as clean as it should have been.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmeister View Post
    That's like suggesting it's okay to sit in the left lane of a 400 series highway doing 100km/h when it's totally not. Now there's no formal rules on the trail, but there is common etiquette which should be followed.

    I too have been both, and will most certainly get the heck out of the way when safe to do so.
    To use your analogy of 400 series highways, there are 3 lanes so various speeds can be accommodated, on single track not so much, more like a country lane. And being the speedster there is a certain amount of make the pass quick and as painless for slow poke as possible, rather than the pull over pokey I'm coming through. When I'm in the position of slow poke I will let people pass, but I don't immediately get out of their way either, I wait till it makes sense. If I got the heckle treatment like that guy I might not be as accommodating and good natured
    it tied the room together man!

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